Market Shifts, Layoffs, and Attracting Top Talent

[00:00:00] Kelly: no one ever won a piece of business saying that we're second best, or we're going to do mediocre work, or it'd be okay. Right? They won by saying, we're going to be the best. And we're going to give you the best people.

[00:00:08] Kelly: And we're going to do the best work for you. And if that is ultimately the people that they went and found and put on and to do the best work. If you're now gutting that team and that, or that team is so easily replaced or made redundant, how do you juxtapose that with the argument of, did I really have the best people?

[00:00:24] Kelly: Why were they so dispensable? How could it be moved so easily? Everyone, Kelly McGuire, co founder of Vuja Dé Digital, excited to get into today's topics.

[00:00:59] Todd: Hello everybody. This is Todd, you know, Kelly's partner. And today we have been chewing on each other's slack ears off and on all day long with lots of debatable, conjecture about all the crap that's happening, in the agency business, in the tech industry, even in our agency business, how we're trying to figure some things out.

[00:01:21] Todd: So I figured today we'll just kick a bunch of these topics around. and maybe people will find it interesting. the first jumping off point we can talk about is you and I discussed today a lot about talent and the value of talent or maybe the misunderstood value of people and talent, in an agency service based business role.

[00:01:43] Todd: what the optics and the perceptions are about how talent services. Work how they are thought of inside the agency from a billable and utilization standpoint to what a client is paying the agency, for said talent. And is it a talent, B talent, D talent, C talent, whatever level of talent that is.

[00:02:03] Todd: There's so much sort of fuzzy, blurry, um, gray space that seems to be happening in that, case in point, one of the recent ad week articles that you shared about a bunch of WPP staff bailing because of the off return to office mandate and. How all the indie agencies, and we know this to be true through our recent recruiting efforts that I'd say 50 percent or more, probably more like 60 or 70 percent of the resumes that we received at our indie agency in a recruiting effort came from hold co.

[00:02:38] Todd: Employees that are either still employed by a large hold co agency. where they've basically said their life is miserable, or people who have recently been laid off by big tech, big agency companies that I think your commentary around this this morning was, well, if those are great people and they're doing great work and now all of a sudden they're gone, if you're on the client side, like.

[00:03:01] Todd: What are the implications of that if the agency is just hiring other people or whatever? So, I know you have a lot to say about this, but that's maybe the 1st point we can jump off on is what your clients, what should agency owners, any business owner, whatever be thinking about their talent?

[00:03:16] Todd: And the talent pool and how do you justify it?

[00:03:19] Kelly: Yeah, I find it brings up a lot of questions or, interesting things to think about. And I won't pretend to have definitive answers to any of it, but I think it's a worthwhile thought exercise. you know, a lot of what we talk about is what does make a, bad, decent, good, great, exceptional agency.

[00:03:36] Kelly: what is good work versus decent? We're like, what is the spectrum? What defines value and outcomes, We always talk about. There's this idea that we've debated before around performance marketing and how would it be nice if there's an absolute clear line of sight from media to revenue and it's there, but that's rarely the case.

[00:03:54] Kelly: and then we kind of dial it back to a lot of it just comes down to the experience that you have and being able to kind of trust your gut what you feel like is happening and being able to read through that. but we've talked a lot that that can get lost through translation and layers of organization where, day to day people can get a certain feeling, but people that are further from day to day touch point may not have as much visibility into certain value that doesn't maybe show up on paper as clearly.

[00:04:20] Kelly: and I say all of that to go back around to 1 of the things we talk a lot about. Is where the biggest value tends to happen in my opinion is in the people that are doing the work and I think even that comes with a couple of layers to it because there is both a level of talent of the people themselves and what they are capable of doing.

[00:04:41] Kelly: I think sometimes it's not even necessarily the capabilities or the talent of the people. Sometimes that you can have great people that are handcuffed or not allowed to do the best work that can create. Issues. so it points out that it's a very layered cake. There's a lot of components that can dictate whether or not you have a good or bad experience or whether or not you're getting your money's worth or your value's worth what you're paying for.

[00:05:04] Kelly: I think what really struck me as underlying that argument in that article is at the scale that we're talking about. I want to say it said the article was something like 130, 000 or 127, 000. Employees or something, and it was going to get shrunk down to like 110, 000. So you're talking about a difference of 15, 20, 000 people that were going to get displaced in this action.

[00:05:27] Kelly: And I can't remember if it's IPG something like that. but, you know, it struck me, I'm like, okay, let's just break that down and think about that's a large, large number of people that are probably doing work for what I would assume are probably pretty sophisticated, important clients that probably spend a lot of money.

[00:05:43] Kelly: And, we always talk about this agencies, win business on promising the best, and no one ever won a piece of business saying that we're second best, or we're going to do mediocre work, or it'd be okay. Right? They won by saying, we're going to be the best. And we're going to give you the best people.

[00:05:57] Kelly: And we're going to do the best work for you. And if that is ultimately the people that they went and found and put on and to do the best work. If you're now gutting that team and that, or that team is so easily replaced or made redundant, how do you juxtapose that with the argument of, did I really have the best people?

[00:06:13] Kelly: Why were they so dispensable? How could it be moved so easily? What's happening to the clients that are losing those people? Or where's that talent going to go? Where are they going to be fostered? Why are they unhappy? And what is going to get the best out of them? And how do I hire the entity that's, producing that?

[00:06:28] Kelly: And again, this is a very fragmented thought process because there's so many different questions that it raises. It starts to go back to what we talk about a lot, which is how do people evaluate and analyze what they're getting, who they should be working with, what they should be paying for, what they're getting, if they're getting the best, what are the signals that, tell you how you're marketing and the people responsible that relationship are showing up for you.

[00:06:52] Kelly: and I think there's a lot to unpack there, a lot of avenues, but that's kind of that scattered thinking that brings in minds is it's. It's crazy that this thing can highlight how fragile or unknown a lot of that could potentially be.

[00:07:03] Todd: Well, there's 2 other things. I want to sort of circle around that we talked about. of them is that You expressed how frustrated you are with having to justify. Our existence of doing what we do, which we argue is more than what your average competitor that would be dubbed a media agency would do, and that we do it better.

[00:07:28] Todd: you have a lot of frustration around the idea that. You know, we have to justify that and then yet also have to justify, again, the talent pool, right? That There's a talent pool that contributes to that, but this idea of, agencies having to justify their existence, justify their fees, and then you and I thinking about our company.

[00:07:49] Todd: And if we are to just be compared as a media agency to another media agency, what differentiator can we really right? we're a service business. At the end of the day, we're serving, we provide a service, which is, delivered by people. Just like a restaurant, you make food, you serve food, we make strategy and media execution and analytics is our food and our count team serves it up to our clients.

[00:08:16] Todd: Right? you have this huge frustration about being compared to other agencies where your belief is that. We're better and my counter to that is well, I don't think we're the absolute very best and that there's nobody in the world That can be better than us. I think We're the best of the best.

[00:08:34] Todd: And there's other people that are in that category. There are other people who are just as good.

[00:08:39] Kelly: a, it's a tear. It's not a lone tear. would agree with that.

[00:08:41] Todd: It's a tier. we would argue that we hire and pay people at the upper end of that tier. and that's just our brand promise and that's what we go to work. but the struggle is real on How do we, how does anybody in that case? And we have friendly agencies that were friends with the owners and they do what we do and they struggle from the same thing.

[00:08:59] Todd: how do we articulate that? how does the market or know the CMO forget the CMO? Let's just. say the president of the company or the CEO of the company that never has talked to you or me, never worked with our teams. How are they going to know that we're better and that we're actually doing more work than maybe we're supposed to be paid for and that the people that we've hired are smarter. And we sound like jerks for saying that, but. Hey, that is how we built our business. our executive producer of our show gave us the context of, you know, what makes Stanford, Harvard, Berkeley, UCLA, different than just a state school. are they really different, or is it just merchandising and marketing?

[00:09:40] Todd: Some people would argue it is, and that the curriculum and the academics, and the teachers and the professors, maybe they aren't better. How do those schools differentiate themselves? we've had a good debate about this this morning, and it's a tricky, sticky area to sort of define as an agency of we're better, we just are, and I can't necessarily show you that on a slide.

[00:10:05] Todd: I can't present that to you in a deck. I can't give you an infographic that proves that. I can just tell you egotistically and short of sounding like an asshole, we're just better. We just are.

[00:10:19] Kelly: think it comes down to, that that's validated again in the approach, It's not just saying it for the sake of saying it, but it is backing that up in putting mechanisms and processes and bandwidth to fulfill on that because I think a lot of it is, it is built around how you show up.

[00:10:39] Todd: Not everybody sees how we show

[00:10:41] Todd: up.

[00:10:41] Kelly: and that's the problem. Right? that's where it's, you said that, you know, in just saying it, but there's almost a penalty in being humble about it, right? There's almost a penalty in not bragging or, or showing it or making it known because then it can go unknown and it can, slip through or, or fade into the background and those types of things.

[00:10:57] Kelly: So there's an interesting component of that. Again, I think it can be a component of, building a company in a certain way with that as a core foundation, but then creating the environment for that to be able to happen, right? do think a lot of times where it falls short in other organizations or structures isn't that the capability isn't there.

[00:11:15] Kelly: It's that the motivation, the reasons for doing the work aren't always necessarily aligned with. What would allow that type of approach to be had, we know this, a lot of, organizations have very strict comptrollers that they sit there and say, you only have so many hours.

[00:11:32] Kelly: You can only do so much work. There's only so much profitability. There's only so much salary that can go against this. And it doesn't matter if that's hamstringing. The outcomes because the business comes first and it's not the relationship and there's different ways. I'm not saying that's every organization.

[00:11:45] Kelly: I'm saying that's one example amongst many ways in which it can go awry. And that's what creates such a sticky web in this.

[00:11:51] Todd: the question. Maybe this will draw something different out of you. So we got asked point blank today by, a potential new partner client. What is our secret sauce? What makes us different? Well, how do we answer that? well, I think there's two layers, right? I think the very first component, which you alluded to is you do have to show up in the capability tier. There is, you do need to have the experience, the proven performance, the knowledge base. You do actually need the talent there.

[00:12:23] Kelly: There is a skill set to what we do. It's not zero somewhere. Just anyone can do it, right? So there is an element of making sure that you do have the roster and the depth and the experience and the relationships and just to be able to do the work, once you now are in the major leagues, if you will, right, once you have major league talent at the disposal, now what makes, know, if you were looking at, I'm just going to try and use this knowledge and see if I can run with it.

[00:12:46] Kelly: If you now have all your 32 major league teams, So how many major league teams are at something like that? now what makes your world series champion versus your last place team, but they're all major league talent, A lot of times that comes to organizational strength, How do you bring together?

[00:13:00] Kelly: How do you do your scouting? How all of these I'm going to move away from the sports analogy on it now, but like. You have the talent. Now you actually have to structure how to deploy that talent and how to give it the freedom to actually go to work and fulfill on promises and be motivated to do their best work, incentivize to do it, have the bandwidth to do it, have the support systems to do it, have the mandate from the top down to do it.

[00:13:24] Kelly: And then really understand again, at some point, it is still a business, even if it doesn't have to be run like a P and E to the penny max profitability, it is still a business. So you also have to make sure that you have the right. environment and the right relationships that clients are investing enough to warrant the certain amount of presence that's in there.

[00:13:45] Kelly: And there's gotta be a consideration there. So all of these things need to be thought about and work through to know is all of those fits happening. So now that you've got the talent and you can do the work now I'm going to answer the question about the secret sauce. What makes you different now that you can do it?

[00:13:59] Kelly: It is the way you show up. This is where we move into being a service based organization. At the end of the day, do we show up and are we providing a service to our clients that isn't just order taking and buy and placing media? Like that's the end of it. Is there critical thinking? Is there creative thinking?

[00:14:18] Kelly: Is there problem solving? Is there the ability to think outside the box, to deploy a process, to get to an outcome that isn't just, if you ask me to do something, you've bought hours from me and I will apply them to doing that for you. But is there proactiveness? Is there answering questions? Is there the forward thinking?

[00:14:39] Kelly: Like, these are the things that You have to experience it. The other analogy that it brings to mind is a lot of people will say there's, you know, worth its weight in gold is having a great mechanic. If you don't know anything about cars, how do you know if a great mechanic's great? there's just a certain level of trustworthiness.

[00:14:56] Kelly: There's the way that they present information to you. There's the way that they explain things to you. There's the way. That you believe that there's transparency and what you're getting in the charging and the understanding versus, you know, if you go somewhere that just doesn't feel good, it just, it's not an experience that you want.

[00:15:11] Kelly: And could be reputational experiences to it. So may not be a perfect analogy, but there's other things in life where it's not as crystal clear and there's a lot of ambiguity, but you can still feel your way through what is a good or a bad engagement situation. Chin. I don't know why it gets lost also in kind of what we do so much,

[00:15:30] Todd: I don't know either. So here's a question. talent's leaving or getting laid off. And the agency business specifically over the last, say, six months or whatever, maybe even more so in the last three months, if you could start a company and go hire all the best of the best people from all these layoffs, and overnight, you could set up a company and say, I now have an agency that's staffed by 25 or 50 or whatever of the best people's resumes, pedigrees, whatever

[00:15:59] Kelly: we have, uh, you mean turn it into 200 of those people.

[00:16:04] Todd: I'm just thinking like, I mean, if overnight you had that. Yeah. Does that make you a better agency? should you be able to demand higher fees? Should you all of a sudden win more business than the other agencies? I guess the question is that we were kicking around this morning is your comment to me was, gosh, I wish we could go hire all these people so that we could grow.

[00:16:25] Todd: And my answer was hiring all those people. Is it going to help us grow? They'll help us do the work and we can enable all these great people to do their very best work because our business model is slightly different than others in our space. maybe that's the answer to what is our superpower.

[00:16:42] Todd: it's an operational or a functional sort of empowerment of people, and process it as our superpower, which ultimately results in better business outcomes from the work that we do, but you know, the argument is is that you said, if we hire all these people, we could grow.

[00:17:00] Todd: And I'm like, no, we, can't, just sales is the only thing that agencies grow from is sales. We have to sell more clients to believe in us and hire us or any agency for that

[00:17:10] Todd: fact.

[00:17:10] Kelly: that's where the point of clarity came in, right? When I use the term, I wish there's nothing technically stopping us. We could go higher on those people, but to your point, there's no point in that. So the stopping point of that and the wish is based on is what allows for that kind of growth, which is.

[00:17:27] Kelly: Finding the clients that have the resources and the need and the willingness to select an entity. In this case, I would obviously be hoping that would be us that would provide that resource to go acquire that talent to then be able to deploy it in the way. And like I said, it's not just having the capability, right?

[00:17:48] Kelly: You can have the major league talent and still not win the World Series. But you could also have minor league talent that no matter how great your organization is, they're never going to be able to compete at the major league level. Right? So there is a difference there. So the fact that there are 3 agents out there that very skilled, just wish that there was the ability to.

[00:18:07] Kelly: Be able to break outside of sort of the blinders that I think a lot of clients operate in, which is buying the promises and the fancy sales pitches and the history of, here's what I did for a client a hundred times bigger than you. So somehow that's going to matter to what I do for you. And in fact, you're not going to get any experience out of any of that, but being able to find the resources that could go gobble that up and then deploy it in the way that we've been able to at the size we are at for the clients we have, because Repeating that experience because again, I would argue that it is both acquiring the talent and deploying it properly that actually gets the best out of it and has an experience.

[00:18:44] Kelly: So that's where the kind of the wish comes in. And that's the secret sauce is creating a structure, creating a motivated environment, creating accountability and processes and collaboration mandates and Structures that allow that talent to flourish and come to the table and quite frankly allows them to be invested enough to care in a way that's not just, well, I work for some international company.

[00:19:09] Kelly: I'm 1 of 100, 000 employees. I just want to put in my hours and get my paycheck. I'm not going to make a difference here. So I'm not going to kill myself for it. So again, it's really just that wish is the opportunity to do what our vision is. Which is being able to take the best, give them bandwidth and the flexibility to thrive, to be the best that they can be and to have clients that can ultimately benefit from that, but can understand that they are benefiting from that.

[00:19:39] Kelly: In a way that they wouldn't if they paid half the price or supposedly paid half the price or whatever other grandiose promises get made to win businesses that ultimately end up in the clients we do win being like, I need something different. us auditing accounts. That are like, wow, there's some major flaws happening here.

[00:20:00] Kelly: How did this ever happen? Well, it happened because whatever that big promise was that allowed that whoever we're taking over from to get hired certainly never made its way to the execution stage by any stretch of the imagination.

[00:20:13] Todd: think that's kind of where maybe you were expressing some of the frustration is how the world can we be compared to other agencies where they say they do a lot of the same things. That we would say we do, but we're reasonably confident that they can't or don't to the degree in which we do. because either a, they don't have the talent or B, maybe they have the talent, but they don't have the time or the fee structure to be able to unlock the power of that talent.

[00:20:41] Todd: but again, pretty difficult to use that as a differentiator or distinguishing point of view. That any client's going to really be able to clearly understand and, well, it's definitely in an RFP process. it's hard to ascertain that stuff. I think you were making the analogy earlier about dating apps, right?

[00:21:03] Todd: You're just swiping and you don't really, you don't really know, like, we could have all the right matches, hobbies, interests. whatever physicality, but

[00:21:13] Kelly: Well, that's Why that analogy came up is there's a certain sense of feel at some point. There's chemistry. There's compatibility. There's enjoyment. There is. That willingness to go through, am I liking what I'm getting on a day to day basis? Am I feeling like something's there? Am I feeling like.

[00:21:30] Kelly: There's progress in that or do I feel like there's something missing? Am I disappointed in this? Is it just kind of the same thing? Am I more excited than they are? Like there's all of these things like, yeah, am I getting the payoff? Am I getting the outcomes? Or even if I'm not getting the outcomes, do I feel like there's not just an acceptance of that, that there is a passion.

[00:21:49] Kelly: I think passion's a big ancillary the dating thing. the engagement thing is, is there a passion and a care? And do I feel like. I am a priority and that I matter and that, again, I am getting my values worth in this so much of it is based on feel, but as we've said, the problem that can come down with that is.

[00:22:08] Kelly: Especially when you get into layers of organizations or distance or something we talked quite a lot about is turnover at an organization once if you have sort of day to day or you've established that and there's turnover, someone else coming in, there's a lot of disruption and experience around that they can kind of come in and happen and And try and feel some of that out.

[00:22:28] Kelly: So it shows the choppy waters that we operate in and some of the pitfalls that exist in the uncertainty some of those things that is always, it's interesting to think about how to properly show up and make the right promises and, be able to make appropriate promises and not over promise and under deliver and be part of the.

[00:22:47] Kelly: This sort of the mouse wheel that I think is very problematic that creates a lot of the distrust that allows these choppy waters to exist that we're now having to operate within just because of the nature of the beast a little bit.

[00:22:58] Todd: well, I don't know where to go with any of this particular conversation, other than that does seem like there's a lot of good people flooding the market, very different job market than it was two years ago when it was the, opposite and agencies were scrambling to hire anyone they could get. and paying them 30, 40 percent more than what they be paying them or were previously paying them.

[00:23:20] Todd: I don't know, difficulties all around the business as we start the year and lots of opportunity all

[00:23:28] Kelly: Yeah, I mean, look, I think it's important that we're not, I know we've talked about this in a certain way, and I think there's just more pointing out again, it's interesting food for thought. It's an interesting exercise to consider what all of this may be. Pulls back the veil a little bit. I think why this is interesting now is this isn't anything new of what we've talked about, but seeing the large scale movement and disruptions that are happening at the biggest players that tend to be the beacons of how the industry operates, right?

[00:23:54] Kelly: Cause these are the agencies that your Procter and Gamble's are at that your Coca Cola's are at. So you have to assume, or you would want to assume in theory, that should be the pinnacle of talent. That should definitely be the eight team and all of these things. But it's really interesting when you think about if you operate under that assumption, that there's because they're spending huge, huge amounts of money.

[00:24:15] Kelly: So they should be getting that either they're not, and it's very easy to let go huge swaths of their team that probably weren't bringing that value, which is kind of wild to think that was possible for so long, or they were getting that talent, but it's somehow dispensable. And it wasn't being deployed, right? And supposedly nothing will change if 25 percent of what should have been on the business now disappears. Things just keep as good as they were. Performance doesn't suffer. Nothing changes. Then, what's the value there? Or there's just this idea that that's not the talent and there's this churn and it's not about the people.

[00:24:50] Kelly: It's about somehow it's about the process and these other things. And it's, I don't know, it's just, it's very interesting to me when you break it down into how can huge, huge chunks of talent employees just disappear, but the clients that don't disappear somehow aren't disrupted in any way. That tells me that there is unknowns under the surface that probably.

[00:25:11] Kelly: Indicate a lot more thinking is meant to be done in what, what the reality of what everyone's buying and getting and how that all works is.

[00:25:19] Todd: Well, I definitely don't have any of those answers. I just know that it's something we have to continue to think about as a business and as a service based business. when you don't like being compared to others and if, you know, no different than others and what good are we, or some comment you made like that to me this morning in Slack, I don't know how to articulate that, at this point in time, for us particular, what our clients experience with us, they claim is different than what they have typically experienced in the past with other agency service providers. So that's really the only validation that we can hang our hat on is that somehow, we do deliver. A different service and certainly a different business outcome, a better business outcome, because largely every media program we have taken over from another agency.

[00:26:08] Todd: We have outperformed. Otherwise, we would have been fired. luckily for us, we have outperformed because we. Do you have senior Really good people that are healthy and happy and paid well and are committed with passion and curiosity and pride to do the very best work, but I'll be damned if I don't go to my grave, trying to continue to justify that to people who, need.

[00:26:35] Todd: further proof or evidence, that they're getting the best bang for their buck. that's a struggle I think probably lots of businesses face, not just ad agencies, but all kinds of service businesses are constantly having to justify their presence and their fees. And, um, that's a struggle that, will always exist.

[00:26:54] Kelly: Yeah, I mean, always wish it was more, more quantitative than what I think it ultimately is. But I think there's so many variables and there's so much nuance to outcomes and data and sales cycles and, the KPIs and the metrics and all that. Obviously that's important.

[00:27:09] Kelly: Obviously there has to be positivity towards that, but the one thing that you can always have control over. And then I think everyone should strive for again is. I liken it back to sort of the dating experience, which is what is your experience? What is your day to day? Are you being challenged?

[00:27:25] Kelly: Are you hearing what you want to hear? Are you impressed with what's being brought to you are you seeing proactivity? Are you seeing passion? Are you seeing care again? Are you seeing check boxes? Are you seeing rinse and repeat reporting? Are you seeing. Green arrows up with little explanation.

[00:27:41] Kelly: are you getting engaged in meaningful, creative, critical thinking dialogue that feels like someone is thinking about your business moving forward, or are you just getting service provider? We bought you some ads. We got you some impressions. Here's your CPA. Here's your KPI. Next week, you're going to hear from someone else because that person quit or removing that talent to the next client, you have to be able to read between those lines and and have that experience.

[00:28:05] Kelly: And again, if I was on that side of the fence, that is what would matter. The most to me is, am I engaging in a meaningful way with the people that I am paying? To do marketing for me, or am I just getting a service that is literally anyone is logging in and making sure that my impressions are showing up in the marketplace and, being plug and played on my behalf,

[00:28:27] Todd: yeah, well, that also assumes that those people care about that stuff. Not everyone cares about

[00:28:32] Kelly: but that's what marketing is, right? again, maybe that's a different debate for a different day. What is marketing versus what is just media buying? Cause I would argue, if you really think about that, those Should be very different things. Media buying is one component of actual business impact marketing with lots of components that go into it.

[00:28:48] Todd: Right. Which goes back to the original point of, if the application of talent and time and skill goes beyond just the basic service providing sort of, tactics, how do you take credit for that? And how do you get paid for that? And how do you demonstrate that and merchandise that and articulate that?

[00:29:11] Todd: those are all challenging questions, probably well, for our business, certainly, and maybe for others in our space. Most certainly as well challenging for them. None of which I have the answers today. So I'm going to shut up and leave at that. as, we've had a long day around this debate and some great conversations with.

[00:29:29] Todd: Perspective new clients and existing clients and, every day is a battle. Every day is a struggle and a reward as well. When you win some of those battles and struggles, and then you wake up the next day and you, go to work and start battling again. So that's the story of our lives.

[00:29:44] Kelly: I think my word of the day has been critical thinking. And, you know, I think this has been a little bit more roundabout than some of the other shows we've done, but hopefully this sparks some critical thinking people just. Asking some questions or thinking about experience or, going through some thought process around, Oh yeah, that is interesting.

[00:29:59] Kelly: I wonder what that means. I wonder, what that is. Cause I feel like sometimes we all just get a little bit heads down, focused on what's in front of us and maybe it's harder to pull back and really do some of that top down, bigger thinking and really, you know, challenge some of that stuff.

[00:30:13] Kelly: So

[00:30:13] Todd: hopefully. yeah, whatever we're saying, we'll. Cause people to pause and go, oh, yeah, I should think about that or I didn't think about that or I need to think about that.

[00:30:23] Kelly: we're formulating an opinion. That's totally opposite of ours. Maybe we're totally wrong. Who

[00:30:27] Todd: yeah, I, we can be thought provoking one way or the other. That's, a good thing. so yeah, I'll leave it at that.

[00:30:32] Todd: good chat on slack and. on this podcast show of ours today, I will talk to you, about another topic later on another

[00:30:41] Todd: show.

[00:30:42] Kelly: Thanks everybody.

[00:30:42] Todd: Thanks