AI and Creative, UGC, and the Evolution of Brand Storytelling

[00:00:00] Bijan: the introduction of AI has really lowered the barrier of entry. So if somebody needs new creative, they can go generate it in a couple of seconds. You know, with the right prompting. And so what does that do? I do think personalization is a big part of it, but there's a step before, which I think is like being really intentional with your creative.

[00:00:20] Bijan: And so like, if someone is going to pay for creative, go out and hire an agency or a partner or do that themselves and make the creative and not just lean on, like, let's say AI to do it. What are they hoping to accomplish that they couldn't have accomplished otherwise? And I think that goes back to the intentionality of it is how can I create something a little bit more meaningful that offers a deeper connection that allows someone to engage with my brand or my product or see a facet of it in a different way.

[00:01:17] Kelly: Hey everyone, Kelly McGuire, co founder of Bougie Day Digital. Excited to talk to today's guest.

[00:01:22] Todd: Everybody, this is Todd Kelly's partner and today we're going to talk to somebody about stuff that Kelly and I probably don't know how to create our way out of a paper bag. And that is creative. , and we have a person that's been around creative, not only, his direct sort of, application to it, but he's also married to a creative director.

[00:01:44] Todd: So I guess creative just circulates around his whole world. His house is beautiful. His clothes are beautiful. Everything he does is polished and perfect. and so he's got a great opinion on this. his name is Bishan Malikloo and not only is he versed in that, but he's versed in it across the lay, the layout and the landscape of creative and media.

[00:02:06] Todd: whether that be digital media, mostly I would say within social arenas or UGC arenas or influencer content. I think that's where you spent most of your time, Bijan, at least from a creative perspective in those areas. And so Kelly and I are going to grill you today on a whole bunch of stuff, in that topic, and, you can share with us your wisdom, about creative and media.

[00:02:32] Todd: hopefully some people will learn some stuff. So welcome Bijan.

[00:02:36] Bijan: Thank you. Yeah. I'm looking forward to that. That's quite the introduction.

[00:02:39] Bijan: I wish I could save that, for next time.

[00:02:41] Todd: you're a very design oriented person, I think in all aspects of your life. So who better to have, on here with an opinion about design and performance than you. so Kelly, why don't you, kick us off? I know you got a ton of questions. so why don't you kick us off? What do you want to know?

[00:02:59] Kelly: Yeah, it's a topic I'm really interested in talking about because there's such a crossover between media and what is required for media to be as effective as it needs to be. And a lot of that component and that variable is on the creative side. And I think it's something that we.

[00:03:15] Kelly: Run into a lot of hurdles and obstacles as well as opportunities. And so I guess just to kind of kick things off with John, I'd love to hear a little bit about how you think about the relationship between media and creative and how those two things. Work together. So importantly,

[00:03:33] Bijan: Yeah. I mean, creative and media have always been, The yin and the yang, working together, I think more recently it's become more and more important how closely connected they need to be. Because, before, you used to be able to run your campaigns really, really well and, whether or not the creative was as strong as you wanted it to be, a lot of the performance could be actually accomplished by how well you managed or set up those campaigns.

[00:04:00] Bijan: I think. More recently, and even more so moving forward, with how some of these platforms are set up, the creative just plays much, much bigger of a role. And so, I think moving forward, as we think of marketing and performance marketing specifically, like creative is the number one lever that you can pull.

[00:04:18] Kelly: yeah, I would agree with that. And I think that opens up there. There's so many avenues we can go down and I think I'm going to try and open up a few, but just at a higher level, I've had the chance to work with you on some, creative projects. And I know with Todd set up, you have some exposure to both what I would consider both sides of the spectrum.

[00:04:34] Kelly: 1, being the really robust, high investment, really detailed, creative branding project. And then on the other side is a lot of times where we get stuck, which is a lot scrappier, a lot more affordable, a lot more cost effective type thing. give me your thoughts around how each of those ends of the spectrum work really what it takes for either a big brand to really be able to wrap their heads around versus a scrappy brand that doesn't have a lot of resources and has to get really creative.

[00:05:00] Kelly: In no pun intended, but creative in the way that they actually get assets put together, in order to really go to market with something that's going to break through and is going to connect with their audiences. Cause I find that really interesting when you go from multi million dollar creative investments to maybe you're lucky if you have thousands of dollars, but all of it has to come together into producing business outcomes relatively similar environments.

[00:05:23] Bijan: Yeah, I mean, it's a good question. I like to think about it from like the brand side versus the product side. And typically brand marketing and messaging is a little bit more polished. that's typically where we might go to market with a full production asset that, um, isn't necessarily product specific, but it's kind of hitting home on what the brand stands for the vision.

[00:05:46] Bijan: Um, And as you start getting into like product specific messaging, that's where I think you can have a little bit more fun with it. So that's where it doesn't necessarily need to be a full production. It can be more UGC light. It could be more, social native life, for example, if it's going to air in a social environment.

[00:06:02] Bijan: And so I think that's 1 way to think about it. Another way to think about it is just like, what's, what makes sense creatively to come from the brand's voice versus from an external source. And so, brand can only talk about how great they are for so long or in so many applications.

[00:06:21] Bijan: And so a lot of the things that, we typically look at as motivators, some of them are like authenticity, relevancy, or validation. Those types of things, they typically come from external sources. So like influencers or creators, like you mentioned, or other kind of publishers and outlets.

[00:06:38] Bijan: that's another way to think about it as well as, what do you actually produce as the brand versus where do you lean on maybe other partners to create content for you that, that's still, fits in terms of, Maybe the look and feel that you're going after, but, has a different perspective or identity towards it

[00:06:53] Kelly: Yeah. I think that's a really interesting crossover with, some of where you play, which is, The importance of that third party validation, that social, that UGC side of things, and. And what it takes to be able to source that type of content, to be able to properly manage it and utilize it in the process that goes in there.

[00:07:10] Kelly: How have you kind of seen the utilization of external resources, mainly influencer and creators to absorb and properly tell brand stories? and how painful or easy do you find that process to, to make it effective for different types of brands?

[00:07:28] Bijan: I think this is where it started. And I think a lot of times we get stuck thinking about it in this way, but thinking about like influencers and creators as what's the organic value that they can drive. So a creator is going to post about our brand, like how many people did that action or bought that product from their post and, there's whole awareness conversation and their reach and their following and all that engagement side too, but I think that's still kind of, and not outdated, but a more traditional way to look at it. I think more of where we've seen a lot of traction more recently is. Is how can the creators bring something to the table that I, as a brand can't.

[00:08:05] Bijan: And so that goes back to like, what are the things that they can do as far as incentivizing or motivating a customer or a client that as a brand, I can't do or it's harder for me to do. And so when we typically look at those kinds of partnerships, we're usually looking at it as a way to engage with our audience in a different way, in a way that, is going to provide some sort of takeaway that, we're not currently getting across in our messaging.

[00:08:31] Bijan: so I think when you look at about it that way, you're not just looking at, okay, I paid this crater X dollars and it turned into X sales or X metrics, but. maybe if I put ad dollars behind that, create a greater post, it did X percent better than that. Same kind of similar messaging coming from for me as the brand.

[00:08:51] Bijan: And I think when you start to look at it that way, it kind of opens up another conversation in terms of how you can approach creators. and the 2nd, I would say, like. Emerging kind of trend in terms of working with craters is a lot on the commerce side. so in terms of distributed commerce, so, we see a lot that discovery happens through creators.

[00:09:10] Bijan: And so if if that's the case, then how can we simplify that experience? So if somebody is seeing a new product or brand, from a creator's post, how can we make it as. Easy and seamless as possible to actually purchase that if they want it. so that really aligns with kind of the trend that we're seeing with, social commerce and like tick tock shops and Instagram shopping, for example, where there's kind of whole commerce ecosystems being developed where you can actually shop from craters directly.

[00:09:38] Todd: I'm going to jump in. I have. question related to what you just talked about, and I have a totally different question. So the short question related to what you just talked about is, do you think brand could advertise and sell its products without ever having to do anything other than creator led marketing?

[00:09:55] Todd: Meaning whether it's a mature brand or a startup brand, do we really need anything else than other people telling us about a product that's great and why you should buy it? Like, could that just be the only thing an advertiser does? In your mind

[00:10:10] Bijan: There are some advertisers that spend 0. Advertising through their own voice or identity. Yeah. Like all their ad dollars might go. If they have ad dollars, they would just go towards promoting like other people's posts. And usually, those brands like to say, well, like. We don't run any ads, and there's kind of like a prideness to that, but I think looking at it strictly from the lens of ad dollars versus non ad dollars is probably the wrong lens to look at it.

[00:10:38] Bijan: Like, I think, what's the investment and what's the impact that we're going for? Like, whether you're, you're Putting those dollars into ads for paying a PR firm to get a bunch of press hits for you. At the end of the day, like what's the impact or the outcome that you're looking for? And I think there are different pathways to get there.

[00:10:55] Bijan: And so I do think a lot of brands do do that. And I think it's possible and it can be quite successful, but I think only looking at it through that lens, is a little bit limiting because you're not looking at, you're not. Looking at it from the step above that, which is what's the impact I'm trying to create and what are the tools that I can use to get there?

[00:11:12] Todd: Yeah. but I questioned whether or not, could you actually do it? hypothetically, I don't know. Once upon a time we talked to a new e bike startup and they didn't really have enough money to spend on their brand and advertising, but they had some influencer creator people that were creating all this content and talking about their e bike and how cool it was model.

[00:11:31] Todd: And I was like, I wonder if they could just never do anything other than have a team of creators talking about their product and their brand and would that be enough? To drive enough product sales that they really wouldn't need to do anything else. Like, could that be the only channel that they rely on?

[00:11:48] Todd: And I don't know the answer to

[00:11:49] Kelly: think it's a risky proposition, Todd, just not to go down the tangent, but as you know, I'm a big, watch a lot of shark tank and I like that show. And every time I've ever seen a brand come on and talk about the sales spikes that they go through being driven by creator events, it always gets shot down really quickly by the sharks because they immediately suggest that it's not, it doesn't show brand maturity and it's something that you're beholden to.

[00:12:10] Kelly: Circumstances and market pressures that you don't have control over. So I think it can be very effective, but to rely solely on that and not build an owned marketing engine, I think if there's a level of brand and company maturity to that, that I think that represents a lot of risk too.

[00:12:24] Todd: I agree. I just, it would be a fascinating experience. All right. So I have a much bigger question to unpack, around the idea of creative. historically 20 years ago. advertising campaigns started with a creative brief at the creative agency, which generally informed what the TV spot was gonna be, and everything sort of cascaded out from that.

[00:12:44] Todd: And then the media plan was created on where that was gonna, be placed and bought and so on and so forth. Now I think things are different. I think data almost comes before the creative brief or should. And so my question to you is how much. legacy research, persona development, all of these other things need to go into thinking about creative and developing creative.

[00:13:07] Todd: versus looking at data first and going, well, the data already says this, so we should wrap the creative around that and then go to market with that. I struggle with how much of the legacy creative process still exists or needs to exist, and in the world that we're in now, where there's so much data available that you can sort of mine that data in advance of trying to us like.

[00:13:32] Todd: The old days, creative directors would be like, well, we think our product or brand is this and our value profit. Our USP is this. And so we're going to create a commercial that shows people do it. Like it was. A lot of times it was just what they thought was cool and it really wasn't anchored in Maybe more real time data or things like that So I guess the big question is how does creative get created today?

[00:13:54] Todd: And in what you would think are the best case scenarios

[00:13:58] Bijan: Yeah, I mean, I've got two answers to this question. The first one's a little bit of a funny anecdote slash story. we asked a similar question if you remember back at, the agency prior to this, it was interactive day in San Diego, 2017. There was a whiteboard. And we had people vote at interactive day and it was like does the creative concept An idea come first or does the marketing side the research side come first and people voted And it was almost a 50 50 split back then I think, things have evolved since then a little bit, I think traditionally, like, you said, they were a little bit more in silos. And so that leads me to like my second point, which is, I think things are much more fluid now. I don't see it as a clear handoff. I see. The best work being done when, all three teams, your creative team, your analytics or BI team and your marketing team, like all kind of our strategy team, like all kind of coming to the table in those early stages, because the research and those insights, let's say, are going to inform the strategic direction informed by some of the business side and the marketing needs are going to Are you going to drive the creative direction, and the application of that in terms of bringing that to life through the marketing lens and the execution.

[00:15:13] Bijan: still seeing that entire way through. And so I think the most exciting work now moving forward is going to be the connectivity between all of those different phases that typically happened separately or, distinctly, like there was different phases and now I see them almost happening, like in tandem where we can actually iterate on that stuff live.

[00:15:32] Bijan: And I know that's something that we've talked about a bunch. But that's really, I think what excites me moving forward is the ability to have all of that happen and think through like, what is that, what are all the touch points that the customer, the client's going to have with this big idea, this marketing campaign, et cetera, how is that going to come to life and programmatic and social in search environments, for example, or even offline and connecting that back to digital. And so I do think there's an opportunity there, and likely where I would say the more impactful work is going to be done is, is leading with some of those, things in the forefront.

[00:16:07] Todd: a part b to this and kelly. I know he's got other stuff. He wants to jump on So part b to that is what's the shelf life today? Of a creative concept or a campaign, given the stuff we have to deal with is how well is it performing? ? every advertiser wants to know, well, how well is my creative performing?

[00:16:25] Todd: Which creative is performing the best? We get asked all this stuff all the time. Is it a male or a female? Is it blue or orange? Is it, you know, percent off or cash off? Like, whatever it is, how How sustainable or what's the longevity or shelf life do you, do you think or see nowadays relative to you come up with this creative concept in the brief and you produce assets and all this stuff?

[00:16:49] Todd: How long is that good for?

[00:16:54] Bijan: I think, you know, people were used to. Like you said, like doing a big, let's say a big shoot, a big campaign, let's say it's an annual campaign and there are a bunch of takedowns from that. And we're A. V. testing a lot of different things, um, and I think more so now, just in terms of some of the way the platforms have evolved or, you know, you still want to keep things fresh, but you're disincentivized from making.

[00:17:23] Bijan: Updates or changes too quickly, I think it's less important to AB test like variations and it's more important to be testing, different value propositions or solutions. when we think of creative and we think of the different iterations or takedowns that we might be doing, It's not, it's testing different concepts, essentially, rather than testing different variations.

[00:17:47] Bijan: And I think that kind of changes the onus on kind of how I'll steal it might get because, it wasn't like you're going to, put in a couple of variations, see how they do take a couple of them out, introduce a couple more and see how those do. And just kind of do that throughout the year.

[00:18:03] Bijan: I think now it's like, how do I find out what my customers care about? Who my customers are like, some of our targeting, for example, isn't as specific now, then maybe it was. Five, six years ago, we might go more broad on the targeting on a search or social environment now, for example, lean, lean more heavy into some of the best practices.

[00:18:23] Bijan: So that means that our creative needs to speak to our audience, the creative, they say, is the new targeting. And so in that sense, what are those creative variations or themes or concepts that have, The different things that I'm curious about that I want to see what resonates with find more about that and then build upon that.

[00:18:43] Bijan: if something's working really well, that concept that I might, my audience really cares about this. How do I exponentially go and make that a deeper connection or impact from there. And so iterative because it's not necessarily something that can always be done in advance, you have to be flexible and nimble enough to be able to take those learnings and then break more things from that.

[00:19:06] Bijan: so generally, I would say kind of like a quarterly cadence in terms of actually creation of new content in terms of swapping them out. I mean, it can be as frequently as like monthly, but too frequently is also a detriment because of some of the, like the learning phases and stuff.

[00:19:23] Todd: Yep.

[00:19:24] Kelly: Yeah, I think that gets really interesting to think about it and it feels almost like it's changed a little bit and you said use that phrase that's been coming up with this all the time where creatives the new targeting and it's interesting because I remember not that long ago, so much of the conversation was around personalization of ads and matching targeting.

[00:19:43] Kelly: The ad and the creative to the people that are seeing it and making sure that you're identifying their needs and their journey off of that. And it feels like that's changed quite a bit around focusing more on what makes the brand or the product or what you're trying to promote unique and valuable.

[00:20:00] Kelly: And the systems will then go take that value proposition and find the person that it, it matters to and match and. iterate and learn that way, which is, interesting. And I think it becomes even more interesting when you open up what is rapidly becoming a part of the conversation in creative, which is artificial intelligence and developmental components that that can bring to the table and generative AI.

[00:20:21] Kelly: And the fact that, where do we start to blur the lines between even people making these decisions versus. Creating more frameworks and components that mix and match into different messaging that meets it. And I think that idea starts to really open up. I think what comes up in a lot more of our conversations, which is less about personalization of messaging, but we talk a lot about the funnel and the user journey and.

[00:20:46] Kelly: Being able to tell the right story and connect the right information at the right point in someone's journey so that you can move them into the next step along that. And I think that becomes really powerful when you think about how quickly do you need to be iterating and how does AI play a role in the ability to both learn who's matching it?

[00:21:04] Kelly: What that what behavior shifting and how to adapt to that quickly. I know I laid a lot out there, but I think that's really where the head where my head goes is how the landscapes are shifting how AI shifting that landscape approach that we have to adapt to capitalize on the opportunity that new world brings.

[00:21:21] Bijan: Yeah. I mean, you're absolutely right. the introduction of AI has really lowered the barrier of entry. So if somebody needs new creative, they can go generate it in a couple of seconds. You know, with the right prompting. And so what does that do? Um, I do think personalization is a big part of it, but there's a step before, which I think is like being really intentional with your creative.

[00:21:43] Bijan: And so like, if someone is going to pay for creative, go out and hire an agency or a partner or do that themselves and make the creative and not just lean on, like, let's say AI to do it. What are they hoping to accomplish that they couldn't have accomplished otherwise? And I think that goes back to the intentionality of it is how can I create something a little bit more meaningful that offers a deeper connection that allows someone to engage with my brand or my product or see a facet of it in a different way.

[00:22:13] Bijan: And so when you start to look at it through that lens, I think are. Obligation or objective from a creative or even a marketing perspective changes, it creates a connection between creative and marketing even more. So, because, it's not just about greater for the sake of creative. Now, if it was, you could probably generate it, creative.

[00:22:33] Bijan: Is serving a purpose. we can validate a lot of that through the marketing side.

[00:22:38] Todd: okay. Follow up to that. again. Sort of legacy ways. Maybe people are still doing it this way, but we used to use focus groups a lot, right? To test creative, to see if the look and feel and the message and those kinds of things would resonate. , that would validate a concept or something. So in your experience right now with everything from UGC to just brand created creative to AI generated creative, what sort of metrics or other key performance indicators.

[00:23:07] Todd: Do you believe are worthy? Of knowing how creative is actually working and, resonating with people, because a lot of times now I'd say I'd argue focus groups, those kinds of things don't get done in advance, right? We just come up with something. We push it out and we test it. So what are you looking for?

[00:23:25] Todd: Relative to the creative and maybe even the media side of things, the distribution side for. How do you judge it? Right? Because a lot of clients always ask us, well, how do I know if it's a creative or the media or one's working better? So any thoughts on that?

[00:23:38] Bijan: Yeah, I think there's a couple of ways you can think about that. There's to your point, there's like, we've created a bunch of things. We think they're all great. We don't know which one people like more. Let's test it. Right. And that's kind of traditionally what we were talking about. let's run them all and see what sticks.

[00:23:52] Bijan: we have some ideas, and we want to get some insights into, what might resonate the most, what are people responding to the most before we go out there. And so love the idea of lift studies and like holdout opportunities there.

[00:24:03] Bijan: We can really kind of have a controlled kind of test and learn environment. But I do think even before like getting to that stage, there's an idea what do people actually care about, gathering the insights and the learning. And so like you used to think of like focus groups where you have a bunch of questions set and people respond to them or, there's a program for it.

[00:24:25] Bijan: I think the most exciting thing now, if, if you look at some of the. The platforms that exist now is they're even AI led. And so there's like this group think component to it where it takes responses from these people and it asks other people what they think about it. And it kind of creates and morphs this perspective, if you're a healthcare company, and you want to know like, what are the things that are. most valuable to people, you can do something like that. and then uncover insights that like you would have never thought about. So you're not validating things you already thought about.

[00:24:56] Bijan: It's like creating novel concepts from source, from the community on what they care about, and then that informs what you end up creating. And I think that is a really interesting kind of direction for things to head in because it's almost like you're able to get that info up front and validate that before even start creating.

[00:25:15] Bijan: And I think that. Then makes everything you do after that from a testing perspective, even more powerful.

[00:25:21] Todd: right, Kelly, you got a wrap up question and then I'll close it out.

[00:25:24] Kelly: Yeah, I mean, I think we've said a lot here and I think it's really important that we've highlighted importance and the relationship that exists. And so where it takes my head Is how do you see all of this really coming to life? what does it take to do this the right way in the new world, particularly as it pertains to the roles that the media resources or a creative shopper or creative team and the client themselves.

[00:25:49] Kelly: All have to play. How do they work together? Who? How does that value come together? Who's responsible for poking and prodding and pushing the envelope? Or what does communication have to look like? Or collaboration have to look like for a really good working environment to take advantage of this and not have it be fragmented and sort of disconnected in your mind or your experience.

[00:26:10] Bijan: Yeah, I mean, I go back to the promise or the relationship that we have with a lot of clients, which is, we're really diving into the business side of things to figure out, what do they really need? There's what they're looking for. And then there's a step back from that, which is like, well, how did they get there?

[00:26:26] Bijan: what's going to actually provide the most impact or value to their business at the stage that they're at. What that Morphs into is, that like, when we're working with clients, we're providing solutions rather than services. And that solution can be an investment in a lot of different areas.

[00:26:42] Bijan: It could be in their paid media, it could be in something else. And so, looking at the creative investment in the media investment, in my opinion, separately, counterintuitive to what they're trying to accomplish with the outcome that they're looking for. So I think the way that we're going to be looking at things moving forward is more of a holistic investment.

[00:27:01] Bijan: And if we can look at it as a holistic investment, then we can start tapping into these different solutions or services, simultaneously to accomplish that outcome. So if a client came to us with the media budget of a million dollars, for example, we can figure out the percentage of that, we need to actually put into creative.

[00:27:21] Bijan: Optimization or production or assets to actually make our media perform 20, 30 percent better, or vice versa. so, I think looking at it as the holistic investment, rather than this is my budget for creative. This is my budget for media or marketing, I think is moving forward because Ultimately, they're both trying to accomplish the same outcome. And if we can bring those two pieces together and iterate on them in real time, then we're going to be able to make both of them work more fluidly and, it'll be a more connected experience.

[00:27:53] Todd: So says you, so you just, you just told all the creative and media shops. They all need to come to the sandbox together and play nice. that would be great to see. Hope that happens. well,

[00:28:04] Bijan: maybe they don't. And then we can just, have that as our, Value proposition, you know, our superpower. Yeah,

[00:28:11] Todd: we all know that the three of us do this on a daily basis. We contribute to creative roundtables and strategy and collabs with our clients. they do rely heavily on. Our side of the equation relative to data and distribution of creative through the media channels that we specialize in.

[00:28:30] Todd: And so we're often invited to that conversation early and often. And I will agree with you that, when that has happened in a group collaboration at a very early stage, we see the very best business outcomes of those investments. Um, and so I think that's, that's the proof in the pudding. Don't need to say anything more about that.

[00:28:50] Todd: thank you for all of your creative wisdoms. I'm sure this is, what you get to learn a lot of from your experiences and the social arenas and certainly being married to a creative director. I bet you get a lot of exposure. Um, how the proper world of creative is to be done. so I'm going to wrap up and I'm gonna ask you a question that I always ask Kelly, or for the most part, try to always remember to ask Kelly, since we're talking about creative.

[00:29:17] Todd: Can you remember the very last ad that you saw?

[00:29:21] Bijan: Oh

[00:29:22] Todd: Yeah. see how good advertising works. Every time I ask somebody this question, they stop and go, huh? No, can't remember

[00:29:29] Bijan: the last ad that I actually saw the one that I resonated

[00:29:32] Todd: last ad that you can remember the last ad that captured your attention. And you can remember and recall right now and say, I just saw an ad recently for something and it caught my attention.

[00:29:43] Bijan: If you're going to love this, it was Ubly.

[00:29:45] Todd: Hey,

[00:29:46] Bijan: getting hammered by our Ubly ads everywhere. so Tracy, if you're listening to this, shout out, you and to Ubly. but yeah, all over Hulu and Netflix and, and YouTube, like all of our environments, which is really

[00:30:01] Kelly: you to buy their Valentine's chocolate. It's Valentine's Day.

[00:30:04] Bijan: right.

[00:30:05] Todd: Well, listeners, go on, buy some ublee chocolate because it's pretty darn good. thank you, John. It's always fun to talk creative with you. It's a conversation and a subject matter that we are going to continue to put more to the forefront of what we do at Voucher Day. because I think we're learning that.

[00:30:22] Todd: Media, we just can't be responsible for just the media distribution part of things. If we don't have a play on the creative side, the performance creative, we're just not able to fully complete sort of the full investment strategy and, and really produce the best business outcomes. So, I love the fact that there's more of this happening and more to talk about.

[00:30:44] Todd: Thanks for sharing today. And, We'll have you back on again soon, probably to get maybe more into generative AI and creative and how that is impacting, or upending a lot of what's going on out there. So I think there's more to talk about there. Thanks joining and we'll talk to you again soon.

[00:31:01] Bijan: Yeah. I'm looking forward to it. Thank you.