Why Achievement Is Quietly Costing You More Than You Think with Hayden Lee

Jason [00:00:00] Hayden Lee lives by a simple test: Will I regret not trying? It's a deathbed question that he asks himself in real time, and it's carried him through decisions that actually matter. But there's a version of this that gets harder to explain. When I ask them the cost of living by his values, he doesn't always see oneTurning down money, walking away from opportunities, what looks like sacrifice from the outside doesn't always feel like it on the inside

Jason Is that peace or is that numbness? And at what point does a cost stop being a cost? This is the living question

Jason Aiden, welcome to the show. Uh, I'm so excited to have you here- Yeah ... um, 'cause not only are you, like- You know, like you've achieved a lot, um, as a coach and as a leadership coach, but you were also my first life coach. Yeah. Like, you were my first coach ever.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Wow. Um, and it's so cool to have this come kind of circ- full circle and get to sit with you here to, to talk about this stuff with you.

Hayden Yeah, no, thank you so much for having me on your show. And

[00:01:00] you're right, just seeing the traject- trajectory of where you were and where you've come is pretty awesome too. So it's... it is cool, like, to see both of us grow so much in the last, I don't know, probably almost 10 years- Yeah ... we've known each other.

Hayden Um-

Jason Yeah, it's been about that.

Hayden Yeah. So it's, it's really fun, and I'm happy to be a part of this.

Jason Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, you know, you know, the viewers have heard a little bit about you already. Um, but, but I'd like to kinda tap on, um, just over the last couple years, what's been kind of like your highlight reel that, that you feel like could give, give them a taste of like-

Hayden Hmm

Jason where you really land, like what you do and, uh, what you, like what you value.

Hayden Yeah. Well, on paper, like my, what I do is, you know, executive coaching, leadership coaching, right? Helping leaders become more self-aware to [00:02:00] transform into becoming the leader they wanna be. That's like on paper, right? But really, I think what I'm doing now is just combining all the things that I love to do, what I think is fun, into like transformational experiences.

Hayden Um, like for this year, I really wanna t- take the things that I'm passionate about and, you know, i- infuse that with coaching and transformation, and I wanna make sure that I have fun with it, and that it's, um, an adventure for me.

Jason Yeah. Like, what are a couple of those things that you're passionate about?

Hayden Well, I think, um, like I, every year in the fall, I have a retreat for coaches in France.

Jason Hmm.

Hayden And that's a good example of, I always try to inspire people to think about, like, what are you passionate about? Like, think about all the different areas of your life and how can you combine that into something that's really cool and that, that's really fun for you.

Hayden And so this idea of transcend and include. Like, als- although we're growing as people, like what areas of your life do you wanna take with

[00:03:00] you? Like, what are the best things of your life that you wanna take with you? So I've always had a passion for France. In high school, I took French, and I remember my high school French teacher took us to Paris for spring break.

Speaker 3 Whoa.

Hayden And it was like- Cool ... such a cool experience, like to be... I think I was 17, and there's a group of, you know, French students in Paris, and we had... I stayed with a host family. And from... I just was fascinated with other cultures. I was fascinated with France, with the language and the food, and this idea of like joie de vivre, just like live life, you know, enjoy life.

Hayden So then that led me to be take, uh, to take French in college, and then it led me to study a year abroad-

Jason Hmm ...

Hayden in France. Um, and then when I was in France, you know, I met some amazing other college students from all over the country, uh, who were studying this program. Um, and I kept in touch with some of them, one of them being, um, Megan, and she was from, um, Minnesota, but she went to school in Wisconsin, University of Madison, Wisconsin, but we were all in the same program.

Hayden Yeah. So we've just been in touch all these [00:04:00] years, and then so she and her partner, like, bought this, um, bed and breakfast like 10, 12 years ago. They renovated it to this beautiful venue, and I've always wanted to do a retreat there. Yeah. So-

Jason And that venue is in France?

Hayden It's in France, yeah. It's in the south of France, outside of Bordeaux.

Jason Oh yeah, okay.

Hayden So yeah, so it's in France outside of Bordeaux. It's this beautiful bed and breakfast that they've renovated, and then I've always... When they did that a decade ago, I was like, "Oh, I wanna go there someday and do some sort of retreat there." And now for the last four years I have. And so I combine, um, like f- my love for France and French cooking and French food and French wine, and then also I love the Enneagram, and I combine the Enneagram in this.

Hayden I love coaching. So then now, uh, I, I just had one last fall, and now I'm gonna have one this coming fall, and it's already filling up.

Speaker 3 Mm.

Hayden So it's, it, it is for coaches who wanna deepen their craft but also see the world, ex- you know, experience another [00:05:00] culture, um, work on themselves, work on their business, and then also we get to meet the locals, 'cause that's part of the experience too.

Hayden We get to Fr- uh, coach some of the French locals.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden And then this... And the feedback I always get is about this is so cool because it's, it's so original. It's out of the box. And it is though, but it's also because it's everything I love to do.

Jason Yeah. And

Hayden so I always tell people like, "Really, what do you love to do?"

Hayden And if you create something that you love, you can't not be passionate about it. Your energy and enthusiasm will be contagious to other people. So, like, whatever that is, you know, think about all the things you love to do and how can you create something from that.

Jason Yeah. Well, that, that's a perfect segue.

Jason Yeah. I wrote down a question about, about that France retreat because if we were to rewind back for four years and a couple months maybe-

Hayden Mm ...

Jason um, before... Again, that, that was probably before you had the th- the, the, I guess the thought of- Mm ... Transcend and Include, or is that, [00:06:00] like, kinda when it started to come together?

Hayden Um, I mean, I've heard the term before, but I think it wasn't until after I started embodying transcend and include that looking back I'm like, "Oh yeah, I'm transcending and including." But I wasn't... I don't think at the time I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna like transcend and include right now."

Jason Yeah.

Hayden It was more of a, you know, that quote about, you know, you can't connect the dots looking forward, it's only looking back.

Hayden So I think looking back now I can be like, oh, it's like because I'm embodying that.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden But at the time it was something like I wanted to do, right?

Jason Okay, perfect. So let's go back to that moment like before- Mm ... like before it was embodied, and then I guess when, when it happened, right? So when you set up the France retreat- Mm

Jason before anything was actually set up, like where did your philosophy actually get tested and where did it get messy or uncertain?

Hayden when you say philosophy, like the transcend and include philosophy? Or-

Jason Yeah. Or, or like I guess the [00:07:00] To choose that

Hayden Mm-hmm ...

Jason did you have, like, a faith that it would already be happening and you're like, "Well, this is just the thing I'm meant to do"?

Jason Mm. Or, or like what was kind of your mindset there? And then, then we can go into some of these other questions. Like how did that-

Hayden Yeah,

Jason yeah ... like, I guess, like how did that, even that thought surface- Yeah ... as a next step for you? Marker

Hayden I appreciate the question, and I appreciate this idea of like philosophy, 'cause I don't often take time to think about like my philosophy on life or my philosophy on, on my work.

Hayden Um, but something that came up that as you were talking is this idea of, um, unshakable self-belief. And what I mean by that is when I decided to do the retreat in France, the idea can seem kinda crazy. It's like people are gonna pay me to fly halfway across the country or the world, right? To do [00:08:00] something that they've never done and that I've never done, right?

Hayden And then I think faith, um, has many different definitions.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden Right? And I think it has room for one... And I think one person can have multiple versions of what faith means to them, right? Yeah. There can be spiritual faith, religious faith, and then there's, like, faith in the universe, faith in something bigger than ourselves.

Hayden And I think- All versions of that are in my life in some way, shape, or form. Mm-hmm. But I do believe the most important version or definition of faith for me is unshakable self-belief.

Jason Hmm. And

Hayden what I mean by unshakable self-belief is that when I really wanna do something, I have this unshakable self-belief that no matter what happens, I'm gonna figure out- figure it out, and it's going to happen.

Jason Hmm.

Hayden I don't know how, I don't know when, but it's... A- and, and I have to check in with myself and say, "All right. Is this something I really wanna do? Like, do I have unshakable self-belief that I can do this?"

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Hayden And [00:09:00] then when it came to, wanting to create an experience for people to have transformation and learning and growth, personal growth, professional growth, and have a lot of fun in France, is this something I wanted to do?

Hayden Did I have unshakable self-belief that I could create an experience that people would, would attend and sign up?

Jason Yeah.

Hayden And I did. But that didn't mean it was easy, right? It was actually, um, the first version of it was hard, 'cause it hadn't been tested before. Um, people had to have faith in me, right?

Jason Yeah.

Hayden And then I had to, you know, change it a few times.

Hayden I had to change the date. I had to push things back. But it eventually took. And then the first year it actually finally happened was in 2023. Okay.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden And it was a great success, so then it happened again in 2024, then in 2025. And then now it's gonna happen again in 2026, where our people are already signing up for it 10 months in advance.

Jason Yeah. Wow.

Hayden So, yeah.

Jason And, and real quick on the unshakable self-belief, has that just been a part of your [00:10:00] life? Or is that something that you cultivated-

Hayden Hmm ...

Jason um, over time?

Hayden Yeah. That's a great question. I think unshakable self-belief is a skill set. And I think, like any skill set, you have to have intentional practice.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden Um-

Jason So how did you do that? Like, how did you build it to the point where you're doing retreats in France- Mm ... like sending people halfway around the world when maybe some of these people could meet you in LA where you

Hayden live. Yeah. Or even- Right ... easier on Zoom, right? Yeah. Which you don't have to leave your living room.

Jason Yeah, yeah.

Hayden Um, it's interesting. If I see unshakable self-belief as a skill set, which, which I believe it is, I think of the principle of neuroplasticity, where it's like our brains are wired for unlimited growth.

Jason Mm-hmm.

Hayden And any skill set with which you want to strengthen, you have to deliberately practice it, like, over and over again.

Hayden Like practice the skill, make a mistake, do it again and again, but it's gotta be deliberate. Yeah. And [00:11:00] so- What's interesting for me, I, when I talk about unshakable self-belief, I also think I have a... My background as a professional actor probably helped with this. Because when I was, as a professional actor, I called myself, like, a professional rejectee.

Jason Mm.

Hayden You know? Because you are. Basically, you put yourself out there day in, day out, you drive all over town to get 30 minutes on camera, and then you get rejected over and over and over again.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden So I think the skill set I got from that is learning to be disappointed day in, day out, but not letting it wear you down.

Hayden And if it's something you believe in and something you wanna do, to go after it again. Right? So I really actually do think that bec- being a professional rejectee really helped me with my business. Because bus- it, it's somewhat similar where you collect a lot of nos in business as well.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden So I think...

Hayden But here's... Yeah, it's a good question, though. I don't know. You could... I guess you asked, is it something that you had with you, or is it something that you cultivated? Maybe it's a bit of both. Yeah. [00:12:00] Like, maybe genetically speaking, I was predisi- predisposed to having a resilience, a resilient, unshakable self-belief as a quality and characteristic in me.

Hayden But I think that that's, um, nature, right? You're born with something genetically. But the nurture- Yeah ... is what you choose to do with it. So I think, well, nurture, having my parents being immigrants and coming to this country, and also not knowing the language and building a, this successful Chinese restaurant business.

Hayden So I think I inherited some of their resilience of probably getting rejected a lot, not knowing the language, building a business.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden But then I, but I do, did choose to pursue something that was hard.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden Right? So I think-

Jason Yeah.

Hayden And for those- ... that was my intention.

Jason A- and for those of you guys listening, if you know the Enneagram-

Hayden Mm

Jason Hayden's a three.

Hayden Mm-hmm.

Jason Right? Yeah. And so that's achievement.

Hayden Correct. Yeah.

Jason Right? So, so if, with achievement being... I know I'm hem- hand waving- Yeah. ... over it next to [00:13:00] an Enneagram expert. But with achievement being the core motivation for an achiever, um, it's like you automatically do those reps because that's your motivation.

Jason Yeah. So, like, no matter if you've done it to achieve and if you have achieved, well, having it, having achieved it, that builds that strength. But then having not achieved it, you just do it, you find something else to achieve. Right. And then you kind of build it up, right?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Jason So, so, like, when we talk about unshakable, like, when you put unshakable with self-belief- It kind of is like, well, anyone can have self-belief, right?

Jason But the unshakable part is in the face of, um, turmoil, right, or challenge or rejections. And, and so it sounds like it was formed a lot as you were a professional actor. Mm. Um, but then, like, was there... Did it, did it... Did that kind of put it into pocket for you? 'Cause, like, for me, um, when I started in s- like, I started in sales- Mm

Jason when I got my first job, and I was selling vitamins, you know? And

[00:14:00] so we did all types of stuff. We did door to door. We hit up friends and family, and we talk- tried to tell people about, like, better health and all this stuff. Yeah. And, like, I got rejected a ton. Yeah. And I, I do credit a lot of that, that power behind, like, my resilience is because, like, well, I got rejected, but I still had numbers to hit.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Jason You know? I still had to make a sale. Stuff still had to happen for me. but I didn't do it on purpose, right? Like, I did it 'cause I had to. Yeah. Um, and back then, like, I think my, my core motivation back then was if I, i- if I don't figure this part out on how to put myself out there, I'll never get a girlfriend.

Speaker 3 Mm.

Jason I think that was my- Yeah. That was my core motivation, uh, 'cause I was a teenager. Um, but coming forward, right, like, did there happen to come a point where you turned that, you, you built up this strong force of, like, unshakeableness we could call it, right?

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Um, did there ever come a point where you're like, "Oh, well, now I'll cultivate it, [00:15:00] and I'm gonna do weird things."

Jason Mm. Like, I'm gonna do things on a random Tuesday- Yeah ... or a Wednesday in my week to go, go build some unshakeableness or- Yeah ... unshakeable self-belief?

Hayden Yeah, that's a really good question. Um

Hayden Yes and no. I mean, I, once again, I don't think in the moment I was like, um, "All right, I'm gonna build some unshakeableness." But I, I do think there's intention about, all right, let's see how many, like, no's I can get today, you know? So it was like, you know, let's see, um... 'Cause I would always focus on the process, not the outcome.

Hayden The process being like- Mm-hmm ... all right, let me see how many people I can ask today whether or not they wanna join this. Let me see how many people, um, would be interested to hear what I have to say today. So I think that part was intentional. I don't know if- Yeah ... I had labeled it yet, I'm building unshakeableness.

Hayden Um, but I do think this idea of, um, work- building, like a [00:16:00] skill set and deliberately, uh, was something that was intentional. Um, and I, I do th- I do wanna make, wanna make distinction, though, between unshakele- unshakeable self-belief and, like, arrogance-

Jason Mm ...

Hayden and ignorance or lack of self-awareness. I think that's important because-

Jason Like the term ignorance on fire?

Hayden I haven't... I, I haven't heard that term before. Uh-

Jason Oh, well, it's- Yeah ... the, it's the concept of you're, you're just so sure of yourself- Mm ... because you're, you're ignorant of the actual cost- Yeah ... or the reason behind it, that you're ignorance on fire. Yeah. So it's like you might be exuding exhilaration- Yeah

Jason excitement and all of this, but without the actual knowledge behind-

Hayden Yeah ...

Jason the thing or whatever you're

Hayden talking about. Okay. Yeah, I think, uh, that's a good distinction, is that unshakeable self-belief, it is not ignorance on fire. It's not taking honest feedback and having reflection, and I, I think that's important, too, because with deliberate practice, it's doing something, but then after doing something,

[00:17:00] to stop and reflect.

Hayden What worked well? What didn't? How do I feel about myself? What do I need to change? What do I need to shift? Because I think, um

Hayden Did you see Marty Supreme by, by chance, the film? No.

Jason No,

Hayden I haven't. I mean, it's still out in the theaters, and I mean, I, um, I mean, the acting is great, but the character of Marty Supreme was a little bit unlikable, 'cause I think the character was played by Timothée Chalamet, which I... Was great as an actor, but the character I personally did not like, because I actually think the character was an unhealthy Enneagram 3.

Hayden Mm. And what I, what I mean by an unhealthy Enneagram 3 is like he had blind ambition, like ruthless ambition. He was going to be the world best, um, table tennis, you know, ping pong player in the world. But like you asked earlier, like at what cost? Yeah. Right? And for him in that movie, the cost was like all his personal relationships, like all his things were crumbling.

Hayden Um, and, and there was a lack of awareness I think. Maybe until the end of the movie, which I think is the point of the movie, when he [00:18:00] realized, you know, what is the point of achievement if you don't have good relationships with people? Mm. What's the point of achievement if you don't have good connection with people?

Jason Yeah.

Hayden Um, but I think, I think it's important that unshakable self-belief, it isn't just about ruthless blind ambition where you're not pausing to reflect on what is this costing me. You know, am I pursuing something and become- being the person I want to become?

Jason Yeah. And, and so, so I'm tracking with you 'cause this unshakable self...

Jason It's a lot of syllables. Yeah. I'm gonna come up with like a... What's unshakable self-belief? USB. Okay. Right?

Hayden Yes. Yeah.

Jason I guess it's the USB now. Yeah. Um, but with that as an example, um, it sounds like the deliberate practice actually came out of, like the, the skill was built through the pursuit of a worthy goal, and not just because you wanted to build it, right?

Jason Like, well, to be acting, like you wanted to be on stage, on the screen. Mm. Right? For [00:19:00] your France retreat, you were collecting nos, but like the reason why you were collecting nos was to get the re- Mm ... to make the retreat- Yeah ... a reality. And so, so it seems like for this deliberate practice of USB, you, you need to have a worthy goal to be going after- Yeah

Jason that also fuels you in a way- Yeah ... to maybe either shelter or protect you or make you more resilient when you do get those rejections and nos.

Hayden Well, I think- It's getting clear on what your purpose is and what your meaning and your mission is. So I actually, like, when I... Acting and being on stage in front of the camera and then now, and in coaching, it actually is all the same purpose and mission.

Hayden 'Cause my purpose and mission in life, it really is to help people increase their self-awareness, you know, and to create a life that they wanna live.

Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

Hayden And even as a- a- even as an actor, uh, you know, I love making people laugh, I love making people [00:20:00] think, I love people broadening their perspectives, and you can do that as an actor.

Hayden As a coach, that's exactly what I do, you know, broadening people's perspective- Yeah ... changing how they think.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden So my mission and purpose has always been the same. It's just the medium with which you do it can change.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden Right? So I think that's important, too, that... Especially with, uh, you know, I've worked with a lot of people, um, in the entertainment industry, and it is, it is fun to be in front of the camera.

Hayden It is fun to perform, but then getting... Helping them get clear about why are you doing it.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden Right? And then if they really get clear on that, then th- they m- how- however they choose, the next step they choose to create in their life, whether it's continuing to be an actor or not, if it's still pursuing th- that same purpose, I think is what makes life worth living.

Jason Mm.

Hayden Um, because I, I do believe that whatever I, what prof- whatever profession I do, it has to [00:21:00] help people increase their self-awareness-

Jason Mm ...

Hayden and inspire them to create a life that they wanna live.

Jason Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And when we talk about, like, let's go back to the France retreat then- Mm-hmm ... and when it was the idea and then you're like, "All right.

Jason I've got the unshakable self-belief. I'm going in on it," like, what was the cost of that?

Hayden Mm.

Jason Like, in, like, personally, relationally, um, to your business, like, as you were pursuing it. Like, we know the, we know the end of the story that- Yeah ... it was successful and you did multiple times now.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason But, like, when you were first going in, um, there was no guarantee.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Right? Besides the self-belief- Yeah ... that you would happen. So what were the costs for you- Mm ... when you started to pursue that?

Hayden The first thing that comes to mind is probably time. And what I mean by that is time is our most precious resource, I believe, right? 'Cause time is the one resource you really can't get back. Like- Mm-hmm ... money [00:22:00] you can lose, you can get it back, right?

Jason Yeah.

Hayden time you can't. So- In hindsight, like, I would say time was the cost, meaning if you're dedicating a lot of time to one thing, that means you're doing less

Hayden dedicating less time to something else. Yeah. Right? So, th- that first year, if I was putting all this time into trying to create that retreat, you know, I may not have... Well, it's not I may not have. I wasn't putting as much time building other parts of my business that may have been more financially lucrative at that time.

Jason Mm. So, like, like, um, building your one-on-one clients- Yeah ... or your corporate clients- Yeah ... and those kind of things.

Hayden Yeah, 'cause one could say, like, um, low-hanging fruit, let's say. So like, let's say the f- filling a retreat in France, let's say, is high hanging fruit, which means it takes a lot of time and effort.

Hayden Low-hanging... Well, and, and I wanna say, like, [00:23:00] even building a coaching business, like, uh, creating one-on-one clients could be, you know, high-hanging fruit as well starting, starting off. But then at- Yeah ... this point when I was doing the retreat, I was already pretty established as a coach.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Hayden So I would say in terms of ROI, um, you know, reaching out to people to have them become one-on-one client, you know, may have taken less effort and time than trying to get a group of people to fly to France, right?

Jason Yeah.

Hayden Uh, so I wanna make that clear. I'm not saying that building one-on one coaching practice is low-hanging fruit or easy by any

Jason means. Yeah, but for an established business you have a established reputation- Correct,

Hayden yeah ...

Jason being like eight times top 20-

Hayden Yeah ...

Jason like-

Hayden Yeah ...

Jason LA coaches. Like, like y- you, you've built up quite a rep- repertoire of- Yeah

Jason of like achievements, credentials- Yeah ... who you've helped. And, and so I, I'd imagine you have a pretty significant referral source from other people as well, right?

Hayden Yeah. My greatest source of my business, it is word of mouth and referral, which I'm very, very fortunate for. [00:24:00] Um- Yeah.

Jason Okay. So yeah, l- let's say, okay- Yeah

Jason so, um, just so no one's like, "This guy saying one-on-one coaching is such low-hanging fruit- Yes, yes ... for him," and they're like bashing on you. Sure. Well, you know, like it, it's an established- Yeah ... part of the business, right? So l- let's say, okay, so prioritizing a high-hanging fruit versus low hanging- Mm ... fruit, um, like, I guess, how did you mentally approach that?

Jason Mm. Was it kind of like, "Oh, I should be..." Like, "Why don't I just do this low-hanging fruit right now?" Yeah. Or was it like, well, what was it... Or was it conscious, like, "I've got this high-hanging fruit goal. Like, I'm setting aside this time."

Hayden Yeah.

Jason And there's no like guilt or s- sadness- Yeah ... about not doing as much for- Mm

Jason your, your, your bread and butter- Yeah ... part of the business, so to speak.

Hayden Well, I think it goes back to, like I shared earlier, about, like, identifying something that you really love to do that combines, like, different passions and then checking with yourself. It's like, "Is this a full body hell yes? Is this like something I really wanna pursue?"

Hayden And for me, a retreat in France was a full body [00:25:00] hell yes. So then was it worth it for me? Because I knew that if it- was went well that I would wanna do it again and again Yeah,

Jason yeah

Hayden Which goes back to, like, I love you asked this earlier about philosophy. So another philosophy I have in my life is, like, if I come across something that I just have a full body hell yes that I really wanna do it, my philosophy on it or my mindset on it is like, let's see how far I can take this thing

Jason Mm.

Hayden Right? So then I had this idea about France. I really wanted to do it, and I said, "Let's see how far I can take this thing." Because I know it's not gonna be easy at the beginning.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden But I know it's gonna be worth it.

Jason Mm.

Hayden Right?

Jason And where does that knowing of worth it-

Hayden Mm ...

Jason come from? Like, how did that... Is that part of the full body hell yes?

Hayden I think it goes back to a value of, um... I call it, this is a value that I actually created when I was in coach training in 2011, so I've had this value for a while now. I call it a [00:26:00] no regrets value. Um, um, a value for me, it's something that if I have a decision to make, like a big decision, I check in with my values.

Hayden usually I check in with my no regrets value, and my no regrets value is like at the end of my life when I'm 120 years old, right? At the end of my life and I'm like laying on my deathbed, if I don't do this thing, will I regret it?

Jason Hmm.

Hayden And then if it's something where I'm like, "Eh, not a big deal," then maybe I, I don't really wanna do it that bad.

Hayden But if it's like, if I think that I'm 120 years young on my deathbed, right? And thinking about, God, I didn't do that thing, would I... I, I regret it, then, then I... That helps me make the decision that I should pursue it. Hmm. So then for the franchise tree, well, for most things, a lot of things in my life like franchise tree, becoming an entrepreneur, starting on my own business, like there [00:27:00] was that measure.

Hayden I did measure up, did measure it up to the no regrets value.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Hayden Right? It's like, if I don't do this, will I regret it? If it's a yes, then I need to do it.

Jason Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's awesome. A no regrets value.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason And, and so like, when it comes to this, this value, right? Like, you talked about a full body hell yes.

Hayden Mm.

Jason For you, like, how does that show up in your body?

Hayden Hmm. Yeah, I think, um-

Jason Like, if you were to describe like a sensation or where in your body for you feels like that makes it a hell yes

Hayden Yeah, I think a full body hell yes is checking in with myself, like, or checking with my no regrets value, but then maybe scanning my body from head to toe and then, like, listening to my body.

Hayden But then really I think the burst of energy probably comes from my, my core, where it's like, you know... Because I, I believe my, my gut, my core,

[00:28:00] my intuition, my instinct is probably all up here, right? And if it's like if you're, you know, checking it from my head to my... Or my toes to my head, and my core is like, "You gotta do this," then that's a full body hell yes for me.

Jason Mm. Yeah, I experience it similarly. Um, but it's, it's more of like a, like almost like a forward lean-

Hayden Mm ...

Jason in energy of like, "You better move on this."

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Um, rather than like a, like if nothing moves.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Right? It's like if the body's quiet. Uh, sometimes... Although sometimes it does show up as like a, a s- like a quiet assuredness. Cut in

Jason so how does this philosophy of, like, no regrets- Mm ... of, um... Yeah. The no regrets value, right?

Jason Um, how does that show up on, like, a regular Tuesday? Like, if someone were to just kinda be a fly on the wall- Mm ... in your life and, I don't know, what do you do on a random Tuesday? Like, maybe you're out on an errand. Mm. You're, you're grabbing something or you're at the grocery store, and all of a sudden-

Hayden Yeah[00:29:00]

Jason this, a thought or something hits you where it's like a, "Oh, I better..." So, so maybe first give the viewers a little bit about, like, well, maybe it's a small thing. Like, if, if you remember in the last couple weeks, if you had, like, a hell yes to do something, that was like, even if it's small, like, I don't know, like, get yourself a coffee.

Hayden Mm-hmm.

Jason When you usually don't get your k- yourself a coffee from there. Um, then to, like, the hell yes and the process that you gotta go through.

Hayden Well, um- Yeah, I think you als- yeah, you asked, it's a random Tuesday, and let's say you have an idea or come across something, and you're like, it's a h- y- your body is saying, "Hell yes."

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Hayden And I, I think this is a really good question because then it... 'Cause I think you also asked, like, how do you make a decision on, or how do you check in with yourself to make sure it's a hell yes or something like that. But I think this is really important for everyone to understand too is that [00:30:00] Intuition or when you get a really cool idea, I think you need to have a filter system.

Hayden And then for me, it's head, heart, and gut. Head,

Speaker 3 heart, and gut.

Hayden Yeah. Head, heart, and gut, which is also through the lens of the Enneagram also, which, you know, the Enneagram also teaches us, you know, the head is about slowing down and look at... looking at things logically and an- analytically, making sure it makes sense.

Hayden Let's look at the facts and the data. And then there's the heart, which is, uh, how do you feel about this? You know, what is your emotions about this? How will you feel if you do it? How will you feel if you don't do it? And then there's the gut, which is, well, what is your body telling you? You know, what's your gut telling you?

Hayden Um, and I think all three are important. And then I know that I'm a high action person, or high action is in, um, connected to, like, body and gut, which is, "Oh, I, I, let's do it. Let's do it."

Jason Yeah.

Hayden So knowing that about me, I do have to slow down and filter it through the head, heart, and gut.

Jason Oh.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason I see.

Hayden So then not every single idea that comes [00:31:00] across my desk becomes...

Hayden actually becomes a hell yes. So I think I wanna make the distinction between a full body hell yes and something that seems like a really cool idea.

Jason Right.

Hayden Right?

Jason So it might be a gut hell yes- Yeah ... but your head, heart- Yeah ... hasn't checked in yet.

Hayden Yeah, you have to, like, slow down. And those

Jason might say no.

Hayden Correct. Correct. Or maybe not now. Or not now. Or maybe not yet, or maybe it's like when you- Yeah ... put it through the filter of head, heart, and gut, it's like, "Huh."

Jason Maybe not that way.

Hayden Yeah, maybe not that way. Or, or maybe, like, I'm not as interested in this as I thought.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden So, um, I mean, there's been a lot of examples like that honestly, where it's, like, writing a book.

Hayden Like, I, you know- Okay ... I'm, like, still writing a book. Yeah. I've been writing it for a while.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden Um, and I actually... I do wanna go back to it, uh, because I think I've had more time for, like, head and heart. And what I mean by that is, like, oh, I want to write a book, and I start writing this book. I, I, I hired a book coach, spent a lot of money.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden Um, great book coach, which I'm gonna connect back with. But then something in my, like, head and [00:32:00] heart, like, wasn't connecting or clicking, so then it's kind of been put on the back burner now. But now I wanna go back now checking with my heart again, be like, all right, how do I, how do I feel about this?

Hayden If I don't finish this book, will I regret it? The answer is yes. So now I know that through my no regrets filter I wanna check back and do it, but I'm using my head more. So all right, let's look at what I've al- let's read what I already wrote, what makes sense, what doesn't, who's my target a- audience, like, what is it exactly that I wanna say?

Hayden So I'm doing a lot more head 'cause I also in my heart know that I, I wanna do it. I know it's important to me. It goes to, to my mission. But I know my, my gut, my body, like, wants to move fast to, like, just get it done, but I also wanna make sure that all three are in alignment, the head, heart, and gut.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden Um, so I think oftentimes, I think

Hayden In my evolution as a, as a person, in my evolution as an Enneagram 3, which is a lot about achievement and getting things done, I think I've learned to

[00:33:00] Use that filter of head, heart, and gut like more deliberately in that the skill set, which goes back to, I think using it, having a good filter is a skill set with which the more you deliberately practice it, you better get, you better, uh, you, you get at that.

Jason Yeah. Yeah, and it sounds like, well, well, um, on the Enneagram end, like you and I are pretty opposite. Like I'm high thinking- Mm-hmm ... and low action. Yeah. And like medium feeling. Yeah. You know? Um, so like a lot of what you say is a little alien to me. Yeah. I might come up with an idea and immediately know- Yeah

Jason how logical or rational it is. Yeah. And then yet my heart and my body might be like, "You should still do it." And I'm like, "What's wrong with you?" Like, w- what, you want to do all of this stuff? Right? Yeah. Um, rather than, oh, well if, i- if it, like let's say someone is, uh, someone unintegrated or not familiar- Hmm.

Jason Yeah ... with making sure they slow down a bit, like they might already be in action, like calling up the book coach-

Hayden Yeah ...

Jason when that idea lands. Yeah. And then like their head catches up

[00:34:00] maybe a couple months later- Yeah ... and be like, "Oh, maybe not right now."

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Right? So, so like it's so fascinating hearing you break it down of like, oh, well sometimes you need to slow down, sometimes you need to speed up.

Jason Yeah. Like, I need to speed up.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason You need to slow down- Hmm ... to get the same effect. So I, I hear that importance of, of like knowing yourself-

Hayden Hmm ...

Jason and, and how you typically operate. Um, and, and I say I... It feels like both when you are resourced and when you're not resourced. Hmm. Like it, like if you're already overwhelmed, like you, you fall to the level of your standards.

Jason Hmm. Right? Tony Robbins likes to say that. Hmm. And so by falling to the level of our default or our standard, maybe being so high action-focused, like yours would be, well, you just take immediate action on anything that comes across your table. And I would be like, I would take no action-

Hayden Yeah ...

Jason on anything, because all I'll be doing is thinking about everything.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Right?

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Yeah. Well, that's the-

Hayden Well, I want to add something that you just [00:35:00] shared too, that jumped out at me is like, so yeah, so there's thinking, action, and feeling, right? And then, you know, we all have those three centers, and we all have one of those centers, um, is higher than the other. Like you share, like my highest center is I have a bias for action.

Hayden Your highest center is the bias for thinking, right? Mm-hmm. And then s- there are some people out there, you know, their highest center is feeling, where it's all about the emotions come first.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden But something that you shared is like, but if all people are more self aware and integrated, it gets to the same destination.

Hayden And what I mean by that is like let's say we all have a, let's say we all have the, uh, the same goal. Like me, say you're higher in thinking, I'm higher in action. Let's say we had a third person in our trio that's highest in feeling. Yeah. But if we were all on a team and we had the same common goal to reach this destination, if we're all really deliberate and aware of ourselves, we'll, we'll all still get there if we all align our thinking, action, and feeling a little bit more intentionally.

Hayden Because I think where the disconnect is like, you know, we all want to get here, but you're only stuck in [00:36:00] thinking, I'm only stuck in action, this person's only stuck in feeling, then there's like disconnect. And then we're, you know, uh, not agreeing on things, we're not getting on the same page, because I'm like, "Let's just effing do it."

Hayden And you're like, "Louis, we need to slow down." And this person's like, "We're not thinking about how it makes people feel." And then we're like not- It's like, "

Jason Wait, we need a plan." Yeah. Like, "Wait, you need to go make

Hayden calls right now." Exactly. Like

Jason all that stuff.

Hayden So I think I, I love what you share. It's like, well, if we're all intentional, we need all three centers.

Hayden We have all three centers. And when all of us are intentional about it, like for you, it's like, uh, being aware you're stuck in thinking. You know? And then incorporate, "Well, how do I feel about this?" But then ultimately asking yourself, checking your gut, "Do I still really want to do this?"

Jason Yeah.

Hayden Like it's something...

Hayden If I, if so, what's one thing I can do?

Jason Yeah.

Hayden Because also checking in with all three centers could give you data that you don't want to do it. Yeah. And that's okay too, because that's where sometimes- It's even

Jason better sometimes.

Hayden It's even... Well, that's where my high think- That's when I intentionally use more of my thinking, has helped me filter out a lot of things I don't want to do.

Hayden Yeah. Because c- or put it o- put [00:37:00] it on pause. And what I mean by that is I li- I like to take action quick. But if I slow down and be, and look at the time it's gonna take, do some more research, ask other people who've done it, look at the, the financial resources it might take to do something, it might not make sense to do that right now.

Hayden And I think that's okay. Yeah. Rather than quickly doing it, then all of a sudden, oh crap, I have to, um, you know, redo something because I didn't know what I was doing or I spent a lot of money I didn't need to spend. So I think, um- For me, learning to slow down, it's not only saving... A- at the moment, sometimes it feels like I, I just want to get it done.

Hayden But then if I'm doing it hastily and making a lot of mistakes and spend, like s- financially spending a lot of money that I didn't need to spend, then slowing down, I think, is, is, um, more efficient. Which ultimately I love being efficient and more effective. Yeah. But sometimes being slow, slower, is what is more efficient.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Yeah. And one thing I wanna, like, double tap on as you were saying is you don't have to do it all alone.

Hayden [00:38:00] Hm. Yeah.

Jason Right? So being someone who's high action- Yeah ... if you were to partner up with someone who's high thinking or high feeling- Yeah ... and being in a team that has, like, people with different strengths-

Hayden Mm

Jason um, you don't have to be the one even corralling yourself sometimes.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Right? Like, I could have chose to do, like try to produce- Mm ... this podcast myself and do all this stuff, and yet I know because I'm high thinking, that's one of the reasons- Mm ... I would probably be down, like, this entire rabbit hole of researching the best-

Hayden Yeah

Jason tools, the best equipment. What... Where do I buy them? Yeah. Where can I get the best deal on them? Can I get them used? Yeah. Like, like it's this whole thing, rather than doing the thing, right? Yeah. And so by partnering up with someone- Mm ... who already has that covered, like Hector, like all the rest- Yeah ... has really started to click together where it's like, oh well, right now my job is to come here, find the right people to talk to, like you- Yeah

Jason and then have those conversations that will really enrich and get to share, like, a slice of our [00:39:00] lives with the viewer.

Hayden You know? Yeah, which leads me to the point of, you know, in our quest to become a better version of ourselves, how important it is to actively ask for feedback- Mm ... to actively seek feedback.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden And why I'm thinking about that is oftentimes something simple that we can all do, myself included, I need to do this more intentionally, is when you have an idea, to seek out other people, to simply ask like, "What am I missing?"

Jason Hm.

Hayden Like, "What haven't I considered?"

Jason Yeah.

Hayden Right? Because as someone who has a bias for action, you have a, you know, bias for, um, the thinking.

Hayden You know, asking someone who's operates differently, "What am I not seeing?" Or, "What am I missing?" You're gonna gain feedback that you probably didn't consider. Yeah.

Jason Yeah. Absolutely.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason And I think, um, there's one other question I wanted to go into, which was, um, lately you've been writing a lot about staying present-

Hayden Mm

Jason and regulating rather than rushing.

Hayden Mm.

Jason Right? So I'm curious, like, do you experience that [00:40:00] as a form of surrender or does that word not resonate for you?

Hayden Well, my initial reaction with the word surrender is like giving up so, and giving up for me is like doesn't sit well. So I don't know if it's- Hmm ... but maybe it's about, I wonder if there's a different... But maybe it's a re- a different, maybe I need to redefine what surrender means 'cause, um, I don't think it necessarily means giving up.

Hayden Um, I think there's

Jason Yeah, I, I-

Hayden I have an idea. So maybe for me, surrender could be like letting go.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden Relinquish power and control sometimes. Uh, 'cause when I think of surrender, I think of Bugs Bunny c- Yeah ... you know, literally waving the sur- white flag, right? Which is of, uh, surrendering, giving up. So I don't believe it's...

Hayden What was the question? I'm sorry. Um-

Jason Yeah, like w- well, presence and- Yeah ... regulation, right? Um, how does that [00:41:00] kind of show up? Because when I read that, I was like, oh, like, well, for me, that chapter in my life was surrender.

Hayden Mm.

Jason And it was about, like you said, like letting go of the things I had no control over.

Jason Mm. Um, things that I probably shouldn't have control over. Yeah. Like, I have no control over what my daughter likes and doesn't like.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason You know? Right now it's K-pop Demon Hunter. Yeah. And like, I really don't care that much for that. Yeah. You know? But we get to hear the song like every day, multiple- Yeah

Jason times a day because that's what she's into right now. Yeah. Um, and, and like, there's still like, that's not, not, that's not my job to control.

Hayden Yeah,

Jason yeah. Right? So I have to let go of that part.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason But on the flip side of it, it's like, well, how does that show up for me in the work that I do? Yeah. And all of those different pieces.

Jason Like, sometimes there, there feels like there's 20 projects going on, and the reality is I can't do all of them at once. Mm. 'Cause I simply don't have the bandwidth.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Jason Um, so I have to let go of some of those.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Jason Right? Like, and surrendering, [00:42:00] like, like, so, so for me, surrendering has been this combination of- Yeah

Jason um, ambition. Some, like, some of them is like nice to have or like, oh, that's-

Speaker 3 Yeah ...

Jason low-hanging fruit projects- Yeah ... that end up taking too much time, and they, they actually bleed time away from- Yeah ... whatever, wherever that fruit's hanging- Mm ... the more important projects

Hayden I just realized too that I think maybe the issue I have with the word surrender is that it makes me think of, like, when someone is, um, in a battle or a war, and surrendering comes when you're, like, cornered.

Speaker 3 Mm.

Hayden And you feel like you have no other choice. And then I surrender because I've been backed into a corner, so I think maybe that's the issue I have, the distinction between surrender and let go or relinquish.

Jason Mm.

Hayden Because I feel like, uh, surrender for me it's a l- it's, like, I literally have no other choice, 'cause if I don't surrender I'm going to die or...

Hayden Right?

Jason Yeah. It's like life- Yeah ... or death is a surrender.

Hayden So when I think of letting [00:43:00] go or relinquish, I think of it as a more deliberate choice. Yeah. Where there's more agency. Yeah. And you're absolutely right, that sometimes there's 10 things I wanna do, but I could either... I need to let go of some in order to focus on, on others.

Hayden So the original question you asked was about presence, right? 'Cause it-

Jason Yeah. It's 'cause you were writing about presence, and the example that you gave was, like, you were cleaning your car.

Hayden Oh, yeah.

Jason Right? And, and then you slowed down-

Hayden Mm ...

Jason in that moment. And so, um, I wanna see if we could, like, tap on that of, like, how did you experience...

Jason Like, when that shifted for you, was it a letting go? Mm. Or was it just, like, a focusing in? Like, how did that present moment, uh, like, show up for you?

Hayden Well, first there was an awareness that I was rushing into, like, trying to vacuum my car. Like, I was aware of it. I was like doing it as fast as I can. So then I caught my- [00:44:00] so the, there's an awareness of, like, well, um, wow, I'm moving really fast right now.

Hayden But then the next step I was like, "Why am, why, why am I in such a hurry?" Like, I was asking myself this question, "Why am I in such a hurry?" It was a Saturday. I literally had nothing to do that day. Yeah. So the... Once again, the word surrender doesn't necessarily come up, but I think it was a more of a consc- 'cause surrender, once again, like, I feel like it's a lack of agency and lack of choice.

Hayden Yeah. So for me, I think it was a conscious... So maybe it could be of letting go and just- Let's

Jason say- Yeah ... so it started with a moment of awareness.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason And then, and then you, so you became aware. Yeah. And so, so where did you go after awareness?

Hayden Then it was intention to be, like, just leaning in and like, well- I know I have nowhere to be, and I wanna just lean into get...

Hayden And honestly, it was the f- if I rush through this, I'm not gonna get all the dog hair in my car. So then I was- So it

Jason was an efficiency

Hayden play. Yeah. But it was efficiency play. But what's interesting though is, all right, so I have nowhere to be. I don't need to rush through this. I realize the faster I [00:45:00] go, the less dog hair I'm picking up.

Hayden Mm. But I asked myself, "Why am I in such a hurry? I have nowhere to go." So I leaned into focusing on the process of just, like, just vacuum it and do it well. And the unexpected surprise was that I enjoyed it. I was like, "This is kind of fun."

Jason Huh.

Hayden You know? And then as I was doing it, like, I got all the dog hair out the backseat of my car.

Hayden Um-

Jason Which I'm sure you enjoyed as well, 'cause

Hayden that's- Which I really enjoyed- ... always a big achievement ... 'cause now it's like, wow- Yeah ... there's no more dog hair. Um, and I think it was- leaning into the process And just enjoying the process as you're, as, as you're doing it. Like, I think it is important for us to ask ourselves, like, "Why am I in such a hurry?

Hayden Like, why am I rushing through this?" 'Cause I think so oftentimes we rush through life.

Speaker 3 Mm.

Hayden Um, and I posted, you know, that article on LinkedIn, and I, and I got some good feedback from it, too, or it resonated with people, where people commented, like, them catching themselves rushing through their morning coffee.

Hayden Like, why? Like, where are you go- You know, like, why are you rushing through [00:46:00] your morning coffee or-

Jason Yeah ...

Hayden catching themselves just going fast all the time. And someone did mention, though, that part of it is, like, there's so much stimulation these days, like answering emails and text messages and checked LinkedIn notifications and Facebook messages.

Hayden Like, our nervous systems are always on overdrive. Mm. So it's almost like when we don't need to be running fast, we're still running fast, even when it's not necessary.

Jason Yeah. Yeah, and some people have told me, like, that's how LA feels- Mm ... compared to, like, some other cities. Yeah. And so, like, this, it's... Like, LA as a, as, like, a nervous system-

Hayden Yeah

Jason is real- pretty frenetic.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Right? And it takes a lot of energy, actually, or a lot of intention to slow down even in these places. Like, I believe the people are out there. Um, but at the same time, like, that, that's the feel you get, like, when you're driving on the freeway. Everyone's trying to cut off- Mm

Jason everyone to get to wherever they're trying to go. Um, same thing on surface streets- Yeah ... and all of that, right? So I feel that. I feel that. Like, that one resonated with me [00:47:00] though because it was one of those moments where it was like, um... Like, a couple things came to mind. Like, it's the, the Navy SEAL thing.

Jason Like, slow is smooth- Mm. Yeah ... smooth is fast, right? Um, but then there was also, like, the, the fact that he's like, "Oh," and it became enjoyable.

Speaker 3 Mm.

Jason Right? And, and, like, I have, I have a working theory of, like... A, a friend of mine last week had asked me how would I define embodiment, and when I looked at that, it was, um, off the cuff, and so it was body, mind, and spirit aligned.

Speaker 4 Mm.

Jason Right? But it doesn't equal embodiment. Embodiment is actually just the product of those three- Yeah ... coming into line, and it's kind of like a more of a network effect.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Jason Like, embodiment wasn't really there before, but once you put it together, it's one of those effects that come out of that.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Right? And so even this, like, small moment where you're vacuuming your car, you, you, your mind came back down.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Your body was in [00:48:00] motion.

Hayden Mm-hmm.

Jason And then your spirit responded- Yeah ... and you felt joy, right? Yeah. And, and that's so cool c- Yeah ... 'cause I think, like, em- a lot, a lot of people, when they look at embodiment or achievement and these things, they only look at those, like, huge things- Yeah

Jason in their life. Like, three times France retreat. Now it's getting... Now people are signing up now when it's, like, months in the future. Yeah. When before you were, like, coming down to the wire of, like, your deposit- Yeah ... and wondering, like, "Okay, I need to get a few more- Yeah ... to make this actually, like, click in," you know?

Jason Um, and you know, like, we see kinda like these bigger events and then these smaller events- And it reminds me of the quote of like the, the world in a grain of sand.

Hayden Mm.

Jason I think it's a Buddhist quote, uh, but I might be totally wrong. But it's like if you see the world in a grain of sand and you see the... You see like a grain of sand in the world, right?

Jason Mm. Like it's this, this idea that even in the sm- like the small things are the big things.

Hayden Mm.

Jason And if we do these small things well, that deliberate [00:49:00] practice will become how we operate on our, on the bigger projects in our life, the more important projects in our life. Right. And I've been finding that, um, very true in my life.

Hayden Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I like that quote. It is, it does sound very Buddhist, you know, that, that this idea of, um-

Jason I totally butchered it, I know it.

Hayden But it, it, I mean, it, it goes to that, uh, h- that quote, right? That, that, that quote also goes to the other quote about how you do one thing is how you do anything, right?

Hayden How you do one thing is how you do everything, and it's the, the same principle-

Jason Yeah ...

Hayden of- If you could be so, like slow down and, and being present and mindful on, you know, how you enjoy your cup of coffee in the morning int- you know, intentionally just, well, take five minutes to just drink your coffee and don't do anything else.

Hayden Like, what could be the ripple effects of that? A- a- and, um-

Speaker 4 Yeah ...

Hayden and it does go down to the, the, the brain science of how important it is to slow down and [00:50:00] do nothing sometimes. Like, it feels so inefficient, but the more we learn to do nothing actually translates to the things you do, you do d- you do... When you do nothing, you do the things you do better.

Jason Mm. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I guess when, when it comes to it, I loved exploring these, these different areas, right?

Hayden Yeah.

Jason And the, the thing I want to kinda touch on is, like, okay, so we've been talking a lot about you, and what I would love to hear a, like, some around is for your clients, like, as you've been working with clients everywhere from, like, from, from corporate- Mm

Jason to executives, um, like the top tech companies like Google- Mm ... and Meta, and, um, like, how have these patterns then affected your own life as you've- Mm ... been setting your own goals and doing those things? 'Cause I've been seeing a lot from you lately [00:51:00] that's been, like, really incredible because, like, I feel like you're, you're more and more the embodiment of your work- Mm

Jason where it's almost like you don't have to really tell it as much. You just show, and then people see that and they're like, "Huh."

Speaker 3 Mm.

Jason Right? Um, so I don't know where the question was there. Like, I, I- Yeah ... number one, it is a compliment. I see that- Yeah ... in you, and that's been really, like... It, it, it's really e- exciting for me to see because I'm, I'm walking an embodiment path myself- Yeah

Jason right now. Um, but like, yeah, like what, what kinda comes up with you, in you when we talk about that?

Hayden Well, firstly, thank you, you know, f- for noticing and acknowledging, uh, me seeing more in my work and my writing, like, about, like, being, right? Mm. Versus just, versus doing. And I think what comes up for me is like- I do think at the end of the day what matters is your connection with other people.

Speaker 4 Mm.

Hayden And having, like, [00:52:00] just good relationships with, you know, friends and family and loved ones and coworkers and colleagues, and I think ultimately that's what it's about, right? And, um, and then I, I tend to work with a lot of people who come to me who are, like, overachievers, right? Or they're high performance and, you know.

Hayden But really, like, my work is helping them return to, like, being the human being that they wanna be, right? Making sure that their intent aligns with their impact. Um, like I don't work with anyone who intentionally tries to make people feel awful, but sometimes that can be the unintended impact because they're so busy striving to succeed or striving to make the deadline.

Hayden And so I think for me personally, um, and I think you touched upon this earlier, but especially as, as an Enneagram 3 who values achievement and success, it's like at what [00:53:00] cost, right? And, and if, if the cost is poor relationships or not connecting with people, then you have to redefine what success is. So I think I'm trying to embody and role model, well, what if you could be s- externally successful, meaning like having a successful finances and having successful image, and at the same time having really, like just fulfilling authentic relationships with people.

Hayden Like, wouldn't that be great success? Like, wouldn't that- Yeah ... be a fulfillment? Yeah. So I think for me, um, I wanna move forward in my life and my professional, professional endeavors, and I wanna make sure that both there's external success and internal success. And what I mean external success is like outwardly, like, you know, hitting, like, financial success and having, um, you know, feeling good about your i- image, but also [00:54:00] internally feeling good about who you are inside and making sure that you have good relationships with people.

Jason Yeah. And you know, when we say, like, at what cost, so what's the cost to achieve what you're describing?

Hayden To achieve, um, better relationships with people? Or-

Jason Yeah, like not only have a material success, right? But, like, in your life now that you're aiming for... or not, not now that, but, like, right now you're aiming for, uh, material achievement.

Jason Mm. Right? Like a, a, a goal- Mm ... to grow your business, but then you also want great relationships, a great personal life- Yeah ... and balance, right? So, like, by aiming for those, like, what has been the cost for you-

Hayden Mm ...

Jason to get those?

Hayden Well, I don't know if I ne- I don't even really have, um, very many external goals anymore.

Hayden I don't know if I see that as a cost necessarily, but I think a consequence of focusing on, like, making sure I have good relationships with people, making sure that I have good [00:55:00] connections with people is, like, maybe the consequence of that is, like, I don't have as many external check marks anymore.

Speaker 4 Mm.

Hayden Like, I don't... I really don't. I mean, do I wanna make more money? Yes. Do I wanna grow as a professional coach? Yes. But I don't have specific markers anymore- Yeah ... to define what that success is. And what's coming up for me also is, like, I do have a client who v- you know, very successful at what he does, and then h- you know, through our coaching, he's already very successful, um, externally, right?

Hayden But then, you know, with his personal life too, realizing He did have this goal of, like, becoming CFO of like a, a company, but then he's actually reevaluating that. He's like, "Why?" Hmm. Like, d- 'cause that would mean less time with family, less time with friends. He's like, "Do I even really want that?" Like, what, what is success?

Hayden Like-

Jason Yeah ...

Hayden so I think, I think that's... those are a lot of questions that come up in, in my coaching with people because, you know, they may [00:56:00] think that they wanna become CEO of a company, but then w- I wanna ask them, "But why?" Like-

Jason Yeah ...

Hayden what does that mean to you? Or what's the importance of that to you? Um, they realize that maybe they actually don't want that, right?

Hayden Or maybe it might just happen organically, but maybe it doesn't have to be something to strive for, right?

Jason Yeah. Yeah, and, and what else? Like, so that's one cost-

Hayden Yeah ...

Jason of like, well, less external goals.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Um, less, less, I guess, less focused on like a number- Yeah ... or some specific, line item-

Hayden Yeah

Jason in your checklist. Um, has there been any other costs for you?

Hayden Like, costs of focusing on a more, like, fulfill- fulfilling part of my work, right? Yeah. Is that what you mean, like the fulfillment part of my work?

Jason Yeah. Like anything... Like, I guess like the categories could be like, well, there's, there's, um, personal costs- Yeah

Jason there's relationship costs, um, there's energetic costs. [00:57:00] Um, like, I guess things that fall in that area for you.

Hayden Yeah. That's a really good question. I mean, I don't... If, if this shift in my life and business is focusing making sure that people have, like, good relationships with people and a good connection with people, if that's cost me potential clients, maybe.

Hayden I, I don't know. Sure. It could.

Jason It could.

Hayden You know, someone may not ch- look at my website, 'cause my website is pretty clear. It's like, yes, yes, we can have goals and want to achieve things- Yeah ... but it's all about the inner work. It's all about the being. And if that has cost me clients 'cause they're like, "Oh, I just wanna talk about, like, goals and I don't wanna reflect," maybe they've gone somewhere else.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden So, um, maybe it's cost me friendships where people don't value personal growth a- and reflection. Um-

Jason Hmm ...

Hayden maybe it has actually. It... But it's actually something that I... It's a really good question. I'm like... You know what, when it comes... Because I do see [00:58:00] focusing on- Having deeper connections with people, having meaningful conversations with people, and having meaningful relationships, I see that as a, as a, as a positive thing.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden But often... But with, with every... Like, there's yin and yang in everything, right? So even, like, focusing on something positive there could be a, a, a cost to... There is a cost to it. Like, everything- Yeah ... has a cost. So, but I, I can't really pinpoint exactly, like-

Jason Yeah, like if we were to take that for an example.

Jason Yeah. It's like, well, a deeper, more meaningful conversation, um, takes more time.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason So you'll have deeper but fewer of those conversations. Mm. But they'll be more rich.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Right? Like us having this conversation, you chose to, to spend your time to be here with us-

Hayden Mm ...

Jason of which I'm so grateful for. Um, but you could have been doing it, like, like you said, you could be following up with a one-on-one client.

Jason You could be doing another round of the float pod. Yeah. You know? Like, you could, you could be doing so [00:59:00] many things, but you chose to be here. And I, I guess this is, like, how it... That's also been showing up in my life, has been... Well, one of them in particular has been, um, sleep training with kids.

Hayden Mm.

Jason Because to do proper sleep training with kids in the way that I wanna do it right now, I won't...

Jason Like, my nights will be me waking up multiple times a night, at least for the next several months.

Speaker 3 Mm.

Jason Right? And for me, like, that's the cost. Like, if I want to do it the way I wanna do it, um, other people recommend different ways, um, there's a cost to it. Yeah. And I had to decide, like, okay, like, maybe I'll borrow that no regrets value, right?

Jason Yeah. Like, will I regret not having at least tried it this way to make it happen for my children? And it's like, yes. Yeah. Okay, then what's the cost? Well, the cost is- Mm ... not sleeping every, like, not, not sleeping all the way through the night. Waking up three to four times a night. Um, but then also, like, well, [01:00:00] I guess the other cost to that was, well, I need to meditate and center myself more every morning because I don't get consolidated- Yeah

Jason sleep. So that's, that's a, that's another cost that I have to do to kinda, like, offset-

Hayden Yeah ...

Jason some of those other pieces, you know?

Hayden Well, I think, um, w- another cost that just came to mind too is I probably, um, say no to more things that I feel are transactional, or I say- Mm ... m- no to more things where it's like it doesn't- feel enriching to me in some way.

Hayden Um

Jason Yeah. Like for example, like maybe you have a client that could be easy money for you- Mm ... because like you know exactly how to help them, but they're not aligned with your values of like the type of work you do- Mm ... and things like that. So you might have to say, you might say no to that because of, because of the misalignment.

Hayden Yeah. A- I actually, that's a really good example. Like, you know, I have said no to [01:01:00] clients where they wanna do like an Enneagram workshop where it's like just scratching the surface, and they don't really wanna like apply it- into deeper work in their life, and that's not really what the Enneagram's designed for.

Hayden Like, the Enneagram is really about having deeper reflection to, like, develop into a better version of yourself.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden So, like when I've, I've been approached as like, "Oh, can you just do like a 90-minute, like, workshop?" And I'm like, "Well, that's not really what it's for." It's not really, like, a tool where you just like talk about it over like, you know, a lunch and learn, and then like don't do anything with it.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Hayden So I think the cost of me wanting to have like deeper meaningful conversations is you bring up a point, probably it takes more time, but it probably- could, you know, filter out opportunities or people that don't wanna have a deeper conversation. But I'm okay with that too. Right. Um, and-

Jason So to you, it doesn't feel like a [01:02:00] cost-

Hayden Yeah, I think maybe

Hayden because you're like, "Well-" Yeah, I think that's the thing, is that, um, you know, just the, some of... I'm, I'm realizing in our conversation, like, you know, little word , little u- language is so important, right? Mm-hmm. 'Cause you said the word surrender. I'm like, eh, I don't know if I, don't re- I don't know if I resonate with the word surrender.

Hayden And I don't necessarily resonate with the, the, the word cost.

Jason Hmm.

Hayden But I think because what, it's because y- you s- I mean, it doesn't feel like a cost. But objectively- Yeah ... it is a cost 'cause a cost is, you know, it, you know, when you invest in, when you invest into one th- area, another area is less, so da, da, da.

Hayden And that is a cost. Yeah. But it doesn't feel like a cost 'cause, um, it's like in, I feel like more that I like to focus on the investment part. 'Cause if I invest in one area, then that impacts another area, right? But if it's another area that I don't, I choose not to invest in.

Jason Yeah. Yeah. And what we, we, we also didn't touch on is, like, to some people that might feel like a cost.

Jason Like, maybe to previous me-

Hayden Hmm ...

Jason it would've been way more costly to give- Yeah ... something up than to

[01:03:00] the current me, who is like, well, yeah, like I used to really value my sleep, and so I didn't even consider that as like- Mm ... something I would invest, you know? And now I'm, like, investing it and- Yeah ... like doing it with...

Jason And but I said, like, well, not only will I wake up at those times, I'm, I want to do it, like, I choose to do it with no frustration or anger.

Speaker 3 Hmm.

Jason Or how do, like- I might wake up and I'm grumpy- Yeah ... but I don't regret it because I've already made that previous choice- Yeah ... of like, okay, that's, that's just how- Yeah

Jason it's gonna be for this period of time, you know?

Hayden So would you say that you're surrendering to the process?

Jason Yeah.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Yeah. Like it's, it's, it's like, well, once you've kinda set that target- Yeah ... right, and you know the process is pretty sure, like it's gonna work, then, then like, like I, I think about it as I surrender the outcome now.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Once I know the process is the thing and I know the outcome I'm shooting for, then I [01:04:00] don't ask that every single time I do the thing that I'll get that outcome.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Right? Like, not every time that I make an offer am I gonna get a client.

Hayden Mm.

Jason But if I keep making offers, I will get a client, because if I make no offers, I'll get nothing.

Hayden Exactly.

Jason Right? It's like... A- and like the simple thing from a sales perspective, right? Um, so yeah, that, those are some, some powerful things. And like, like I, I found it interesting when you were talking about how, oh, well they don't feel like costs to you anymore, right? But maybe when your business, like if we zoom back to a time where your business wasn't that financially flush- Mm

Jason and you were looking at someone- Yes ... who was wanting- Yes ... this 90-minute thing, ready to pay you, and you're like, "Oh, but I need the money," then like if someone like that might be thinking, "Oh, that's costly to say no to that, that person."

Hayden Yes. I, I do... Yes, absolutely. I do always advise, you know, entrepreneurs and, and professional coaches too.

Hayden It's like when [01:05:00] you... If you're starting out and you need the, the money, it's okay to have clients where they may not be like a perfect 10, or they like hit every f- you know, requirement on your filter. That's totally okay because you need, you have the financial need- is, is important. Like, you know, like that, you know, like financial need in terms of like you literally need it to, you know, to help you, you know, uh, stay afloat financially.

Hayden But there does come a point where it's like financially you, you could be doing okay, and then at n- at that point though, you- it's not worth the, the headache to take on someone that you don't wanna work with.

Jason Mm.

Hayden But the, you know, it's like I guess it's the same version of like paying your dues in a way.

Hayden It's like everyone's gotta do some things that aren't in a perfect alignment, unless it's like a total violation of your morals and values. That's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about sometimes there's just people that it, you, you know, it's like, eh, there's some things that annoy them about you, you know?

Hayden And, [01:06:00] but I think it's okay at the beginning to not... It doesn't always have to be a full-body hell yes at the beginning because we do have bills that we need to pay. But I do think at each individual needs to ask themself, at what point, um, do I wanna be more in alignment with more full body hell yeses? Um, and something I do wanna say as well is it may not feel like a cost now, but a previous version of myself it, it probably would've felt more like a cost.

Hayden Because in the previous version of myself- missed opportunities seemed more like a bigger deal, or it felt like- Mm ... a missed opportunity, or it felt like, "Oh, oh, this is an opportunity that I need to take now." But that is probably more of a scarcity mindset.

Jason Mm.

Hayden Right? Um, and th- once again, this goes back to my experience as an actor as well, is that I r- one of my acting coaches did remind us that [01:07:00] auditions, you know, auditions are opportunities for work, right?

Hayden Auditions are like waves. There will be another one. Yeah. And I think that's stuck with me as I built my business as well, is in the moment you could feel like, "I want this opportunity. Like, I want this role." Yeah. "I want this huge client, and if I don't get it, there's not gonna be another chance." Then it's over.

Hayden It's over. Right, yeah. It's like this all or nothing scarcity mindset, and that's just not true. And I think that comes with experience and putting in those reps, and a faith, faith

Hayden that there will be another wave. You know? Like w- you know? Like faith that you miss this wave, know that there will be another one. And I think that is, um, a difference in what feels like a cost and what doesn't. Yeah.

Jason Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a pleasure, man-

Hayden Yeah ...

Jason uh, getting a chance to have this conversation.

Jason Yeah. Um, I, I learned a lot and- Mm ... and, uh, I've... I wish I

[01:08:00] had, like, a notepad taking these notes, but I'll be reviewing this later anyways. Yeah. So it's gonna be really nice to kind of write down a lot of the stuff- Yeah ... that we talked about. Um, but how about, um, for the viewers then? Yeah. If they want to find out more about you- Mm

Jason and what you're up to, maybe about, maybe your France retreat- Mm ... piqued their interest.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Uh, where could they find you?

Hayden The best place to find me is on my website, which is haydenlee.com. It's my name, H-A-Y-D-E-N-L-E-E.com. Right? So and you can find me, um, on Instagram, you know, Hayden Lee Coaching, um, on LinkedIn, you know, Hayden Lee.

Hayden So yeah, f- um, I'm pretty easy to find. And, um, and on my website you can see some of these things I'm putting out in the world, which is combining all of these things I love to do, including, like, um, my retreat in France. I'm also creating a murder mystery game. I don't know if you saw that. Like, I have an Enne- Oh, no

Hayden I have an Enneagram murder mystery game.

Speaker 4 Fascinating.

Hayden Actually where people sign up. And it's not just for coaches, it's for anyone [01:09:00] who views themself as a leader, who loves games and fun and personal growth and leadership and Enneagram. So that's a really exciting thing where I, once again, I'm, like, combining, like, n- all the nerdy parts of myself.

Hayden I love escape rooms. I love murder mystery. I love Enneagram. I love coaching. I love personal growth. Um, so I'm very excited for this, um, Enneagram murder mystery game which takes place, um, you know, at the end of next month. Um, and- Is

Jason it like... So, so it's like a event someone would come to?

Hayden Yeah, it's- And play the game and you- Yeah, people come.

Hayden It's at a castle in the Hollywood Hills.

Jason What?

Hayden Oh, that's cool. So it's like, you gotta check it out. Okay. It's actually really crazy. It's at this castle in, in the Hollywood Hills called Castle Ivar. It's not the Magic Castle. It's, like, this weird castle in the Hollywood Hills. Um, and my co-collaborator and I are, like, writing the game based on people's Enneagram types.

Hayden Oh. And it's like this, a murder takes place. People have to solve the mur- mystery. They learn about themselves. So there's... It's, so I... It's an example [01:10:00] of expanding what's possible, right? Yeah. Like, coaching is not just sitting in front of someone on Zoom. I mean, that's a part of it, but it's also getting out into the world.

Hayden It's, you know, having in-person experiences, having an immersive experience. Like, I think- Yeah ... we learn most about ourselves when you're, like, put in a situation, right? A, a live situation.

Jason Yeah.

Hayden So that's really fun, too. That's- So I think that's yet another example of, like, you know, asking the viewers to think about, like, what do you love to do, um, and how can you incorporate that into your work?

Hayden It can be anything, right? Anything. If you love... If you're passionate about something, it can be turned into a transformational experience.

Jason Yeah. Well, that's awesome.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason I didn't know about that, and that's-

Hayden Yeah, you gotta check it out. So

Jason cool. Yeah. Okay.

Hayden Yeah.

Jason Well, awesome. Well, yeah, thank you for tuning in- Yeah

Jason on The Living Question. It was really exciting to have you and have Hayden here-

Hayden Yeah ...

Jason uh, speak with us, and I hope you got some nuggets out of that.

Hayden Yay