Why Logic Often Fails You and the Hidden Cost of Trusting Your Gut with Taylor Frame

Speaker [00:00:00] Join us in a wide ranging conversation with Taylor Frame, father, believer and marketer.

Speaker 4 [00:00:05] We talk

Speaker [00:00:06] versus optimism.

Speaker 4 [00:00:07] How to know

Speaker [00:00:08] if what's guiding you is [00:00:10] wisdom or just survivorship bias.

Speaker 4 [00:00:12] How he thinks about

Speaker [00:00:12] the inputs he lets to his life. And the question underneath all of it,

Speaker 4 [00:00:16] when logic runs out,

Speaker [00:00:18] what do you trust?

Speaker 4 [00:00:19] [00:00:20] This

Speaker [00:00:20] is the living question.

[00:00:23] jason: Welcome to the Living Question, where we bridge the gap between living and knowing. Um, and I'm so excited to introduce you to my new friend, Taylor Frame. [00:00:30]

[00:00:30] taylor: Excited to be here.

[00:00:31] jason: Awesome, man. And I know you have kind of a, you have a wide ranging list of roles and things that you've done. Um, [00:00:40] so if you'd like to just do a short introduction of who you are and then we can hop from there.

[00:00:46] taylor: Yeah. I love it. So my name is Taylor Frame. I'm a dad, [00:00:50] uh, and husband. I've been married 15 years and then I've been in the business world, started in corporate sales and then moved over to running digital marketing agencies. [00:01:00] And I'm now on my second, uh, seven figure agency that I'm building and managing.

[00:01:05] And, uh, aside from that, just a big outdoor enthusiast and lover of [00:01:10] all things adventure.

[00:01:11] jason: Hmm. Adventure.

[00:01:12] taylor: Yes.

[00:01:13] jason: Yeah. Well that's awesome. 'cause we're all here for the adventure. Right. Um, so we always start off with, in the living [00:01:20] question is we go for what are those? Like what's a fork in the road where when you had that decision to be made

[00:01:28] taylor: Yeah.

[00:01:29] jason: The logic [00:01:30] ran out.

[00:01:31] taylor: Yep.

[00:01:31] jason: Right. And, um, I'd love to start there. Okay. Can you give us the, the set the scene for us?

[00:01:37] taylor: Yeah, yeah. Um, I, I'm [00:01:40] gonna share something that's happened within the last year that was a, just a massive shift for our family. So my wife and I, when we decided to start a [00:01:50] family, uh, we were living in Santa Cruz, California, and we had been there about a year.

[00:01:55] And then we started, you know, we got pregnant with our first. And we ended up [00:02:00] spending a decade in Santa Cruz. Uh, so 10 years right there. It's a beautiful community. We had all three of our kids there. Um, we had, and, [00:02:10] and, and when you have kids and all your friends start to having kids, like everyone's kind of in that same motion.

[00:02:17] You form like really deep and connected [00:02:20] relationships pretty quick.

[00:02:20] jason: Yeah.

[00:02:21] taylor: Uh, just because you're going through that journey of welcoming these new humans in and then trying to figure things out in real time and there's always so [00:02:30] much unknowns about having children.

[00:02:32] jason: Yeah. And then the sheer time spent.

[00:02:34] Right.

[00:02:34] taylor: Totally. And, and we lived on the east side of Santa Cruz, which is also like a very [00:02:40] beach centered town. Uh, and so we ended up spending a lot of time just at the beach with our family and friends because that's what you would do. Um, and it's easy with kids, right? So [00:02:50] a lot of beach time there, a lot of time with that community.

[00:02:53] And then while I was in Santa Cruz. I also made the shift from working at Corporate America into [00:03:00] running my own businesses. So kind of started my journey of entrepreneurship. Right.

[00:03:04] jason: Oh, and how long ago was that?

[00:03:05] taylor: So, uh, I've been running my own agencies for eight years now. Right,

[00:03:09] jason: okay. So that's pretty [00:03:10] early in the 10 years you spent there.

[00:03:11] taylor: Yeah.

[00:03:12] jason: And like, sounds like your daughter was just born.

[00:03:14] taylor: Yes, that's exactly right. So my daughter, uh, in her first two years of [00:03:20] life, I switched from working a corporate sales job. I worked for Adobe and then another tech company called Yext. Um, and moved into running [00:03:30] my own agencies, which was a very big shift.

[00:03:33] jason: Yeah. Wow.

[00:03:33] taylor: Right. So, um, essentially going from an individual contributor to wearing every hat in the business, you know, and then [00:03:40] building those, those shops up, hiring people, managing, doing sales, delivery, the whole thing. Anyways, the, the time in Santa Cruz, we were there for 10 years, it became [00:03:50] everything.

[00:03:51] Our, our community was there. My business was rooted there. Um. You know, I had a lot of friends and, and family like in the [00:04:00] Bay Area that like became our hub. Uh, and it's where we had felt totally grounded. Um, and then I was told we need to move. [00:04:10] Right. Just massive shift.

[00:04:12] jason: Oh, okay.

[00:04:13] taylor: Um,

[00:04:13] jason: who told you?

[00:04:14] taylor: Uh, it was a combination of, uh, I would say God, um, [00:04:20] and kind of what was happening in our family dynamics, which, which we can dive into, but, but ma the main thing is I felt like in my core we needed to, we needed, [00:04:30] we needed to move.

[00:04:31] Right. We had to, we had to head out.

[00:04:33] jason: Oh, really? Okay.

[00:04:33] taylor: Yeah. Yeah. And um, you know, just as you asked that question of like where logic [00:04:40] runs out and the reason I paint the picture of Santa Cruz is like how rooted we were in that community and everything that was happening. Like there was no logic to [00:04:50] move.

[00:04:50] jason: Yeah. And because like when that. When that like message came through for you, like was it because of some kind of event or anything like that? [00:05:00] Or was it, did it just come through like it's time and like why, why is it time?

[00:05:05] taylor: Yeah. So there's an interesting flow of events and I'll kind of summarize 'em [00:05:10] in a couple key things.

[00:05:11] We had a really close family that all of our kids matched up in ages, right? So it was easy to hang out with them. They lived like three blocks [00:05:20] away from us. They left Santa Cruz and that left like a big hole in our friend network and everything that we were building.

[00:05:28] jason: Yeah.

[00:05:28] taylor: And so that was, that was like one [00:05:30] small piece that started, and then at the same time when we were living there, my wife's parents, you know, both got sick and passed away and [00:05:40] Oh yeah.

[00:05:40] Really tough. Like mm-hmm. Absolutely devastating situation. They didn't live in Santa Cruz. They were in Las Vegas, but still, it kind of felt like a, a [00:05:50] cosmic shift. The way that, 'cause my wife was essentially then an orphan, right? Like both of our parents gone.

[00:05:56] jason: Yeah.

[00:05:56] taylor: Feeling very adrift.

[00:05:58] jason: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:58] taylor: And then the, the [00:06:00] second or third thing that was like kind of happening all in the same time was we were looking at the way Santa Cruz, the community developed kids [00:06:10] and we didn't love the outcomes we were seeing in high school and beyond Uhhuh, right?

[00:06:17] So we're kind of looking down the line and we're like, okay, [00:06:20] we've got this shift in the friendship network. We've got that shift in my wife's personal life that impacts us. And then we have this kind long term perspective [00:06:30] on like, how does the community of Santa Cruz, at least for us and our experience, how is this gonna impact our kids down the line?

[00:06:36] We're like, whew, these are a couple big factors. [00:06:40] Right? Yeah. So those are kind of some of the shifts and, and, um, inflection points that we're influencing that. And then I think the, the last one [00:06:50] was. I felt like inside Santa Cruz I was getting very, very comfortable. Right. And it wasn't like a [00:07:00] laziness, but it just felt like I had kind of pushed that envelope as much as I was gonna push it.

[00:07:08] Does that kind of make sense? Have you ever [00:07:10] had that?

[00:07:10] jason: Yeah. Like the, like is is it kind of like having your comfort zone and you've expanded it? Like it was [00:07:20] definitely stretch just having your kids and raising them.

[00:07:22] taylor: Yeah.

[00:07:23] jason: Um, but was it like the environment just didn't really encourage you to need to go further after that?

[00:07:29] taylor: I think [00:07:30] so. Yeah.

[00:07:30] jason: Yeah.

[00:07:31] taylor: Yeah. I think, I think that was a big part of it is, is like, I kind of felt like, okay, we've tapped in, we've got everything set up here, we've got [00:07:40] all these flows. And it started to become where like I, I'm a big surfer, so. There was like a space for like three months where I didn't [00:07:50] surf once and I lived, I lived like three blocks from the ocean.

[00:07:54] Like it wasn't a distance thing and it wasn't an access thing and it wasn't a time thing. So I'm like, what is [00:08:00] going on here? And I felt like we needed an influx of, you know, something new, something different, something for the family to like start to expand out into.

[00:08:09] jason: [00:08:10] Yeah. So 'cause you had ended your self-introduction with adventure.

[00:08:14] taylor: Yes.

[00:08:14] jason: Right? Is it kind of like the adventure ended there?

[00:08:17] taylor: Yeah, actually I like that. I didn't [00:08:20] even make that connection. Uh, yes. It kind of felt like we had had kind of tapped into that and ridden that wave for an ocean pun ridden that wave as far was gonna [00:08:30] go and, and we're like, okay, I think we're ready for something new.

[00:08:33] But going back to the initial part, there was no logic in this decision. Right. And, and I felt called [00:08:40] to it. My wife was starting to feel called to it, but also super torn. All of her best friends were in Santa Cruz, you know? Yeah. She, she is able [00:08:50] to, you know, be a stay at home mom. And so her whole life was rooted there and I'm like, Hey, we need to move.

[00:08:57] She's like, what? This is [00:09:00] crazy talk.

[00:09:01] jason: Yeah.

[00:09:01] taylor: And so I think that is one of the, one of the biggest shifts that happened in probably the last decade that we can dive into a [00:09:10] little bit more. So we moved,

[00:09:11] jason: yeah.

[00:09:12] taylor: From Santa Cruz to Santa Clemente, which is very southern part of Orange County.

[00:09:17] jason: Yeah.

[00:09:18] taylor: So it was about a eight hour distance [00:09:20] between those two locations.

[00:09:21] Yeah.

[00:09:21] jason: So you stayed in California?

[00:09:22] taylor: We stayed in California. We're we're big California people.

[00:09:26] jason: Yeah.

[00:09:26] taylor: Uh, but we wanted something entirely different and new, and so we made, we [00:09:30] pulled that trigger and moved down south.

[00:09:32] jason: Then let's talk about the decision point.

[00:09:34] taylor: Yeah.

[00:09:34] jason: Right. Like. When I, I guess you got these [00:09:40] shifts, right?

[00:09:41] And so when did it arrive at the point where it's like, okay, there was some logic in there. You had points of like, okay, like we wanna raise our kids differently. [00:09:50] Um, there's already shifts happening that would help to have like a new environment.

[00:09:56] taylor: Yep.

[00:09:56] jason: Right? Um, but when did it hit that point where it's like, and now we gotta [00:10:00] make a choice.

[00:10:01] taylor: Yeah.

[00:10:02] jason: Yeah.

[00:10:02] taylor: I, I mean, the funny thing about this, there was no like, drop off like no cliff. It was like a gradual [00:10:10] sequence of events and momentum that like led us to the actual, actual move. Where it got real is we owned our house in Santa Cruz [00:10:20] and I put it on the market to rent. Oh, okay. So I said, okay, we're gonna rent this thing out, which is gonna force our hand, meaning we're gonna, we're gonna be kicked out, essentially we're gonna be [00:10:30] evicted out of our own home and that we're gonna have to find someplace to live.

[00:10:34] Um, so

[00:10:35] jason: then, so then really that move was your commitment to we're [00:10:40] going

[00:10:40] taylor: Yeah. I felt so strongly about that, and it took about six months for my wife and I, and like, this was like an ongoing conversation. You know, you'd be at dinner [00:10:50] and she'd be like, I don't know about this move. I'm like, we're not even talking about the move, we're talking about mac and cheese right now.

[00:10:54] Uh, and it kind of became like this thing that was just hanging over our family, this decision that we needed to [00:11:00] make. And so finally it got to the point where she was like, okay, I'm kind of open to it, but I'm not sure on the timing. And that's when I listed our house for red [00:11:10] and I said, you know what?

[00:11:11] We're gonna pull the trigger and we're going. 'cause I, I feel really strong about this.

[00:11:15] jason: Yeah.

[00:11:15] taylor: And as the leader of our home, um, and [00:11:20] obviously me and my wife, we, we co-lead, right? It's always collective. But she was also going through such a hard time with the loss of both her parents. It was like she was [00:11:30] spinning, right?

[00:11:30] Mm-hmm. And I couldn't expect her. To make a decision this hard. Right. So I was like, let's, let's just give [00:11:40] this a shot. We can always, and here's what I did is I left the door open. I said, we can always come back to Santa Cruz.

[00:11:45] jason: Right. You're not even selling the house.

[00:11:47] taylor: Not even selling the house. Yeah. It's still there.

[00:11:48] It's

[00:11:48] jason: a good move.

[00:11:49] taylor: Uh, [00:11:50] and so I said, we can always come back if this doesn't work.

[00:11:53] jason: Yeah.

[00:11:54] taylor: But I think we as a family need something a little different. Let's go chase it. And that [00:12:00] was really scary for her. And so she had to, and it was also scary for me. I had to really rely on that intuition and that guidance I was given in my case.

[00:12:09] Like [00:12:10] from that higher being saying, I think it's time for this shift.

[00:12:13] jason: Right. Yeah. So that test of faith.

[00:12:17] taylor: Yeah.

[00:12:18] jason: Right. Like I've [00:12:20] said yes to calls like that before. Um, where also after that call I'm like, what did I do? Right? Like did you have any feelings of that as you were [00:12:30] kind of moving or was it pretty like, like.

[00:12:34] That it just flowed in the right direction.

[00:12:36] taylor: Yeah, no, it did not flow. [00:12:40] It was complicated. Okay. And a lot of moving parts. And let me, let me walk through that because I think when you talk about faith, it's believing in things you can't see.

[00:12:49] jason: Yeah.

[00:12:49] taylor: [00:12:50] Right. Believing in this path that may or may not lead you to somewhere where, and so you have to trust that things are gonna come together in a way that is in your best interest and [00:13:00] for your family.

[00:13:01] And I can put up with an unreal amount of uncomfortable situations, but I can't and be fine. Uh, but I can't expect my wife and my [00:13:10] kids to do the same, right?

[00:13:11] jason: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:12] taylor: So there has to be this level of, it's gotta work for everybody. It can't just be all about me. So when we made the shift to move, [00:13:20] we came down to Orange County and we were shopping for rental homes, uh, in Dana Point, uh.

[00:13:28] San Juan Capistrano and San Clemente. [00:13:30]

[00:13:30] jason: Mm.

[00:13:30] taylor: And the market in those three places is, is kind of tricky. Houses come up and if you're not on it in the first week, they go away. Yeah. And [00:13:40] then with that you have to move pretty quickly. So we were in this weird limbo where we couldn't find the right house for us.

[00:13:49] And so we [00:13:50] decided we, we had a decent amount of friends that lived in San Clemente, but we moved to Dana Point. Uh, 'cause that's where like the right house came up with the right timing and we jumped in on it.

[00:13:59] jason: Mm-hmm. [00:14:00]

[00:14:00] taylor: And, um, everything looked like it was totally in alignment. We're like, oh, this is amazing.

[00:14:07] You know, the path has been laid out for us. [00:14:10]

[00:14:10] jason: Yeah.

[00:14:10] taylor: And we moved to Dana Point and it was extremely challenging for our family, uh, to the point that my wife, at some point, we [00:14:20] were there about six, six to eight months, she wanted to move back. She's like, this isn't, this isn't working. Right. Mm-hmm. And that was a slow burn.

[00:14:29] [00:14:30] But when we moved to Dana Point, all the things on paper looked perfect. Like we were in a cool neighborhood, looked like we had some people that we knew that were in the, so we weren't like [00:14:40] blind on the community. Um, it was close to my work. I got a little office, so it was like five minute commute. So everything was like lining up.

[00:14:48] We're like, oh, this is killer.

[00:14:49] jason: Yeah.

[00:14:49] taylor: And [00:14:50] then we started going through the motions. We got our kids in schools and we tried to make friends and we were like trying to get, and it just was not working. Um, and so we were at [00:15:00] once again, another inflection point where it's like, do we pull up stakes and head back to Santa Cruz or do we give one more thing a shot and move again?[00:15:10]

[00:15:11] jason: Wow.

[00:15:11] taylor: Right. And so I made the, another executive decision. I'm like, okay, I think, I still feel called that we need to be here. So we move from Dana [00:15:20] Point to San Clement. That's when everything clicked, like in a pretty unreal way.

[00:15:25] jason: Really.

[00:15:26] taylor: Yeah.

[00:15:26] jason: Wow. So as you were making these [00:15:30] decisions, right, like the, the big thing about the forks in the road is there's consequences.

[00:15:34] Yes. Like what was the, what was the cost to like you and your [00:15:40] family to even just make that move from Santa Cruz down?

[00:15:43] taylor: Yeah. Uh, I mean, it was very unsettling for everybody. Uh, and brought a lot of fear, [00:15:50] especially for my daughter. She had a, like a bunch of friends in Santa Cruz and she was, uh, eight, eight and a half at the time, and she really missed her [00:16:00] friends.

[00:16:00] Like, that was really hard for her. Um, and then my wife and I, we had really good friends there. They were like adult friends.

[00:16:07] jason: Yeah.

[00:16:07] taylor: And, you know, we lost those a little [00:16:10] bit. Like we still stay in touch, but it's a lot harder, you know, you're not there. Um,

[00:16:14] jason: yeah, without the proximity, like,

[00:16:16] taylor: yeah, it's just difficult.

[00:16:17] Everyone's so busy, you know, so you kind of [00:16:20] lose those friendships and that support. And then monetarily, uh, really expensive moving families. And when you're doing rentals, like, [00:16:30] you know, you have deposits and, and high rental prices and right, so it's really competitive markets, so financially big, uh, big move.

[00:16:39] Uh, and [00:16:40] then on just your overall feeling settled, like, so I guess peace of mind if we talk about that cost, stepping totally into the unknown, [00:16:50] moving to a new school, new community, new church community. All these things add this whole level of like, man, did we make the right call here? [00:17:00] And I think this is like, the principle I've learned is that when you all are called to something and you spend some time thinking about it and really milling it over and making that right [00:17:10] choice, when you do make the choice.

[00:17:12] You gotta, you gotta have conviction in that choice or in that trade.

[00:17:16] jason: Mm.

[00:17:16] taylor: And you've gotta run with it, knowing that for us, it was [00:17:20] an eight or nine month run where it felt like we made the wrong choice.

[00:17:24] jason: Yeah.

[00:17:24] taylor: And then on the other side of that, everything clicked. And now we're at a place where [00:17:30] our kids, my wife and I, the community, everything's coming together better than we could have ever imagined.

[00:17:36] But there was like a nine, 10 month gap there [00:17:40] that if we didn't have conviction in that move, we would've been wrecked.

[00:17:44] jason: Yeah. Like if you answered the call and you're like, this is not what we signed up for. God. Like, this [00:17:50] is nine months of like, like hell. Right. Like, what's, what's going on right here? And, and so with that, you also course adjusted.

[00:17:59] You're like, [00:18:00] okay. Right place. But maybe it's the wrong house.

[00:18:03] taylor: Yeah.

[00:18:04] jason: Right. Maybe it's the wrong community that we're plugged into.

[00:18:09] taylor: That's [00:18:10] exactly what it was. Yeah. And I mean, going back to, I love the way you introduced this is like there was no, there was not a lot of logic in all of this. You know, this was [00:18:20] expensive, it was hard on the family, it was a move into a complete unknown.

[00:18:25] But I knew that there was something on the other side of this. And part of me [00:18:30] deeply believes whether it's in business or family or personal development, that God wants the absolute best for us. Like, he really does wanna open like [00:18:40] insane doors for you and live, help you realize your absolute best life, but you've gotta be in forward momentum, right?

[00:18:48] And if you're not in forward [00:18:50] momentum, he can't open doors. 'cause he, he could open three or four doors in front of you, but if you're not walking through 'em, like it doesn't make sense, right?

[00:18:58] jason: Yeah.

[00:18:58] taylor: So you have to have that forward [00:19:00] momentum. And when we move to Dana Point, massive forward momentum, but he's like, Hey, I, I still got two more doors to open for you.

[00:19:06] So keep walking. This is gonna not be the, [00:19:10] your most favorite part of the walk. Yeah. But you've gotta get through this to get to the other two doors on the other side, right?

[00:19:16] jason: Yeah.

[00:19:17] taylor: And what's so interesting about this is [00:19:20] life is a game of contrast is we wouldn't have realized how beautiful our life is now if we didn't go through that eight or a month [00:19:30] period where things weren't ideal.

[00:19:31] And we were really struggling as a family on the other side of that. We're like, oh, this is what he had in mind. [00:19:40] But we had to be patient. And that's hard.

[00:19:43] jason: Yeah. Yeah. And I'd imagine like head of being the head of household and you made the executive call [00:19:50] and having your, your, you know, board of advisors come up to you and be like, Hey, um, I don't know if this call is really working out.

[00:19:58] Like, what are we gonna do? [00:20:00]

[00:20:00] taylor: Yeah. And the board of advisors being my wife and kids. Yeah. Like watching them struggle and they struggled, like,

[00:20:08] jason: yeah.

[00:20:09] taylor: It, [00:20:10] my kids at school, like weren't finding a good mix. They were kind of struggling academically and with friends. Um, and then my wife, like walking, [00:20:20] she's trying to manage that while managing, you know, trying to get us into this new community.

[00:20:24] And that was really tough. And it just kind of felt like we were rowing against the [00:20:30] current. Right. And it just kind of stuck feeling like, ugh. A lot of angst. And then also a lot of questioning like, what did we do? Like, [00:20:40] was this

[00:20:40] jason: Yeah.

[00:20:41] taylor: And so head of household, I, I really viewed my job as twofold. One is to hold space for [00:20:50] everybody.

[00:20:50] jason: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:51] taylor: And say, we got this. We're gonna figure this out. We're gonna do it as a team. We like, we're gonna work through this. Then coaching individually with the kids and my [00:21:00] wife being like, Hey, I got you. I see you. I see how hard this is. Um, and then, so that was the first part, holding space, being there, coaching.

[00:21:09] And then the [00:21:10] second one was, you know, I deeply believe men are really good at solutions. Like, we just love solutions. It's like our vibe.

[00:21:19] jason: Yeah.

[00:21:19] taylor: [00:21:20] Um, and uh, my wife wishes I wasn't so good at solutions. Maybe a little bit better listening, but yeah. That's for another, that's for another day. Yeah. Um, but, um, [00:21:30] the second part, the mantle that I wore at that time was like, I've gotta fix this.

[00:21:35] Like, we've gotta, I've made this move, I pulled this all down here, there's still something we're missing. [00:21:40] Let's go find that. Um, and so, you know, architecting that and moving everyone in this direction, being like, gimme one more shot at this [00:21:50] before we pull up stakes and head back. And then everything, you know, worked out in a pretty magical way.

[00:21:56] jason: Yeah. And you did this while running a business full [00:22:00] time. Right. And not only that, being the coach, being the, being the husband and being like the listener, [00:22:10] like there was a lot of weight on you it sounds like, in this period.

[00:22:15] taylor: Yeah. This was very, very intense for me. Like as [00:22:20] wearing all those hats.

[00:22:21] jason: Yeah.

[00:22:21] taylor: Um, what I didn't share is before we moved from Santa Cruz, my initial agency that I had [00:22:30] started, um, I separated from my then partner and took my half of the business and sold it into my current partnership.

[00:22:38] jason: Oh.

[00:22:38] taylor: So [00:22:40] just before we moved, this was maybe six months before we decided to leave, not only was there a massive transition in moving from Santa Cruz, like family life, [00:22:50] personal life. Massive shift in business. I got new business partners. Oh wow. We doubled the size of our team. 'cause they had about 10 people.

[00:22:58] We had about 10 people. So [00:23:00] merging these two agencies,

[00:23:01] jason: geez.

[00:23:02] taylor: Uh, and doing this move, I was like, whoa, have I bitten off way more than I could chew? Uh, [00:23:10] and there's a couple things I did to like, one, I had to really lean into the relationship with my wife. I'm like, listen, I need your support on the business side for you to [00:23:20] hold a little space for me, and then I'm gonna hold as much space as I can for you on the family and relationship and like community side.

[00:23:27] Mm-hmm. Right. So we really had to [00:23:30] kind of, it's like hot potato. It's like, Hey, you gotta hold this now and then pass it back. Like, we played a lot of that. And then I'm a big fan [00:23:40] of, um, I do a lot of sauna and cold plunge. That's like my, oh,

[00:23:43] jason: I love it.

[00:23:44] taylor: That's my way of like dealing with stress is I, I'll go in sauna and I like to just like.[00:23:50]

[00:23:50] I'll put on some music and just really get into like, okay, what am I feeling? What's going on? It's almost like a meditation for me. It really is. It's a combination of like sauna [00:24:00] meditation and prayer, kind of where you're working through these things in this intense environment and because it's so hot, it's really hard to, uh, get outta [00:24:10] your body.

[00:24:10] jason: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:11] taylor: Right? The heat, like bring, like focuses, you kind of

[00:24:14] jason: Yeah. It kind of squeezes you in,

[00:24:15] taylor: right? Totally. Yeah. You know, you can't think about like random stuff. [00:24:20] It kind of forces you to really confront the main issues, at least for me. So the only way I was able to get through this whole period was doing a decent amount, [00:24:30] like in the sauna three or four times a week, really trying to process these things, create space prayer, meditation, and saying, okay, we got this.[00:24:40]

[00:24:40] Getting that reaffirming, this was the right move. You are doing the right things. Like continue on the path. Even though I call it the valley, like we were in the valley, couldn't see the peak. [00:24:50] Things were really shifting in ways where I'm like, ah, this is a lot. Right. Yeah.

[00:24:56] jason: That's, that's epic, man. So what I'm, [00:25:00] what I'm hearing as well is you, you didn't skimp on the, your personal time and your self care to fuel yourself, like to the, those kind of [00:25:10] cup, personal cup filling things were just as important in this process, um, as you giving and pouring into both your [00:25:20] family and your business as all of this was happening.

[00:25:22] taylor: Yeah. Yeah. That, that's exactly right. Like

[00:25:26] jason: did you have other cup filling things that were [00:25:30] supporting you in that?

[00:25:30] taylor: Yeah. Yeah. There was a couple things. You know, one, I've built a really good network of. I'm gonna call 'em business friends, but they've [00:25:40] now just become friend friends. Right.

[00:25:42] jason: Okay. Yeah.

[00:25:42] taylor: Uh, so I have a really strong network of, of other guys, um, that run businesses and we've become very, [00:25:50] very tight and that was a massive help.

[00:25:53] I could call them and I could complain or just share some of the things that were going off [00:26:00] and they could just listen. Or if I wanted help, like, Hey, I need actual advice, like what do I do here? They had that. So that support system that was spread [00:26:10] across the country was, was massive. Uh, that helped me a lot.

[00:26:14] And, and I firmly believe that without a community of people that can see you in lots of [00:26:20] different zones, uh, and what is cool is a lot of these men are also business owners and dads and so like they get it. Yeah. Get that, that [00:26:30] dynamic. Uh, so that was massively helpful. The other thing that I do is, um. I would go down to the ocean like pretty much every day.

[00:26:39] And [00:26:40] even if I didn't get in the water, just looking at it, we, we would go watch the sunset as a family.

[00:26:45] jason: Yeah.

[00:26:45] taylor: And that 10 minutes is very calming. And that was another [00:26:50] way that I was able to, one, keep the family together. Yeah. Because everyone was like, dad, you brought us down here. What is happening? Right.

[00:26:57] But also,

[00:26:57] jason: what's so good about this? Like, let's just go look at the [00:27:00] sunset.

[00:27:00] taylor: Let's just go look at the sunset. Go

[00:27:01] jason: for a moment.

[00:27:01] taylor: Everyone's gonna calm down. So, but, but those two things really helped fill my cup. And because we had so much [00:27:10] intensity, you know, this business transition was really hard. Melding teams together, even if everyone's on the same page, is really challenging.

[00:27:19] It's like, wait, when I [00:27:20] thought you did that, no, I'm doing that. Like, who's doing that? Who's got that? Like a lot of that and sorting out the system. I mean, you're a business systems guy, you get that. Yeah. Like bringing teams together is hard. [00:27:30] So we were going through that on the business. And then on the personal side, integrating this new community.

[00:27:35] It was a wild time, my man.

[00:27:38] jason: Yeah. Yeah. What an [00:27:40] adventure, huh?

[00:27:40] taylor: It was. Okay. So it was definitely, I'm gonna keep

[00:27:44] jason: tapping on

[00:27:44] taylor: that. Yeah. It, it, it was, man, it was a huge adventure. Um, [00:27:50] and I always say it's like it's not an adventure until something goes wrong, otherwise it's just a vacation. Like, and, and something always goes wrong.

[00:27:58] And then, and then you're like, okay, now we get to [00:28:00] have an adventure. Like this is where it starts to get interesting.

[00:28:02] jason: Yeah.

[00:28:03] taylor: Um, every story has to have, uh, an antagonist. And, and this was as a [00:28:10] family, our, our biggest adventure to date, you know, making that shift

[00:28:13] jason: Yeah. And making that move. The, the thing that I'm so curious about too is [00:28:20] as you're making this move, right, and, um, right now I'm personally considering a move.

[00:28:26] taylor: Yeah.

[00:28:26] jason: And. I've got like mixed reviews, right? [00:28:30] Like one of them's like, oh, like, you know, my wife's half the time she's like, okay, this is what we'll do there.

[00:28:35] taylor: Yeah.

[00:28:35] jason: And the other half's like, why don't I just stay here and then you move to that [00:28:40] new place, I'll just stay here with the kids. And I'm like, not quite how it works, but I hear you and I appreciate what you're feeling right now.

[00:28:48] Right, totally. Um, [00:28:50] and so I, I've been feeling like a, a smaller sense of that, of what you experienced, um, when, now that you've done the move it, you went [00:29:00] through that trial

[00:29:01] taylor: Yeah.

[00:29:02] jason: And you're living even better than before. Like, what did that teach you about intuition and the call?

[00:29:09] taylor: [00:29:10] Yeah. I, I think the biggest thing is that when you feel called to make like a big decision like that, it's [00:29:20] always important to gut check it.

[00:29:21] Like, okay, is this the right move? Why am I doing this? What's driving this? And if you don't have like super clear answers, but you're still [00:29:30] feeling called to it, like you kind of gotta lean into that. Like that's the faith. So there, there was two massive takeaways. One, I felt like [00:29:40] God had a very real plan for me, uh, and he had a very real plan for my family.

[00:29:46] And the things that we wanted, we got clear on. [00:29:50] We wanted a really good school for our kids. We wanted to have our life within biking distance, meaning school, work, friends, all without [00:30:00] getting in the car. That was something that we were really clear on. We wanted to live in a community where our kids could have friends that they could walk to their houses.[00:30:10]

[00:30:10] jason: Oh

[00:30:11] taylor: yeah. And that's a hard one to get. It's especially today's age. Um, and the last thing we wanted is we wanted to be as [00:30:20] close as we could possibly afford to the beach. Right. So those were kind of, we got really clear on our, this is what we want, this is what success looks like.

[00:30:28] jason: Yeah.

[00:30:29] taylor: Uh, and [00:30:30] then we just had to start rowing the boat essentially into the fog.

[00:30:33] Um, and as that happened, because we were clear on our outcomes and because we [00:30:40] trusted that this was a divine call, all of that worked out. And every one of those boxes I just mentioned, we have checked, which is insane to me. 'cause this [00:30:50] is, those are pretty big boxes. I'm like, there's no way. Uh, and it's all come together.

[00:30:54] Right. So the first one was like, you gotta have faith and you have to have clarity around what you're [00:31:00] trying to chase. If you're like, I want a good life. Well, a good life could be a cabin in the wilderness, or it could be living in an rv, driving around the, you know, the US with [00:31:10] your family. Or it could be living in a townhouse in New York City.

[00:31:14] jason: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:14] taylor: Right. But if you don't know what a good life means, like how is God or anyone gonna guide [00:31:20] you or create that path for you? Right.

[00:31:22] jason: Yeah.

[00:31:23] taylor: So the first one was clarity and faith, and then the, the second big takeaway is that [00:31:30] you have to be present in the journey because that's where the magic is happening.

[00:31:37] So even though things were really rough in Dana [00:31:40] Point, and like we were struggling, there was still presence in that being like, okay, this is hard and it's okay that it's [00:31:50] hard and we're not trying to fight from it, and we're not trying to run from it. We can be present to it. And there was a lot of beautiful moments where we were able to hold our kids, or my wife and I holding each other, being [00:32:00] like, this is really hard.

[00:32:01] Like this sucks right now.

[00:32:03] jason: Yeah.

[00:32:04] taylor: And that presence allowed us to then say, okay, take a breath. What's next? Do we need to fix [00:32:10] this? Do we need to just work on our own mindset? Are we the problem is the exterior of the problem? Like what's happening? And then from that clarity, we could make. Better choices. So [00:32:20] presence is, so for me at least, it's everything.

[00:32:23] 'cause if we're constantly trying to run something or live in the future, we're missing what's happening right now. So those are my two big takeaways. [00:32:30]

[00:32:30] jason: Awesome. And you know, a listener listening along with this, and if they're not Christian and they don't, they're, they hear the call, they hear this calling thing, [00:32:40] um, what's like, so like, I wanna play that role.

[00:32:43] taylor: Yeah.

[00:32:44] jason: And one of the questions that comes to mind is, okay, like, let's say you did that, but [00:32:50] what about survivorship bias? Right? Like, what if you're just one of those people who felt, oh, like it's time to move.

[00:32:56] taylor: Yeah.

[00:32:56] jason: And you had a success story, but what about [00:33:00] all these other people who maybe felt that same inclination to, to move And it's like they, they felt the conviction and they did all of this and they ended up, you know, somewhere else [00:33:10] or, yeah.

[00:33:10] Not where they intended, like Mm. What makes it different from

[00:33:14] taylor: Yeah.

[00:33:14] jason: Like from what you experienced. And what might have made it different, even [00:33:20] if you didn't, even if you moved back or even if you moved somewhere else.

[00:33:23] taylor: Yeah. So however you define the [00:33:30] divine, you know, whether it's the universe, you know, or a different religious figure that you look towards, I deeply believe that, and this is maybe where I [00:33:40] differ from a lot of people, but I deeply believe that the universe is conspiring in my favor.

[00:33:46] Um, and, and I, and I believe that [00:33:50] there are amazing things out there when we take risks and when we try new things and when we are trying to [00:34:00] progress. And then the key here is being presence in the progression, right? Like, hey, I'm doing the work, it's hard, or I'm doing the work and I'm really enjoying it, [00:34:10] or I'm doing the work.

[00:34:11] And like realizing in that process what you're feeling. Um,

[00:34:17] jason: so to, to reflect back real [00:34:20] quick. Yeah. Thank you. Being present in the moment, is that kind of like, um, you know, as you're doing whatever the thing is, whether it's you're working hard, [00:34:30] um, you're searching, you're seeking and you're, you're even maybe even wrestling with the thought of, oh, like this is the move that I have to make, but I feel all of these [00:34:40] doubts and concerns.

[00:34:40] taylor: Yeah.

[00:34:41] jason: Like not, I guess not turning away from those emotions that are coming up.

[00:34:46] taylor: Yep.

[00:34:47] jason: And that would be presence.

[00:34:49] taylor: Yeah. [00:34:50] Yes. So for example, when we were in Dana Point, like there were many nights where I would go and, and do the sauna and I felt like this is [00:35:00] heavy right now. Like, I am not living my best life, my family's not living its best life.

[00:35:07] And then I'd start to really contemplate, where's that [00:35:10] coming from? Like, is it my own self doubt? Is it the external situations that are happening? Um, is it just like the [00:35:20] insecurity of the move? Right. And I got clarity on those things by being present to what, what am I actually feeling? So it wasn't just bad.

[00:35:28] Mm-hmm. I had to label [00:35:30] it, like break it down.

[00:35:31] jason: Yeah.

[00:35:31] taylor: And what we found is that inside of that, there were a lot of things externally that happened that we couldn't control, that were negatively impacting my [00:35:40] family. So I'm like, okay, this isn't necessarily, this isn't us just feeling bad because we're in a new place, but there are some factors here that we need to change.

[00:35:49] jason: Yeah.

[00:35:49] taylor: [00:35:50] And so that's why the move down to San Clemente was so important for us. Right. But it was differentiating that is like, okay, I feel bad, but why am I feeling bad? Let's get clarity on that. [00:36:00]

[00:36:00] jason: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:01] taylor: And then I think that the other point that you make here, which is, it's hard because I, I do believe in a divine and I do believe that like the universe is, so it's hard for me to [00:36:10] talk from a perspective where that.

[00:36:12] Is not in play.

[00:36:13] jason: Yeah. Like what if you just got lucky and you're like

[00:36:15] taylor: Totally

[00:36:15] jason: Oh. Like,

[00:36:16] taylor: yeah. Yeah. And I, I, and [00:36:20] I don't ever want to use my, uh, belief in the divine as a blanket being like, oh, [00:36:30] everything's gonna work out.

[00:36:31] jason: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:31] taylor: Right. Sometimes it doesn't, like both of my, my wife's parents were super healthy, amazing people, and they got sick and died.

[00:36:39] [00:36:40] Technically that's not working out. Like that's bad.

[00:36:42] jason: Yeah.

[00:36:43] taylor: Um, but also there was some beautiful things we learned from that. Um, and, and I do think [00:36:50] for me at least a portion of faith and, and the journey in the adventure is that it, it will work out in your best interest. But that's [00:37:00] like a belief that I've developed and like really nurtured and fed for a really long time.

[00:37:05] So maybe it's like the, I think, what do they call it, recency bias or, or [00:37:10] there's a term for it. Yeah. That means you're like kind of forcing it. I don't know. This is a tough one.

[00:37:15] jason: It's an interesting one. And, and the reason why I brought it up was because, um, there's [00:37:20] like a, there's a probability of it. Right?

[00:37:22] taylor: Totally.

[00:37:22] jason: And for those who don't succeed, like for every Jay-Z that comes out of the ghetto, how many didn't make it?

[00:37:29] taylor: Yeah.

[00:37:29] jason: Right. [00:37:30] Like you, you, you have that as like a probability standpoint.

[00:37:33] taylor: Yeah.

[00:37:34] jason: Um, but what I noticed that seemed different from beyond just like, [00:37:40] oh, I just moved in faith and it worked out for the best.

[00:37:43] taylor: Yeah.

[00:37:43] jason: Like we could generalize what you said into that.

[00:37:46] taylor: Yeah.

[00:37:47] jason: Um, right. Because that, that's one of the threats. [00:37:50] But the other threat I saw as well was. Every time you ran into a new challenge, you also like broke it down. It wasn't like you were just like, and then I prayed [00:38:00] and God said, you will be okay. So I said, great.

[00:38:04] I'll stop feeling bad about myself. Now we're gonna keep moving. Right? Like, no, you were like, oh, well let's divide it [00:38:10] out. Let's, let's look at why it's happening. Let, let's point, like, let's look around and be, do our own detective work our own homework on this situation. [00:38:20] Um, and, and I feel like that part is you do what you're capable of.

[00:38:24] taylor: Yep.

[00:38:25] jason: Right. You let God do the rest. Because like outside of that, like, you know, there's [00:38:30] the, the higher power and the universe is at play now.

[00:38:32] taylor: Yep.

[00:38:32] jason: But if you do everything within your role of looking at those different things, checking like, Hey, does this [00:38:40] really make sense? Like, at least from a logical standpoint, like, we're coming back to logic here.

[00:38:45] taylor: Yeah.

[00:38:45] jason: But like, it's kind of a, like with logic, you can at least check your [00:38:50] bases. See where you're at and say, okay, where is it really coming from?

[00:38:54] taylor: Yep.

[00:38:55] jason: And if it is part of that unknown, now you've got some data feedback of, alright, [00:39:00] now am I trusting this unknown? Why do I still, like you had mentioned it, put this before of, oh, well I looked through all of the [00:39:10] logic and it wasn't really enough, but a gut feeling kept saying go.

[00:39:15] taylor: Yeah.

[00:39:17] jason: And even that's feedback, right? Of like, [00:39:20] there might be something that you, you just can't verbalize or, or paint into like this nice little box of, and this [00:39:30] is my business plan,

[00:39:30] taylor: right.

[00:39:31] jason: And we're gonna be rich. Right? Like, and it comes back to business, right? But it's, it's like there's, there's sometimes you, you just don't have that.

[00:39:38] And then there's people who [00:39:40] start businesses that by all means shouldn't have existed and shouldn't have been successful. And you, you, like, you paint their journey. Like you see their journey in this like, harrowing path of. [00:39:50] Success and then like all of these failures and somehow another success and this and this, and it's like that path itself [00:40:00] is really difficult to recreate.

[00:40:02] taylor: Yes.

[00:40:03] jason: Right? Because it's like a winning lottery ticket.

[00:40:04] taylor: Yeah.

[00:40:05] jason: But I think, I believe no matter what though, there are principles within [00:40:10] that are guiding points.

[00:40:12] taylor: Yep.

[00:40:13] jason: Right? So it's not just about Oh, like faith, like faith as one component. And it's, it is a core component. Like I, I have faith.

[00:40:19] taylor: [00:40:20] Yeah.

[00:40:20] jason: Right. And I also have a mind, right?

[00:40:24] I have strategy, I have the, the logical breakdowns of things because those are within [00:40:30] my own human power to use and to think about and to say, oh, like, like you can look at a, like a dashboard and say. I mean, [00:40:40] you're in marketing.

[00:40:41] taylor: Yep.

[00:40:41] jason: Right. So you can look at a dashboard and be like, there's a problem here.

[00:40:44] Yeah. And I can tell because some of these dials are not reading what they're supposed to do.

[00:40:48] taylor: Totally.

[00:40:48] jason: Right. And, and [00:40:50] like with that sense now, you know where to dive deep.

[00:40:52] taylor: Yeah.

[00:40:53] jason: Right. And I see you doing that same thing in your personal life as you're navigating the world.

[00:40:58] taylor: Yeah.

[00:40:58] jason: Which doesn't come with many [00:41:00] dials.

[00:41:00] Like that's maybe the unfortunate part. Yeah. Or, or maybe the fortunate part.

[00:41:03] taylor: Yeah. I love what you just said because you took the stuff I think I was really struggling to [00:41:10] understand. You put it in a really nice context and that gave me some ideas. So when I look at this move and this shift, I love the idea of like a [00:41:20] dashboard dials.

[00:41:20] 'cause that's what I live off of in, in my work life. Everything is, is dashboards and metrics and dials and where are we at. And I constantly teach my [00:41:30] customers, you know, my clients, Hey, if we're just looking at one number. A lot of people like to look at return on ad spend. We, we do a lot of paid ads.

[00:41:39] jason: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:39] taylor: So [00:41:40] it's like, that's the number that I got. My ROAS matters a lot. Yeah. Return on ad spend. And I'm like, well, it doesn't tell the full picture. There's a lot going on. There's what you pay to [00:41:50] acquire a customer. There's your marketing efficiency rate, which is like, what is your total spend on ads versus your total return.

[00:41:56] Uh, we also need to take into account lifetime value. There's all these [00:42:00] metrics.

[00:42:00] jason: Yeah.

[00:42:00] taylor: And I think life is actually very similar where, not to oversimplify it, but I think there's like four key metrics is your [00:42:10] body, like what's happening with your health. There's your being, which is your relationship with the higher divine, you know, and your spirituality.

[00:42:18] There's balance, which [00:42:20] is the relationship with your family and your community. And then there's business, which is like your financial and your work life. So those are my four dials that I look at. Right. [00:42:30] And I can say, okay, where am I at? You know, and obviously this is all. Made up. But you know, like how successful are we across these four dials?

[00:42:39] [00:42:40] And that can help guide my decisions in that metrics. I think there's a couple key principles we've talked about faith. Mm-hmm. Right? Which is a key one, which is [00:42:50] big. But I also think one of the underlying things here is ownership or responsibility. And everyone loves to say like, no one's coming to save you.

[00:42:59] Like, yeah, okay, [00:43:00] no one's coming to save you, but how much ownership and responsibility am I willing to take for my life, for my [00:43:10] setup? Right. And I think the more ownership and responsibility you're able to adopt, and not in a shame way. This is where I see the down the dark side of [00:43:20] this is a lot of people will loop on shame.

[00:43:22] jason: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:23] taylor: It's more looping on optimism. Here's what I mean by that. I could say, alright, my kids right now are struggling in school. [00:43:30] They're like not making friends. What part of that can I. Am I texting other dads to try to set up play dates? Am am I teaching my kids to be [00:43:40] good at school? By good, I mean like, let's not hit other kids.

[00:43:43] Or like, are we being inclusive, right? Like, are we fun to be around? Like I can kind of own that. You know, am [00:43:50] I getting involved in the sports that they're potential friends are? Like, am I willing to sacrifice my time to drive them to surf lessons or to flag football or whatever, right? [00:44:00] Mm-hmm. So I can't control their friendships, but I can control some of the inputs that lead to good friendships, right?

[00:44:07] Yeah. And so as a dad, I'm like, am I [00:44:10] willing to take on that responsibility or not? So faith is crucial that inspired this whole move, which we're, we've been talking about, but also there's that ownership [00:44:20] level of what can I own and what can I actually influence in my little realm of control.

[00:44:25] jason: Yeah.

[00:44:26] taylor: And then I think the third one that we've.

[00:44:29] That we've [00:44:30] touched on, like trying to break these into actionable principles. We've got faith, we've got ownership. I think the last one is, and this is hard, this is something you have to [00:44:40] develop, I call it eternal optimism. Like you gotta be optimistic that things are gonna work out in your best favor and then take actions in alignment with that.

[00:44:49] And [00:44:50] when we do that, like it's like that person that you meet that's like always kind of up and Adam, good things just seem to happen to that human.

[00:44:58] jason: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:58] taylor: Right. And, [00:45:00] and this is a, this is a muscle we can build. It's saying, alright, that was a really bad day, but was there one thing today that was cool?

[00:45:07] Like, was there one thing that happened? And if we force [00:45:10] that, like that muscle gets stronger and stronger. And while I was in Dana Point, there was a lot of like bad things happening where I'm like, geez, [00:45:20] it's that eternal optimism that I'm like, this is gonna work out in our best interest.

[00:45:23] jason: Yeah. Can, can you bring us to one event?

[00:45:26] The of like, what did you think, how did you do [00:45:30] your, how did you check in and do all of those things to bias towards optimism?

[00:45:35] taylor: Yeah. So when [00:45:40] we moved into our Dana Point house, there were some really cool things about the house. It was, it was, uh, a nicer home. It was fully furnished. [00:45:50] It was much bigger than our house in Santa Cruz, much nicer.

[00:45:53] And so our home base got a big upgrade.

[00:45:56] jason: Yeah.

[00:45:56] taylor: From where we were in Santa Cruz. Um, and that [00:46:00] felt really good. And like, uh, our harmonizing for our family, like everyone had a little bit more space. My daughter finally got her own room. My boys had their [00:46:10] own like little space that they could destroy. Uh, and so yeah, they did.

[00:46:15] Um, so like the home base improved a lot, [00:46:20] but the neighborhood we were in was really tough. Like, our kids weren't making friends very easily. They kind of felt a little, a little [00:46:30] segregated or left out from what was going on. Mm-hmm. So the upside, right. But that big downside.

[00:46:36] jason: Yeah.

[00:46:37] taylor: And so what I did, I said, okay, [00:46:40] where are the winds?

[00:46:42] We got a nicer house, a little more furnished, much more functional kitchen. Our kids have a little more space. We had a bigger garage so we could get more surfboards, [00:46:50] which is a huge indicator of happiness for me. So like, all these things came together. I'm like, these are huge pluses. The

[00:46:55] jason: surfboard dial

[00:46:56] taylor: totally needs to be, you can,

[00:46:58] jason: yeah.[00:47:00]

[00:47:00] taylor: They, a lot of people that have, uh, hobbies that involve things have, it's called the n plus one rule. Have you heard this?

[00:47:06] jason: Yeah.

[00:47:07] taylor: Yeah. It's like how many, how many bikes is ideal? Well, it's n which is [00:47:10] the number of bikes I have. But if I could get one more then that. Same with surfboards. It's like what's the optimal number of surfboards?

[00:47:17] It's n plus one. Uh, anyways,

[00:47:19] jason: [00:47:20] I totally get that.

[00:47:20] taylor: Yeah. Um, and so there were some huge wins in the move. Put massive downsides. So we categorized those, said, [00:47:30] okay, friends, community, these other things like aren't working.

[00:47:33] jason: Mm.

[00:47:33] taylor: Right. And so the optimism thing came and said, Hey, we've made some really good progress and here's [00:47:40] some gaps and can we control these gaps?

[00:47:43] In this case, we decided, no, we can't. We need to move to control those gaps. So that's when like,

[00:47:48] jason: and then that was a yes we [00:47:50] can, but in this way,

[00:47:51] taylor: in the optimism. Yeah. So going back to these three principles, if I had to like sum it up, if you had to like try to apply this crazy story. Yeah. It's faith ownership [00:48:00] optimism.

[00:48:00] jason: Hmm. Wow. That was pretty good.

[00:48:04] taylor: Yeah.

[00:48:04] jason: Did you just come up with that?

[00:48:05] taylor: I did.

[00:48:06] jason: That's impressive. That's impressive. I'm not a framework guy.

[00:48:09] taylor: [00:48:10] Yeah.

[00:48:10] jason: Uh, so you must've had some training somehow.

[00:48:12] taylor: I don't know

[00:48:13] jason: to

[00:48:13] taylor: lock those in came from, but that, there it is, man. Faith ownership, optimism. The foe method.

[00:48:18] jason: The foe.

[00:48:19] taylor: FOL [00:48:20]

[00:48:21] jason: or

[00:48:22] taylor: fufu.

[00:48:22] Yeah, the fu yeah.

[00:48:23] jason: Like foo Fighters.

[00:48:24] taylor: I love that. Yeah. It's the fu it's the fu method. Yeah. And I think like, [00:48:30] look like, I feel incredibly grateful for the journey because it's, everything is, is turned out better than I could ever [00:48:40] imagined. Which is crazy to say because my life in Santa Cruz is pretty good.

[00:48:44] jason: And you've been flexing an optimism muscle, which paints a high bar,

[00:48:48] taylor: right? Yeah. It paints a high bar. Yeah. [00:48:50] And, and, and things are, um, just amazing and, and I, I really credit that a lot back to. Those, those [00:49:00] three principles. Yeah. You know, faith, optimism, ownership. You can do beautiful things in life. Does it mean that I'm like a multi trillionaire?

[00:49:09] [00:49:10] No, but like how I've defined, defined success in my life, like what that looks like. I'm hitting all those numbers and it's really, really cool. [00:49:20] Um, and that feels amazing. So I think having clarity around what you're actually chasing and then moving towards that in a, [00:49:30] in a way like taking real action can lead to beautiful things in life.

[00:49:35] jason: Yeah. That's awesome man.

[00:49:38] taylor: Thank you.

[00:49:39] jason: And it sounds [00:49:40] also like a lot of these are just as powerful when applied in business 'cause you did that in your life. And I, I, [00:49:50] I feel like there's similarities es especially in business when, when, like in these kinds of shifting times where things happen so quickly, so rapidly, [00:50:00] like there's markets kind of appearing and collapsing

[00:50:02] taylor: Yeah.

[00:50:03] jason: In a span of like a couple days sometimes.

[00:50:05] taylor: Yeah.

[00:50:06] jason: And so moving with, uh, like, [00:50:10] I mean, before, before this talk we had talked about like AI doom and gloom versus like an AI optimist.

[00:50:17] taylor: Yeah.

[00:50:18] jason: Um, and I believe both are true. [00:50:20] It's not that there's one or the other. I mean, there's massive pros and cons to the wave that's happening in our lives right now.

[00:50:27] Um, but the quote, um, the quote, [00:50:30] the late Jim Rohn, he, he always said like, well, life is a mixture of, um, it's opportunity mixed with difficulties.

[00:50:37] taylor: Yeah.

[00:50:37] jason: And if you focus on one versus the other, you, [00:50:40] you tend to get more of that.

[00:50:42] taylor: Yeah.

[00:50:43] jason: Like, I think to what you're saying of like, when you're optimistic and you're looking for those opportunities, they're easier to find.

[00:50:49] [00:50:50] And if, if people want like a neuro, like a brain, a brain hack point, 'cause I'm a nerd, um, there's that thing called the reticular activating system, which is you [00:51:00] tend to find more of what you look for.

[00:51:01] taylor: Yeah.

[00:51:02] jason: And for people who just, let's say they just got a new car, for example, they might to start, like let's say you get an Audi and then all of [00:51:10] a sudden you notice there's way more Audis on the road.

[00:51:13] Totally. And you're like, what are they doing here? Right. And they got it in my exact color, which I thought was totally unique. And now I'm not [00:51:20] like, I'm just one amongst like many. Yeah. Right,

[00:51:22] taylor: right.

[00:51:23] jason: But it they were always on the road.

[00:51:25] taylor: Yeah.

[00:51:26] jason: Right. So if you, whether which, whichever one you [00:51:30] look at, it's kind of like you get to decide personally which one you want more of.

[00:51:34] Which one you'll notice more. And it's not that like optimistic people don't have challenging lives or [00:51:40] tough trials and tribulations happening in their lives. It's like, it's like Yeah. And there's other opportunities too.

[00:51:48] taylor: Yeah.

[00:51:49] jason: Right.

[00:51:49] taylor: [00:51:50] I mean, let's take AI for example, and apply the faith ownership and optimism framework that we've developed.

[00:51:56] Yeah.

[00:51:56] taylor: Right. So inside of AI right now, we, [00:52:00] we run a marketing agency. I have like 35 people on staff. And, uh, it's scary for us. Like, we're like, okay, are AI gonna take like all the [00:52:10] work that we do for our clients?

[00:52:11] jason: Hmm.

[00:52:12] taylor: And so the first thing, let's take faith, we're like, okay, the universe is, is moving these things in a way that's gonna [00:52:20] allow us to flourish.

[00:52:21] jason: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:21] taylor: So what I tell my team is say, listen, all the busy work that you've been doing that you probably don't love about your job, let's figure out a way to get that off your plate [00:52:30] so you can do what I really hired you for, which is. Think about really cool ways to market stuff on the internet and the team's like, oh, actually I do [00:52:40] hate doing, like running this report.

[00:52:41] I'm like, well, we'll automate it.

[00:52:43] jason: Yeah,

[00:52:43] taylor: we'll have this report done that used to take you two hours of your time that you looked, you did not look forward to every week. And now I'm gonna [00:52:50] give you two hours back in your day where you can go think about a really cool way to sell this product. And they're like, rad.

[00:52:58] Right. So faith.

[00:52:59] jason: Yeah. [00:53:00] And that's leadership too. Yeah. Like that's not just like, oh, you thought about it that way. You're like, oh, like how is my team taking that? And they might be like, well, is my job [00:53:10] now on the chopping block? Which could, because for marketing especially, like

[00:53:14] taylor: Totally.

[00:53:15] jason: People are using it a lot in that area and you can get some pretty decent stuff.

[00:53:19] taylor: Yeah.

[00:53:19] jason: [00:53:20] I'm not gonna say like amazing, but you can get some decent stuff enough to like, I don't know, sell a product,

[00:53:25] taylor: but Yeah, potentially.

[00:53:26] jason: Yeah. Um, but for, for you to also think like, oh well. Uh, [00:53:30] also putting yourself into their shoes and giving some coaching and some, like some framing.

[00:53:36] taylor: Yeah.

[00:53:37] jason: To rally them to the cause in [00:53:40] and in a real way.

[00:53:41] Right? Yeah. It's not like a fake kind of rallying

[00:53:43] taylor: No. Like this is very real. Like, it's

[00:53:45] jason: like the real opportunity

[00:53:46] taylor: applying this right now. So first principle, faith, right? This, this, these things are [00:53:50] happening for our benefit. How do we ride that wave?

[00:53:52] jason: Yeah.

[00:53:53] taylor: The second one is ownership, saying, all right, in this, where can we use AI to make our systems [00:54:00] better, our team better, our outputs better, and actually applying stuff and running tests and figuring it out.

[00:54:07] So like our, we have a whole creative team. [00:54:10] Our ability to produce creative has doubled without us having to hire more people.

[00:54:15] jason: Yeah. Wow.

[00:54:15] taylor: And so that team now is driving more revenue [00:54:20] at a higher profit margin than they ever were before. That's a huge win for everybody.

[00:54:24] jason: Oh yeah.

[00:54:25] taylor: And that locks them in on their jobs.

[00:54:27] We're not being like, Hey, we're gonna replace you with robots. We need you to run this [00:54:30] process.

[00:54:30] jason: Yeah.

[00:54:31] taylor: And so that's like the ownership piece. And then, and then I think the last point is the optimism is we're constantly saying, okay, [00:54:40] these tools are cool, but you still need someone smart that understands how to market and how to convince people to do stuff.

[00:54:48] Like the machines can give you some [00:54:50] ideas, but the implementation and the execution is really important.

[00:54:54] jason: Yeah.

[00:54:54] taylor: And that's where I'm saying, Hey team, let's be optimistic here. Let's look at the, at the [00:55:00] upside here and apply that into our business. So what's been really cool is one, we've been able to move faster and more efficiently than before, but we haven't had to lay [00:55:10] anybody off.

[00:55:10] Like we've kept our same workforce, but our productivity's gone way up. Right? So there's the, the faith optimism and ownership f. [00:55:20] Being practiced inside the business.

[00:55:22] jason: Yeah. Yeah. And I love that you also, it sounds like you've also, you also led from that frame of like, well, we're not [00:55:30] firing anyone that we don't need to.

[00:55:31] Yeah. But it sounds like you also put that question in of, now how do we do that in a way [00:55:40] that fought like that still rides the wave.

[00:55:43] taylor: Yeah.

[00:55:43] jason: Right. Not, not becoming like some kind of artisanal marketing company that doesn't use any AI for [00:55:50] anything. Right. Yeah. But riding that in a way that still gets wins all around.

[00:55:55] Yeah.

[00:55:56] taylor: Yeah, that's exactly right. Is [00:56:00] what I believe is as AI continues to expand, what is left is the art, is the novel. Ideas is like the beautiful out of the box thinking. Mm-hmm. That's the stuff that [00:56:10] AI is not very good at. Yeah. Right. And that's what humans are good at. And we have just been bogged down with, I call it like factory.

[00:56:18] Is, Hey, I need you to come in and you [00:56:20] plug these inputs in and you build this model and you execute this thing. Yeah. It's very factory.

[00:56:24] jason: Yeah.

[00:56:25] taylor: But where I see us moving, and this is once again my optimism and my faith [00:56:30] showing up, is I think we're gonna be able to be more artistic and more creative and think bigger thoughts, and then the [00:56:40] execution is gonna be a little bit more robot set up.

[00:56:42] Right. Which is kind of the hard part in some of the boring parts as well.

[00:56:46] jason: Yeah.

[00:56:46] taylor: So I trying to tap our team into, hey, how [00:56:50] can we be creatives? How can we think out of the box, crazy thoughts, and then go put 'em into motion? And luckily that works really well in marketing.

[00:56:58] jason: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:56:59] taylor: So [00:57:00]

[00:57:00] jason: the perfect storm, man.

[00:57:01] taylor: Yeah, I think I'm, I'm very optimistic about it. And once again, built that muscle, but very optimistic about this. I think it's gonna do a lot of good things. [00:57:10]

[00:57:10] jason: Yeah. And I think like when, when we were going, you also had another, another place that. Stood out to me. 'cause we had talked before about your, your work [00:57:20] schedule.

[00:57:20] taylor: Yeah.

[00:57:21] jason: Right. Like taking Friday off, having like calculating like six hours a day. Yeah. Almost like a, like usually

[00:57:29] taylor: Yeah. [00:57:30] So my, my goal on that is I wanna work Monday through Thursday from nine to three.

[00:57:36] jason: Yeah.

[00:57:36] taylor: Is my goal.

[00:57:37] jason: And that's awesome. Right. Because being a [00:57:40] father myself, like I, I get the intention of wanting to be there.

[00:57:43] taylor: Yep.

[00:57:44] jason: Right. And so, I mean, it makes sense how we met

[00:57:47] taylor: Yeah.

[00:57:47] jason: As well through a community called Front Road Dads [00:57:50] Uhhuh. So, so the big part that, that I noticed too was like you had made a, a conscious trade off. 'cause you had also mentioned like Yeah. [00:58:00] And once I spent all the time with my kids, like then I can go and, and see if I wanna like, maximize the amount of income that I can make.

[00:58:07] taylor: Yeah.

[00:58:08] jason: Um, so, so like was that also [00:58:10] one of those choices like that you did early on or was it more like a recent. Kind of thing.

[00:58:18] taylor: Yeah. [00:58:20] I, I think, I mean, as a very driven person, I've always tried to maximize income. Um, I've, I've just enjoyed that process and, and it's been a fun [00:58:30] journey for me. But I think where the big shift was is my daughter just turned 10 this last month, and that was a big wake up call.

[00:58:38] Like I essentially have eight [00:58:40] years left with her. So I've already gone through like, a lot of our, not our core memories, but like 10 years went by pretty quick.

[00:58:49] jason: [00:58:50] Yeah.

[00:58:50] taylor: And so I'm like, okay, like I really gotta lock in and be, I can't just be a, a work dad, like, and [00:59:00] just do work all the time. I've gotta be, uh, and so the reason I try to cap my day at three is my kids get off school at two 30.

[00:59:07] jason: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:07] taylor: So gives me a little time to hopefully wrap [00:59:10] up my day. And this isn't perfect. Like, once again, there's some days where I work till six. But most of the time I'm home between three and four in the afternoon and we go do fun stuff as a [00:59:20] family, we'll go for a walk or we'll go to the pool or we'll go walk to the, the ocean.

[00:59:23] Um, and I really cherish those moments because they go by so quick. Right. [00:59:30] So for me, I'm, I'm trying to find, I don't like the word balance. 'cause it, it iterates like 50 50 and life is never like that. I like harmony [00:59:40] where it's like a music, you know, there's really highs and there's low lows and we're trying to find like that beautiful flow between all those

[00:59:46] jason: Yeah.

[00:59:47] taylor: And, and that's what I'm trying to do. And so create [00:59:50] structures that allow that harmony to develop. And it's been great. I call 'em Summer Fridays where I don't work on Fridays. I just kind of do deep work, but I'm like, I want Summer Fridays [01:00:00] all year long.

[01:00:02] jason: Yeah, yeah. You're an adult.

[01:00:03] taylor: Yeah, exactly. I want, I want Summer Fridays.

[01:00:06] So it's, it's been great, man. But it's, um, yeah, not without its [01:00:10] challenges like all good.

[01:00:11] jason: Yeah. Yeah. Like could you list like just a couple consequences of making that choice?

[01:00:19] taylor: Yeah. [01:00:20] Mondays can really suck.

[01:00:21] jason: Ah.

[01:00:22] taylor: Uh, because, you know, I, I always try and I built systems so that my team is managing a lot of things, but still, like, you know, when I [01:00:30] try to open up Slack and email on Monday morning, I can be a little overwhelming, you know?

[01:00:35] jason: I can imagine.

[01:00:35] taylor: Yeah. And that's, that's part of it. I'm like, okay, well I made that choice if I'm gonna take Friday off and like [01:00:40] disconnect and try to like do some things for myself and things for my family, like there's a trade off with that. So I can't on Monday like, be mad. I made that [01:00:50] choice. Of course I'm gonna have an influx of messages from my team.

[01:00:52] Like they have questions, right?

[01:00:54] jason: Mm-hmm.

[01:00:55] taylor: So Mondays are, can be really rough. That's a downside of not working on a Friday. [01:01:00] Um, the other thing is I do a lot of sales and partnership for my company. So my days between nine and three have very little breaks.

[01:01:09] jason: [01:01:10] Ah, yeah.

[01:01:10] taylor: Right. I'm, I'm cranking. Mm-hmm. So like, a lot of my buddies are like, Hey, can you go to lunch?

[01:01:14] I'm like, no, I actually, I don't really do lunch during the day during a workday, so it's a trade [01:01:20] off. Right. So I'm pushing, I'm working very efficiently, but it's, it's a lift, right? Yeah. It's, it's a hard, and I'm disconnected.

[01:01:29] jason: You've compressed that [01:01:30] time.

[01:01:30] taylor: Yeah.

[01:01:30] jason: Yeah.

[01:01:31] taylor: And, and I'm, I'm trying to have, I'm divorcing the word hard.

[01:01:35] I don't love that word. Uh, because if, if you're like a hard worker, what type of work are you [01:01:40] calling in? You're calling in hard work. I don't wanna do hard work. So it's more of like, it's a chance for me to really get efficient and really build systems to support me when my calls are [01:01:50] back to back.

[01:01:50] jason: Mm.

[01:01:51] taylor: Um, so yeah, those are some of the, I'd say the downsides.

[01:01:54] jason: I see. And, and I think like the, the upsides of that, like for, for me, when [01:02:00] I've felt like I've worked hard and. Put everything on the table. Yeah. Like, I'm like, okay, during this time, like I got to perform at like peak [01:02:10] performance, not just because I wanted to be at peak performance. Also, the work demanded it.

[01:02:14] taylor: Yeah.

[01:02:15] jason: Um, I feel really great after those, right? Like, even, even [01:02:20] now, it's, it's like, although it's compressed or whatever, like the cost of it, getting a chance to really like put everything [01:02:30] that I've got into motion is fulfilling in its own way. Like it feeds me.

[01:02:36] taylor: Yeah.

[01:02:36] jason: Not all. Like, I, I shouldn't, I can't do it all the time because peak [01:02:40] performance all the time is like, it does lead to burnout.

[01:02:43] You need that equivalent rest or recovery for every individual. Right? Yeah. Um, but when I hear that, I'm like, oh, that [01:02:50] makes sense. Because you can come out of that having performed and you, you get, you can be proud of your work. You can be like, okay, like whether or not it was a [01:03:00] good day in terms of outcomes.

[01:03:01] You can save. I did that.

[01:03:04] taylor: Yeah.

[01:03:04] jason: And then you can go and say, all right, now let's change. Right.

[01:03:09] taylor: [01:03:10] Yeah. I I love that man. I, I do deeply believe that doing good work and working in a way that challenges you and inspires you [01:03:20] is really cool. And it's a, not everyone gets that. Like, I want everyone to create that, but I know like there's a whole range of jobs out there, and not every job is like soul filling.

[01:03:29] jason: [01:03:30] Yeah.

[01:03:30] taylor: Um, and I've been blessed and grateful for the fact that I've been able to create that for myself. But I do recognize that, you know, it's, it's hard. It, it takes a [01:03:40] lot of intentional choices and downside. But one thing I will say is that as I compressed my work week and really focus on that, I brought in a [01:03:50] new assistant about a month ago, and, uh, she was like, okay, we're moving really fast.

[01:03:55] I'm like, yeah, but it's great. Like, we're moving fast. We're creating these things. [01:04:00] We're building all this stuff. We play hard and we work hard at the same time. Right. And it's really beautiful. You do walk away from a week [01:04:10] where you're like, we got a lot of stuff done. And that was cool.

[01:04:12] jason: Yeah. And especially with that timing.

[01:04:16] taylor: Yeah.

[01:04:16] jason: It's like, okay, well in that Monday through Thursday, can you [01:04:20] outperform what maybe an average person could do? Like, not, not to like,

[01:04:24] taylor: yeah.

[01:04:24] jason: Like not to compare, but also to compare and be like, well, because the trade off in my head is like, okay, well, [01:04:30] as an entrepreneur, I, I wanna do the best I can and achieve the best possible outcome that I can.

[01:04:34] taylor: Yeah.

[01:04:35] jason: Right. No matter what.

[01:04:36] taylor: Yep.

[01:04:36] jason: Right. If it sells, I wanna sell the most.

[01:04:38] taylor: Yep.

[01:04:39] jason: And [01:04:40] at the same time, well, if I know that with my skill in a smaller pocket of time, I can achieve the same thing. It almost like [01:04:50] lifts some of that weight off of me when I step out.

[01:04:52] taylor: Yeah.

[01:04:52] jason: Um, like w. Alex Hormoz says different, right?

[01:04:58] Yeah. He'll say something like, oh, [01:05:00] well I know a way to make more income is like, you also work weekends. And there you go. Which is true. Right? Totally. Like if you also work that time and you're making even more calls, cool.

[01:05:09] taylor: Yeah. Great. [01:05:10]

[01:05:11] jason: But also then, you know, he doesn't have kids and they made the choice.

[01:05:14] Like, I remember they had, uh, when I was following him more, they, they had said something about like, oh, we're [01:05:20] choosing not to have it right now because we're building our empire. And I'm like, okay, I get that.

[01:05:24] taylor: Cool.

[01:05:24] jason: Right? Yeah. But I also can't take his advice exactly the same way, um, because he doesn't have that [01:05:30] balance.

[01:05:30] taylor: Totally.

[01:05:31] jason: Right. Or not balance, like the rhythm of

[01:05:33] taylor: Yeah.

[01:05:33] jason: Family life. 'cause it's a whole nother set of demands,

[01:05:36] taylor: a whole nother set of demands. I, I think it's really [01:05:40] important in the world of all these gurus telling us what to do and how to live. I, I call it a little bit punk rock. Which is you gotta [01:05:50] chart your own course.

[01:05:51] jason: Mm.

[01:05:51] taylor: Because here's what's gonna happen. If you don't have clarity, I'm gonna sell you something.

[01:05:55] jason: Oh, yeah.

[01:05:55] taylor: And, and you're probably gonna buy it. 'cause we're really good at selling stuff. And [01:06:00] so you've got It's true. I mean, that's all we do at our marketing companies. We sell stuff, whether it's online courses or e-comm brands, like we're helping [01:06:10] people find products and buy 'em.

[01:06:11] Right? Yeah. And we're really good at that.

[01:06:13] jason: Mm-hmm.

[01:06:13] taylor: Um, you've gotta get clarity on what success likes is for you, and you've [01:06:20] gotta be a little punk rock in that being like, you gotta push against some of the standard things. Like a big thing is like, you're only successful as you own a house. What? [01:06:30] It's like the silliest thing ever.

[01:06:31] jason: Mm.

[01:06:31] taylor: Uh, like for most people it makes no sense to own a home. And the tax advantages and all the things that used to be in play, they don't even really apply [01:06:40] anymore.

[01:06:40] jason: Yeah.

[01:06:40] taylor: Right. So it's like, okay. Does success. And that's just one small example. Another success would be like, you make a lot of money. Yeah.

[01:06:48] But at what cost? [01:06:50] Like you never see your family, you're overweight, you're traveling a ton, you're sleeping in hotel beds all across the country. Is that success, [01:07:00] right? So and for some people it is, and some people it's not. So it's a little punk rock. You've gotta write your own song, be like, where does success fall for me?

[01:07:09] And then you [01:07:10] have to relentlessly chase that and you gotta say no. And there's trade offs. Yeah. Right. Working nine to three. I probably don't make as much money as I could make if I worked, you know, [01:07:20] Monday through Friday, you know, eight to six. But that's a trade off I'm willing to make because financial success for me is only one indicator.

[01:07:29] And a lot of [01:07:30] indicators I've set up, what's way more important to me is, is sitting on the sand with my kids.

[01:07:35] jason: Yeah.

[01:07:36] taylor: And that's worth a lot of money for [01:07:40] me, that I'm willing to give up to have that experience. Hopefully that kind of helps people. Like clarify.

[01:07:46] jason: Yeah. Yeah. Like this is the living question, man.

[01:07:49] [01:07:50] Like as we navigate all of these different pieces, how do we live our lives? And what kind of questions are we asking? Right? Like when we're talking about are we asking [01:08:00] optimistic questions, are we asking doom and gloom catastrophe questions? And I think there's a healthy balance and like, like a lot [01:08:10] of those questions are needed at least to check in on.

[01:08:13] Yeah. But what are we asking most of the time is one of the lessons that I'm getting from our conversation here.

[01:08:18] taylor: Yeah.

[01:08:19] jason: Yeah. I

[01:08:19] taylor: like [01:08:20] that a lot.

[01:08:21] jason: So as we wrap up, man, um, how can the listeners find out more about you?

[01:08:26] taylor: Yeah, so, um, I got a semi-active LinkedIn profile. I [01:08:30] post things here and there.

[01:08:32] jason: All right, cool.

[01:08:32] taylor: I like that. Yeah, so Taylor Frame, uh, on LinkedIn and then the company I run is called Best Practice Media, so [01:08:40] best practice media.com. Um, and that's a, it's a really kind of fun environment where you can see a lot of what we do and how these principles are reapplied in, in real time. [01:08:50] So those would be the two best ways to find me.

[01:08:52] jason: Awesome. Yeah, and we'll have those in the show notes, uh, but if you're listening and you just wanna find them like right now for some reason, then go for it. Taylor's a great [01:09:00] guy and it's been just an incredible conversation right here, man. Thank you. I appreciate you being here.

[01:09:04] taylor: That's amazing. Thank you for hosting.

[01:09:05] jason: Awesome. Alright.

[01:09:08] All right. Okay.