Welcome to Contrary to Popular Opinion

[00:00:00] Todd: Oftentimes isn't so much the product, it's the celebrity or the influencer that's endorsing that product and so as a result of that and the just absolute proliferation of, of social media feeds on every device for practically every human in the world, it's become so universal that that's a way to communicate from a, celebrity sort of profile about a product

[00:00:21] Intro: Welcome to Contrary to Popular Opinion, a podcast hosted by IDE Digital. In each episode, we bring you provocative topics and novel perspectives around leadership, business, and marketing that defy the norms because exponential growth demands unconventional thinking and visionary action. So open your mind.

[00:00:40] Intro: And let's get into this week's episode.

[00:00:42] Kelly: Hey everyone. Kelly McGuire with Bougie Day Digital. Excited to talk about today's topic.

[00:00:47] Kelly:

[00:00:47] Todd: Hey everybody, this is Todd Kelly's partner. It's the second week of January. We're back to full steam ahead hair on fire. It's Tuesday. morning. Feels like it should be Friday already. so today, Kelly, we had some stuff to talk about around evolving content creative.

[00:01:07] Todd: Talk a little bit about brand authenticity, but I think, we'll spend some time talking about just content and creative and where it's going on the platforms and a little bit of a, poke into the influencer arena because it's still going strong. we have a startup in that space as well that that sort of sheds some light on our opinion about this area, which is fun to talk about.

[00:01:32] Todd: So let's dive in and talk about brand authenticity. we've often talked about brand, we've often talked about our opinion is that brand still very much matters. and it was sort of left on the table and the barrage of the, D two C, CAC and ROAS era of meta, where brand didn't seem to really matter.

[00:01:56] Todd: but everything we're reading and seeing now from every. Sort of marketing lens is, you know, saying, Hey, brand is, brand is the most important thing. It's, it's back on the table. so when we think about content and stories and creative assets that are out there, and there's, you know, AI woven into all of this, we think about consumerism, right?

[00:02:19] Todd: All the stuff that we buy that we're told to buy, that we're advertised to buy. do you think there's fatigue around, I don't know what used to be the really cool, really well thought out, well written, well scripted, well produced, authentic brand kind of content and stories. do you see or feel that that sort of gone by the wayside and, and maybe because of.

[00:02:45] Todd: Maybe because of AI making it so much easier and quicker. In some cases, probably not for the good, but some cases to produce and or the mediums, the formats, which we'll get into specifically around TikTok. has that just shortened and cheapened the idea of like quality brand authenticity and stories.

[00:03:06] Kelly: I think the concept of brand authenticity, I think it's just more evolved when I think about it. we've talked about this a little bit in the past, and this often always gets anchored into the purpose of brand and what it serves. And then that bifurcates for me into the idea of wants versus needs and the role that brand plays in there.

[00:03:27] Todd: let me ask you real quick, what do you think the purpose of brand or a brand purpose is? Like, if you had to define it in, in one sentence, what is it to you?

[00:03:36] Kelly: in one sentence, I, I mean for me it's, you know, brand is a, it's a consideration element when deciding to buy, and that's why want versus need is really important.

[00:03:47] Kelly: I think when I said this before, the idea of. If a product isn't singularly fulfilling a need, something you're gonna have to buy, and it, it's more creates the want, right? It's why does someone want a Birkin bag? Why does someone want Nike shoes? Why does someone want, you know, name brand, you know, shirts and things like that.

[00:04:08] Kelly: Like, yes, you need clothes, and so that you're gonna buy a shirt or pants. But then what the brand serves is the why us versus them. Or if it's not a need, if it's a luxury item, if it's, I don't know, a drone or something, you don't really need, but it's a want. It's, you know, that idea of selling the experience and the idea and, the biggest o other element it serves is belief, right?

[00:04:32] Kelly: Do I trust that? This is going to be a quality product that does what it says and does what it promises. Or is this sort of a fly by night sort of quick, fast fashion thing where it's gonna be cheap, you know, it looks amazing in the video, but it's gonna be cheap when I get it. You see all these things when you have like the team moves and the, the Alibaba and things like that where it's like, oh, this amazing thing.

[00:04:52] Kelly: And then there's funny videos where you get in, it's like nothing like what you saw and all of that stuff. And so there's, it serves, I think, different purposes in that way. It creates belief and trust in getting you over the hump of. Do I believe I'm going to get what's promised? Or is this, for lack of a better term, a scam?

[00:05:08] Kelly: I think it can create that group effect where you want to be part of something, everyone's wearing a certain brand or has a per certain thing, or there's a luxury item that you know, you, you wanna Rolex watch 'cause it's an exclusive club type thing. There's an element to those things. So I think it conveys quality and trust.

[00:05:25] Kelly: I think it conveys participation in a group or a group dynamic, and things like that. But I think for me, where the evolution of brand authenticity has come from is, I think for a while a lot of people really bought into sort of the. the background of companies, and you've talked a lot about like your Patagonias and like the, do good or, you know, there's the TOM shoes, the buy one give, that give one things.

[00:05:50] Kelly: And so there's just a lot of things that brand can convey and participate, but all of it is mechanisms for either, again, conveying trust in what you're really going to get or that participation in what the outcome's gonna be. And ultimately I think it serves as that deciding point between either if it's a want, do I really want this?

[00:06:12] Kelly: Is it worth my money versus what I could spend alternatively, or it's a choosing point between do I want this pair of jeans or that pair of jeans if I'm choosing between them choices. And that's kind of, I always distill it down into what are the mechanisms that these things serve and the idea of brand authenticity.

[00:06:30] Kelly: Again, it's one of a few emotional triggers that I think can be leveraged in a marketing capacity, right? there's always this thing where you can tap into humor, you can tap into cultural zeitgeist, you can tap into cultural things, you can tap into pulling on heart strings. There's all these things and brand authenticity, and really.

[00:06:50] Kelly: Creating belief and value and endorsement oftentimes is built around brand authenticity. Is someone else calling, you know, backing up the claims of the company versus it just being the, the company itself. These are all things that I think weigh into what changes a consumer's mind between. That's interesting.

[00:07:07] Kelly: Versus I'm willing to actually put my credit card information and buy That

[00:07:11] Todd: all makes sense. I think what I'm trying to define or poke at here question is. do you feel like I, 'cause I don't, I don't feel like the level of, and maybe it's just what I'm exposed to, so this is clearly an audience of one's opinion here, and, and it could be totally wrong.

[00:07:30] Todd: at a more broad scale, universal sort of thing. I don't feel like, when I think about brand authenticity and I think about. Brands and, there may be their agencies creating really cool authentic content or creative content. To me, brand is simply defined as it's the promise, right? Nike makes a promise about a certain aspect of of life that their products serve.

[00:07:57] Todd: Um, Louis Vuitton. Promise is a very specific promise relative to, you know, bags and luggage and, and accessories and things like that. And so to me, brands ultimately have to stand for the promise that they make to the consumer and, and or the belief, right, that you have in that promise. I don't know that I tend to see the authentic sort of.

[00:08:22] Todd: Storytelling. It just seems like everything's evolved to this much more fast paced short form, which we're gonna talk about. just sort of consumerism message of buy, buy, buy. And I don't see the, you know, I think about, let me go back to Louis Vuitton. because I do use Patagonia a lot, but I, there's a moment in time where.

[00:08:41] Todd: Leave it shot, a commercial for Louis Vuitton. I think it was called Journeys or something like that. I've played it for you before and a lot of people as an inspiration piece. And when I think of that, I think of like, wow, there's Louis Vuitton, a brand I would never buy, but there's a brand that I think does a brilliant job at, at creating this authentic presence and promise about what their product is.

[00:09:05] Todd: I don't know what they show up or look like maybe in TikTok or YouTube or anything like that at this current time. But I think back to those moments and I'm like, does that still exist or is it just, and that's really polished content, right? Like it's high dollar, high production value, you know, stuff.

[00:09:22] Todd: It's very aspirational. And now do we just sort of just get what we get? I don't know.

[00:09:27] Kelly: Yeah, I think when you put it that way, it makes me think of it. I, I, I almost would look at it as. Legacy brands, you know, versus challenger brands or luxury brands versus, brands that kind of serve a point of need.

[00:09:38] Kelly: And because where I think what you described still comes into play is when you talk about like a Louis Vuitton, for example. There's, I think there's two different parts, right? I think the short form and the quick kind of hit things that's to, create a little bit of awareness, a little bit of momentum.

[00:09:54] Kelly: That's to just plant something top of mind and be like, Hey, you're not thinking about us, but you, here's something that gets you thinking about us. What you're talking about, that really rich, deep brand investment and story, I think that's what creates brand value. And you always talk about, you know, you can look at two different things and a lot of people will pay for the label.

[00:10:15] Kelly: Versus, you know, like

[00:10:16] Todd: Louis Vuitton.

[00:10:17] Kelly: Yeah, right. It could be two purses that fundamentally might even be made in the same factory for all, you know, they're the same material, same everything, but you're gonna pay exponentially more for maybe the Louis Vuitton versus startup brand that has all the same things.

[00:10:31] Todd: Why is that?

[00:10:32] Kelly: But see, that's where that brand value element is, right? That rich, deep brand element, I think is how you build up brand value. And I, I think that's different than authenticity, right? Authenticity gets someone listening and believing that rich experience, that investment is why you're gonna pay more.

[00:10:47] Kelly: And that, I think is what. You have to invest in to get the status symbol of the brand or the exclusivity or part of the group, or part of the thing is you have to have that to buy into and to, to engage in those experiences and to create that, that mental anchor on this is what the brand stands for and what it means, and it's exclusive and you're part of it.

[00:11:08] Kelly: Those types of things. I think that richness of brand has to exist if you want the brand itself to play any kind of role in your pricing strategy or what people are willing to pay for. Otherwise, you're just going to be relying on utility, novelty, coolness, because that's another part of things that I think is becoming more and more in the shift in brand on authenticity is.

[00:11:31] Kelly: I think brand there's a bifurcation again between some brands are, I want to be part of the group, right? I wanna wear, you know, Patagonia 'cause it's part of that group. Or Louis Vuitton. 'cause it's exclusive. Like there's a part of that. I think there's a lot of like younger generations and, and people are coming up that look for almost the opposite.

[00:11:48] Kelly: That the more contrarian, the more outlier things, the things that feel. Cool because it's not as popular and well known and it's, it's more niche and brand. And so there's an interesting element of, there's so much noise and so much. Conformity within these legacy and known brands that you can almost also break through in going opposite of that.

[00:12:08] Kelly: But again, that, requires a certain level of creativity and oftentimes requires attachment to a personality or an IP or something that sort of lends its authenticity and, and credibility to the idea of it's both quality and, and outlier. So, so much strategy that goes into it, but at the end of the day, what your brand is has to fit.

[00:12:30] Kelly: It's placed in the market. It's, it's based on how much competition is in there, what people will believe in, what again, what endorsement and third party validation you can get, what price point you can charge, how much of a want versus a need is all these things factor in. But I would distill this down into the big thing is where brands still is really, really critical is if you want to sell on the idea of brand, then you have to invest in a lot of belief in building up of that brand equity.

[00:12:57] Todd: So I would define it this way. I would say brands authentically represent something. And so certain brands can historically say they authentically own. And the question or the debate, , I want to have is, is this, dying? Do modern, you know, brands that have come up in the last decade, do we think that this is still commonplace? So let me give an example. Okay. So Louis Vuitton, I think they authentically own luxury. I think BMW authentically owns performance. I think Volvo authentically owns safety. Toyota authentically owns value, right? Brands. I think they can authentically own that promise of safety or performance or value or luxury or whatever it is.

[00:13:44] Todd: I think what I'm trying to debate is, do we feel like that's sort of fading away with upstarts, new companies that have come on scene, in the lab? Like do you think Tesla, for example, do you think Tesla can authentically claim, put a stake in the ground as authentic as BMW does with performance or Volvo does with safety?

[00:14:08] Todd: I'm just using cars 'cause I, I know them.

[00:14:10] Kelly: I think that's a perfect example of what my answer is, right, is I think, I think where authenticity comes from has shifted, right? So again, the legacy brands you talked about, I think were very much the brand and the product quality and the history and all of that.

[00:14:22] Kelly: I think the vast majority of brand authenticity comes from attachment to personality. Tesla, Elon Musk, you know, you influencer brands, clothing brands. I think so much of brand authenticity is. Is personality driven and attached, or, or ip, right? It's gonna be attached to the NFL or Stranger things or something like that.

[00:14:41] Kelly: I think that's why you see so many products, Prime drinks coming through with, you know, the, the one of the Paul brothers, I don't remember which one. it blows up. Or, you know, the Mr. Beast Candy Bar or those types of things. I think so much is now is driven by attachment to personality as the driver of authenticity.

[00:14:58] Kelly: I think it's pretty hard. It, not impossible, but a lot harder to launch purely a quality product without any attachment to IP or personality and breakthrough and build up that brand again. It's not impossible. I think the road to doing that is so, so much harder and it's why everyone will just go to, you know, latest tequila brand, partnering with the rock or something like that.

[00:15:20] Kelly: I think that that is the path to recognizability and buy-in and trial is attachment to unknown entity and quantity. that kind of gets that buy-in more often than not these days.

[00:15:31] Todd: Okay. So I'm gonna pass on the second topic we're gonna talk about because we drew this one out, and I want to get into, you've created a perfect segue into the influencer thing.

[00:15:41] Todd: So you're, pontificating here that. the brands that created these sort of authentic labels or promises like we just talked about, that would be very difficult to do today. 'cause you said Tesla is associated with Elon Musk. Well doesn't mean anything.

[00:15:55] Todd: That doesn't mean performance or whatever. Maybe people would, would associate Tesla with technology or so. Volvo Safety, p BMW's performance is Tesla's technology. but what you're suggesting is that in the absence of literally a, human sort of association or celebrity level, like level association, it would be very hard.

[00:16:19] Todd: And I'm gonna stick with cars. There's other car companies that have started up, and I don't know if they've, if they've attached themselves to that, but we don't need to use cars. So. we've spent a lot, two years of blood, sweat, and tears, creating a social commerce platform because the idea that we had through just the lens of our everyday agency work was that influencers were reshaping marketing and how people buy, discover, and buy products and what consumers tend to attach themselves to.

[00:16:50] Todd: Oftentimes isn't so much the product, it's the celebrity or the influencer that's endorsing that product. And so as a result of that and the just absolute proliferation of, of social media feeds on every device for practically every human in the world, it's become so universal that that's a way to communicate, from a, celebrity sort of profile about a product that,

[00:17:13] Todd: That's how people now buy. So the idea that Volvo created this brand around safety, you, you wouldn't be able to do that today because you need the rock, or like you said, somebody like that to basically go out there and say, this is the next best car company because of all these reasons. So now it feels like what we're, and what we're going after is the idea that, you know, social commerce, the discovery of products, the.

[00:17:40] Todd: trust and the believability as you put it earlier, and potentially buying a product is not necessarily coming from brand authenticity. It's coming from the influencer that's endorsing it, which that's interesting to think about because that's a really complex behavior because that makes you wonder like, what, what can the brand.

[00:18:02] Todd: What can they really cling onto? what anchor, what foundation do they really have? If their brand perception is driven more by the influencer that's saying things versus what their brand authenticity really is. I, that's, I guess, where we're headed with this.

[00:18:17] Kelly: Yeah. I mean, I think it's a natural extension of sort of the digitization of life where.

[00:18:23] Kelly: you used to be able to go and discover, you know, there wasn't, it wasn't as easy to spin up a product and a supplies chain and a source and build products and ship it over. and there was a lot more retail where the point of discovery is you used to go walk around a mall and you stop in a store and you'd physically feel things and see things and it, and it was a store that put things together and, you know, there was end caps and, and highlights and things that.

[00:18:44] Kelly: That was your, your way of discovering and, and learning things and deciding for yourself in real time. You know, do I wanna buy this? Is this fit? All of those types of things. And there wasn't so many choices because, you know, it wasn't that, again, let, let's take the clothing for example, right? There just weren't that many clothing brands.

[00:19:00] Kelly: 'cause it wasn't that easy to start a clothing brand, right? You'd have to do a whole lot of legwork and, and all those things. And then things got really digitized and everything became online. And now I can't, as often my point of discovery isn't a tactile experience with it. I can't. Convey does, you know, what's the shape and the look and the feel and the, material and all of that as much.

[00:19:19] Kelly: And then, you dovetail that with the idea that the whole reason an influencer is called an influencer is because they can influence people to do things, right. They have a, believability and a trust in a mechanisms of storytelling that people will spend time absorbing and, and buying into.

[00:19:37] Kelly: And so that becomes a point of curation where. If I can't physically go in the store and experience a product. I can have someone else who has done that work, who has experienced it, who has vetted it out, who has, looked at it and said, this fits my taste and I like this and this is a good brand and I've enjoyed it and I follow this person 'cause I, you know, they fit my lifestyle, my taste, and the things that I care about.

[00:20:00] Kelly: And so their opinion, you know, is influential to me and therefore I can sort of. Use them to curate down some of the noise that exists. Right? If there's 10,000 clothing brands that I could consider, I'm not gonna go to 10,000 websites and figure them all out. Right? But if they're working with and spending their time because that's their business, like that's how they are making money and spending their time and, and really investing in that.

[00:20:26] Kelly: that helps me narrow down my consideration set, and it helps me understand, what is my level of belief. Now, the brand, the product still should be quality. They should still have a story. They, they, they're still an element of the decision point, but that point of discovery. Is now digitized and online, and oftentimes in this short form where it's almost like that product placement where I'm like, okay, this person who I look up to, I who I spend time watching their videos, I really, I laugh at them or I really enjoy their things.

[00:20:52] Kelly: You know, they're wearing this thing or they're, you know, they've taken the time to endorse it. And, you know, the theory is, is that they've participated in some way in, saying that I believe in this. That's the hope for the authenticity there Anyway, when there's that sort of connection. It allows me to discover it and then taking it from that point of discovery to completing the transaction.

[00:21:12] Kelly: That's a whole nother thing, right? Because. The fragmentation of the digital experience has gotten extreme as well, right? everyone loves Amazon 'cause you can do so much transacting in one place versus one by one, by one, by one by one, which is a really difficult way to do it. You have security and data issues living in all these places when you're putting in your credit card and all your information on all these other sites.

[00:21:33] Kelly: Do I believe in trust in the brand? Is it authentic? Is it coming from China? And so there's just all these pitfalls in the discovery and the online transaction experience, and then there's so much noise to break through. That's why I think influencer or creator, whatever you wanna call it, has become so important into that process.

[00:21:51] Kelly: Because if I wanna reach an audience, I need that backing of someone who's already made a connection with a group of like-minded people who are paying attention so that I can filter my message through them and kind of get that point of discovery versus the alternative, which we always go into address if there's not that much endorsement or differentiation.

[00:22:12] Kelly: You have to spend a lot of money on paid advertising and the full funnel of awareness. You have to recognize the brand. Then you have to get the point of willingness to buy and the shopping ads, and that becomes really expensive. Versus if you go through an influencer and it's really authentic and good content, you can generally get a good hit of momentum, many sales at once because people like to participate in group and community events, right?

[00:22:35] Kelly: If I'm have a, influencer that posts about a pair of jeans. I'm probably gonna have a hundred thousand people that are gonna see that and be exposed to it. A good portion of those are gonna be like, well, I'm in the market for jeans. I trust this person. I really like the way those look. Let me go ahead and buy those.

[00:22:52] Todd: How's that any different than the TV spot that Levi's would've run 25 years ago that had a reach and frequency of, you know, tens of millions on just traditional linear tv? The difference is. It's a Levi's commercial. It's the brand telling you the story versus, I don't know, a, a really high profile rodeo athlete who has millions of followers and is endorsing.

[00:23:21] Todd: Levi's, like that's such a difference.

[00:23:24] Kelly: Yeah. Well, what I would liken it to is, is the Levi commercial you talked about is probably either going to, they're probably gonna pay a celebrity to, to wear the jeans in it, which has a cost.

[00:23:34] Todd: Not always, not, no. Think 25 years ago, it would've just been actors, right.

[00:23:38] Todd: Hired models to wear the, clothing. There's. No celebrity.

[00:23:42] Kelly: Sure. So, but there's either gonna be some level of investment on that recognizability that, so that was the old version of it. Or again, you're gonna spend an insane amount of money running that commercial at scale and reach and all of that.

[00:23:53] Kelly: So the influencer, again, it's a much more focused version of that same thing. It is generating the awareness, generating it within a targeted group at a cost. But the big difference is, is there is a direct, there can be, and this is why we're building the tool that we're building. There can be a direct connection into when I produced that exposure through that entity and I got the organic lift of their following, as well as any paid backing to boost it further.

[00:24:20] Kelly: What are the transactions in a timeframe that happen very rapidly, and if it works, you can boost and expand that. The TV commercial was more speculative, it was more hopeful. It was planting a seed so that the next time you're walking the mall, you'll stop at the Levi store and you'll, go in and buy.

[00:24:35] Kelly: Versus the moment you see that TV commercial, literally being able to click on it and be like, yeah, let's buy that right here and now.

[00:24:41] Todd: That's what I'm arguing about. Brand authenticity. I would argue that. Back then, let's say 25, 30 years ago, when you're watching cable TV and you see a Levi's commercial, and then that weekend you're walking through the mall with your friends or your mom or whatever, and it's back to school shopping, you are gonna want a pair of Levi's because that's what's on tv.

[00:25:02] Todd: The models that are wearing it, you want to emulate. And so you think Levi's is cool and that's what you want to wear. And that was a very broad. Way of building a brand and brand authenticity, and that's all the consumer really had to buy into was again, that brand promise, that brand authenticity that they were able to create through mass media, print, tv, radio,

[00:25:24] Kelly: how would a brand that want that has a really good pair of jeans?

[00:25:28] Kelly: That isn't Levi's and can't afford the commercial, what do they do? How do they get their jeans in front of a group of people willing to buy them?

[00:25:35] Todd: So that was my very next question. And, and I do think this is a, as an evolution, because I think back to like, you go back as far as and before, but let, we can go back as far as like the 1950s, right?

[00:25:46] Todd: Think about, or sixties or seventies. Think about in the 1970s, Richard Petty and nascar, and. STP or Tide or, or one of these consumer packaged goods sponsors on a NASCAR car, right? It's tied to the driver. So that's the influencer that, you know, was the influencer back then. But really it was just like, Hey, they're gonna run a ton of TV for Tide detergent.

[00:26:09] Todd: And oh, by the way, you know your favorite NASCAR driver's driving the Tide car, but that. personality didn't have the capability to do what a personality has today. So then I segue that into your question, which is, if you wanted to start a Jeans brand today, here I'll use a real example, female startup business out of her garage, aviator nation, the brand.

[00:26:34] Todd: It's very popular now. I don't think they ever ran mass media. So if you had to start a brand today, if you were, that person starting the Aviator Nation brand or whatever you're starting today in your garage, how would you launch that brand? Would you run advertising or would you just immediately go straight to influencers and say that the quickest way to influence a specific persona?

[00:27:00] Todd: Is to pair my brand with the person who stands out. Most of that group, whoever that is, is that how you would start

[00:27:07] Kelly: or order of operations, I think is critical there. I absolutely would work on more of the groundswell. Personality driven, influencer driven momentum. And I would have concentration and I would, you gotta create that factor of cool or trend or whatever you want to call it.

[00:27:24] Todd: And you don't have the money for mass media, so you have to do it through a personality.

[00:27:27] Kelly: No. it's basically a new version of proving market fit. Do I have a quality product? Can I get people? Behind it. And when I get people behind it, can I get a SA groundswell of people that love it and enjoy it and I filling the need on it?

[00:27:41] Kelly: And then once you've created that groundswell, once you've got a little bit of buzz and a little bit of momentum, that's where the mass media comes in. 'cause now you're not relying on huge dollars to create the momentum, which is very expensive and hard to do. That's why you have Super Bowl commercials and NASCAR things and all of that.

[00:27:58] Kelly: You know, to buy your way from the top down. But now you're saying, I have proven that there is a group of people that this fits. You can identify if you go online, there's good reviews, there's good momentum, there's content on it. People are going to feel good if they're skeptical and, there's that endorsement to it.

[00:28:12] Kelly: Now my media dollars can create. More awareness that this thing exists with the backing that exists on there, and you can start to use those again, those built in channels of my brand, fits the lifestyle and the the messaging of these influencers who like what I do, who buy in my story, who, who back the product, and their groups and their audiences that they've spent all this time, the hundreds of thousands of followers that are looking to them and engaging with them.

[00:28:39] Kelly: You can leverage that and then you put dollars behind boosting that and expanding that. It's like building on a solid foundation versus just trying to randomly kind of pick things up on your own. So yeah, I would absolutely look at building that momentum, that community, that position in the market with those personalities and those endorsements and that sort of organic reach.

[00:28:59] Kelly: And then all of my dollars would go around boosting and, and expanding upon those winners.

[00:29:03] Todd: Well, I think that answers my question, which in my mind. Just to wrap up on this is that as I grew up in the seventies and the eighties and the nineties, you know the brands that I most associated with, I did so because they represented, you know, part of my lifestyle or interest or whatever, and it was because of what I felt that brand promise was and how authentic they were about that brand promise and not because some person on TikTok, is pushing up 50.

[00:29:34] Kelly: You can say that, but I guarantee sometime in your life you have been just randomly influenced by just someone you followed, maybe subconsciously or directly. Maybe that's not your norm, but there's no way that every single person you've ever made has been that considered, like there has been impulse things that you've been influenced to just be like, you know what?

[00:29:51] Kelly: I'll give it a try. That seems cool.

[00:29:52] Todd: No, what? What I'm saying is that's absolutely what happens now. That's how I discover and find products that have been valuable to me now, but that's not. How it was, and I think that's what we're landing on, is that it's really evolved and it all points back to social media and smartphones and scrolling feeds of content that, the past where again, mass media, tv, print, and radio was really the only way you had to discover a brand.

[00:30:19] Todd: and that whatever they conveyed is their, is their authenticity or their promise is what you. Had to choose to believe in or not. There wasn't some necessarily, in most cases, some celebrity or some local, you know, person to, to influence you. You just, you just fell in love with brands for those reasons, which is how I would fall in love with brands back then.

[00:30:39] Todd: But you're absolutely right now, I'd say probably 50% of the things that I discover and buy come through my social media feed, which is. Evidence and proof of what you're saying is that all these new things and ways that brands can reach consumers and again, I will go back to say I don't think a lot of, I don't think very much of any of it is authentic in any way.

[00:31:03] Todd: It just simply gets my attention, because the algorithm knows what I'm interested in. So for instance, right now I'm interested in sailing 'cause I bought a sailboat, right? And so my algorithm is feeding me all these sailing products. There's no authenticity to those brands. There's no brand belief, there's no brand loyalty, there's nothing.

[00:31:24] Todd: There's just like, oh, I, I need one of those, and here's one being advertised to me, so I'm gonna buy it, or I didn't know. I need one of those and now I want one of those. But it has nothing to do with the brand.

[00:31:33] Kelly: Yeah. Which is interesting because I think what, where the onus ends up getting shifted beyond just the, using some way to break through and generate the awareness is, I think the new barrier is less about.

[00:31:43] Kelly: how amazing the brand is necessarily. But it is more of the how many hoops do I have to jump through to go from discovery to completing this purchase, and do I believe it's a scam or legitimate? Am I willing to do I like this website enough to put my credit card information in

[00:32:00] Todd: website? It's right there In TikTok or Instagram?

[00:32:02] Todd: There's no website.

[00:32:04] Kelly: in certain ones, right? Or is it. Low enough price to where I, I wanna price shop it, or am I just gonna go ahead and say, go for it. You know, do I want to hesitate and research more? but yeah, I mean, I think the barrier of entry is more ease of purchase and belief in, if it's real or a scam than it is, you know, what used to be, you know, is it cool enough or anything like that.

[00:32:24] Todd: That's my point of this whole debate is that the idea that how brands had to build. To purchase in the past versus now is non-existent for the most part, because you could show me a part, you know, for a sailboat that does something that I didn't know or I do know that I need. And if it's in my Instagram feed and I click the shop now and I go look at it and the price seems reasonable and I know exactly what it's gonna do for me.

[00:32:50] Todd: Apple pay, double tapping 'em out. Right? Like there's zero brand experience in that case.

[00:32:55] Kelly: I do think there is a, I don't know what it is, but I do think there's a ceiling of price to that because at a certain level of. Pain to what it costs. Well, I'm not gonna buy

[00:33:04] Todd: a car that way.

[00:33:05] Kelly: Yeah, exactly right.

[00:33:06] Kelly: So, I don't know what the ceiling is, but there's also a delineation point between what I'm willing to be more impulse and chance taking on versus what is interesting. But I'm gonna have to research and di dive deeper and I want to know better. I, it'd be really interesting to know if there's studies to know really what that ceiling in consideration is.

[00:33:22] Kelly: Is it a hundred dollars, $500, a thousand? I, I, you know, does it differ by category? But I do think the willingness to sort of. Take a chance and a leap of faith in just, yeah, this is interesting, let's go for it versus now I'm aware of it, but I'm gonna need some follow-up, nurturing and some consideration before I'm really gonna pull the trigger on this thing.

[00:33:42] Todd: Well to close. Hey, you know, where a lot of that data is going to eventually get, generated and stored and would be usable to mine for that sort of research, a social commerce platform called social fair. I'll leave it at that. shameless plug. Alright. Good debate. I'm old school, as I always tell everyone.

[00:33:59] Todd: So I, I grew up with brands a different way than they are exposing themselves and influencing, purchases today. And I've now fell victim to the algorithmic purchase cycle of many, many things. but I, I don't think it's bad and I bought lots of things that have greatly, helped or enhanced or, or just given me pleasure.

[00:34:18] Todd: You know, hobbies or whatever. So,

[00:34:20] Kelly: but I'm sure you've bought things that haven't lived up to the promise either, so that's what creates a lot of the noise.

[00:34:24] Todd: I'm pretty particular, but yeah, there's probably been a couple things that I'm like, well, it's not exactly what I thought it was gonna be. good debate.

[00:34:30] Todd: Good discussion. if you're a brand marketer out there, if. Man, it's complicated. but we're here to help. So if you need us, let us know.

[00:34:37] Kelly: Yeah. Thanks everyone.

[00:34:38] Todd: Thanks.

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