The Cost of Trusting Your Gut with Chris Gray

Jason [00:00:00] All right. Welcome to The Living Question Podcast, where we bridge the gap between knowing and living. And here today we have Chris Gray, dear friend of mine, [00:00:10] uh, front row dad, master marketer, and, uh, recently s- super, like super stage speaker. Right? [00:00:20]

Chris [00:00:20] I'm trying. I'm trying.

Jason [00:00:22] Yeah. Yeah. And, and man, I, I've... It's been so cool to see you, like, step out into the space of like, [00:00:30] "Look, I'm doing this stuff," whereas before you were, like, much more, like, ninja about it, huh?

Chris [00:00:36] Yes.

Jason [00:00:38] That's cool. Well, [00:00:40] um, what I wanna get into is I'd love to just start with the first question, then we can kind of flow wherever we go.

Chris [00:00:47] Okay.

Jason [00:00:47] Um, which is, like, for [00:00:50] you, um, it's the living question, right? So when did you have a decision when logic wasn't enough to make the move?[00:01:00]

Chris [00:01:00] This is such a good and tough question, and it's, it's what's in focus 'cause I [00:01:10] am doing my best to get out of here and to get into here when it comes to making decisions, when it comes to being present, to be in here. [00:01:20] And so- Like

Jason [00:01:20] from your head to your heart?

Chris [00:01:22] From, from my head to my heart, to be in my body, to listen with my body, to let my gut, my chest, whatever's happening in here lead, to [00:01:30] be aligned with this, to be anchored with this- Mm-hmm

[00:01:32] and then operate from there. It's a whole other conversation. But from there, there are decisions to be made. There's been some [00:01:40] major stuff that's happened, which I would love to talk about, but it is way too recent. Mm-hmm. But one of the minor things that happened that was chaotic was in the fourth [00:01:50] quarter of 2025, me and my business partner were like, "We don't know if we have a business."

[00:01:56] Like- Mm ... this, this could be it. It, it could [00:02:00] be done. 'Cause we took a couple of blows which, and the, the challenging thing with those blows is these were things that it wasn't like, 'cause we were, it wasn't because we were performing bad or we did anything [00:02:10] wrong. These are things that were completely out of our control that impacted our business.

[00:02:14] Um, at least I'd say 80, 85% of what happened was completely out of our control. Mm. And so [00:02:20] to get to your question, We had to let go of some people, but then we also kept people [00:02:30] when it didn't make sense from a business perspective to keep them. And a lot of this could be like, "Hey, um, well, we just like this person," or such and [00:02:40] such and so on and so forth. But here's the thing, um, me and my, my business partner follow a set of values.

[00:02:46] We live a certain way. And with that, [00:02:50] like he has, you know, he has his views, I have my views, but we are, we are, we are aligned. And so to get to your, to get to answering your question, it was like, hey, when it gets to firing such and such, this makes [00:03:00] sense from a logical standpoint. When we look at what's happening, w- what can happen long term, When we look at this person, although it may not make [00:03:10] sense to keep them on paper or whatever, in my gut, I think keeping them is the right move, and let's at least give it [00:03:20] 30, 60 days to see if we can recover.

[00:03:22] it's an example of where I had to get out of here, and we had to tune in right here and, like, in this situation with this person, what feels [00:03:30] right?

[00:03:30] And that formula in the normal world is a process for disaster, especially in business, going off of your feelings. Like, this is, this is like a no-no [00:03:40] in business. Yeah. This is something you don't do and something we historically haven't done.

Jason [00:03:43] So if we take that, first we take, kind of give a little more clarity to that moment for the viewers, right?

[00:03:49] So what was it [00:03:50] like? Okay, revenue's dipping and, like, usually that position would be, like, the first to be cut.

Chris [00:03:59] Yes. Revenue's [00:04:00] dipping. We can cut this position. We could automate it. We could do this. May not be as good, but it might be 70%- Of course ... of what was, what was being done. Um, let's go do [00:04:10] that. And then we were like, "Nah."

[00:04:12] Like, this doesn't feel like the right move. And again, you're talking about two dudes who [00:04:20] aren't about all, we're not all about feelings, especially in business. Like that's a horrible thing. Yeah. Like, "Oh, I'm gonna..." No, you don't-

Jason [00:04:25] Yeah, like they tell you, like you never hire based on how much you like somebody or-

Chris [00:04:28] And you don't, and you don't

[00:04:29] [00:04:30] whatever,

Jason [00:04:30] right?

Chris [00:04:30] Yeah. And- Yeah ... and so there's, and there's times for that. There's times where it's hard and fast and you stick to these business rules, and there's times where it's okay, this is a gut call. [00:04:40] This is a- Mm-hmm ... feeling call. Yeah. But here's the thing, Jason. I felt more confident in that gut feeling and making, in that gut call because this, [00:04:50] this recent, this last three, four months are the most aligned I've been with what's happening here.

Jason [00:04:55] Mm.

Chris [00:04:55] Prior, when I'm out of alignment and I feel something in my gut, I can't trust that [00:05:00] 'cause my mind's over here, this thing's over here, not fully anywhere. They're not, they're not aligned. But I'm not saying, like so far things have worked out. Who knows what happens three or four months from now, [00:05:10] but so far things have worked out.

Jason [00:05:12] Mm.

Chris [00:05:12] And I think, again, it started with me being aligned before I could then make a gut call.

Jason [00:05:17] I see. Yeah. So it's kind of like your [00:05:20] channels are open and so that you can hear the gut

Chris [00:05:22] calls. Yes. Yes.

Jason [00:05:25] Makes sense. And, um, before we dip, 'cause I have so many [00:05:30] questions just from what we just talked about, um, but in making that call, what, did you have to like argue with your [00:05:40] business partner and be like, "No, we need to keep him," or was he also...

[00:05:43] 'Cause I, I, I know your business partner, and he, he's pretty, he's pretty deep-

Chris [00:05:47] Yes. Yes ...

Jason [00:05:48] himself, [00:05:50] right? So, so was it, did, did you have to fight for that gut feeling or were you both like, "All right, yeah," like I both, like you both feel that?

Chris [00:05:57] We both ended up feeling it.

Jason [00:05:59] Okay. And [00:06:00] is that just additional confirmation then?

Chris [00:06:02] Oh, absolutely. '

Jason [00:06:03] Cause what if he was like, "My gut says no"?

Chris [00:06:06] Then that would've been a challenge, right? 'Cause then we have to kind of go with- Mm-hmm ... who has the [00:06:10] strongest feeling on that one, and that's usually, you know, okay, we would go with the strongest feeling.

Jason [00:06:15] Mm.

Chris [00:06:16] Um, but we were aligned on it and- [00:06:20] Man, it's something about going through hard things with people that, um, brings you together.

[00:06:24] You see this in, um, the military for extreme examples, uh, you know, policemen. [00:06:30] Um, even with us as men in this room, we're, we, we, we became friends through doing work that most men won't do.

Jason [00:06:36] Mm-hmm.

Chris [00:06:37] So I think sometimes when you are aligned with [00:06:40] somebody and you're in something, you're kind of in the bunker together, it's a little easier to kind of get on the...

[00:06:45] Don't... It's not always easy, but it's easier. We kind of start to have a little mastermind, one mind, and [00:06:50] we just ended up feeling the same way. We end up feeling the same way about a bunch of things.

Jason [00:06:53] Mm-hmm.

Chris [00:06:53] Um, for good or bad, we end up being aligned.

Jason [00:06:56] Yeah.

Chris [00:06:56] Yeah.

Jason [00:06:57] Yeah. Makes sense. So [00:07:00] then what was the cost of keeping that person instead of doing what you would've done, like from a logical business, [00:07:10] business formula?

Chris [00:07:11] Um, the co- We had... I had to get comfortable with being uncomfortable because you're carrying an expense [00:07:20] that, um... It's an expense. It's an extra one, and so it's like, okay, to get rid of that person knows we know that that expense is not there anymore. Um, and we can [00:07:30] carry this for whatever. We kind of, we can plan out financially.

[00:07:32] When you keep them, and say you get hit with another blow, it could be even more detrimental. Mm-hmm. And so to answer your question, the cost was, and the [00:07:40] opportunity there was, this is a chance, um, for us to be comfortable with the unknown, to not know, [00:07:50] to have faith.

Jason [00:07:51] Yeah.

Chris [00:07:52] That was the cost, and it was an opportunity at the same time, and it was...

[00:07:56] It's an excellent exercise.

Jason [00:07:58] Yeah. Yeah. [00:08:00] And so that was, I mean, Q4 was barely a month ago-

Chris [00:08:03] Man, all this stuff, man- Or two months ... the, the last- Yeah ... the last three or four months have been crazy, Jason, been crazy.

Jason [00:08:09] Yeah. [00:08:10] Yeah. So let's, let's keep rolling with that, 'cause what came up with, for me, was right now you're the most aligned, right?

[00:08:17] Like, so what, what [00:08:20] brought you to like... What made you want to get aligned in the first place?[00:08:30]

Chris [00:08:30] This has been a journey, man. Um, to get here, to this awareness thing, this mindfulness thing, to be in touch with God, um, this has been a long [00:08:40] journey and- What got me here, I... It's, it became like a need. Like, [00:08:50] if I want peace and joy, um, this is the path that I've identified. If I want to love... [00:09:00] Somebody said something about joy, joy being the most vulnerable emot-e- emotion of all, right?

Jason [00:09:06] Mm.

Chris [00:09:06] Being a very vulnerable emotion, and I thought about that. [00:09:10] And it is for me because to have joy, like it's easy to be angry, it's easy to, um, be reserved. It's easy to [00:09:20] just, you know, it's easy to be an introvert, um, in some cases. To be joyful, to actually express that, I have to bring armor down.

Jason [00:09:29] Mm.

Chris [00:09:29] I [00:09:30] have to bring armor down.

[00:09:30] I'm vulnerable now 'cause I'm in, I'm in a happy state, and to be vulnerable to me signals weakness. And so, but it feels so good. It feels so peaceful. Well, how do you get there? [00:09:40] I don't know. And through this, this work I've done, I've noticed that I feel the most peace with life, with everything around me when I [00:09:50] When I am out of here and I'm in here and these things are integrated and this thing's not going chaotic, I'm feeling it.

[00:09:57] I'm anchored to what's, I'm anchored to what's happening in here, [00:10:00] and then I'm just kind of riding this surfboard, riding this wave of life.

Jason [00:10:04] Yeah. And for the listeners who are only on audio, can you give them some reference points?

Chris [00:10:08] Oh, yeah. Sorry, I didn't even think about [00:10:10] that. Yeah. So being out of my head and into my body.

[00:10:13] Mm-hmm. And at least, like, if a stimulus happens, I'm noticing what's happening in my body before [00:10:20] I'm opening my mouth or before I'm thinking about it. That's the biggest thing. Stimulus happens, okay, what am I feeling in my body? What's going on? Let me just feel this. [00:10:30] Okay. It's almost like you, it's almost like you're, you go...

[00:10:33] You know, I used to play basketball or do jujitsu, whatever. It's like you get, you go from being in the game to being a coach, and now you're [00:10:40] watching it. And when I do that, and for me, it's, it's getting into my body and then watching what's happening. I'm like, "Oh, you feel this, but that's because of that.

[00:10:48] All right, this is probably [00:10:50] the clearest decision here to do even though you don't like it. Go do that." It's almost like I'm coaching myself. I'm zoomed out of it.

Jason [00:10:55] Mm.

Chris [00:10:55] Does that make sense?

Jason [00:10:57] So is it, is it like you've [00:11:00] disconnected from, like... It, it sounds to me like you've, you've disconnected from that immediate, like, the [00:11:10] immediate response from, of like maybe ordinarily...

[00:11:16] I don't know. Like, like the example that comes to mind for me is, okay, like let's say [00:11:20] I'm, I'm driving and then sudden- someone s- suddenly comes in and like cuts me off or almost hits me. And like, I could be like just [00:11:30] really pissed the rest of the time, right? I could yell at them. I could have road rage.

[00:11:35] Um, or I could also like take that moment [00:11:40] and, and change how I react in that moment Is that kind of the-

Chris [00:11:46] Yes, that's exactly what it is. It's, you know, [00:11:50] the stimulus happens. What's happening is what's happening. What we, we can't control that. You can't control the guy cutting you off, whatever, cutting you off.

[00:11:55] But what we can control is the response to it, and this is very cliche stuff. Like, this is stuff that [00:12:00] people, um, might be most people in our, in our world would, who know or would know. But to actually practice it, to make it a, a, [00:12:10] a default way to go is much harder than it seems. To pause before you, you react, to know that I have a choice in the situation.

[00:12:17] Despite what's happening inside, [00:12:20] I have a choice on how I react and what I do. Um- Yeah ... that's, that's hard to do, and I don't always do it, but when I do it, it is relieving. It's peaceful.

Jason [00:12:29] [00:12:30] Mm. Mm. And so let, let's take a moment where you don't do it, right? Um, can you walk us through, like, a moment like that?

Chris [00:12:38] My [00:12:40] daughter here recently, she, she did something, and I was frustrated with her, her lack of speed. She was doing something, but she was not going fast enough, right? So I'm like, "Jewel," like, "come on, let's go," [00:12:50] right? Automatic, like, jumping on her, and I- Mm

[00:12:52] and I do that, I do that a lot. Like something like that where I'm just jumping on her, jumping on her.

Jason [00:12:55] Mm.

Chris [00:12:56] And, um, [00:13:00] what I've noticed, and it, it can go on. It can go on and on. A lot of things where I'm like, "Man, I acted unconsciously in that situation." Mm. My response to my wife, like, um, [00:13:10] what we were, we were talking about something with-

Jason [00:13:12] Like, when you catch it, like let's say with Jewel, right?

[00:13:14] Yeah. Like, you catch that Do you repair in that moment when you catch it? Like, can you [00:13:20] also do a repair?

Chris [00:13:21] I usually, I don't... And so in these ca- in these cases where I'm unconscious and I usually catch it, if I catch it, I catch it sometime later.

Jason [00:13:29] [00:13:30] Mm.

Chris [00:13:30] Which is still a win. Correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah For me, the fact that I, even if it's two days later or an hour later or a week later, at least I noticed back in that moment that I was unconsciousness or unconscious.

[00:13:39] And if [00:13:40] there is a need for repair, I will repair. Mm. Um, I don't go apologizing to her like 24/7, but all, it'd be a lot of apologizing. It would be. You know, I, [00:13:50] I have a lot of opportunity. Mm. But when I do catch something, like recently our, I have to go talk to her about this, this situation. My, um, the, my, my [00:14:00] wife's grandma, which is my grandma now, is we felt like she was passing away this past weekend.

Jason [00:14:04] Mm.

Chris [00:14:05] Um, and I was sick with the flu, and so we had that, we had the, [00:14:10] the, the, the trauma of my grandma pa- possibly passing away. I'm sick with the flu. Jewel needs to go to a soccer game. Big decisions need to be made, and I don't have the mental [00:14:20] capacity or whatever. And, and I'm trying to help my wife think through it when I can barely think.

[00:14:24] I'm sick and a bunch of, and some heavy stuff is happening, and I reacted to something that wasn't the best way to react. I basically [00:14:30] told my wife that, like, "Your decision, your feelings are only thing, only thing that matters right now." And in saying that, I basically said my daughter's decisions or her feelings don't matter.

[00:14:37] "So Jenny, your feelings right now, 'cause it's your grandma [00:14:40] dying, it's the only thing that matters." And in saying that, I'm basically telling d- my daughter, Jewel, her feelings don't matter.

Jason [00:14:45] Mm.

Chris [00:14:45] That's, that's, that's what I did. I have to go back- Mm ... and repair that for a lot [00:14:50] of reasons.

Jason [00:14:50] Mm.

Chris [00:14:51] That's an example

Jason [00:14:52] of-

Chris [00:14:53] Mm

[00:14:53] w- what I'm talking about.

Jason [00:14:55] Yeah. Yeah. And like, do you just, like, does it come to mind [00:15:00] and you're just like, "Oh," and, and you just will just note it down or keep it and as you, like, continue on your work?

Chris [00:15:07] Yeah, it, it comes to mind- Yeah ... man. It, it's like... [00:15:10] And I think too, once again, if I wasn't aligned, they wouldn't come.

[00:15:14] Like, these thoughts, like I don't control the thoughts. Like, I don't control the, the blood flowing through [00:15:20] my body or my heart beating, or I don't control... Like, I don't make myself. These things are happening. There is They're coming from somewhere. I hit the mic. They're coming from [00:15:30] somewhere, right? Mm-hmm.

[00:15:30] And the better aligned I am to whatever the source is, whatever you wanna call it, to me it's God, but the better I'm aligned with it, the more open I [00:15:40] am to receiving the messages. And so I've noticed that, again, when I become better aligned, the more I will start catching things, even if it happened a week back, an hour ago, or whatever.[00:15:50]

Jason [00:15:50] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so g- c- tell them like, um, can you share like one of your alignment practices just so they get a, a sense of what helps you get into alignment?

Chris [00:15:59] [00:16:00] Right now I'm talking to you, and we're talking, we're having a conversation.

Jason [00:16:02] Yeah.

Chris [00:16:02] But I can feel my body right now. I can feel what's... Some- there's something here, and it's not-

Jason [00:16:08] In your chest here?

Chris [00:16:09] Like, [00:16:10] yeah, like a line. There's a line going on. Like, I feel like, I feel like a, a line, quite literally. It's not bad. There's no, there's no, it's not anxiety. It's not anger. It's not... [00:16:20] But I just, I, I'm in my body right now.

Jason [00:16:22] Mm-hmm.

Chris [00:16:22] And when I have that anchor, that anchor of being in the body, and I'm, I'm feeling that, where am I not?

[00:16:29] I'm not [00:16:30] up here. Earlier I was thinking like, "Oh man, I gotta do a lunch," and I have, I'm overbooked and I double-booked. And before we kind of, we got into this podcast, I was thinking about that, and I'm coming to the, I'm coming into this [00:16:40] podcast like, "Man, I gotta fix that," blah, blah, blah. And it's going in my head.

[00:16:43] And three years ago, when you and I are sitting here, it would still be coming up. It would still be coming up. Mm. You know? But I'm [00:16:50] here with you. Yeah.

Jason [00:16:51] Yeah.

Chris [00:16:52] And I'm out of here.

Jason [00:16:53] Yeah.

Chris [00:16:53] And that's my alignment thing. It's just, that's one of the many things where just, but for me, it's just feeling my body in the [00:17:00] moment.

Jason [00:17:00] Mm. So, so, like, that could be, um, I, I mean, I've heard of one method that's similar to that called body mapping.

Chris [00:17:07] Mm.

Jason [00:17:07] Which is basically like, you, you actually focus on [00:17:10] different parts of your body. Um, and sometimes you could like, if you touch your hands and you create sensation, or you just notice the feel of your clothes on your shoulders, on [00:17:20] your chest, like, it, it brings you back in.

Chris [00:17:23] Mm-hmm.

Jason [00:17:23] Instead of like, instead of thinking about other things, like thinking about [00:17:30] things that are happening in the future, things that are happening in the past, and that keeps us out of that, the now moment.

Chris [00:17:36] Right? That makes sense.

Jason [00:17:38] Yeah. I

Chris [00:17:39] like that [00:17:40] one.

Jason [00:17:40] Okay. Well, that's awesome. Like, I, I, um, and I have so many questions, but

[00:17:45] the, the one I had to ask you, because the last time we talked [00:17:50] Like, you were, we, we wa- we talked a lot about, like, our different spiritual journeys and how you were studying things. [00:18:00] And like, you're a, you're a pretty hardcore AI user, um, to the point where I remember you were like, "Yeah, and I uploaded, like, the Bhagava- Bhagavad Gita and, [00:18:10] like, the Bible and all of these things into, like, NotebookLM, and then I'm, like, having a conversation with it and kinda going there."

[00:18:17] So I, I wonder how, like, [00:18:20] AI has played into your journey of deepening your own spiritual seeking.

Chris [00:18:26] Oh man, that's a great question. Um, it's a really good question. So [00:18:30] what Jason's talking about is I read the Gita. That was my mo- most read book in the, in 2024, and then, um, in 2025 I got back into reading the Bible.

[00:18:38] What, what happens is I build these [00:18:40] agents, um, both in, for this one it's GPT and Claude, but I usually build them in GPT, Claude, and Gemini. But I build these agents and they, they're built on certain principles I already [00:18:50] have, um, certain spiritual principles. Some of them, a lot of Eckhart Tolle- Mm ... type stuff going on there or whatever.

Jason [00:18:56] Mm-hmm.

Chris [00:18:56] Um, and I, Richard Rohr, the way they view the Bible [00:19:00] and the stories there align with how I view it, and so I build these agents to kind of have that lens. I will read a chapter on my book in the morning on my little Bible app. I will copy [00:19:10] it and I will plug it into that, that agent and say, "This is the chapter I read.

[00:19:13] Through the lens of which I view Christianity, help me break it down." Um, and then I'll just use it. It's almost like a [00:19:20] spiritual guide. It'll, it'll walk me through some things, some analogies, some allegories, things like that, things that I would've missed any historical context.

Jason [00:19:26] Mm.

Chris [00:19:27] But instead of having to go to a [00:19:30] church or rely on somebody to help me give, give me their view of it, I can plug this into multiple agents, see the thread of what these different agents say.

[00:19:39] 'Cause just because [00:19:40] GPT or Claude or, or Gemini tell me something, something doesn't, it doesn't mean I believe it. I like to use all three, see the commonalities, then come to my own conclusion.

Jason [00:19:48] Mm.

Chris [00:19:48] So in my spiritual [00:19:50] journey... So that's just for the religious one, I also built a spiritual guide, um, as if I was hiring a coach that would help coach me through feelings and processing and [00:20:00] awareness and mindfulness, and that thing is amazing. Like, it has been amazing. Like, one of the biggest things I found, I was, um- What I've learned, Jason, is that [00:20:10] I have this, this need to control, to have a framework, a process.

[00:20:17] I'm gonna give you a quick story. I know I'm talking a lot, but let me-

Jason [00:20:19] [00:20:20] No.

Chris [00:20:20] Yeah.

Jason [00:20:20] Keep going, man.

Chris [00:20:21] I, I read a book called The Surrender Experiment.

Jason [00:20:24] Ah.

Chris [00:20:24] Great book, right?

Jason [00:20:25] Great book.

Chris [00:20:26] Great book.

Jason [00:20:26] Yeah.

Chris [00:20:27] Long story short, without going into all the details- Is that

Jason [00:20:29] Michael Singer?

Chris [00:20:29] Michael [00:20:30] Singer, yeah. Yeah. Great, great book.

Jason [00:20:31] Yeah.

Chris [00:20:31] But what I did was I read that book- Ooh ... and I'm like, "Bro, whoa, okay." I took his thing and I made it into a framework, and I was like, "Hey, I'm [00:20:40] going to-" You would. Yeah, exactly. I took it, and I made it a framework, and I'm like- Mm-hmm ... "This is how I'm gonna surrender. I got this framework," or whatever.

Jason [00:20:47] Yeah.

Chris [00:20:48] What the guide eventually helped me [00:20:50] discover, without go- I'm not gonna go through the entire story, is that, like, me making surrender into a framework was my ego. Like, it's another sneaky way of the ego coming [00:21:00] in and trying to control.

Jason [00:21:01] Mm.

Chris [00:21:02] It's, it's the exact opposite of surrender. To, to make it a framework is the exact opposite of the whole concept.

[00:21:09] Mm, mm. [00:21:10] Surrender is what happens when I stop making frameworks and stop making up practices. Surrender is what happens when there's nothing. Again, the bottom falls out. There's no certainty. It's just- Mm ... [00:21:20] this is what is, and that's that, and I don't need to do anything. And that not having to do anything is scary because I just wanna do.

[00:21:27] Like, let me- Yeah. How do I do? How do I control?

Jason [00:21:28] Yeah. Yeah.

Chris [00:21:29] So, [00:21:30] and my spiritual guide and my agent helped me come to this discovery.

Jason [00:21:33] Oh. And so how did that change the way you approach life now?

Chris [00:21:39] [00:21:40] It just comes full circle with that decision at the very be- beginning I had to make where we, we, we kept people that we probably should've, um, got- gotten rid of.

[00:21:49] It's [00:21:50] like, no, this one feels right, and there's uncertainty there. There's uncertainty there, and I'm comfortable with it. In the same way where to s- the whole surrender experiment to remove a [00:22:00] framework to just surrender to something and just to be and then go from there, there's no framework. There's no certainty.

[00:22:06] So there's, it's being comfortable with the discomfort [00:22:10] of no certainty.

Jason [00:22:12] Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I was, I was reflecting on, um, like what is a [00:22:20] faith move versus like what is just a good move. And I've, I've always been the type where I like to strategize, you know. So it's always [00:22:30] like, okay, if we wanna make X amount of money, like great, I can come up with all types of ways to make that amount of money, and I can come up...

[00:22:38] They can be three steps, they [00:22:40] can be 10 steps, they can be 100 steps, and like I, I can figure out exactly how to do it, right? And yet that's not a faith move when it's something [00:22:50] that you know you can do, and you also have the exact way of doing it, right? And, and I think like there's, there's such an importance there because for some people, the problem is not [00:23:00] that they know what to do.

[00:23:01] The problem is they might be scared of achieving the thing, right? Like they're, they're-

Chris [00:23:07] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason [00:23:07] Right? Like so if, if you make it, if, [00:23:10] if you, um, you know, some business coaches or some business strategists, like they might take it and say, "Oh, you wanna go there? Great." I've seen, like I've worked with tons of people who did that.

[00:23:18] "So here you go. Boom, [00:23:20] boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Then you're gonna be there." And then the person does nothing, right? And it wasn't because they didn't know what to do, but there was something holding them [00:23:30] back in the achievement of that, that would, that like made them stop, right? And it could be a fear of the success.

[00:23:38] It could be like, well, [00:23:40] what would happen after that? Uh, it could also be like maybe in that process you have to be more public, more seen, and you're scared of that.

Chris [00:23:48] Mm-hmm.

Jason [00:23:49] Right? [00:23:50] But then the flip side is what happens when you have a, when you feel a nudge to do something and you have no fricking idea how it's gonna happen Right?

[00:23:59] [00:24:00] Like the, the smaller example of, well, we're gonna keep this person even though we don't see a lot of pipeline yet. We don't- we're not sure where the revenue is g- the additional revenue is [00:24:10] gonna come from. We know they do great work. We know the quality of all of that. Um, and my gut says to keep them. And yet, like, you [00:24:20] know, we're gonna, you're gonna do what you're gonna do.

[00:24:21] You're, you're gonna go sell. You're gonna go speak with prospects. You're s- you're gonna still fill that pipeline, right? But, like, there's ... [00:24:30] When, when that pipeline is blank though, you're s- you're kind of like, okay, like I ... That's how I interpret, like, the faith move now. 'Cause in- instead of like, [00:24:40] okay, like, I- I

[00:24:42] W- let me ask you. Would it have been different if you had like maybe 10 prospects to call earlier? Oh,

Chris [00:24:46] absolutely. Yeah.

Jason [00:24:47] Right? You're like, oh, and, and you know your numbers, you knew your [00:24:50] conversions, and you're like, "Okay. Well, with 10 prospects, like, yeah, we can cover that." Th- then, like, the gut doesn't even matter.

[00:24:56] It's like, well- Yeah ... you're just gonna keep

Chris [00:24:59] them. 'Cause we have more [00:25:00] certainty at that point, or at least the illusion of certainty.

Jason [00:25:03] Yeah. And so what tends to happen of ... I, I wanna, I wanna, um, double tap that [00:25:10] real quick- Yeah ... because what tends to happen after a faith move is that s- some certainty starts to arrive.

[00:25:15] Um, did that happen for you guys when you made that move? [00:25:20]

Chris [00:25:20] No. Um, I was, I was, I was living in fear at that point, man. Mm. Like, um, 'cause it was chaotic. It was scary, you know? [00:25:30] There was this juxtaposition of, of, you know, fear and, and, and peace. Um- Somebody [00:25:40] said to me recently, which has always stuck with me, there's this, this phrase, it's a biblical thing about if you want the peace that comes beyond understanding, [00:25:50] right?

[00:25:50] This, you can determine... You could, you could figure out what peace beyond understanding means for anybody. But if you want peace that becomes, or you want the peace that goes beyond understanding, [00:26:00] then you have to forfeit your right to understand. So if my gut tells me this is a move and I feel okay with it, then that's that.[00:26:10]

[00:26:10] And a- any, any subsequent processing for me sometimes works the opposite way. Mm. It's like, "I'm trying to... Was that the right decision?" Da, da, da, boo.

Jason [00:26:19] Yeah.

Chris [00:26:19] You [00:26:20] know what, man? This is where I'm at. This is the decision I made, and I don't need to understand it.

Jason [00:26:25] Mm.

Chris [00:26:27] Not yet, at least.

Jason [00:26:29] Yeah. [00:26:30]

Chris [00:26:31] That's it

Jason [00:26:32] Yeah. And I, I think that's a perfect definition of a faith move.

[00:26:35] Yeah. Um, 'cause I've, I've done the opposite a lot of times. Like, well, I'll ma- I'll make a [00:26:40] faith move and then I'll be like, "Okay, like, let's ha- I need to figure out how to make this work." And it's a lot more stress than it's worth.

Chris [00:26:47] Yeah, yeah. It's-

Jason [00:26:48] Yeah ...

Chris [00:26:48] a lot of stress.

[00:26:49] [00:26:50] And for the, the agent side, as you were, as you were developing that, like, how has this showed up in your work? [00:27:00] 'Cause, you know, you guys, you do marketing, uh, targeted for home service businesses, right?

Chris [00:27:05] Yeah. Yeah.

Jason [00:27:06] Yeah. Like, so, so has the spiritual [00:27:10] side of you, um, which is, like, so deep, right? Like, how has that shown up in, like, the work that you do with your clients?

Chris [00:27:17] Man, that's a really good question, Jason. They all... [00:27:20] I think a lot, like anything in life, our, our guy Hector's recording this- Mm ... um, and he does jujitsu. And, um, I think that [00:27:30] my... What, what he would get, and p- like, my whole point of this is that-

Jason [00:27:35] I can get it too ...

Chris [00:27:35] when you... Yeah, sorry. Sorry. I'm sorry. My whole point of it, sometimes I make an [00:27:40] analogy that might not land, but- We clip

[00:27:41] my whole point of it is I get better at things when I see the, how they play into my life in general. So jujitsu is something you do on the mats, but the principles play in your life [00:27:50] in general.

Jason [00:27:51] Mm.

Chris [00:27:51] There's marketing principles that you could just apply to marketing, but these principles could be used as a husband, a father, a friend, or whatever.

[00:27:57] And so the spiritual stuff, [00:28:00] like, it, um- It spaghettis into my life in general, the principles that I get from that spaghetti into my life in general. And so [00:28:10] to answer your question, how it typically plays a role is let's look at Google right now, right? Google, the way that search is working out, this is, this is not a [00:28:20] marketing podcast, but the way search is now is gonna be vastly different and it's, are, it's like really changing, especially for local.

[00:28:26] Like really changing and there's chaos right now, and the sky could be falling [00:28:30] for some businesses not getting leads like they used to, and they're like, they're wondering why not and blah, blah, blah, and do I need to do this, this and that. And I think that had it not been, if it's not [00:28:40] for alignment or trusting my gut, trying to do my best to go with my gut and skate to where the puck is going and figure it out, if there wasn't that piece, I [00:28:50] wouldn't be able then to deliver confidence to my clients.

[00:28:53] At the end of the day, they hire me for conf- for confidence. That's what they, that's what I'm really selling at the end of the [00:29:00] day is confidence. Mm. That's not something I could just fake or whatever. Like I- And so for me to get that con- They, they're relying me on the, they rely on us as the expert, um, and I'm [00:29:10] an expert in something that's ever-changing.

[00:29:11] Like I don't know Google, I don't work at Google. I, I'm making my like ... But you know what? This is, I'm aligned here. I know my [00:29:20] craft. This is what I feel, and this is where we're going based on that. And that's that. There's no questioning it. There's no, there's no posturing. There's no-

Jason [00:29:28] Yeah ...

Chris [00:29:28] faking it till you make it.

[00:29:29] This is [00:29:30] it. Yeah. And once they encounter that confidence or feel it, then they can feel more at peace, even though we both don't know what the hell's going on ultimately.

Jason [00:29:39] Hmm. [00:29:40] And so is it like may- maybe viewers might be hearing that and be like, "Then isn't it just like the blind leading the blind?"

Chris [00:29:49] It could be.[00:29:50]

[00:29:50] It could be the blind leading the blind, but- I don't feel that way because if, again, this is going back to feeling, this is, [00:30:00] this feels right. Like I've done my studying- Mm-hmm ... the logical part. There's, there's logic. Mm-hmm. This is business, right? So there's a logical part. I've done my studying.

Jason [00:30:07] Yeah.

Chris [00:30:08] I know what this is for [00:30:10] Google.

[00:30:10] This is where they're going. This is where the whole market is going. This is what I would do if I were them. Okay, so then this is how we're gonna get ahead of it.

Jason [00:30:18] Yeah.

Chris [00:30:19] And it's [00:30:20] worked out even before I was more aligned, and so now I feel more confident that's, that I'm aligned. But this is the one thing I learned about marketing.

[00:30:29] Same [00:30:30] thing with women. I know marketing because I understand that I'll never understand marketing. Same thing with women. I know women 'cause I know that I will never understand women. So-

Jason [00:30:37] Yeah ...

Chris [00:30:38] I could, it could all go [00:30:40] left, but I've historically called it, and so I feel a confidence here, here even though I don't know what's happening.

Jason [00:30:46] Yeah. Yeah, and it's like what I'm hearing from you is a willingness to [00:30:50] be wrong.

Chris [00:30:50] Yes.

Jason [00:30:51] Like you've done your research, you've done all the study, and you've like mapped it out and said, "Well, based on what I've learned, my gut and my [00:31:00] knowledge, this is the way." And so- But right, like we don't know what's all happening underneath [00:31:10]

Chris [00:31:10] It could, it could go wrong or it could go, it could go left, and if it does, okay, then I adapt.

[00:31:13] I own it, I adapt, and I adjust, but I don't, I don't re- I wouldn't, I don't regret, in this [00:31:20] specific case, I don't regret this decision because the call felt right.

Jason [00:31:24] Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think like being able to pass that, like I, [00:31:30] what I'm feeling is like this alignment that you have, it just makes it easier to deliver that message.

[00:31:37] 'Cause if you didn't have the alignment, but you still did [00:31:40] all the research, you still did all the skate where the puck is going stuff, and then you came to them and you're like, "Well, you know, like I'm not sure which way it'll go, but [00:31:50] I'm pretty sure it's gonna be over here and we're, we're gonna have to play it out.

[00:31:53] Let's go see." Versus this, versus a more confident approach of like, like [00:32:00] being able to share that with peace.

Chris [00:32:01] Yes.

Jason [00:32:03] Right? And you can still say like, "It might go the other way," but, but, uh, but like the, I, I think [00:32:10] the tone makes such a huge difference.

Chris [00:32:11] You're hit- you're hitting on something huge here. I was talking to my wife yesterday about a decision she's making and it was...

[00:32:16] I was talking to her about really talking to myself, where [00:32:20] the, the state in which the decision is made for me often impacts the [00:32:30] quality of the action.

Jason [00:32:31] Mm.

Chris [00:32:31] And so in this, look at this example, if I was just in my head and I'm all anxious and I'm like, I'm doing the same [00:32:40] logical work, same all the logical work, but I'm just in my head and I'm anxious and I, and I tell the client from a state of anxiety the quality of the actions, you know, even if I'm right, [00:32:50] it's just gonna be this, even the, the vibe they pick up from me, all of it, the quality of the actions are not gonna be as good-

Jason [00:32:58] Mm

Chris [00:32:58] uh, for me, not [00:33:00] as clear and clean as if the state is, and in this case it was peace. Like this is what I feel peace, I feel aligned here. This stuff makes [00:33:10] sense. I don't know, but I feel peaceful. Now I deliver the same thing, but it comes from a state of peace. The quality of that action much higher, the vibe is much higher than the state of anxiety.[00:33:20]

Jason [00:33:20] Yeah.

Chris [00:33:20] So-

Jason [00:33:21] Yeah ...

Chris [00:33:21] that's something I'm learning.

Jason [00:33:23] Yeah. That's like the power of transmission, right?

Chris [00:33:25] Yeah. Yeah.

Jason [00:33:26] Yeah.

Chris [00:33:26] Yes.

Jason [00:33:27] Awesome. I don't... Oh, oh, [00:33:30] so this is a fun opposing question, which is, um, where did leading from your head protect you?

Chris [00:33:39] Oh, [00:33:40] gosh. I mean, you, you know, I learned that as a kid, you know, hypervigilance.

Jason [00:33:44] Mm.

Chris [00:33:44] You, you- Mm ... uh, this is not safe. I need to take care of [00:33:50] myself. Um, oh, y- I, I think as a... It all, it helped me when I was younger with protection at the end of the [00:34:00] day because if something was happening emotionally or I wasn't getting something or these feelings were too big, um, getting in my head is a way to get out of those [00:34:10] because this is- Mm

[00:34:10] too much to feel. This is, this is not safe. This, this is you're hurt. You're whatever it is. Let's get out of there. Get in your head, and then while you're in your head, [00:34:20] you're, you're examining everything. You're questioning everything. Let me get ahead of this so that if I do this, I can avoid getting hurt.

[00:34:26] Uh, blah, blah, blah. Like you're doing everything. You... It's all a [00:34:30] protection mechanism. It's all protection. So getting into my head, for me, for as a kid, and then you into, you, you kinda carry a, a graduated version of these behaviors into [00:34:40] adulthood. It was all about protection. Stay up here.

Jason [00:34:43] Mm.

Chris [00:34:43] You don't have to feel anything.

[00:34:44] You don't have to worry about anything. If you can't, if you're tired of being in your mind, go get on your phone. Go watch a show. Go [00:34:50] play video games. Do anything but go in.

Jason [00:34:53] Mm. Yeah, and it sounds like a lot of the, the work is more of like an unraveling of all of that.

Chris [00:34:59] [00:35:00] 1,000%.

Jason [00:35:01] Yeah, 'cause now that we're adults, like there's a lot more that we can handle, or supposedly.

Chris [00:35:07] Yeah,

Jason [00:35:07] yeah, yeah. Yeah. [00:35:10] Uh, so, so like have you been surprised by how much you can hold now?

Chris [00:35:17] Yes. I, [00:35:20] I'm more capable than I thought. Um, and I'm surprised at the capacity that we all have. Like, whatever's in here, we- there's, there's just infinite, there's just [00:35:30] depth. This thing that we have inside of us is special, and to know that I have a piece of that, like I'm a splinter of that, we all have this, to know it's there, to [00:35:40] know that, um, these things aren't as important as I may think they are.

[00:35:47] Even if they are major, like these things aren't, in the grand [00:35:50] scope of things, they're not as important as I make them out to be. There's a sense of peace that comes with that, bro.

Jason [00:35:57] Mm. Yeah.

Chris [00:35:58] You know?

Jason [00:35:59] Yeah. [00:36:00] And, um, I guess as we're kind of rounding out, I'm curious... Well, first, where would, um... If, if they wanna find out more about you, [00:36:10] right, where can the listeners find you?

Chris [00:36:12] I'm @yochrisgray everywhere. That's Y-O Chris Gray. Um, I am-

Jason [00:36:18] G-A-R-A-Y ...

Chris [00:36:19] [00:36:20] G-A-R-A-Y. So Chris, C-H-R-I-S G-R-A-Y. Thanks for clarifying.

Jason [00:36:23] Yeah.

Chris [00:36:23] I'm @yochrisgray everywhere. I am more popular on Instagram for whatever reason, and I'm rarely on [00:36:30] it. But if you ever wanted to talk to me on the socials- ... like the actual me, I respond on my Facebook to my messages.

[00:36:38] Everything else is a response [00:36:40] from, um, someone handling that account for me.

Jason [00:36:42] Mm.

Chris [00:36:43] Uh, but you can find me yochrisgray everywhere. Um, and our, and our marketing company's Red Palm. That's [00:36:50] R-E-D-P-A-L-M.U-S.

Jason [00:36:51] Cool. And, um, the question I wanna end with is, um, for, for, is about the living question. [00:37:00] Um, so every time, like just as I go through life, um, there's, there's always a question that I'm living with, like something I'm exploring in that [00:37:10] moment.

[00:37:10] And right now, uh, for example, like my question is about, um, what do you do when your plate's [00:37:20] full? And not just when your plate is full, right? Because there's a lot of people who say, well, we, we got Marie Kondo saying like, "Let go of whatever doesn't [00:37:30] spark joy in your life." Um, you've got people saying like, "Oh, only work in your zone of genius," or, "Only do those things that are like in full alignment with your, [00:37:40] with your heart, mind, spirit, body, everything," right?

[00:37:44] And let's say I've done all of those things. I've, I've like taken all [00:37:50] of those things off, and then my... But my plate's still full Right? Like, what, what do I do when my plate is full of [00:38:00] things that matter to me?

Chris [00:38:01] Mm-hmm.

Jason [00:38:02] Um, 'cause, you know, I've got two kids. I've got this calling to build out this podcast and ask, um, like, [00:38:10] go get amazing kind of conversations with people.

[00:38:13] Um, and those two things alone, I mean, there's more, but those two things alone are already [00:38:20] pulling me in different directions, right? Um, so that's my current living question. Um, I wonder what your [00:38:30] current living question might be.

Chris [00:38:33] Hmm. What I hear from that is what is currently in focus for me and [00:38:40] How do I feel better?

[00:38:45] I mean, literally, like feel my emotions, [00:38:50] feel what's happening internally better. At the root of it, that's it, and I'll tell you why. I went to an [00:39:00] event, um, and it's all, all men, and similar to what we are about, like men trying to be better in the areas of health, wealth, and love, well-rounded, but [00:39:10] s- you know, be successful in all areas.

Jason [00:39:11] Mm-hmm.

Chris [00:39:13] Long story short, I watched a man process feeling like I had never seen before. Mm-hmm. I [00:39:20] watched a man, like something came up, it, it, it triggered him, and I watched him work this entire feeling, and the grief, everything heavy that [00:39:30] c- would come along with it, the type of... And do it in a way that I would probably only do behind closed doors, right?

[00:39:36] Not- Hmm ... with nine other dudes looking at me, and, and I, I, [00:39:40] I'd be all in my head at that point, like, "Do I look dumb?" But, and I watched this man just work through his feelings, just let it process, right?

Jason [00:39:47] Hmm.

Chris [00:39:48] The similar thing to be, I think [00:39:50] Eckhart Tolle talks about it, when you see, you know, two ducks fight, and then when they go separately, they shake it off, right?

[00:39:55] And they're back into their element. Animals do this. They shake off whatever, and they're back. Hmm. So it's like a human version of that. Like, [00:40:00] he just went through it all, and then was back and talking. It was one of the most powerful things I'd ever seen. Hmm. And I'm like, I noticed that that was an extreme [00:40:10] example, but I am at my best when I am feeling better, and the question becomes, what's in focus for me is then, oh, what is feeling my [00:40:20] feelings look like?

[00:40:20] 'Cause a lot of times I equate that with weakness, and-

Jason [00:40:23] Hmm ...

Chris [00:40:23] that's a whole nother conversation. This podcast could keep on going with that, but-

Jason [00:40:27] Yeah ...

Chris [00:40:27] that's what's in focus for me right now. That's my living question. [00:40:30]

Jason [00:40:30] All right. Well, Chris, it's been amazing having you on the show, man.

Chris [00:40:34] Appreciate it, Jay.

Jason [00:40:34] And we'll definitely have you come back for another one- You can say it

[00:40:37] to explore all of those other things. Thanks,

Chris [00:40:39] [00:40:40] man