Challenging the Status Quo: Vuja Dé Digital's Vision

[00:00:00] Liz: you pay for what you get, and my dad would always say buy quality and you'll never be disappointed. That doesn't mean I'm going to go out and get a really expensive agency. And again, to your point about that cache with some big name brand shop, nobody sees the label on the inside of your sweater.

[00:00:15] Liz: They just know if it looks good and if it seems high quality and if it fits you well, So nobody needs to know that so and so launched my media campaign in some ways. If it's effective in the market, that's what matters. Right. And if it's driving results, that's what matters.

[00:00:56] Kelly: Hi, I'm Kelly McGuire. I'm a co founder of Boujee Day Digital and I'm excited to get into today's topics.

[00:01:01] Todd: Hey everybody. This is Todd Juno, Kelly's co founding partner of Vuja de Digital. And today I'm excited to talk about our very first guest on our podcast. Liz Allen, who has an amazing background.

[00:01:15] Todd: I can't even believe she's, speaking with us today with her background. a little bit about Liz. she is currently a lecturer, and an advisor to UC Berkeley's Haas School of Business, where she talks about all things business. Marketing and business, when she's not doing, the job of being a chief marketing officer.

[00:01:32] Todd: speaking of which, she's been a chief marketing officer for some of the biggest, most known brands. I'm sure you all would recognize brands like LucasArts, The Gap, Cost Plus, DocuSign, Tuft Needle, and most recently, where we had the fortunate, benefit of working with her at Exer Urgent Care. Liz has got just a huge background, a lot of experience.

[00:01:53] Todd: People rely on her to give them guidance, whether it be getting at UC Berkeley or at a brand that she's working at. So I'm super excited. Liz say hello. We're happy to have you here today.

[00:02:03] Liz: Hi, and I'm taken aback by the very generous intro. I'm just a marketing gal from Milwaukee. So happy to be here.

[00:02:10] Liz: Thanks.

[00:02:10] Todd: A super successful one, no less. all right. So today we're going to talk about a few different perspectives, mainly around the idea of really what is the importance and how is it developed between client and agency relationships? again, we had the just tremendous fortune of, having a relationship with you and our work, environment.

[00:02:31] Todd: and now we're, still talking to you. So that's a Testament to how well it went. So I want to talk a little bit about that, and I think one of the first things that I would love for you to just share your perspectives around, Kelly as well, is The first thing that I think is most important, which are the values of the relationship.

[00:02:47] Todd: A lot of people talk about values, whether they be their personal values or business core values. , sometimes those values might not align, and that might make things very difficult. when you came into the picture with us, you didn't know who we were. You didn't know what our values were. And so I think, the ones that really stood out to me in the beginning that you allowed us to demonstrate, but you also extended to us.

[00:03:10] Todd: Was an idea of a highly collaborative and trustworthy relationship right out of the gate. You gave us the ability to be to demonstrate trust and collaboration. Can you talk a little bit about in your role and when you're working with brands or when you're teaching people about marketing, some of the core values around trust and collaboration, how important are those in the beginning of a relationship?

[00:03:34] Liz: I mean, I think it's like any relationship you have to go into it with, an open mind and a lot of curiosity. and I think that idea that everyone is there for the same goal, we all want to succeed and we all want to help that brand or that company or that product or whatever succeed.

[00:03:51] Liz: And so trusting your partners and giving them that ability to be. innocent until proven guilty. I'm a firm believer in that. And Hey, let's not get to guilty if we can absolutely positively help it in any way, which that could mean back to that collaboration point, like, let me give you more info.

[00:04:10] Liz: Let me be transparent. Let me share you, you know, what's happening on the business that is affecting some of our decision making or, why we're struggling with this solution or something like that. So, those absolutely are the two. Major components, I would say, and drivers of any relationship and partnership that's going to be effective with.

[00:04:29] Liz: An agency, but even internally to, you have to open yourself up to that trust. You have to give people that opportunity to, surprise and delight and give them those materials and through collaboration to get there.

[00:04:42] Todd: A lot of people say trust is earned and not given. So what kinds of things did you feel like were demonstrated in the beginning that.

[00:04:51] Todd: Maybe earn the trust. It sounds like you were going to give the trust and hope to not be proven wrong later, but what sort of things do you look for in a, relationship that demonstrates trustworthiness or builds upon trust out of the gate that you can go, gosh, man, that's solid. I can really, I can build on this.

[00:05:08] Todd: I can trust these people.

[00:05:09] Liz: Yeah, I think if people are going to it in an agency client relationship, our very first introduction, we had a standing meeting, and it was a lot of reporting and, factual data. and I think we worked really hard to push it to another place where we weren't just talking about the what's, but we were talking about the wise and then what else we could do to get it to another level.

[00:05:31] Liz: And I think we got there together. I would love to say, you know, that was just my idea and I wanted us to get there. But I think again, back to that collaboration, it was like, great. I can go report these metrics, So what's the, so what, so building that trust and really being able to ask and answer each other in that.

[00:05:50] Liz: Hey, so what, those are great results. Oh, my cost per click is great. My CPA is awesome. My impressions are down, up, whatever, but my spending is down, up, whatever, so what does that mean and how do I make it better? Take it to another level. And for me, Importantly, knowing that this was the major part of my budget and where the most amount of dollars were going, it was critical for me to figure out how honestly to make you guys successful, to make me successful.

[00:06:16] Liz: So a lot of the conversations we had over and over were like, help me help you help me help us, you know, it was that whole Jerry Maguire all over in, A lovely fruit salad, if you will.

[00:06:29] Kelly: Yeah, so I'd love to talk about, obviously our engagement was very unique in that, it wasn't a linear journey and there was a lot of offline and a lot of factors in the business.

[00:06:38] Kelly: that weren't always driven by media. I'm going to lead the witness here a little bit, but I know we tackled a lot of how do we take. Online results and digital results and. How did you really package those up? And I know you had a board to talk to and some people that convinced it.

[00:06:53] Kelly: what? We're seeing successes here is making a meaningful difference in offline and health care related information here. Can you talk a little bit about how that went about tying again media and digital results into, We weren't selling shoes. Where is a direct linear transaction?

[00:07:10] Liz: we should really talk about the fact that extra urgent care is a an urgent care provider and we had About let's just call it 30 clinics at one point before a merger, which we should probably talk about at some point two, where we basically doubled the clinics. but we were dealing with 23 separate brands, and bringing those into the mix, but I'll pause on that for a moment.

[00:07:30] Liz: And they can probably edit that out or save that for later. I think that when you talk about urgent care and we were working with extra urgent care at the time, you can't necessarily drive urgent care visits like selling shoes, you can't have the hot new shoe on the market or like, Hey, go cut yourself and get yourself into urgent care.

[00:07:49] Liz: there really is that need, but there was also some other. opportunities for some primary care replacement that initially we were not allowed to talk about because of some business relationships we had. So we really have this bifurcated strategy of how to cement ourselves and be Absolutely accessible when it was urgent and the need was there through paid search and make that the most effective and all the tools we could like P Max and everything else and sees anything and everything that was coming into play.

[00:08:20] Liz: Test it. We did a lot of testing, but the other piece was laying the groundwork with awareness so that when you did hurt yourself Like you need a plumber, who are you going to remember so that we had enough awareness in the market and how we balance that in a steady, mix in terms of spending, but also evaluating the effectiveness of all those channels.

[00:08:39] Liz: So really looking that. Very myopically on a weekly basis is what we did. I would call. I don't know how you work with all your other clients, but I was definitely a little bit high maintenance in the let's really dig into this every week. And I hope I that with being.

[00:08:56] Liz: Very, very appreciative and generous with my support and, freedom to, let these experts in all of these different areas of paid social programmatic display, paid search. do what they do best and really come and bring some ideas to the table. So I hope I'm answering your question and that I think it's allowing your partners to experiment and then in our unique challenge We really had that bifurcated strategy that we had to implement every day.

[00:09:25] Kelly: Yeah, definitely are. And you're leading it right to where I wanted to go, right? Because one of the things that you said is that help me help you help us. that was something that I thought went really well in our engagement, which there was different layers of the organization. There was our relationship and our engagement and being able to really have some trust and some idea back and forth where with each other.

[00:09:46] Kelly: there was some challenges of what if we did this and and really making sure that we were exploring everything and not taking anything for granted, but then working with you to say once we've agreed on something directly in that responsibility that then has to be taken up to the board level and approvals and budgets talked about and gone to bat for and then after the fact, there had to be that validation where we would take very, very complicated bid.

[00:10:10] Kelly: Results and metrics and stories that would be very long. And we had to distill it down into something that was on one side, very powerful and compelling, but on the other side, very simple and short and concise, which was always a big challenge. So. I think that collaboration between us working together to be the filter to get the buy in and the trust, is something that struck me is really powerful.

[00:10:30] Kelly: And I think goes to show with the client agency relationship how important there is to not just be an order taker and a service provider, but actually be able to say, look, we are rowing together in the same direction as a team. And that means that you'll have ideas and we'll have ideas and there's discussions to get to the right results So

[00:10:49] Liz: absolutely and I think we worked really effectively in that.

[00:10:52] Liz: I mean we had an incredible rhythm and it was a weekly touch base really optimizing, each one of these channels not just from a media perspective or geography perspective, but also creative Considerations. and I know initially we really just talked about the media piece.

[00:11:08] Liz: but soon quickly, I was very interested in the creative work and how we could, better amplify and solidify this brand in a competitive market, and give it a brand personality because we had just rebranded and hadn't launched it. And what did we mean and how could we do that effectively, creatively using the media to its, best possible extent.

[00:11:30] Liz: With my very internal limited resources, and I thought your team person for person is worth that. I almost don't want to ever mention their name. So they never get poached because pound for pound, they are worth their weight in platinum. And then some, I would absolutely say that, I thank you for giving us the best of the bunch and giving us that attention on a weekly basis.

[00:11:53] Liz: It literally changed. the business model. And when you talk about bringing results to the board, you're absolutely right. it's asking for money and it's asking for spending and then proving that you're spending is working effectively. But you're always going to get somebody saying, Oh, but let's explore TV or let's explore out of home or let's explore radio and some of the channels that still are a little elusive in terms of tracking.

[00:12:14] Liz: You know, and if I have 5 to even spend on them. Organic social, I know that I could get like two leads for that. So don't know if I want to do that, you know? And so what's my ROI there versus where I can prove that it's working?

[00:12:29] Liz: I would also say that, you really brought, keen as a solution to us. And one of the first things I did was investigate Keen as a resource. So it was a pretty expensive proposition for our scrappy little budgets, but it was really worth it to us to answer a question in some form, finally, how can we prove that paid media drives urgent care visits, you we had to push them because they weren't used to working in a business model of our.

[00:12:57] Liz: sort of scope, they were used to more, package goods and retail sort of solutions, but, you know, we drove 23%, we could absolutely prove that. Our paid media drove 23 percent of visits minimum at a minimum, and that's really, really significant. And I think that gave us some breathing room to go ahead and, really, create a media strategy plan and execute, as we saw fit and switch and pivot when we needed to without a lot of approvals.

[00:13:29] Kelly: Hey, make a really good point there. Working with Kings was really interesting because we had had a history and work with them in a more traditional model. And one of the things that I really appreciated working on it with you, is because we were applying it in a less direct way. Something that we weren't necessarily used to.

[00:13:43] Kelly: It wasn't consumer packaged goods. It was different model. And definitely push them a lot and you made sure that you challenge some of their status quos. And I think Ultimately, it has since enhanced our engagement with them to be able to take what they built out of the box, but also understand that there's some customizability to it.

[00:13:58] Kelly: There's some application to challenge. Is this the right lifetime model? Is this telling the right signal? and we've since been able to engage with them and, and again, create a little bit more customization within these models that are so important in that reliability. I think a lot of that was down to, a lot of the conversations that you had with us and then also with them direct, In asking, is this the right way to look at it? What does this really mean? whereas I think a lot of times it would just be sort of out of the box again. That's that collaboration. That's drilling in deeper. That's putting in that time and energy in that work. that isn't always necessarily done.

[00:14:29] Kelly: I'd love to ask you about one other thing that you'd mention it. And again, appreciate the shout out to our people. it's certainly what we build everything and why we get to do what we do. but it brings up another good point. One of the interesting things about our engagement is. Technically, you sort of inherited us when you took, took the role, you didn't necessarily go through our pitch and, and sort of sorting us between others, which again, we were grateful for and hopefully we justified keeping us around and why we were there in the first place.

[00:14:51] Kelly: But, you mentioned the people that ultimately do the work, and this is the conversation that Todd and I always had, which is digital media is. For the most part of a relatively even playing field, everyone, if you have the knowledge base and experience, you can access the tools. You can access the things that you need to.

[00:15:07] Kelly: Someone will sell you the licenses all of that. And so really what it comes down to more often than not is the actual people that are doing the day to day work. And so when you're going through a pitch your history, and obviously you get your sales people and your new business people that are Promising you the world and claiming all their awards and you're going to get the best of everything, all of that.

[00:15:26] Kelly: How do you go through sifting through the reality and the noise of a pitch and deciding who is just promising me what I want to hear to get me to sign on the bottom line versus who's actually going to show up and do what I need because obviously. All these brands hire agencies and it doesn't always work out.

[00:15:44] Kelly: You hire a new one six months or a year or two years down the road. Cause you don't necessarily get what you want. I'd love to hear your perspective on how you go from being promised everything you need to hear to what your real engagement experience is like what that's been.

[00:15:57] Liz: it's so interesting because we just went through this with technology solution for the business, and I won't go into detail.

[00:16:03] Liz: But yeah, the salespeople are amazing. And literally, I prepared tons of examples, like here's how the workflow works. Works now and can you recreate this? Yes, yes, yes. Could you show me an example where you've recreated it so I can get close and I can visualize how it can Work and all that great stuff.

[00:16:19] Liz: Sure. Sure. Sure and then you get passed along the way I think it really is important to say could I meet the people who are working on my business day to day? And I think it's also challenging because some clients will say I only want to work with the principles, and that's not possible, I mean, that is a luxury, um, that not every agency can afford.

[00:16:39] Liz: And especially if you have scrappy budgets, or challenging business model or something like that. so you want to let those principles do what they do best too. So I think it's fine to say, can I meet the people who Be working on my business day to day. Can we have a quick conversation? You might know about my vertical.

[00:16:56] Liz: You might know about healthcare. You might know about retail. You might know about technology or education or all these, verticals I've worked in, or you might not and have a real, like, where do you think the challenges are going to be? Yes. Cause you're right. You can apply, particularly in a media agency, you could apply a lot of solutions to the business and you can look at like, GA and you can check stuff out.

[00:17:16] Liz: You can be probably. Okay, but you're not going to get that passion or that energy unless you're engaging and you are a great business partner to, this is not everybody come to me. I'm the client. Literally, you've got to put in that time and energy to educate, to share. Not just like, Hey, here's the issue.

[00:17:36] Liz: We've got scrappy budgets and we're small, but like, Hey, here's what's happening, you know, with the flu, by the way, I hope everybody's got their flu shot. by this date or whatever flu season's coming, everybody, just updating people on what's happening through the lens of your business to keep them engaged and thinking about you, even when they're maybe working on another client, I think is important.

[00:17:58] Todd: I'm glad you brought it back to that, Liz, cause I was going to ask, I was going to take it back to the Jerry Maguire, help us help you. The one thing that really stood out with you, that I think our team just fell in love with was your willingness and your openness and almost this sensibility of being humble that you were right.

[00:18:17] Todd: Like most agencies would feel like you're the CMO. We just have to bow down to you, but you put yourself at the same level eye to eye with us. And you put yourself in the game with us as if we were just all in the same org chart and Kelly and I talk all the time about we are the principles and we are part of the workforce org chart that you get to work with.

[00:18:35] Todd: That's just unique to our business. Not all agencies can do that. that level of accountability, I don't know. if you're a CMO and you're speaking on a panel at a conference to a bunch of other CMOs, what would you tell them? About how you think they should behave from a level of accountability and, participation with their agencies in order to get the greatest value out of the agency and not come across as that.

[00:18:58] Todd: I'm the CMO and you should bow down to me.

[00:19:00] Liz: Yeah, I mean honestly leave your ego at the door. we're all here as I said to get the job done we're hopefully all working towards the same goal and because of that help you help me help you the better I do the better.

[00:19:12] Liz: Hopefully you will do the better crafted our media strategies and execution looks like the more money I may, get in a budget and the more I'm going to send your way. Also, I'm going to hopefully be more grateful, but I think it really is that trust being honest, being really, really transparent with what's happening and what you're trying to achieve.

[00:19:32] Liz: There is no sense in withholding info. I don't know why anyone would ever do that. I should mention I worked on the agency side for the first part of my career, both in San Francisco and in New York. Um, so, I have that agency sort of experience and remember what it was like, sometimes people would be just total jerks and it's not motivating and it's not fun.

[00:19:54] Liz: And their projects are maybe the last ones I don't want to work on at the end of the day, or I want to give to my team to work on at the end of the day, but the people who are grateful and thoughtful, And again, transparent sharing information, take your agency on the journey with you. I mean, don't burden them if you can help that, but give them enough info so they can be successful.

[00:20:14] Liz: I think that really comes into play when we merged, when XR merged and we took on another 27 clinics, but again, 23 brands within those clinics. And so how do we add them successfully to the mix in a fourth quarter? that is an expensive media quarter that is right around the holidays that is in the healthcare world flu season.

[00:20:35] Liz: And how do we do that successfully with the same amount of budget, basically double the clinics and now 24 brands. And guess what we did that and had flat budget, lower impressions, but the best metrics ever, the best CPA, the best CPC, the best engagement rates. and if I think about 23 percent of the visits are driven from that, I'll bet you it was even higher during that time period based on the effectiveness.

[00:21:05] Liz: And we achieve that by. Working so diligently throughout the summer and doing all the testing during the summer where there was less risk and being able to really like bring that to fruition at the holiday. We didn't know we were going to merge when we started all the testing. We helped our future selves.

[00:21:22] Liz: We did all that testing and then we were able to benefit from those strategies when it came to the fourth quarter and had kind of a daunting challenge, I think, in front of us. So I congratulate all of us and the team behind us, really, because they worked their tails off and did that. I appreciate

[00:21:37] Kelly: that.

[00:21:38] Kelly: the spirit of the topic, That the client agent relationship, you said a couple of things that brought kind of two topics in my mind and I'll go one by one here. So, in terms of being able to align with the people and ask those questions of who am I really going to be working with?

[00:21:51] Kelly: What does my actual team look like? I'd love to get your thoughts because Todd and I talk about this all the time, this idea of big fish and small ponds and small fish and big ponds and, and what that means. again, I have two parts to this question. One is going to be fee and cost related.

[00:22:04] Kelly: I'll save that for the second one. But as far as what is your opinion on aligning yourself as a client, your size of budget, your size of needs with the size of agency and the profile of agency, to be able to work with the right people versus again, you can go with a big, well known brand agency, or you can go with a small boutique agency, or you can go somewhere in between like.

[00:22:25] Kelly: How do you navigate the matching yourself as a client with the right agency profile?

[00:22:31] Liz: You know, that's a great question. Cause I've, had to figure that out when I've rebranded companies, you know, and I'm looking for big branding solutions and campaigns and things like that too, as well as media. because everything is separate these days.

[00:22:43] Liz: I think you do want a little bit of the attention and I'd rather be, One of those clients that doesn't get eaten up or swallowed or ignored. I'd rather be a little bit of a big fish in a little pond so that I'm important to the agency. Truth be told, but sometimes when you're a little fish and you have teeny budgets that keep getting challenged, you have to be really thoughtful.

[00:23:07] Liz: And so, I would never really just go for a name brand agency. I would always go with the people I'm working with. I'm going to tell you right now. So don't rake me over the coals and negotiations, but anywhere I go now, I will always try to work with you guys. Again, this was the best working relationship I've had with any media agency in my decades and decades, career and decades and decades as a CMO and chief brand officer.

[00:23:30] Liz: so hopefully I will not be too small or too big to work with your team again. back to the question, too. I think you do need to figure out what they're, you know, as Todd mentioned in the beginning, what their values are. And I tend to move really quickly because I like to iterate and pivot when we need to.

[00:23:46] Liz: And really, growth is all about moving quickly. So you can see those results. We don't have the luxury of doing it so slowly anymore. So speed is important for me when I have clients that can or agencies rather that can move quickly. Sort of at the speed that I move, that's important and be responsive and available.

[00:24:05] Kelly: So you weren't prompted for that answer, but that's kind of where Todd and I always end up landing a lot is never really understand why a brand would want to be a small fish in a big pond. I get the name brand recognition. I gained the cache to that. But at the end of the day again, you want to matter and you want to be important to the people that are in there, you know, because again, when the time when push comes yourselves, you want that attention, which leads me in sort of my last question, which is around pretty challenging conversation that happens between clients and agencies these days.

[00:24:31] Kelly: that is fee and compensation and structure. And right. from the brand side, you're looking at what's the right profit and loss number for you guys. And on the agency side, we have resource allocation, all of that. And this concept that Todd and I are always debating and going through is, I try and apply this in my own life, which is.

[00:24:47] Kelly: Yes, you can grind down and get your fees down and really push it down. But I always would want to be someone's priority, ? Like in my perspective, I would always want to be the person that when I have a need or a fire drill happens or something that's going right, everything's dropped because look, this is the bread and butter, right?

[00:25:02] Kelly: This is go to. And I know there's a balance to that, but I'm curious as to how you think about your role as a CMO to get the best deal, but also get the right service and the level of attention and how you balance those two kind of. Oftentimes competing components. Cause I don't know that when someone is saying I can get a lower fee or I can get a less fee that it's always thought about, but what comes with that is there sacrifices by getting those extra few percentage points down when, again, when the chips are down and the needs are coming through, and especially when you juxtapose that with size of agency and there's competing one bigger client is spending more money, are they going to get the 18 versus the B team?

[00:25:38] Kelly: I'm leading a little bit, but I'm curious what your thoughts are around that.

[00:25:41] Liz: Yeah, I mean, I think you pay for what you get, and my dad would always say buy quality and you'll never be disappointed. That doesn't mean I'm going to go out and get a really expensive agency. And again, to your point about that cache with some big name brand shop, nobody sees the label on the inside of your sweater.

[00:25:58] Liz: They just know if it looks good and if it seems high quality and if it fits you well, So nobody needs to know that so and so launched my media campaign in some ways. If it's effective in the market, that's what matters. Right. And if it's driving results, that's what matters. So I think that's important just to note, I think in terms of the money.

[00:26:16] Liz: It's always smart as a CMO. You've got to ask, and you know, I asked you if we could get lower and what else we could do to shape costs. But I also had that conversation with, a more creatively oriented agency that did a lot of our PR and social media work, which I cut down significantly, really significantly so that I could spend more money in media because that's driving results.

[00:26:38] Liz: I can have that conversation with, maybe a vendor who's doing a lot of our collateral or tchotchkes because that's a very different solution, and that has less importance in a lot of ways than the driving the media dollars and being thoughtful and getting the team. You also don't want to make.

[00:26:53] Liz: People resentful. You have to think about it like a relationship and dating, are you going to go to a, you know, your first dinner and you're going Dutch and then, negotiate over, well, you had that appetizer, but you had two glasses of wine or whatever. I mean, that's not cool.

[00:27:07] Liz: You either split it down the middle and call it a day. Like, I don't want to date you. So I think of it the same way, in a relationship. Let's figure out how we're going to work this out and let's just make sure we're getting the bang for our buck and you're right you want to have that group be on call and be available for you but I think part of it's the money but part of it's also like are you treating them fairly are you treating them like people are you having those questions.

[00:27:32] Liz: conversations with them where you recognize that,

[00:27:34] Kelly: Lisa looks tan or something or she had a vacation She's wearing her hair down or whatever the deal happens to be.

[00:27:38] Liz: Anyway Yeah, I think money's important but negotiate where you need to and for me you guys were such a critical business partner I considered you part of my team sometimes like You You were the people I talked to more than anyone else on my very small team on a daily basis because I had so much work to do and, preparing for a board deck, for instance,

[00:27:57] Kelly: I think he used the right word in there that I think Todd and I always try to get to, which is, it's fair, of course, as a client, you don't necessarily want to be someone's cash cow. That's maybe not right. but you also maybe don't want to be so ground down that, every little thing becomes out of scope or a big problem. And I think when you come down to fair, it's. You want to be a healthy priority to it, but you also want to make sure that you're getting that value exchange, What you're getting for the money you're spending, is worth more than whatever that, check is. You shouldn't feel, Todd and I always joke, no one should be upset about whatever check they're writing us because they should feel like they're getting more than that in return. so yeah, no, I think that word fair is really good, but I think that sometimes gets lost when someone's waving, you know, a 5 percent media fee or an 8 percent media fee.

[00:28:39] Kelly: It's like, wow, can I really get that? But. you also said what we all say, which is you do ultimately you get what you pay for when all things are said and done. It's no different than anything else in life. So

[00:28:48] Liz: I would say that,our working relationship and how we did our back and forth and just updates.

[00:28:54] Liz: And, let's dig deeper into this and let's really talk about some testing scenarios and, all the resources that you guys pulled in when we needed them. I mean, that was basically just so incredible and so important. And I don't know that I could expect that or, would have enjoyed that with any other agency.

[00:29:11] Liz: I think we really grew to that relationship, but honestly, the gift with purchase really is the personal relationships that we had and really having that camaraderie and really like our Thursday meetings were my favorite meetings of the week. Looking forward to getting on a call. How's everybody doing a few minutes of that.

[00:29:28] Liz: And then let's jump in. But we were making changes and we were driving business and we were like seeing the results. It's like, redecorating a room or painting. It's like, you can see the changes. It's amazing. You know, And then when I would do the quarterly analysis and step back i'm like, do you guys even know You're looking at it weekly monthly, but I just stepped back and did a quarterly and like congratulations Look at you, you know, it was great.

[00:29:55] Todd: Well, thanks for sharing that liz. that all did work to that level of degree, I guess, as a testament, you know, the work that you were, shepherding along with us is up for top three finalist award of, the performance, campaign of the year through media posts. I think that's a kudos and a testament to.

[00:30:13] Todd: The relationship and that's sort of where I want to leave this where we started, which is agencies get hired by clients and brands hire agencies all the time. I don't know how often the relationships blossom as well as the 1 that we've had. and I think as a testament to that, the work excelled.

[00:30:31] Todd: I think if our relationship would not have failed. Functioned on those values of trust and collaboration and clarity on what the goals were and the alignment of the team effort, I don't know that we would have produced such great outcomes together. So I think I want to leave it there that, marketers out there, you, need to form deep, deep personal relationships with your teams that are helping you, do what you need to do.

[00:30:56] Todd: And, uh, agencies, if you're not doing that and you're not putting that level of commitment. And to those clients, you should be if you're not getting paid well enough to do that, then you might need to go get paid more to do a better job. But, I think everybody can appreciate both sides of that.

[00:31:11] Todd: Liz, I can't thank you enough. you are a true talent a giant inspiration. you are somebody that Kelly and I are just waiting. to work with again. So we're excited for your future prospects. wish you well, thank you very much for joining us.

[00:31:26] Liz: Thank you guys so much. It was so fun.