Why Rest Feels Dangerous When Achievement Is Your Identity with Erin Burgoon

Jason [00:00:00] Dr. Erin Burgoon has a fear that she's carried for years. If she slowed down, like really slowed down, what if it's permanent? She's watched clients say in a different way, "If I lay on the beach for long enough, I'll never wanna get up, and that's why I can't stop."

Jason We get into a lot from there. IFS and the parts of her that show up when she has to choose between grit and avoidance What it actually costs to write a book called Joyful AF and still not be sure if she's really earned it And a moment near the end where she talks about wanting a body for as long as she can have one. Not to fix any flaw by any standard of beauty, but just to live.

Jason This is the living question

Jason Welcome to The Living Question. Here we have Dr. Erin Berger.

Erin Yes.

Jason They call you Erin so often, I'm like, ah.

Erin You, you can call me Erin. Okay. People insist on me calling myself Dr. Erin, and it feels very pretentious, but at the same time, I've been told I earned it, so.

Jason It's a good authority builder.

Erin Yeah, it is.

Erin That's

Jason for sure. Like, I have a friend who went from, like, just their name to doctor, and then their, their Instagram presence exploded.

Erin Oh, [00:01:00] interesting.

Jason Yeah, it makes a difference.

Erin Yeah.

Jason Yeah. So not only do you write a book called Joyful AF. Yes. Uh, we've got... I mean, I've known you now for, for so long. Yeah. So it's been incredible to see your journey, what you've been working on through the time.

Jason I mean, coaching itself is such a, it's a personal journey that you also get to, like, share with others, I feel.

Erin Mm-hmm.

Jason And so it's just incredible that we get to spend some time here and, and talk.

Erin Yeah, and so great that we live so close that we can do this in person.

Jason Yeah. And I had no idea.

Erin Yeah. A lot of people don't have any idea.

Erin I should probably advertise. I'm in LA, people.

Jason Yeah. Way to... I found you on LinkedIn. Yeah. I was like, "Okay, cool."

Erin Yeah.

Jason I'm gonna reach out to her.

Erin Yeah.

Jason Okay. So today, um, I figure we could start with, um, if you'd like to do, like, a little self-introduction, um-

Erin Yeah ...

Jason what you like or what you, what you do, and-

Erin Yeah

Jason so they can get a little, know you a little more too.

Erin Yeah. So, uh, I don't like to talk about titles, 'cause what I do is so, um- different depending on the day. So my [00:02:00] passion is really how to help people go inward, understand what's happening inside of them, and that, that inner world, how that can impact their outer world, right?

Erin So how they make an impact. So that could be anything from doing coaching with a leader who wants to make a bigger impact in their, you know, company or their, their job, or it could be someone who is wanting to have bigger impact with their family or their- Yeah ... their friends. Um, or even some of the work I'm doing right now is in emotional intelligence and helping people, um, really understand how their inner landscape and their nervous systems shapes how they interact with the world.

Jason Wow. Yeah. That last one is really near and dear to me right now. Yeah. Um, because only about a year ago did I discover the nervous system side of things. Oh. And I've, like, I've been into personal development since I was 18, and so [00:03:00] that's 18 years ago-

Erin Yeah ... of when

Jason I started, and it's like, and now realizing, like, oh, no matter how much you know, if your nervous system doesn't let that stuff through-

Erin Yeah

Jason you can't, you can never access it in the moment.

Erin Yeah. Well, and so much of what we are taught to do, um, whether it's in personal development or just, you know, in therapy or everyday life, it's, "Okay, change, change your mind, change your life," right? Yeah. So it's all about these, you know, cognitive hacks or these behavioral tools, and those are all well and good, but if your nervous system, as you said- Yeah

Erin is not regulated, nothing's gonna matter, and our nervous systems are responding at a very basic, you know, uh, is this a threat, is this not a threat level.

Jason Yeah.

Erin And it's not- It's prime ... and it's not logical. Yeah. Right? And so I love helping people start to understand, oh, what's happening in my nervous system when I'm doing X, when I'm having a meeting, or when I'm with my kids, and, you know, where did that come from?

Erin [00:04:00] Why, how is that trying to keep me safe from threat, and is it really a threat?

Jason Yeah. Yeah. And for those of you listening who are not familiar with, like, nervous system regulation and that kind of work, um, you're probably familiar with this kind, which is if you've heard the term ever, like, fake it till you make it.

Erin Yes.

Jason And, like, that actually in practice is a nervous system regulation because you go out there, you pretend you're something-

Erin Yes ...

Jason and then you don't die.

Erin Yeah.

Jason Right? Like, you're like, "Oh, I'm gonna be confident and walk into this room and act all confident even though I'm not confident inside."

Erin Mm-hmm.

Jason And that first time you're totally freaking out inside and you're almost dead.

Erin Mm-hmm.

Jason Mm-hmm. And then you survive. Mm-hmm. And so the next time you do it, maybe it's a little easier. Mm-hmm. It's a little easier. Or anyone who's done public speaking- Oh, yeah ... probably has that- Oh ... kind of feeling too, right?

Erin Yeah. I mean, it's, it's-

Jason But that's like blunt force trauma.

Erin That's sort of blu- Yes. I mean, something even, you know, smaller than that, just on the way over here, I've had a pretty frustrating morning working with some tech [00:05:00] issues and some family stuff going on, and just belly breathing into my seatbelt-

Erin Hmm

Erin helped me come to this interview, this conversation, in a much more relaxed way so I'm less reactive. I'm less... Even though I've gotten some tech since we've been here, I'm not flying off the handle because I just- Yeah ... did some belly breathing, and that told my nervous system, "Everything's okay. I'm safe."

Jason Yeah.

Erin I can be calm.

Jason Yeah. Yeah, I hear that.

Erin Yeah.

Jason Yeah. And so I, I wanna head into our first question.

Erin Sure.

Jason Um, because this is, this has been one that I've been working on, um, and really curious about. So... And, like, when, when we had- we're talking before recording, you had spoken about a few moments in your life where, where this decision was kind of, like, it was this kind of decision.

Erin Yeah.

Jason Um, so how do you tell when pushing through is the right kind of discipline-

Erin Hmm ...

Jason versus when it's actually avoidance of a harder decision?

Erin Ooh, that's such a [00:06:00] fabulous question, and I'm glad we're talking about the nervous system because, um, that's where I tune in.

Jason Hmm.

Erin So I have done a lot of work to, to understand what's happening in my body when I am making decisions, when I am either saying it's, you know, time to grit, time to push, versus, oh, this is me, like you said, a- avoiding something.

Erin And I have a very distinct- I, I, I'm trying to figure out how to locate it in a way that listeners can, can understand it, but I have a very distinct feeling, like, in my head-

Jason Mm ...

Erin when I'm pushing through and avoiding something. And when I'm, you know, it's more of this align, like I just need... It, this is the thing to push through.

Erin It's in a deeper place in my body.

Erin Mm.

Erin And so I've started- Interesting ... to learn to check in and say, "Where am I feeling this?" Um, and then also, can I check in? So one of my methodologies that [00:07:00] I'm so passionate about is called internal family systems, and if you've ever seen any of the Inside Out movies from Pixar, that's my-

Jason Someone was inspired.

Erin Someone was in- well, so yeah. And actually, they used, uh, IFS as a, as a lens for this. Yeah. So the idea being that we have all these little characters running around in us, and in, in, in the Inside Out movies, it's Joy and Sadness and Anger. Well, you can think of thousands of different parts. I've got a people pleaser.

Erin I've got, um, an overachiever. I've got a caretaker. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so, uh, I also like to check in with that, those cast of characters. I, I, I have conversations with them. I'm not... I don't have multiple personalities, but I learned to, to check in and say, "Okay, I'm feeling this thing in my body. Now can I also see, like, what is that feeling saying to me?

Erin Is it saying that I'm scared of something? Um, what am I scared of? Am I scared of slowing down, or am I scared of doing it?"

Erin Mm.

Erin And so the more I can go inward and have conversations with myself, I can get to [00:08:00] that sense of clarity. And I'm not always right, but I'm learning as I go more and more what's happening-

Jason Yeah

Erin in that, in that family inside of me.

Jason Yeah, yeah. I'd love to drop in on, like, a moment like that for you.

Erin Mm.

Jason And if you could describe, like, what decision were you facing and how, how you did kinda tune into that or not.

Erin Yeah. I'm trying to think of something that's more recent I mean, I want to say maybe a year ago I was feeling a, a lot of burnout around my business.

Erin Um, I was doing a, a lot of networking. Um, I was doing

Erin I would say 80% of my time was me trying to build my business, and 20% of my time was coaching. And I couldn't figure out, you know, is this just am I continuing to network and avoiding a bigger question, which is that my

[00:09:00] business or my professional life needs to evolve? Or is this just what we've been taught in the coaching industry?

Erin Like, yep, you've gotta be constantly building your business and s- you know, staying power, being able to continue networking and reaching out is what's gonna create success. And so I was really torn between the, like, okay, like, the best, the best businesspeople grit through, right?

Erin Yeah.

Erin Versus, oh, it's time to evolve.

Erin And so I had to really slow down, and I kept pulling tarot cards. I kept pulling oracle cards, um, 'cause in some ways just even pulling cards was me avoiding right? And I finally got to a place when I sorta went inward, got quiet, checked in with my body, where I realized, oh, there's something shifting in me.

Erin Something is coming. I'm afraid of not knowing what that is. Um, I'm afraid to slow down. I'm afraid to rest. We were talking [00:10:00] before about this, this blog I wrote about doing constructive rest. I was afraid of what happens if I, like, w- both literally and proverbially lay on the floor with no answers. And so of course I was just like, "I'm gonna keep going.

Erin I'm, I'm a doer. I'm gonna keep going." And so I finally realized, okay I need to rest. I need to slow down. I need to not know what's next because something is evolving, and continuing down this path is not the, the right path.

Jason Yeah. And so how did that show up in your body then? So, like, was it kind of like when you were doing things you felt this other push or pull?

Erin I felt like my head was like, "Keep going. Keep going," right? And the logic was, "This is how you build a business, and don't give up. Don't... You know, grit it out." Um, and I think I probably had talked to some other friends who were saying the same thing about this is how the coaching industry works or this is how just business works, right?

Jason Yeah.

Erin But then I was feeling this thing, like, underneath. It was in my stomach of like, [00:11:00] "Something's not right. Something's not right."

Jason Yeah.

Erin I'm afraid to know that something's not right.

Jason Yeah. And, and like, so if we bring the nervous system into that- Yeah ... right, of a, like a safe versus not safe.

Erin Yeah.

Jason Was your...

Jason What was your nervous system saying in that?

Erin Well, it was saying that to slow down was not safe.

Jason To slow down wasn't safe?

Erin Yeah. To slow down- Oh, okay ... was not safe. So for me, I have found living in my head, and I think this is true for a lot of us who are, you know, highly high achievers, intellectual, living in our head is safe.

Erin Yeah. We can logic our way out of it. Um, a lot of us who have created success by doing, doing, doing, it's like, "Just keep... Don't, don't listen here. Just keep going. Stay, stay up, up here," right? And the thing that felt unsafe, so the nervous system was like, you know, my stomach was feeling this churning and, like, something's not right, but the, the scary part is, like, if I slow down

[00:12:00] and I look inward, what if I find nothing?

Erin Mm. Or what if I slow down, and I've, I've had this thought many times over the years, what if I slow down and I'm permanently stopped? And I've had clients come to me for years with that same fear. Yeah. Like, if I go lay on a beach somewhere, I'll never get off the beach.

Erin Right.

Erin If I go lie on my floor not knowing what's next and try to meditate, what if I never get out of that space?

Erin What if it never comes? And so the, my nervous system was feeling deeply, deeply unsafe with the slow, and yet that feeling was growing and growing of like this... You gotta pay attention. You

Jason have to do it. I

Erin have to pay attention.

Jason Yeah. Yeah, like that fear is very real for me, too.

Erin Yeah.

Jason Like, like, um, I don't fear actually failing, but I fear that the failure was worthless.

Erin Mm.

Jason It, it's like I, I realized, I realized this only in the last, like, six months. Like, I was journaling one day and I thought like, "Oh, well, [00:13:00] um- Yeah, like if I try something, it's inevitable that there will be some failures, there will be some course adjustments- Yeah ... along the way, and that's just part of the game, right?

Erin Yeah.

Jason But at the same time, like, I'm... The thing I hate the most is that, um, that analogy of if you put a ladder against a building and you climb up only to realize it was the wrong building.

Erin Yes.

Jason And you're just like, "Shit." Right? Like-

Erin Yeah. I, I feel that.

Jason And so, like, I, I, I sense a, a similar frustration in the slowing down of like what if I'm slowing down 'cause of the fear of succeeding- Mm

Jason or like finally busting through. Oh,

Erin yeah.

Jason Um, versus like if I slow down and I, like... You know, my, my, my coach had said something to me. He's like, "Like, kind of just, just imagine it. If you were to really slow down-

Erin Yeah ...

Jason would you actually never get up?"

Erin Right?

Jason And I was like, "Well, no, I would get bored."

Erin Yeah, right.

Erin I have a coach say the [00:14:00] same thing. She's like, "If you're on the beach, what would happen?" I'd be like, "I can't sit on the beach for more than like an hour. What are you talking about?" But even then, even our logic brain knows, right? So your logic brain's- Yeah ... like, "Okay, yeah, I wouldn't stay stopped," but that doesn't mean our nervous system processes what our brain knows.

Erin Right. And that's why the nervous system becomes so interesting to get to know and to slow down and get to, get to be with- Yeah ... because, yeah, I know I wouldn't slow down. So then- Like here, you know here ... you hear. Right. Yeah. I had the same conversation with a mutual coach we know, Rich Litvin, about like if I were, you know, in a homeless shelter, he had the same situation, right?

Erin If he were in a homeless shelter, he'd be running it the first week, and I was like, "Yeah, that would be me, too." But when I go down underneath, what's really happening? Is it really that I'm afraid that I wouldn't get back up? No. When I get really quiet, it's I'm afraid that I wouldn't know where to go-

Erin Mm

Erin when I got back up, that there's nowhere to go to. Yeah. There's

[00:15:00] this fear for me of an emptiness. Like you were talking about the, the wrong building. Yeah. Like, what if I'm laying on that floor and I have my ladder, I'm, I'm ready to put it up a building, and I can't even see any buildings?

Jason Yeah.

Erin And that comes from...

Erin 'Cause my brain's always had the answer, and it doesn't, doesn't like not knowing.

Jason Yeah. So, so then part of it is that identity of always having the answer.

Erin Correct.

Jason So the identity might be scared of the same-

Erin Yeah ...

Jason or the part, we could say.

Erin Yes.

Jason Right?

Erin Yeah.

Jason Do you name your parts?

Erin I do.

Jason Oh, I name my parts, too.

Erin Yeah.

Jason That's funny.

Erin Yeah. I've, I... Sometimes I'll call them, like, Pleaser Patty. Yeah. Or, you know, just Joe. Yeah.

Jason Yeah. But yeah. I have

Jason Joe.

Erin Yeah. I have a Joe. I like to, I like to personify them, and I was just even the other day asking some people to, like, picture that, like, literally ha- like, having a conversation.

Erin What's the part's name? Like, how-

Jason Yeah ...

Erin what do they look like? [00:16:00]

Jason Yeah. Yeah.

Erin But yeah, it's, it's fascinating to, uh, really get down to, yeah, what is truly happening here?

Jason Yeah. So what was that inflection point for you where you went from being scared of the surrender and laying flat and resting-

Erin Mm ...

Jason to, "All right, we're, we're in.

Jason We're going in"?

Erin Yeah. Well, I, I wish I was, like, perfect and it was all smooth, but it wasn't. Right? So I actually, um, one of my wife's friends is a spiritual medium, and I was like, "You know what? I'm gonna talk to her and see..." Again, I didn't have the answer, so I wanted someone else to give me the answer.

Erin Yeah. I didn't like that I didn't know, right? Yeah. So somebody's gonna tell me.

Jason Yeah.

Erin And we had this call, and the whole call I was being a total jerk to her, being like, "No, this is not it. This is not it." I was just resistant, resistant, resistant. And then something middle of that call [00:17:00] clicked in me. Like, oh, if I'm being this resistant, I have to at least pay attention here.

Erin Hm. Yeah.

Erin And I remember even getting off the call feeling really grumpy. Like, "She didn't give me the answers. She told me to go rest. She's the one who told me to rest." I was like, "Ugh." And I said, "Okay. Well, what if I do this? What if I, I, I told myself that I could set a, an end date?"

Jason Hm.

Erin So I tried to make it a little longer than what felt comfortable.

Erin Then I said, "You know what? Let me look." This, my logic brain needed to, to work on this, and my logic brain said, "Okay. If I don't do anything for the next month, what happens?" And nothing, like my nervous system went, "Okay, we're okay. We're safe with that."

Erin Yeah.

Erin And so that's what I ended up doing is like [00:18:00] telling myself, "I'm gonna...

Erin I have a time bound on this."

Erin Yeah. "

Erin I'm gonna try this."

Erin Yeah. "

Erin It's an experiment, and we'll see how it goes. And if I still don't have any answers in a month, I can either say, 'Well, I've made some progress. Let me keep laying here. Let me see what happens.'" And I, I'm saying laying here 'cause I literally was laying on the floor

Erin Oh, nice

Erin trying to like do some stuff that I knew was really good and restorative. But I could say, "I can keep laying here," or the path I've been on is I can get back on that train any time.

Erin Yeah.

Erin Right? And so what I worked out with my nervous system was a, was a, a contract, a little experiment, and that really helped give that part of me that was so afraid of what if there are no buildings, this like, there may be no buildings, but you do know this building already, so you can go back up that ladder- Yeah

Erin if you need to.

Jason Yeah. [00:19:00] And so what happened after the month?

Erin I kept I kept in rest. Um, what's really interesting is something that this woman had said to me on the, the call about what I'm supposed to be doing in the world. I was so burnt out at that point that I just flat out was, again, being a jerk, and said, "No, I am not doing this.

Erin I am so done with this." And I, you know- Yeah ... at some point apologized. I said, "I'm not yelling at you. I'm just frustrated," right? "I'm really burnt out." And so I kept, I s- it was early last year, it was spring, I kept going. Um, I focused a lot on my family. I focused a lot on my, my own physical body, some other things.

Erin Some work came in here and there that was enough for me to just keep going. And then about a month and a half ago, so late December of this year, I went, "Oh, that thing that she [00:20:00] said, she's right. It's not exactly how she said it, but she's right and I'm ready for it."

Jason Mm. Could you share the-

Erin Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things sh- she was talking about was, um, like I said, I love internal family systems and- Yeah

Erin it's a therapy modality for the most part. I really believe it could revolutionize how people work in, you know, corporations and businesses. Everybody's bringing their own version. I call it, with my corporate clients, the inner board of directors.

Jason Hmm.

Erin Everybody's operating with an inner board of directors- Yeah

Erin that's running the meetings, right? And everybody's inner board of directors is yelling at each other. And so one of the things she was saying is, like, "I think you're supposed to be bringing this to the corporate world. I think you're supposed to be teaching it and doing workshops." And I was just, "Ar."

Jason Mm.

Erin "No. I'm burnt out." And then I realized, I actually got hired for a coaching contract, and I thought, "I'm gonna try this. I'm gonna bring in some of this," and my clients are loving it. And then I started to realize, oh, there's a

[00:21:00] bigger systemic thing. Like, there's a nervous system that's happening at each corporation.

Erin Each corporation has its own nervous system, and then each team within the c- corporation has its own n- nervous system, and each individual has a nervous system. And all those things are interacting with each other in ways that can be really beneficial and in harmony or not.

Jason Yeah.

Erin And so I started to have this idea of an integrated framework that is working at all three levels.

Erin Oh, wow. So corporate nervous system, team nervous system, individual nervous system, and bringing them all into alignment using coaching and some teaching and some tools. And so I'm, like, a- actually really excited about what I'm doing now. But I had to take that break. I had to let what was burning me out go away.

Erin I had to, I actually at that point when I was resting thought, "Well, maybe I'll just quit coaching and go make wine."

Jason Mm.

Erin And I, I let, uh, the ridiculous, uh... Not the ridic- They're not, it's not ridiculous go make wine, but I just let ridiculous possibilities come [00:22:00] into my mind to try to make sure I wasn't just gonna go back down the path that I had been on, because that was the path I knew.

Erin Yeah.

Jason Yeah.

Erin And so being able to, like, surrender and let g- We've talked about surrender before, right? Um, surrender to I don't know what's coming, I don't know if this is the right path. I'm gonna let different possibilities come. I'm gonna be in the discomfort of I'm not making as much money as I used to.

Erin I'm in the discomfort of I don't know where I'm going. And then what happened was the thing that was always there came back to me-

Jason Mm ...

Erin in a new way.

Jason Yeah.

Erin And I don't feel like I am begrudgingly going back on that, to the back, back to that other building, right?

Jason Yeah.

Erin It's like a new, new version of the building has formed, and now I'm in a much more curious space.

Jason That's awesome.

Erin Yeah.

Jason Yeah. And you mentioned in there, 'cause, like, what I would like to tap on is the cost, right? Yeah. So the cost of that decision to you. [00:23:00] Um, you mentioned, like, there is a, a hit in income.

Erin Yeah.

Jason And I, I believe that's temporary if you're-

Erin Yeah ...

Jason move into the corporate space again.

Erin I believe it's temporary, but there's more cost to it.

Erin So- Yeah, what costs- Yeah. So the, the finances are actually in some ways... I'm, I'm lucky, I'm fortunate because of the career I've had that taking some time off financially was not that big of a hit. Yeah. Um, the cost to me was actually the, the biggest discomfort was that for a while there in that rest, I didn't have a professional identity.

Erin I wasn't sure if I was g- Mm ... I was doing some s- some coaching here and there, but my main stuff for a long time was I was taking my stepdaughter to school and take, bringing her home, taking her to activities. I was doing the laundry at home. I was making dinner. I was doing the errands that we usually didn't have time to do.

Erin And so all of a sudden there was this very different shift of my identity, and as someone who has a PhD and has come [00:24:00] from, both my parents had PhDs and I have all these accomplishments, to be- N- I wanna, I don't wanna call myself a housewife, but to, like, be not having the professional identity anymore and having this other thing, it was so uncomfortable.

Erin Like, what's my worth?

Jason Mm.

Erin What's my value? And then thinking about I've got lots of clients who've had this same re- reckoning about, like, well, do I wanna stay in the corporate space, or do I wanna be a mom? And what does that mean about me? And am I valuable if I'm just a mom?

Erin Yeah.

Erin And there's a lot we can unpack there about just a mom, but that was the cost for me, was, like, this identity that I had built up around my value being around the professional side of me.

Jason Yeah, it's like the, your value was related to the income you could make.

Erin Right. Yeah. Right. And the titles, and I had been working on that for years. Status and authority. I'd been working on that for years in my coaching, but, like, [00:25:00] it didn't really hit in the same way until I let the possibility of my career complete- like, I let it completely

Erin I could, it could go. It, I could, it could burn down. I could not be that anymore, and once I let that go, and what if? Okay, I w- there's no buildings, right? The, the, there's no buildings because I'm just gonna be at home, and I'm gonna make sure that with my wife's very busy schedule and my kiddo's very busy schedule, that I'm the one that makes sure everything else runs.

Erin Yeah. What if?

Erin Yeah.

Erin And it was, it was a great, uh, reckoning for me, and it was a great also just like a bigger question, right? Around like how do we value people in society, and how can I be helping my clients if I stay in the coaching world? How, how can I help my clients reckon with this if I'm not willing to reckon with it myself?

Jason Yeah. Yeah, like there's the, the [00:26:00] stuff we learn or we practice on like the superficial level.

Erin Yeah.

Jason This was like now it's in the practice of it.

Erin Yeah.

Jason And it's so different.

Erin Yeah.

Jason Right? Like even, even in my experience when I was in my, this period of surrender as well, it was like what if I- Yeah ... like, uh, you know, like pr- provision and providing-

Jason Mm

Jason is, is something that's so valuable to me. Like, it- it's, it's like a part of my identity of like, "Oh, I need to provide."

Jason Mm-hmm.

Jason And when I was even surrendering that, it was like, well, what if? What if I-

Jason Mm ...

Jason don't provide? And I, I so feel that, that like tenuousness because it's like- Yeah ... an identity is like going to die.

Jason Yeah.

Jason And like your identity, my identity at that time, like he, he fought tooth and nail like- Yeah ... "Oh, heck no am I gonna go down." Like- Yeah ... this is so important. Um, and I found actually on the other side there was like I still

[00:27:00] provided, right? Mm. Like, there- there's still provision, there's still things, but it's like for one identity to like f- to be able to set down and let go of an identity without attachment to it anymore-

Erin Yeah

Jason it, it almost comes back more pure.

Erin Mm.

Jason You know? And that's what I kinda feel- Yeah ... as you're, as you're saying this too.

Erin Yeah. Well, it... And you build this confidence it sounds like in your nervous system. Like, "Oh, I-" If no matter what I do, I'm still gonna provide. I can provide from a place of grit and I have to figure it out, or I can provide from a place of I've surrendered and something else comes through me, right?

Jason Yeah. Yeah.

Erin Yeah.

Jason And now not only are you moving into providing, like, a service, right?

Erin Yeah.

Jason Um, but you also practice providing as the homemaker.

Erin Right. And that's also a great thing, right? Yeah. Is what are we defining as providing? And, you know, part of it, too, comes back to what is [00:28:00] our nervous system deciding is safe or unsafe, right?

Erin Yeah. So if I don't provide, what does that mean? Are we gonna be homeless? Are we going to be, um, out on the street, or are we actually okay? Right? But what happens, right, is our nervous system thinks that if we don't provide or we don't stay in this path, that, that either we'll be homeless or people will leave us.

Erin I had the other of that question, right, of like, okay, when my wife and I got together, I was... This was my profession. This was what I was doing. She was attracted to the fact that I was doing these things, and what if I'm not doing them anymore? Will she still be attracted to me? Do- will she leave, right?

Erin Yeah. So all of it comes down to, like, what are the things our nervous system is most afraid is gonna happen? Yeah. And can we get really cozy up and, like, calm that, that part of ourselves and make sure that that part of ourselves knows actually, [00:29:00] no, no matter what, we're okay

Jason So how, how would that sh- this shift in you, how would that now show up in, like, a random Tuesday or

Erin Wednesday- Yeah

Jason as you're, you know, maybe needing to go pick up your stepdaughter-

Erin Yeah ...

Jason take her to school or bring her back, or not wanna do any of that, yet you still have to?

Erin Yes. Well, it's funny 'cause it would... Literally yesterday that was the case, with picking her up from school and taking her to something in the afternoon.

Erin And even still, I looked at my schedule for the day and said, "Well, what do I actually have to do for work?"

Jason Mm.

Erin Um, and let my- I'm letting myself see all the holistic of what I did in the day. I took her to her, um, activity. I made dinner. I helped get the laundry done. My wife's working late a couple days a week this semester, and so I'm taking care of a lot more [00:30:00] things in the evenings than I would have maybe last semester.

Erin And so at the end of the day, I'm not just looking at the, like, what did I get done on my to-do list for work?

Jason Mm.

Erin I'm looking at how did I show up for myself, for my family, for my clients today, and can I, can I celebrate the, all of those things? Yeah. And then also, even yesterday in the middle of the day, I knew I had to pick up the kiddo.

Erin I still got in the hot tub middle of the day because I knew I needed a little break.

Erin Mm.

Erin Right? And there is a definitely a, there are times in my life where, like, that would've been a ridiculous thing in my mind. Like, you don't get in the hot tub till you've gotten everything on your to-do list done, and I'm s- I'm still in the building mode of this new thing.

Erin So in my head I'm like, "As long as you're in the building mode, like, you don't got time for that."

Jason Yeah.

Erin And so I hear that thought and I go, "No, I'm not going back on that path." Right? I'm gonna trust that, [00:31:00] um, the right level of provision will come, and that there's not just a singular identity of me providing.

Erin So that requires me to slow down, to get in the hot tub, to spend the two hours with the kiddo doing the activities.

Jason Yeah. Yeah, like that, that reminds me of the difference between self care, or you could call it self-care- Yeah ... but self-care as a reward-

Erin Yes ...

Jason or a necessity.

Erin Yes.

Jason Right? 'Cause I used to think of it only as a reward.

Jason Yeah. Like that, the hot tub or the bath or whatever- Yeah ... it's like only after you've finished all of your stuff- Yeah ... do you deserve to, like, rest and- Yeah ... relax, rather than maybe the more athlete model of, well, recovery and rest is just as critical-

Erin Right ...

Jason in the process of training-

Erin Yeah ...

Jason and becoming stronger.

Jason And, like- I mean, I don't, I don't know when that went out the

[00:32:00] window for people or for society,

Erin but like- Well, it's that, like, you'll sleep when you're dead mentality, right?

Jason Yeah.

Erin Um, I've, I've been hearing that one a lot from people, that it seems to be making a comeback.

Jason Really?

Erin Yeah. Oh, no. Um, yeah. But I will say what's actually been so inspirational for me is watching my wife.

Erin She is, um... So she's an opera singer. She teaches voice at three different universities. She's very busy. Oh, wow. Uh, very, very busy person, and has a kid, and she was doing this all by herself before I met her. Um, but, uh, she non negotiably works out. We have a gym in our backyard, and she will do that even when she has other things that are pressing schedule needs.

Erin She will non-negotiably work out almost every day. Um, not because she's a crazy person, but because that's actually, like, her way of keeping herself regulated and sane. Mm-hmm. And she keeps pushing me in a good way to... 'Cause she's [00:33:00] found me at times where I'll say, I'll put my workout clothes on in the morning, and at 5:00 PM she'll be like, "So you worked out, right?"

Erin And I say, "Nope, I've been in my office intending to work out all day." And so she said, "You've gotta, you know, this has gotta be non-negotiable", and it's like, th- this is the priority. Like, if this is what you want, you gotta make sure you do it before the other things. Mm. And I've been watching her do that, and that means sometimes workout is a priority over me, right?

Erin Sometimes the workout's a priority over spending a little more time with her daughter, although she spends a lot of time. Like, she's... I'm not trying to say she's a bad mother. But it's, it's so inspirational to see someone who has that level of... I wouldn't, I don't even wanna call it discipline. It's not discipline, just that level of commitment- Mm

Erin to something that is not the, the work thing.

Jason I hear that. I, I, I heard a similar thing, but [00:34:00] on the relationship. So I was, I was at, I was in this, um... Yeah, I was reading this book on relationships- Mm-hmm ... and marriage, and one of the things that they had said was like, well, when you make the number one thing your kids, it actually harms the whole family unit.

Erin Yeah.

Jason But when you make the number one thing, um, your marriage, and, you know, if you're religious, like your, your relationship with God-

Erin Yeah, yeah ...

Jason and then your marriage, then, then that cascades down into the rest of the family.

Erin Yeah.

Jason And it actually sets a better example for the kids. They feel safer-

Erin Yeah

Jason and so do you.

Erin Yeah.

Jason Because, like, you have a commitment to making that a reality. And like I, I remember for the first couple years when we had kids, like it, it kind of flipped because, you know, my, my wife was like, "Well, I'm gonna... Like, this kid better survive. I'm gonna feed her-

Erin Yeah ... I'm

Jason gonna clothe her, I'm gonna make her happy and do all this stuff."

Erin Yeah.

Jason And I kept kinda nudging her saying like, "Hey, and we need to keep working on our [00:35:00] relationship. We need to keep checking in with each other." Mm. "We need to keep having that time." And in the beginning, I mean, you've got a newborn. When you've got a newborn, like most of that gets thrown out the window.

Erin Yeah. Um- 'Cause they do need to survive ... '

Jason cause they need that.

Erin Yeah, right.

Jason And then you need to return, though.

Erin Yeah.

Jason Right? And I think that's such a critical thing, like not just in a, a marriage or- Yeah ... a relationship, but like for our lives, like, well, what's the key? And I've realized the key is sleep-

Erin Mm-hmm

Jason nutrition- Mm-hmm ... and exercise. As, as more of just a foundation of taking care of the body- Yeah ... that your, your brain sits in, your spirit rests in.

Erin Right.

Jason And if you don't have that, like you, you, you don't really have access to a lot of those other things.

Erin Yeah. But it's such an afterthought for so many people.

Jason So true. Like it was always an afterthought for me-

Erin Yeah ... until recently. And, and as you're saying it, like I still am trying to work out how to make it not an afterthought for me because there's still, you know... Yes, I can tell you I had this surrender moment and I let things go, and at the same time these patterns are well-worn grooves.

Jason Mm.

Erin And it's, [00:36:00] it's easy to find myself... I've practiced surrender for only a few years on and off, right? Since I, I'd say probably since I started my coaching in 2018-ish, but I practiced being a workaholic focused on my achievements, proving myself and my worth for decades before that.

Jason Mm-hmm.

Erin Right? So it's, it's gotta be this continual practice, and I find there's little and big ways that I still keep slipping, right?

Erin And so yesterday getting in the hot tub was my act of reminding myself like I have to make this a priority.

Jason Yeah.

Erin I have a million things on my to-do list. I'm getting in.

Jason Yeah.

Erin You know?

Jason And if I could share one breakthrough I had- Yeah ... on the, the treating my body well side- Yeah ... including working out. One of them, which was so unexpected, one of them was- actually appreciating my body.

Jason Hmm. Like, like looking at my body and being like, "Hey, like,

[00:37:00] I actually like this guy."

Jason Hmm. "

Jason I like this, the, I like the skin."

Jason Hmm. "I like

Jason not having much muscles." Yeah. I'm like, "I don't know if I like that." Yeah. Um, but I thought through, like I looked at myself then I said, "You know, this is the body that holds me in this mortal world."

Jason Mm-hmm.

Jason It, it communicates. Yeah. It, it's my only way to communicate with other people. And if I, like when I worked on that love for my own body-

Jason Mm-hmm ...

Jason it actually became easier and easier to exercise.

Erin Mm-hmm.

Jason Whereas before, it was kind of like I didn't like my body that much. I was like, "Oh, I could be buffer."

Erin Right. "

Jason I could be stronger. I could have more energy." Yeah. And like all of that is my body's fault. Right.

Erin Right? You're fixing. You're-

Jason Right? Yeah. And because I didn't like that, I'm like, "Well, what's the point of treating it well if it's gonna do that to me?" Yeah. You know, it's kinda like- Yeah ... kinda silly saying it out loud now.

Jason Yeah.

Erin It's not silly. I had a similar reaction recently. So I don't know if you're familiar, there's a poet named Andrea Gibson who- Mm ... um, recently died of, uh, incurable cancer. Andrea was [00:38:00] in their 40s and was the poet laureate for in Colorado, so just amazing human, pretty well-known. A documentary came out recently, uh, the last few years of their life, and at one point several years ago, they were trying to figure out if they still wanna, if Andrea was still gonna be on chemo because it seemed like, you know, at, at some point the chemo could be worse than continuing.

Erin And one of the things Andrea said in the documentary is, "I want to have a body for as long as I possibly can."

Jason Hmm.

Erin Um, and sh- Andrea was very spiritual and very connected to that, that realm, but-

Jason Yeah ...

Erin you know, said, "I want to have a body, so I will continue, even if I have to do chemo and all this stuff because I want to have a body."

Erin And there's something there that really resonates for me, especially as you're talking about coming from a different place, not of I have to fix this or I'm looking at [00:39:00] ugliness, coming from a place of love. I had this like, "Oh, I want to have a body for as long as I possibly can, too, so like how do I tend to that?"

Jason Yeah.

Erin You know?

Jason Yeah. Absolutely.

Erin Yeah.

Jason Yeah. It, it's, that, that particular thing for me was like- Probably like the low-key winner of the year-

Erin Mm ...

Jason last year. I, I hadn't thought about it until now, but I think that that shift for me made a lot of stuff possible, where I did start working out more often, um, sleeping more, you know, being- paying more attention to the food that I'm eating-

Erin Yeah

Jason because it's part of me treating my body well-

Erin Yeah ...

Jason rather than just, like, my brain. Yeah. Like, the dessert would be great for my brain- Yes ... for the dopamine.

Erin Yes.

Jason Right?

Erin So how has that then rippled out to the rest of your life with that foundation?

Jason Well, it really improved my confidence and the way that I [00:40:00] relate to people and the way that I talk to people, um, because I feel like it, it shifted...

Jason Like, like I had- I didn't realize I was carrying even that sense of self rejection, and it made me less authentic

Jason Hmm.

Jason And that part, when I, when I kind of broke open that part and I talked to him, I said, "Hey, like, what is this about?" And then I did the practice where I would look at myself, and I would, like, look at my body and say, like, "Hey," um, and if you're...

Jason I don't know if you're familiar with the, the Hawaiian Hoʻoponopono-

Erin Yeah, yeah, yeah ...

Jason the forgiveness prayer.

Erin Yes.

Jason Um, but I practiced that. Like, I stood in the mirror and I looked at myself and I said, "I love you. Please forgive me. I'm sorry."

Jason Hmm.

Jason Or not in that order, but, um, it's something like, like I said.

Jason Yeah. "I'm sorry. Please forgive me. I love you." Um, "I love me."

Jason Hmm.

Jason And, like, making eye contact with myself, looking at my body and saying those things, like practicing. [00:41:00] Um, in the beginning, my nervous system was like, "What the heck are you doing, Jason?" Like, "This is weird." Um, and over time, though, it settled.

Jason Hmm.

Jason And then, like, I found that suddenly during the day, I was like, "I wanna move."

Jason Hmm. "

Jason I wanna lift." Like, I have a pair of dumbbells in my office that I almost never touched before, and then sometime... Then suddenly it was like, "Oh, yeah," like, "Let me go move some." And I would just do a few exercises.

Jason Mm-hmm.

Jason Um, I'd do a few thrusters and then come back.

Jason Mm-hmm. And then... Or I'd go and I would, like, go on a fast walk around the block suddenly- Mm-hmm ... and then come back. Um, because, like, then it started to click-

Jason Hmm ... for me.

Jason You know? And that actually improved energy. Um, I did other things, but it improved my energy- Mm-hmm ... my overall motivation. Um, so it kind of cascaded across to so many things.

Erin Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it, it's also interesting just hearing you talk about, [00:42:00] you know, "I'm just gonna do a few things," right? It wasn't like you woke up with this self-love, and now I have all these different goals, right? It was like, "Oh, I'm gonna go do a couple thrusters," right?

Jason Yeah.

Erin And just I think that's also such a profound thing about when we're shifting how we show up, it's not these grand sweeping, "Oh, now I love myself, so I'm in the gym four hours a day," right?

Erin It's, "I love myself- Yeah ... and I love my body, and so I feel like moving it." Okay. For me, it was, like, the 20 minutes in the hot tub. For you, it's the thrusters.

Jason Yeah. Yeah. And I got a sauna.

Erin Yeah.

Jason Because, like,

Erin that's- Why not? Right?

Jason That's the part, right? Right. Of, like, okay, well, I like the heat, too.

Erin Yeah.

Jason And... Okay, so I have a question here that I think would be

Jason Here we go. So I think there, there's, there's been kinda two things as we've been talking, Anne. Um, I wanna link into your, [00:43:00] your, um, your theme of being joyful.

Erin Mm.

Jason Right? Because you, you recently moved into supporting also from the nervous system perspective.

Erin Yes.

Jason And, um, I'd love to hear where joy and following joy shows up in that.

Erin Yeah. They're very related.

Jason No.

Erin No. So, um, I'm just gonna use this metaphor again, like the Inside Out characters. So in Inside Out, there is a character named Joy, but the way I see it is that actually all these parts of us that are running the show, the, the inner board of directors or the inner whatever at the switchboard, are often in the way of our joy.

Erin They are the ones trying to keep us safe, so they're the ones who are, you know, for me, overachieving or gritting through things, or over intellectualizing. And joy, to me, is this deep sense... You know I was talking about my [00:44:00] belly, right? So my... It's this deep sense of curiosity and connection to something, you know, connection to something, like, spiritual or connection to others or connection to self.

Erin Um, and when those parts are in the way, I can't s- I can't find them. And so for me- Mm ... joy is about asking those parts of me that are trying to run me because they think that's what's gonna keep me safe, asking them if they don't mind, you know, taking a nap in the hammock or, um, just stepping aside for a little bit.

Erin And when they kind of, you know, come out of, out of the way, that's when that deeper thing emerges for me. And so nervous system regulation, when I can get to that space of I'm, I feel calm, I feel safe, that's when that connection emerges and that curiosity emerges.

Jason Mm.

Erin And so I, I also think of joy being this very, like, childlike pure thing, and that's [00:45:00] not those parts of me trying to keep me safe.

Erin Yeah.

Erin So, and for me, you know- Joy is, I would say, is an ev- evolving thing as well. Um, but what I keep discovering is it's always been there. I don't have to look out there for joy, right? Um, it's something that's always in me that I just have to, uh, remind myself on a regular basis that if I go inward, let those parts of me step back, I can feel this deep, deep beauty, this deep love, this deep curiosity, this deep compassion.

Erin Um-

Erin Yeah ...

Erin and, and I, I tune into that now. You know, going back to sort of the original question about gritting through versus avoiding something, I can ask myself, "Is joy in the leap?" Right? Or is it those parts? Am I feeling that connection [00:46:00] to that joy? Um, and if it's not joyful, there's some work to do. And I think that's a really big one for people.

Erin I, I think you were talking about, you know, working out being afterthought. A lot of people see joy as an afterthought. Yeah. I will do joy when I get my work done. I will do joy when the world's not on fire. I will do joy when... And people are missing out on the opportunity to figure out that not only is joy always there, but just like you working out comes from a place of self-love, so much is possible when you can say like, "I'm gonna come from joy first."

Erin Yeah.

Erin Right? Um, what is joy to me? What does that look like, and how do I go about that? And it's that, it's those tiny shifts again. You don't upend your life. You, uh, shift from Oh, these parts are owning the show. Let me see if I can do one thing today where that's not the case

Jason Hmm

Erin [00:47:00] What's one place where I can be in a space of connection to something bigger?

Erin Or what's one thing I can do that's curious? One, one place where I can regulate and come from a place of calm

Jason Yeah. Yeah, and what I seem to hear you saying too is that that something bigger is within

Erin Yeah

Jason It's not just a... Like, from a, maybe from a physical perspective, regulating your nervous system is one way to quiet the parts

Erin Yeah

Jason Right?

Jason It's to quiet the mind and quiet the worries- Mm-hmm ... and those kind of things. Um, because when you're safe, then you can create

Jason Yeah

Jason You can do, you can move towards, like, things that are just actually fun

Erin Yeah

Jason Um, or like the last time... Like, I, I, I think about, like, maybe the last time I had, like, a real belly laugh for no particular reason It's

Erin so good for the soul.

Jason Yeah. Yeah Yeah, and so that's, that's what resonates a lot. And at the same time, um, when you had mentioned actually [00:48:00] the, where, where you're looking for answers anywhere but within Like, from, from tarot cards- Yeah ... to, like, horosc- you didn't say horoscopes

Erin I do astrology too Okay. I'm not, I'm unapologetic.

Erin Yeah. I now see it as weather, not telling me the answers, but like, oh, this, it, you know, it's sunny today. Also astrologically this might be happening

Jason Yeah

Erin But that doesn't mean

Jason It's data

Erin It's data, yeah.

Jason Right? Right And, and, and like, I think that's, like, that's such an, like, I think that's such a common thing though.

Jason Yeah Like, when someone doesn't have the answers-

Erin Yeah ...

Jason they, they, they search outside-

Erin Mm-hmm ...

Jason for a lot of these things. And I think there's a certain, there's goodness in looking outside

Erin Yeah

Jason But not to the extent where we ignore what's inside

Erin Yeah

Jason Because, like, that's really the s- the seat of our consciousness- Yeah

Jason the seat of our spirit of, like-

Erin Yeah ...

Jason us being connected to something bigger, is not like, I don't know, like, like, if Go- if you're like, "God, if this is real- Yeah ... have a pigeon fly by and, like, poop next to me." Right But not [00:49:00] on me.

Erin Right. '

Jason Cause I don't want that. But like, if it does that, then I know that this is a real thing- Right

Jason that I should be doing right now

Erin Right

Jason And you're just like, okay, like

Erin Or just listen

Jason Yeah, like- Listen ... like, let's listen. You know? Like, if God has to do something like that, like, you've probably been ignoring it for, like, way too long

Erin Yeah Well, and I do believe that that deeper part of us that's connected and calm and curious, that is our spiritual center Mm And so the fact that joy comes from that same place, to me that means joy is our spiritual center And so that, to me, is even more motivation to go inward, find what that feels like, find what that looks like, and, you know, cultivate it more.

Erin Find, find more access to it, find more ways to express it, um, find more ways to know when something feels joyful and when something feels... Maybe I'd make this distinction between, like, happiness and joy. So something that

[00:50:00] feels exciting, is it joyful? It could be. If it is, then yeah, you're coming from a spiritual center.

Erin But you're right, we always look for that external because that's what feels safe, and all that comes to building that internal trust. Yeah. That, oh, something will emerge. And, you know, I've, I've seen it sort of, like, we've been buried by these layers of expectations on us, right? And those, those parts of us that are running the show have carried the weight of those expectations, and some of those expectations we learn from our parents, and some of them we learn from school or we learn from society.

Erin And so part of this process is, um, an excavation.

Erin Hmm.

Erin And one of my clients many years ago said that my, my role was I'm a soul pressure washer.

Erin Hmm.

Erin And, uh, 'cause she was seeing it as, like, I was removing the gunk to- Yeah ... excavate to get to that center. And so I see that for myself now as, like, when I'm going towards cultivating [00:51:00] joy, it's like I'm trying to r- r- remove the layers of junk that got in the way of it in the first place.

Jason Yeah. And I can see, like, someone in the audience probably wondering, well, that's cool and all. Um, but how can I tell? Like, is there, is there something you could... Like, a small thing- Yeah ... or a small practice you could recommend- Yeah ... for them to-

Erin Yeah. So I- ...

Jason start to sense the, I guess, the joy, sensing that, how do you, like, move according to your joy- Yeah

Jason or, like, what that inner self is saying?

Erin Yeah. It's a great question. So one of my favorite small things to do is I'll close my eyes and just revisit a recent joyful moment. And so I'll g- I'll spend a minute saying, "Okay, where was I? Who was I with? What was happening?" And then as soon as I get that image in my mind's eye, I will check in and say, "Where do I feel the joy of that moment in my body?"

Erin Um, do I feel that in my [00:52:00] stomach? Do I feel a tingling in my toes? Is there a warmth in my heart? And I've done that a few times over just to see, like, is it a consistent feeling. But for me, if I can go in and say, "This is what joy feels like in my body," then as I'm trying to go towards things, I can check in.

Erin What is this feeling? And sometimes I will feel, like, really excited and happy, and it's in my head, and I know that that's not it. That's- and there's nothing wrong necessarily with the excitement or the happiness. Great. But if I'm really trying to orientate towards, is this joyful, I can check in and say, "Where am I feeling...

Erin What am I feeling in my body? Is it what I know to be joy?" Yeah. And the more I can connect with those moments of joy, and the more I can understand what it feels like in my body, the more I can check in.

Jason Yeah. And so would you ignore those happy, exciting moments to, like, go towards joyful stuff, or?

Erin Depends.

Erin It's more of a having the intentionality of understanding there's nothing wrong with being excited. Um, but if I'm thinking about, like, [00:53:00] okay, I feel really joyful about, um, I'm, I'm revisiting guitar. I'm, I'm learning again. I have, um, you know, some really interesting goals around it. And I can say I'm really excited, but that excitement has a, an expiration date.

Erin Excitement is like a spike in energy that, that kinda dissipates over time. So I can say, "Okay, great. I'm excited. That's good for momentum." But is there joy there, too? Because if there's not joy there, that excitement's gonna run out, and then what? Um, so it's not about ignoring or not. It's just about being really intentional about, okay, what is this feeling?

Erin What is it doing for me? And can I also see if there's joy underneath? Yeah.

Jason So it can also give you, like, a likely outcome.

Erin Yeah.

Jason So taking that guitar example-

Erin Yeah ...

Jason like, I've been thinking about violin, 'cause I used to play that a lot-

Erin Nice ...

Jason as a child. And I'm like, "Oh, it'd be cool to pick it up again-

Erin Yeah

Jason um, because I played it [00:54:00] for so long."

Erin Yeah.

Jason I know I remember nothing of it now.

Erin Yeah.

Jason And I had some excitement around that.

Erin Yeah.

Jason But also, like, I didn't feel much joy towards practicing it again.

Erin Hmm.

Jason So I know that if I did pick it up, I'd probably practice and hurt my ears for, like, a couple days- Yep ... and then I would stop.

Erin Yeah.

Jason And but if I- So, so, like, does this make sense? So, like, if I were to do that-

Erin Yeah ...

Jason right, but I knew that it wasn't a joy thing, but it was more just like, oh, for fun, excitement, then, then at least in the s- after I give up in three days, right, I d- I- Yeah ... maybe I don't give up. After I decide to stop.

Erin Yeah.

Jason Right? I don't have to beat myself up of like- Correct ... "Oh, I'm just a guy who never finishes things." Exactly. "And I hate myself for doing

Erin that." Exactly. You know, oh, I'm gonna do that for the excitement for a few days.

Jason Yeah, and I'm just like, when it runs out- Yeah ... maybe I'll just set it back down and it'll be okay.

Erin Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that, uh, that's one of the beautiful things

[00:55:00] about having just in general more in touch with our emotions. We can know what they're doing for the us. We can know, okay, is there an expiration date or is there not? Do I wanna pursue this? Do I not? And if I decide not to, again, do I beat myself up for it?

Jason Yeah.

Erin Um...

Jason Yeah, so it can be a choice of like, "Okay, I do wanna access that excitement."

Erin Yeah. "

Jason And I know it won't last that long, but it's okay."

Erin Yeah. I'll do it.

Jason Yeah.

Erin Right.

Jason But then if it's joyful it, it's like, it's durable.

Erin Yes. Durable. Right? It's everlasting. And one of the things you can also ask yourself is like, "Okay, I'm not feeling much joy around this.

Erin Is there something that would make this more joyful?"

Jason Mm. Yeah.

Erin And if not, then yeah, I'm gonna pursue the excitement for three days, and then, and then stop. But, um, I- I'm constantly asking myself, "Is this joyful? Would there be something that makes it joyful? If not, do I do it or do I do it for however long the other emotion lasts?"

Jason Yeah [00:56:00]

Erin Yeah.

Jason Makes sense.

Erin Yeah. Yeah. So I just wanna tell, say to the audience out there too, so this, if you're not in touch with your body, that's okay. Um, and pursuing joy is something that I am still working on every day, still learning what joy feels like, and, um, being able to just, like, on the spot say, "Oh, is this joyful?"

Erin That is a practice. That is a practice. I'm not always right about it. Sometimes I think something's joyful, and then I go down the path and realize it's not, and I go, "Great learning experience."

Jason Yeah.

Erin Um, but a lot of it's about these really tiny changes too. When I tell people, you know, yes, you can reorient your life towards joy, that is an overwhelming thing, and it's really about, okay, these tiny moments.

Erin Let me just try this one thing. Can I reorient this thing towards more joy? Can I find more joy in making dinner at night?

Erin Mm.

Erin You know? Or can I find more joy in being in traffic? Yeah. [00:57:00] Often not, but But I just wanna make it... Like, joy is, it's accessible, and it's about these tiny shifts over time, and it's about a, it's a practice and it's an, it's a min- I wanna say it's not even a mindset.

Erin It's a nervous system orientation.

Jason Yeah. Like, one example I can come up with that I've done, um, to great success you could call it, but it's like a tiny thing that has really shifted a lot of my life, um, which has been, like, after a long day of work, um, sometimes I'm like too tired to wanna play with my kids or hear about what they're talking about, and there's always, there, it's always random.

Jason Mm-hmm. It's, it's always super random. Like, I have a four-year-old and a one and a half, so super random.

Jason Yeah.

Jason Um, and- When I come back though, um, I've intentionally started to look at it as like what could be something that I could do that's not just fun for them? Because, like, that's what we're always optimizing for. Mm-hmm. Like, it would... It- But, like, what are, what is there [00:58:00] something that I could do that's also fun for me?

Jason Mm.

Jason Because I never thought about that until maybe this past year of like- Yeah ... okay, yeah, like, I'm making my daughter happy. She's- we're playing together, but I'm really just going through motions- Yeah ... and, like, doing little things that I know that will kinda get her hyped up and- Yeah ... excited, right? Um, but I thought, "Well, okay, but what about me?"

Jason Like, I need to do something fun. And I noticed that even if I say, "Okay, I'm really tired. I will only do one joyful thing"-

Erin Yeah ...

Jason right? And, and I know my joyful thing, so, like, we go in and I do that one thing. Um, sometimes I'll only do it once and that's it, you know? But it started with a joyful moment, and we got a good kinda rhythm going.

Jason Mm-hmm.

Jason I actually felt a little more filled up.

Jason Mm-hmm.

Jason But then other times I do that one thing and it's so fun that we just end up doing it for, like, the next 30 minutes, and I come out like, wow, like, I'm actually really refreshed-

Erin Yeah ...

Jason and [00:59:00] happy. So, like, there's, there's been... That- that's been a big difference for me.

Erin Well, and it just goes back to this idea, right, that we have to take care of ourselves.

Jason Yeah.

Erin You know? And that, that just like we can't continue looking for answers outside of ourselves, we also can't keep giving of ourselves outside of ourselves. Like-

Jason Yeah ...

Erin that's not... You're talking about, you know, healthy, healthy families start with a healthy marriage and a healthy relationship with God.

Erin Also, healthy relationship with, we're gonna do things that make me happy too. Yeah. Or make me joyful.

Jason Yeah, and the fact of that is a healthy person.

Erin Yes.

Jason Right?

Erin Right.

Jason Yeah.

Erin Yeah, and I think that's such a revolutionary shift because so many parents I know, it's all about what does the kid want, what does the kid need?

Erin And sometimes what the parent wants, the kids actually are like totally into

Jason Yeah ...

Erin if we just let them come along with us.

Jason Yeah. Sometimes, yeah, it, it's definitely a big thing.

Erin Yeah.

Jason Yeah. Well, Erin, it's been such a, so [01:00:00] wonderful- Yes ... having you on here.

Erin Yeah.

Jason I feel like I could be talking to you about this stuff for like another couple hours.

Erin Yeah, absolutely.

Jason Well, uh, and, and the big thing is, um, how can the audience find you, and maybe if you have any up-and-coming things that you'd like to share with them?

Erin Yeah. So if you're interested in how to make more joy in your life, I recommend my book on Amazon. It's called Joyful AF: The Essential Business Strategy We're Afraid to Put First, and I want to, uh, put it out there that it's says it's about business, but it's really about joy.

Erin Um-

Erin Trojan horse.

Erin Yes. Uh, turns out if you write a book just on joy, nobody knows it's for them. So I wrote a book specifically for people who are in business, but everybody who's read it has told me it's just about joy. Um, so you can find that on Amazon. Um, you can also reach out to me on LinkedIn or, um, just s- it, my, my website's gonna be changing soon, so just re- send me an email at Erin@drerinb.com.

Erin Sounds good.

Erin Yeah. All

Erin right. Well, thanks so much.

Erin Yep.

Erin It's great to have you on.

Erin Well, [01:01:00] thank you.