The Realities of Agency Selection and Vertical Specialization

[00:00:00] Kelly: I'd much rather be a big fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond, because I'm going to matter more and people are going to think about me more.

[00:00:06] Kelly: My business is going to keep them up at night there's going to be curiosity. There's going to be things that come to the table. That I think matter more. And again, that talent being applied uniquely to me and my needs right here. And now I think is always going to be a lot more valuable than I did something five years ago for a client, kind of like you, and I'm just going to do it for you and hope it works again, not saying it can't, but I don't think there's anything inherently more valuable in that than trying to look at the actual.

[00:00:34] Kelly: Engagement that you're bringing on over this. Hey everyone, Kelly Maguire with Vuja Dé Digital, excited to get into today's topic.

[00:01:07] Todd: Hey, happy Monday. It's Todd, Juneau, Kelly's partner. And today we're going to kick around this topic that you and I got into it on last Thursday. When I challenged you about the idea of agencies. needing to be specialized or brands and clients, companies searching for an agency. And let's say you're, looking for an agency with experience in automotive or tourism or pharma or some specialty.

[00:01:38] Todd: And I challenged you that there is wisdom. And experienced gained from specializing in certain verticals. And you said, nah, I can do that stuff in just a couple of days. I don't need all that specialty to be able to figure that out. And I think the way were differentiating between act of media planning and buying itself, but then the act of being. Able to strategize and come up with things that are relative to that, niche or specialty industry. But the application of those things are different and why. You don't necessarily need to be that and so I challenge for you in this conversation is if anybody listens to this, that might be a specialist is to Convince your argument, put a convincing argument out there, how you could without experience and say, a particular category, like, let's say we got an RFP for a tourism account or an automotive account. We have no experience running prior tourism or automotive campaigns. How would you approach that in a way that would allow you to demonstrate expertise having never worked in that category?

[00:02:42] Todd: Because as we know, we've by lots of search consultants. Oh, they want an agency. That's got experience in case studies in this industry. Well, that seems to matter. But why does that matter? Why do you think that matters? And how do you differentiate and counter that?

[00:02:55] Kelly: Yeah, think it's a topic that's interesting to go around because I can't say I don't see the other side of the argument. It's just one that I struggle with when I think about we really get hired to do, or we should be getting hired to do. , which is less about capability. And I say that from very much a media buying lens, which I know that we talk about that being sort of the last component of the work that we do, but the reality is, is ultimately we get entrusted with investing dollars to create market outcomes, that meet our client goals.

[00:03:30] Kelly: And for me. The idea of capability or specialization or experience in a field gets less important I know everyone likes to sell the secret sauce or the latest thing or this, access to stuff. But the reality is, is just about everything. If not everything that meaningfully can be done in the media buying space.

[00:03:51] Kelly: Either everyone has access to a lot of it is endemic and straight to the platforms or if it's worth doing or applying You can access it. You can license that somewhere. You can work with a partner for your data access. targeting capabilities, all these types of things are accessible. So for me, it's less about hiring someone with some secret capability that no one else has.

[00:04:13] Kelly: Because I realistically don't think that that exists. This is where kind of it crystallized to me that you should be hiring personality And not capability because it's not about what you can do. It's really about what you will do. And that's the hardest thing to dig through and understand what it is that you are engaging with when you hire an agency or any kind of marketing role because it comes down to you're engaging and hiring someone who Is going to be curious and passionate and really drive and understand your business and go that extra mile to dig in and to look at things you know, you don't just want someone who's like, well, I did this for three other clients.

[00:04:57] Kelly: I'm just going to rinse and repeat. I'm going to follow this playbook. I'm going to do the I'm going to check off this list and I'm going to buy this service. I mean, you can do that. I don't think that that's a valuable engagement. What is a valuable engagement to me is You understand what investing in media is meant to accomplish for a client and you can break down the variables and the components that go into that in a critical thinking way and come up with a plan and a strategy and a why that really knows what you're buying, what you're looking for and what you're going to pivot into or out of based on those outcomes.

[00:05:31] Kelly: And again, that's the personality type of it. Are you getting a team that knows how to go out and find? Specialty data providers knows how to have conversations with platforms to really challenge capabilities knows how to critically think about ad formats and the story connection that you're making with audience and the user journey that you're going to drop them through what you're trying to do with media.

[00:05:55] Kelly: That's not necessarily industry specialized, You are trying to find a target audience. Of which there's a certain amount of capability that goes into that using data, using platforms, using ad formats, you are trying to deliver a message that resonates, that meets them where they have a need and will be noticeable and engaging.

[00:06:14] Kelly: And you're trying to drop them into an experience that is going to change their behavior. They're going to learn something. They're going to click on something. They're going to fill out a form. They're going to buy something and you're applying analytics and data capture to understand what those outcomes are.

[00:06:27] Kelly: And then you're creating a closed loop of re engagement on that. If you're not getting those outcomes, are you remarketing? Are you re engaging? Are you sequentially messaging? Are you bringing them through? You can apply that same approach fairly agnostic to whatever industry that you are looking for.

[00:06:42] Kelly: But what you can't change is the willingness to dive in and really do the work to understand the unique needs of any given client and their industry and their category. And what it's going to take to deliver messaging and invest dollars to change that human behavior. And to me, I would rather hire someone who understands the work that goes into understanding and crafting that strategy than simply hiring someone who just happens to have said they've done it before for another client that's kind of like you or in a similar space.

[00:07:14] Kelly: Now, again, I say that from a media lens. I do see specialization having a lot of value. In other parts of marketing, like the creative messaging, maybe the web development, maybe some of those things where there are nuances to that. But the reality is, is even if you don't start with, again, you used an example, automotive, I have run automotive campaigns. Well, let's say I never had, it would not be very hard or take me very long to go find all of the best. Automotive focused technology platforms and data partners and everything that's out there. And as long as I understood what it took to both find them and evaluate them and pick the right ones that fit the strategy I came up with.

[00:07:54] Kelly: You're not going to lose anything from my lack of right today knowledge versus someone who's been doing it for a similar client. What you will lose is if I've done this for a bunch of other clients in this field and I'm just going to assume you're the same as them and I'm going to try to do exactly for you what I've done for them and hope that inherently just works.

[00:08:13] Kelly: That's a much worse outcome. Because it's not unique. It's not understanding your position in the marketplace, your challenges, and it's not doing

[00:08:21] Kelly: anything beyond a buying service.

[00:08:22] Todd: that's not needed. Maybe that's the learning curve problem, if you're an agency that specializes in automotive or pharma or whatever, and you get hired by an automotive or a pharma brand. They're going to assume you've already done all this work for all these other clients, and so the learning curve is less, you can get the results quicker for them, Wouldn't that be logic?

[00:08:40] Kelly: mean, it could be and you might get lucky. Maybe if you are a brand and you pick up someone else's playbook, it'll just work for you. I don't think that's the way things work, worked a month ago, a year ago, 10 years ago for a client with a different learning curve, a different area may not work for you, why do brands, companies, clients, or whatever, why do they go looking for agencies that specialize in their particular field? what do you think they think is the advantage to that?

[00:09:07] Kelly: I'm going to use the same terminology. I think a lot of people mistakenly, not mistakenly, but in my opinion, mistakenly higher capability over personality. I think it's more about what an agency says they do versus who's actually going to come on board and do it.

[00:09:21] Kelly: And the structure and the engagement and the way that they approach the relationship and the engagement. Again, I'm much more focused on. Who's going to work on my behalf and the way they're going to approach it and the way I'm going to matter to them. That's why I say in a lot of these things, I'd much rather be a big fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond, because I'm going to matter more and people are going to think about me more.

[00:09:38] Kelly: My business is going to keep them up at night there's going to be curiosity. There's going to be things that come to the table. That I think matter more. And again, that talent being applied uniquely to me and my needs right here. And now I think is always going to be a lot more valuable than I did something five years ago for a client, kind of like you, and I'm just going to do it for you and hope it works again, not saying it can't, but I don't think there's anything inherently more valuable in that than trying to look at the actual.

[00:10:07] Kelly: Engagement that you're bringing on over this. Now, I know that it's very hard to evaluate that in the hiring process. It's a lot easier to say, well, if they did, if they found success for a similar client like me, then maybe that means that they should be able to bring me that success. could go down a rabbit hole of why I think that is a bad way to make decisions, Because I mean, we've talked about this before, the idea of the case study or the big win or what people say they accomplished for other people. There's a lot of shadiness that goes on there. I mean, we've told the stories about taking over clients where we saw case studies that were touting how great it was.

[00:10:45] Kelly: But then we heard the reality of the sentiment and the actual structures and some of the problems that went in. So always made this joke before. No one ever put out a mediocre case study, Your case study is going to make it sound like the greatest thing you ever did in the world.

[00:10:58] Kelly: And so to assume that's what you're going to get just because. Even if it's true, let alone if it's embellished, it's somehow magically going to just work for you. Inherently. I don't know if I buy into that as being the best decision point to make on what you're getting.

[00:11:13] Todd: I still think there's this belief that if you develop the wisdom and knowledge of working in a particular specialty area, that somehow is going to be beneficial. For example, maybe B2B tech software, if I'm a B2B tech software company, I'm going to want an agency that's demonstrated successful experience marketing B2B software, where I believe they've already found all the right data partners figured out the proper account based marketing or ABM sort of roadmap and plan that they've figured out how to map the analytics to the journey, because it's a long, it's a year long decision cycle.

[00:11:55] Todd: why wouldn't that be attractive to me to versus an agency that said, we've never run SAS B2B software campaigns, but it doesn't matter because we know this, this and this, and that's all that matters.

[00:12:07] Kelly: mean, this is kind of what we talked about, right? What is the real advantage to it? what is it that that brings to the table? Again, I'm not arguing from the creative standpoint No, let's break it down to the media, the media analytics side of

[00:12:20] Todd: things like

[00:12:20] Todd: that.

[00:12:20] Kelly: So, so what is the advantage, right?

[00:12:22] Kelly: Okay. You say, know about the data partners that exist again. if we're any good at our jobs, which I would argue we are, we know the platforms that exist. We know who's out there and worst case scenario. And this, I'm, saying this a little bit tongue in cheek. It's a Google search away.

[00:12:37] Kelly: It's not that hard to say B to B data partners and then look at the list and say, okay, who do I know who can reach out to and go through? That's a worst case scenario doing what we do. Cool.

[00:12:45] Todd: Okay, hold

[00:12:46] Kelly: job is to know the landscape.

[00:12:48] Todd: on. Put a pin in that. Let me challenge that. Let's say you do that. And let's say there's five data companies out there that that they're professing. They have the best, audience data for B2B, SAS, ABM, marketing or whatever, there's five of them. Okay, now you or somebody has to go vet out, go through the demos and vet out five different data providers were subject to them selling us on why their product is.

[00:13:17] Todd: Better than the other 4 competitors and somehow we have to then discern between those. We can only test 1 or 2. We've got to try and then now we have to test them and those tests could fail because the test has to be able to fail. And then we have to move on to the next 1. And that learning curve is what I'm arguing.

[00:13:33] Todd: I'm a client that's in that space. Wouldn't I want an agency that says. We've already tested all five of the best B2B SAS data providers out there. We know which two work best and we don't have to

[00:13:44] Kelly: think you have flawed logic right there. I actually see exactly what you've described as the pitfall of going down a pre thing. Because you're, falling into a pre assumption that worked for something else. If there are five data partners that exist, they exist for a reason. Each of them has some kind of offering or value or unique thing that is in there, why they're alive.

[00:14:03] Kelly: There's not just one of those five that is the best partner and the other four shouldn't exist or can't do anything different. So I think coming in with that fresh perspective and understanding what am I trying to achieve and knowing how to vet them out, how to have the right conversations, how to push the boundaries on how do you fit my vision that I've built unique for this client, not the rinse and repeat thing that has worked for me in years past, but the thing that I've crafted thinking uniquely about this client and caring about what I'm trying to do.

[00:14:30] Kelly: With this client's dollars and then working out which one should I test? What order should I go through? What should I line up as a pivot and a secondary test? Being able to have that fresh perspective and tackling it from that point of curiosity and passion and care. That I think is more valuable than we did a test a couple years ago.

[00:14:48] Kelly: We like this partner and so we're going to, force that in there and we're just going to hope that that's the right one and we don't care about anything else. I would argue that the freshness again, operating from the basis of the people doing that have to have a certain level of expertise and passion and drive.

[00:15:04] Kelly: You do have to believe that someone will follow through on the promise, but as long as you believe you are getting that someone that bespoke approach of someone thinking about your business and doing it, I would say the fresh perspective and the overarching entering the market. Without predetermined assumptions is actually more valuable than just this work for them.

[00:15:23] Kelly: So we're going to make sure it works for you.

[00:15:25] Todd: okay. What about, in our past, five or six years ago, maybe five to eight years ago, we just got run through the gauntlet of all the CBD brands being launched. And there was a learning curve about what could or could not be advertised. From a CBD or THC sort of level regulatory, thing that we had to figure out.

[00:15:51] Todd: After going through half a dozen of those brands, the next three that came to us, we were like, we know exactly what it takes to advertise your product and service because we had already done all that lead up and due diligence work to figure that out. That's sort of what I'm arguing is we got to a point in a particular category where we understood the farming of it.

[00:16:13] Todd: We understood all kinds of stuff that there's no way you could know. And just a matter of a couple of Google searches.

[00:16:19] Kelly: Sure. That, made it easier for us. It shortened our timeline, but again,

[00:16:24] Todd: But isn't that the timeline too that they're paying for?

[00:16:27] Kelly: I mean, not usually, I mean, obviously when you're going through it, yeah, look, if you're a client, you need your campaign to launch in two weeks. Yeah. You might need someone that already has that experience. I would argue that most searches for a partnership that should be long, long term and you plan on being there for years and years.

[00:16:43] Kelly: Should be a little bit more forward looking than that in terms of the engagement. So to your point, using your example, the very first one of those that came to us, it didn't matter that we didn't have that knowledge right then and there. We had the curiosity and the understanding of what we would be hired to do.

[00:16:57] Kelly: And we had the expertise to know how to go into the market and learn and understand what the right things to do work. Now, again, maybe, maybe this is an area where matters again, if they had needed to be into, into market and hire us and be live in a week. Might not have worked out, but as long as you have that, you know, that month or two advance notice, if I'm going to hire you on board, you go through the brief that should give you the ability.

[00:17:19] Kelly: If you, if you're hiring talented, skilled people with experience that understands the overall picture, that expertise should be able to be applied fairly agnostic to category. Again, if you have the intelligence to do some research to do some learning and to understand that information. At a bigger picture, marketing is a fairly universal thing in terms of how do we use dollars to expose message to targeted people to change behavior.

[00:17:46] Kelly: That is the simplest breakdown that you then apply specifics to based on the category and the objective and the client you're going after.

[00:17:53] Todd: Okay, so argument stands that specialization isn't necessarily required. It can be easily acquired in a very short period of time that fuels the capability. Because like said, what I love that you said was, it's not what people can do for you, it's what they will do for

[00:18:11] Todd: you.

[00:18:11] Kelly: think it all comes down to that. It's the people and believing what you're really going to get versus the shiny presentation that gets you on the bottom line. And then who knows what you get after the fact, I mean, I think how much it is where you have this experience of a, category and experience, you're probably not going to get a single human being that actually had that experience, actually working on your business.

[00:18:32] Kelly: It's probably going to be all new people or fresh people anyway,

[00:18:35] Todd: Well, the assumption is there's some leadership personnel that are and I'm going to use this as a segue into sort of taking a pivot in this conversation. The assumption is that there's leadership at the top. That's going to guide the people down below and it's their experience and their wisdom.

[00:18:48] Todd: That will will be the backing of that guidance that will make the work happen, but. you've said has talked about why it's what somebody will do, and the time, energy, and effort, and the mindfulness, and the thoughtfulness, and the curiosity, and the eagerness, and the passion to do all that is what makes, what would make an agency who hypothetically has no experience in a particular category just as good, if not arguably better.

[00:19:16] Todd: Then an agency that might have a lot of experience in a category, that's probably using sort of rinse and repeat tactics and knowledge base. Why, a fresh perspective, if you will, on something could outperform sort of a tried and true model that just seems to just be used. So now I'm going to kind of do a hard right or left turn in this conversation, because it made me think about.

[00:19:38] Todd: Something we struggle with as a service based business all the time. And it's not getting any easier. It's probably getting worse. although we say that every year, should that cost the same? Should a client get an agency that can just spin things up very quickly and easily, should that cost the same versus an agency that's going to put people to work like you're describing,

[00:20:00] Kelly: depends on what you're buying. Are you buying a, this word is so overused, but I don't know how, are you buying a marketing partnership, a marketing consultation, a marketing? You know, sometimes it's referred to as an AOR. Are you buying strategy? Are you trying to buy a service provider? Someone who will simply take orders and place media on a platform,

[00:20:20] Todd: a client expects that, right? They expect when they hire a media agency, they're not thinking, Oh, I'm hiring somebody to just Quickly spin up, ad groups and place campaigns for me, they're thinking, oh, I'm hiring,

[00:20:33] Todd: you know?

[00:20:34] Kelly: companies have two different entities that they hire one to purely do the strategy and all of that. And then a different media buyer to, to do the outcome. So it could be a two in one solution where you're actually paying two different costs in there.

[00:20:46] Kelly: but yeah, I mean, I think ultimately if you are expecting someone to fill that role, that there's a lot that goes into that that is not simply the operation and execution of what does it take to buy ads on Facebook or. Programatically or on search ads, there's an expertise in doing that there is the ability to do keyword research, the ability to look at KPI measurement and optimization and bid strategies and all that.

[00:21:12] Kelly: But then that's very different than the, what is the macro marketing experience that all of that is laddering up to and serving is that creating.

[00:21:22] Todd: Well, it's unpacking all the business, You're unpacking everything about the business. It could be supply chain, it could be landed, sort of cost and implications. what you're referencing is all the stuff that we talk about and sort of challenge our clients to have a conversation around, which have really nothing to do with the act of planning and buying media.

[00:21:40] Todd: It has everything to do with the act of making an investment in media that was well thought out 10 stages before the actual media message gets in the market so that when it does get into market, it has the best chance of making a business impact. That's what you're talking about.

[00:21:55] Kelly: it's understanding puzzle that media buying is a piece of, when we buy a Facebook ad to put in front of someone. how have we decided that that's the right person to put in front of? How do we understand where they're at in the journey so that we connect them with the right message?

[00:22:10] Kelly: Where are we going to direct them to for a user experience that gets them to hear or see what they need to to take the next action? How do we put in analytics to understand the impact? How do we collect first party data to have our own audiences to know who to nurture and reengage and where to send them, whether it's an educational message or a conversion message?

[00:22:31] Kelly: Those that's a lot bigger thinking traditionally that can be everything from persona development to analytics, retainers to message strategy. But all of these things are the variables and the components that have to come together in the right mix, the right recipe to get to the outcomes that you want, where the answer is very rarely just.

[00:22:50] Kelly: If I somehow buy the right meta ad or the right Google ad at the right time, that is singularly going to result in what I want. That is a mechanism by which you get to the outcome you want, where there's a lot of other pieces that have to go into that. And again, I would say that a true marketing partnership.

[00:23:07] Kelly: Looks at the big picture, factors that in, would consult back and challenge clients if they haven't done the right things or the best things with those other components before buying that ad and say, maybe we shouldn't be spending these dollars yet or before we execute this campaign, we need to look at the creative, we need to match it to the user journey, we need to make sure we have all the data in place and we need to collect all of first party data, our second party data, our third party data.

[00:23:31] Kelly: We need to have a test in place. We need to do all of this. That is the bigger picture, right? And I want someone who's looking at and engaging with me with that in mind versus just saying, oh, you need to reach soccer moms in California. Great. I'll do that on metaphor. You give me, here's a hundred grand.

[00:23:47] Kelly: Here's. A million impressions you got towards that audience. Hope it worked for you.

[00:23:50] Todd: Okay, so I'm going to steer you back to the original topic was so you just talked about somebody that's got all this experience and doing all this stuff and thinking about all that. So we've already done all that. And the next client comes along that's got the same or similar sort of product. Maybe it's even a competitor.

[00:24:05] Todd: Wouldn't that all be applicable then? And wouldn't that make us a specialist in that area?

[00:24:09] Kelly: Yeah. A specialist in the marketing capability. I would say that knowledge universally can be applied to almost any category industry, a client operates in. I don't think that doing that in automotive versus DTC versus, you know, shoes or whatever is different. I think if you understand that concept in a whole, you can apply it to just about any outcome or target audience that you're trying to reach and influence.

[00:24:34] Todd: Well, that's the challenge I think that is out there is that there's a lot of people that don't believe that they believe you have to be a specialist in order to be the best at something.

[00:24:43] Kelly: think an organization needs to have that specialty. If you plan to just, again, if it's not built around the people, if you're building it around the people, those people should have the skillset to be able to apply those skills across channels. And if you're hiring the people aspect of it, that's what you get.

[00:24:58] Kelly: But if you're hoping to just hire the blueprint or the process where the people are a by product, that's the zero sum I can plug in. who can buy ads on Facebook, but they have to follow my playbook. Then I think the specialty matters. But again, my argument is I would much rather hire smart people and apply that to my business than to hire some blueprint that anyone is expected to be able to deploy on behalf of my business.

[00:25:23] Todd: well, yeah. And there goes back to the other argument of is there an expectation that The payment for that service should be the same, like, why is there no differentiation and what you're describing is a blueprint service based provider and as we describe ourselves, a more small batch. crafted, boutique experience, but yet the payment for said crafted bespoke small batch experience seems to be, not valued

[00:25:54] Kelly: I mean, I think that just kind of goes into a little bit of the dark side of industry where I'm going to use my same sort of joke around the case study. No one ever pitches. I'm going to do an okay job for you. Everyone comes in saying we have the best people and we have the best experience and we're going to do the best work for you.

[00:26:10] Kelly: Oh, and we'll do it for really cheap so that you'll sign on the bottom line. But we know that oftentimes is a disconnect between there is one group of people that are tasked with new business and generating new business at whatever costs, say whatever it takes to get it. And then who really cares what happens after the fact, like it's someone else's problem to figure out how to fulfill and serve on that.

[00:26:28] Kelly: And then that's where you get into the handoff. And now you're like, okay, well, we have this many dollars, which equates to this many hours, which means I have to cut this many corners to make this work, which means outsourcing and bringing on junior talent and automating things because you have to squeeze the outcome into the promise that was made.

[00:26:49] Kelly: In order to make the dollars and cents work, and that's oftentimes the way the engagements go through. And it's, why people seem to go through their agency relationships so much because they go in being promised the world lackluster experience fall short. Now, I go to the next person that will promise me, but I don't want to pay for it.

[00:27:06] Kelly: I don't want to pay more because I know the industry norm is. Tells me X, Y, or Z, so I'm not going to pay more than that, but I'm going to expect somehow different in the next 1 and you're just. You know, it's a volume play. Just go through until somehow you get lucky. Or at some point you're like, okay, like everything else in life, I'm going to get what I pay for.

[00:27:22] Kelly: I'm going to really vet it on the re the reality of what I'm going to get versus the promises. And I'm going to pick a partner the same way you try and go through your hiring, your interviewing process for a true employee, you try and go through and get a sense of how are you going to work for me? How are you going to learn about my business?

[00:27:40] Kelly: How are you going to be as an employee? You should be evaluating agencies the same way, not based on just your history on it, but really, how are you approaching and thinking about what am I going to get out of you on a personal level?

[00:27:51] Kelly: make it sound easier than it is. It's not an easy thing to do,

[00:27:53] Todd: not.

[00:27:54] Kelly: but.

[00:27:54] Todd: I thought I was going to knock you off your pedestal today and force you to acquiesce to special specialization, but I was unsuccessful and you have convinced me that you don't need to be a specialist unless you're trying to spin something up really quick, where you just need to

[00:28:06] Kelly: Like I said, I think, yeah, it's either if you have to be able to deploy a blueprint that you're going to kind of backfill and get someone to do, yeah, they need to be able to follow that in there. But if you hire people that are really good at what they do, and they're going to give you their time and their energy, and you're structured in a way where you get an engagement versus a service, that talent and that curiosity and that ability should be able to be applied on your behalf.

[00:28:28] Kelly: And the ability to close that gap between I don't know the automotive industry to I can find the data partners in the platforms. Everything's pretty easy to find if you've been doing this long enough and you understand where to look and how to search like it's not hidden. It's not some secret thing that you can't get to.

[00:28:43] Kelly: You don't have to be in some secret club to get access to it. You just have to be smart enough to look for it and or pick up the phone to people you've been talking to, because we're constantly trying to make sure we know what the latest and greatest is and looking for the chance to deploy it.

[00:28:55] Todd: All right, fair enough. You win. I lose as usual. all right, we'll wrap it up. it's a good conversation. know there's a lot of agencies or search consultancies out there. Maybe they'll hear this and they'll think about specialization differently. maybe you've given reason or pause to think about things differently.

[00:29:12] Todd: as we hope,

[00:29:13] Kelly: last thing I want to say. It's a comfort blanket, right? Because even when we still pitch business, I say it doesn't matter. But when we pitch business, we still talk about relevant experience that we have, because even though I don't think it's important what we do, if we had no experience, I still think we can do a great job for almost any client that would come to us.

[00:29:29] Kelly: We still do talk about, Hey, we've done it for these types of clients because it does still feel good. There is an element of comfort in it. I would just argue it shouldn't necessarily be a disqualifying factor or the only thing you look for because you could miss out on a lot of great opportunity by one thing.

[00:29:43] Kelly: That's kind of nice, but I wouldn't say makes a meaningful difference if you pick your partner in the right way. So I just wanted to make it clear that like we do still talk about experiences, similar experiences, similar types of clients we have because there's still a comfort level in that as a starting point when it makes sense.

[00:29:58] Todd: think that's a great way to frame it up and I would just bow tie that with the statement you made that I will say again. It should be about not what people can do, but what they will do. I think that's a big difference. So we'll pack it up and I'm just going to ask you like I always ask you any, sticky last ad that you can recall seeing

[00:30:20] Kelly: Not a specific ad, but it's just because you've answered this question the same way before, and I have now very much had this similar experience coming on to me. I am getting a lot of Spanish language ads, a lot, so many more than I expect to have, and I don't know where or why or how it's coming about.

[00:30:37] Todd: I don't know what's going on the connected TV world, but if any CTV people, listen to this, for God's sakes, figure out your targeting, and if I, the drug pharma companies, I swear to God, I must profile on my CTV data as like an 80 year old. person with ailments, but maybe that's because i'm searching stuff online all the time for clients or who

[00:31:00] Kelly: For those 80 year old ailments that you have.

[00:31:02] Todd: I literally it's a joke now the songs and the names of these pharma companies that come on Non stop.

[00:31:09] Todd: I mean the frequency they're breaking every rule in advertising that you should have ever applied to in a best practice and it is Infuriating that I have to watch the same pharma ad or the same three pharma ads For one TV series or one show on a Hulu or whatever, 15 times,

[00:31:27] Kelly: might actually be more contextually targeted versus person targeted, which I think is a terrible way to buy because As you know, I watch a lot of soccer and there may be some,

[00:31:36] Todd: thing related to that

[00:31:38] Kelly: assumptions being made in that, but I've had entire streams where it's been the commercial breaks have been in

[00:31:43] Kelly: Spanish, but again, you shouldn't be targeting on content alone.

[00:31:47] Kelly: It should be layering in data and audience targeting stuff. It's just a bad way to be spending those dollars. But it really dawned on me because I think I had a stream the other day where. It honestly, every single ad in the whole break was Spanish. I was like, what, what is happening here? And why

[00:32:01] Todd: I wish I knew. makes me want to look at these advertisers and look at their agencies and call them and go, why am I seeing your ad every commercial break? Over and over and over again, and it's in Spanish, and I am a white, bald, 50 year old English speaking guy. Like, why am I seeing this? I

[00:32:18] Kelly: The other one that I very much had is I stayed at a hotel recently. And while I was in the hotel on their own wifi, I was getting ads. Stay here at this hotel. I'm like. Maybe you should recognize you've already sold me. You were spending so much money trying to get me to stay at a hotel.

[00:32:35] Kelly: Well, I'm actively at this hotel. Like maybe we should put some guardrails in place.

[00:32:40] Todd: wonder if their agency is hospitality specialty agency. All right. Well, always good to kick things around with you and try to poke holes in them. I'm never usually successful and you win me over, but it's always fun. So, we'll do it again next Monday. Thanks.

[00:32:55] Kelly: Thanks everyone.