Her Year-Long Migraine Broke on Day 3 of Total Silence with Kelly Greenheart

Jason [00:00:00] Someone listening to this is carrying a decision. Someone listening to this is carrying a decision they haven't said out loud yet. Kelly Greenheart said hers out loud for the first time in this conversation. She carries a gene that makes breast and ovarian cancer not just a possibility, but a likelihood And when the weight of that landed, she had to find her own answer, not because it was the only path, but because it was hers.

Jason What followed wasn't a clean recovery. It was a woman rebuilding in real time her health, her sense of self, and her business, while life kept demanding that she show up anyways. She didn't come here to perform courage. She came because someone needs to hear what it looks like to trust yourself when the stakes are that high.

Jason This is the living question.

Jason All right, so welcome to the Living Question Podcast, where we look for the bridge between knowing and living. And I'm so excited to have [00:01:00] Kelly Greenheart here with us today. we're actually in Austin, if you, in case you didn't know from the background. It's different from what we usually do. and I'm real excited because while I'm here for the week, we get to interview a couple people, and Kelly was somebody that's came highly recommended by your husband, but also-

Jason for a very good- Biased. Well, probably a little biased. But he spoke the world of her, and as well as like after hearing about what she has gone through and experienced and really like what you're working on now, it's incredible, what you have, like kind of where you have been and where you are now.

Kelly Thank you, Jason, so much for having me. so let's see, where to begin.

Kelly I'm Kelly Greenheart. I am a mother of two, a six-year-old and a four-year-old. I have a wonderful husband who I've run a business with for over 16 years. We do film production, documentary production, and we also [00:02:00] have a circus entertainment company.

Kelly It was keeping us pretty busy, and then several years ago, I think about five years ago, I was at, my doctor's office, and there was a flyer that said, "Have you done... considered genetic testing? Has anyone in your family had breast cancer?" And I said, "Yes. Actually, five members of my family have had breast cancer," and so I signed up for genetic testing.

Kelly And out of that, I found out that I have the BRCA1 gene mutation, which puts me at a 80% likelihood of developing breast cancer and a 40% chance of developing ovarian cancer.

Jason Oh, wow.

Kelly So that's... Being presented with that diagnosis is... And everything that happened since then is brough- what brought me here today, likely, that story.

Jason Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and when we're talking, like, about the living question, one of those things is, [00:03:00] okay, like, what happens when you reach one of those forks in the roads, the decision points that, logic doesn't really decide things for you anymore. It's more... There's more to it, right? And m- I'm curious for you, like, how did you experience that?

Jason Because when... If you look at the numbers and you're saying an 80% chance and a 40% chance, those are really high. And so it almost feels like, like logic was pointing towards taking care of that early. But there's so much cost to that, And so can you walk me through,

Jason that?

Kelly Oh, yeah. So, oh man, I went into it very naively. I thought, "Oh, if I have the BRCA1 gene mutation, that just means I do extra mammograms every year or extra testing." I didn't realize that the, protocol, the advised protocol by Western medicine and 90% of doctors [00:04:00] is to cut out those organs.

Kelly So they recommended a double radical mastectomy and a total ovariectomy, so removing my cervix, ovaries, uterus, and fallopian tubes- Wow ... as soon as possible.

Jason As soon as possible?

Kelly Yes, or before I was 40, and at the time I was 37.

Jason Oh, wow.

Kelly Okay. So, and at that time I had, a seven-month-old, or may- no, maybe she was only three months, a three-month-old and a, almost three-year-old.

Jason Wow.

Kelly So I f- I, I came into this awareness being very distrusting of the Western medical complex. Mm-hmm. Like, I really skewed towards, natural healing, alternative therapies. Yeah. And so I explored, I met with so many doctors and also alternative doctors

Jason Yeah ...

Kelly to get a big, like, [00:05:00] understanding my options and-

Jason Yeah, like as wide a field as possible

Kelly as wide a field as possible.

Jason Mm-hmm.

Kelly and I ha- I remember one doctor specifically seeing my face and, like how I was, like, deer in headlights. She said, "You're probably wondering why you opened this can of worms, but this can of worms probably just saved your life."

Kelly And that really stuck with me.

Kelly And I did a lot of meditation around whether I wanted to proceed with these surgeries. I talked to a lot of friends, and then I also reflected on the five families I've had that f- four of which died from one of these cancers. Mm-hmm ... ovarian or, pancreatic cancer is also increases the likelihood, and then also breast cancer.

Jason Oh,

Kelly man. And so my odds were very high.

Jason yeah.

Kelly And but I, at the same time I was like, "Well, this is hypothetical. How can I make an [00:06:00] informed,a decision that sits with me when I may never develop any of these cancers in my lifetime and I cut out healthy tissue?" it felt like very not fair in some ways to- Yeah

Kelly people that have ha- devel- developed cancer and didn't get to do the BRCA testing first. it also felt unfair to my ancestors who didn't have access to genetic testing, and they had to face cancer and, go through chemo. So it was a very oh, I just, I didn't know how to make sense of it. But after enough time, I decided that I did wanna proceed with the surgery.

Kelly I had met with another doctor who said that

Kelly how to [00:07:00] One way to look at it is if you have this information, and does this information, are you okay with it, with the unknowing or knowing that this risk is out there and it, you're actually fine with it? Or does this information create dis-ease in your body? And dis-ease manifests as disease in your life.

Kelly Mm-hmm. And there's so much research around how cancer, develops in bodies that are stressed out.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly Biologically, I can't even go into that science or data, but I,And then I was scheduled for the mastectomy and, I developed laryngitis right before the mastectomy.

Jason I went in that morning not being able to talk. I was terrified about the surgery that was coming. I- that morning, I had looked myself in the mirror and made eye contact and said, "Why am I even doing this?"

Kelly And I had so much [00:08:00] hesitation and fear, and I really didn't know if it was the right choice.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly but then while I was in the pre-op room, I had already, like, sanitized the whole body with those really sticky sheets, and I was in the gown, and I was laying on the table, and the anesthesiologist came in. And my husband had to translate for me because I couldn't talk. And I asked her is this a good idea?

Kelly Should I be doing this? And previously all of my surgeons were like, "Yes, definitely. We want you to ... We don't wanna cancel because it'll be a disconvenient, inconvenience for everybody." And, but then they even said, one of the nurse aides said, "We'll operate on you unless you've been hit by a train or something."

Kelly And I thought like- Yeah ... wow, those are really... You do not have the patient's in mind for this. Yeah. It is really just keeping the system going- ... the schedule, like, n- not wasting money or d- being [00:09:00] a inconvenience to the hospital. when we, I asked the anesthesiologist, "Is this a good idea?"

Kelly And she said, "Honestly, if it was me on the table, I would cancel." And I am so grateful that anesthesiologist had the courage to share that and what it might have meant for her job, 'cause she probably got a ton of flack from the surgeons in the hospital. so we canceled. I walked home, or I walked out of the room, and it felt very surreal to have done all of this mental, emotional, spiritual prep leading up- to the surgery, and then... Like, I feel like if there's, parallel universes, that is a moment when it f- when my life forked.

Kelly And-

Jason Yeah ...

Kelly so the surgery was postponed six months. And- Crazy ... yeah, during that time I had actually developed sensitivity in one of my breasts. [00:10:00] Yeah. And I was on a trip to California, and I couldn't go see my doctor immediately.

Kelly And the way that my mind fixated on, "Oh my gosh, it's cancer. there's nothing I can do about it." It's like I just- ... I kind of mentally unraveled. Yeah. And that, when I... That doctor had said, "Does this knowledge create dis-ease?" I said, "Yes." I'm getting chills just thinking about it. Yeah. I was like, "Yes, that is exactly what he was mentioning."

Kelly And so I went into the next surgery very prepared.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly Like, I knew it was the right decision.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly And had I not... I feel like had I not had that cancellation and I had the surgery, still to this day, I might have been wondering if it was the right decision. But that was the affirmation-

Jason Yeah ...

Kelly that I needed that I should proceed with that surgery.

Jason Wow. There's a lot in there that we can unpack. like c- can I reflect back to you- Yeah ... on some things that I noticed there? 'cause man, just [00:11:00] hearing that, like, I don't know. Like, there, there's been times in my life when I worked myself up, all up to this big thing, and but... and maybe the viewers can relate too.

Jason It's like when you work yourself up to this huge thing that you're gonna do, and then it gets, like, postponed or it gets, like, kind of pushed out, like, a little bit. And sometimes I think that it's the universe giving us a test run-

Kelly ...

Jason of like, all right, like, you're fully committed, but there's something that happens almost outside of your purview that's like, all right, like, you can...

Jason No, like, let's take a beat. and you're almost... Like, sometimes you're forced. Sometimes you can make that choice yourself. but like, but you can fully embody that feeling of have, having had committed. And it's cool that you were able to experience both. Like, you experienced the opportunity to walk away and not do it, and then you also experienced the opportunity to do it and get the result on [00:12:00] that side too.

Jason but like I feel like that's one of those God things that, that like- lets you live a little more with, with less regret.

Kelly Exactly.

Jason Yeah. Yeah, and that's really cool. and there's one thing I picked up on, that you said before, which was you had mentioned that doing your surgeries would be like a disrespect to your ancestors.

Kelly Mm-hmm.

Jason And I wasn't sure where to like come in with that, so now we're here. but like what do you feel that means to you?

Kelly So what came up for me was guilt that I got... I... What... Why do I get to make this choice and others- Yeah ... don't?

Kelly Or others didn't get- m- that opportunity.

Kelly also because it, that was one [00:13:00] side. I was feeling, a part of me felt guilty, a part of me felt lucky.

Jason Mm-hmm.

Kelly and then because of that I also had shame that I, I was, I got to, I just got to make this choice and others didn't.

Kelly but I had a friend- ... share with me that helped change that narrative that, this, I am granted this opportunity, and this is where this ancestral trauma ends. I get to make this choice for my ancestors and my lineage and my children and their future children that I don't leave two young kids without a mom because of this disease that has been plaguing our ancestry.

Kelly And once I saw it in that perspective, I was able to receive that gift and t- turned it into a gift rather than a curse. "Oh, why me? Why did I get this diagnosis?" It's, it is a gift to have this [00:14:00] knowledge- Yeah ... and to take matters into my own hands.

Jason Yeah. Yeah, so like a cycle breaker.

Kelly Yes. Yeah.

Jason Yes.

Jason Yeah, and it's cool. We're actually here in Preston's studio, Preston Smiles. Yeah. And Pre- cycle breaking is like all he talks about.

Kelly Really?

Jason Yeah, and so I, I feel like it's such a great place to be talking about that. and isn't it interesting, though, like, that we, y- we could feel guilty about having an opportunity that people that just wouldn't have had that opportunity.

Jason Like, if we think about your ancestors, if they had the choice, would they have tested and taken matters into their own hands? Probably, right? But now you get to do it, but, like, there's like, where's the... it's interesting 'cause, like, I've felt that in my own life of, like, guilt of having an opportunity that other people don't, but if they had that opportunity, would they take it?

Kelly Yeah.

Kelly And that's a good, that's a good point that you bring up, would they take it? [00:15:00] And from, coming from an alternative medicine perspective, I felt really- apprehensive. Like, this is going against what I believe. I believe that we can heal ourselves naturally.

Kelly What does that say about me if once faced with this and I change my mind, am I a hypocrite?

Kelly Oh. And I was afraid how my community that aligns with that belief, how I may be received for taking the surgical approach. And I brought this up to an alternative, healing nurse practitioner, or she wasn't, she was in the Western medical system, but I went to her because she understands and appreciates Eastern medicine as well.

Kelly And she said, "I have had a lot of friends try to cure cancer naturally, and they're not alive anymore."

Kelly And it's like these little moments that the doctors and my [00:16:00] friends have given me little snippets of their insight that I latched onto, and it really helped me make sense of how I wanted to proceed.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly Yeah.

Jason Yeah. I feel like, that reminds me of something that a friend had said to me, which was that, he believed that medicine is... Like, there's a place for all kinds of medicine, both Eastern, Western, and anything that anyone has ever come up with, and it's almost like it's... He, how did he say it?

Jason He said it was almost silly to limit the universe in the way that it could help you. And so if we're like, if we're like, "Okay, I want you to help me, God, but only through this modality," right? Like, not even, like, let's say all of them, but, like, only through Theta healing do I wanna be healed through this thing right now, can you please do that?

Jason And maybe there's like three or four other things that they could just, do, or maybe there's an IV [00:17:00] treatment that you can take and you'd just be better, it's like all was... It all came from somewhere good.

Kelly Yeah.

Jason Right? It all came to serve some- somebody, to help somebody, and if we actually, like, shove away opportunities that can help us, what are we saying about ourselves?

Jason And so that's like something I've reflected on there.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly That's a great point.

Jason And s- and so tell me then, when you made the... Was there... I guess where was the point where you had made the choice of like, "Okay, we're going all in"? Like, you had walked away from that first surgery, and like what kind of cemented for you?

Jason Was it the moment where you felt like the sensitivity and you're like, "Oh my God, it's cancer. I better get it. Like, it's time to go and get it done"? or was there something else kind of in there that helped you really be committed and like following all the way through with it?

Kelly So I, [00:18:00] in regards to the mastectomy, which was the first surgery I did six months before the total hysterectomy-

Kelly I called in a lot of signs. I said, "A- am I making the right choice?" And signs just started showing up. ... I had my acupuncturist gave me homework assignment to create a healing avatar.

Kelly So an image of myself that h- he understands my fears, constraints, the reality, and also projects how I can be and how I can heal. So you kind of get it all off on the table. And the day that I was journaling about this healing avatar, she... I had postponed it for many months. And the last time I had seen her, she's like, and I was like, "I'm still unsure about this decision," and she said, "Well, maybe you should ask for a sign."

Kelly And [00:19:00] so I was, had been journaling about this healing avatar, and then I went just and saw the Avatar movie in the movie theater. And then on, when I got back home, a piece of art had been delivered that had flown in, from Ireland. A friend had commissioned- Wow ... an artist, and I opened it up, and it was this beautiful woman, topless, expanding her chest and balancing on a circus tent.

Jason Whoa.

Kelly And the artist's statement about it was exact- like, so similar to what I had journaled about was my healing avatar.

Jason Wow.

Kelly And the name of the title of the painting was Devi Master. So, I ran a circus production company, so she took on the idea of ringmaster, r- someone running the show, and Devi in goddess- means goddess. So goddess, ringmaster. And so that became the name of my healing [00:20:00] avatar, and I hung it up in my surgery room. I hung it up in my recovery room. And also that next morning, another friend sent me a playlist, and the first song on that playlist was Goddess Healing. So it just, those were the signs that allowed my intuition to feel like, okay, this is aligned.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly Yeah. And another thing that really helped me kinda keep the fear at bay was that I love events. I love celebrations. And my friends, similar to how you have a bridal shower or how you have a baby shower, to honor those big life transitions, my friends hosted me a sister circle right before the surgery-

Kelly which we called Toolootatas. And it was a fun- It was just like- ... a fun celebration that had meditation and also honoring everyone's family members who have had breast cancer.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly And [00:21:00] I think going into it with a sense of community and support also affirmed- this is, this, e- even if this is scary for me as an individual, my community is there to hold me.

Jason Yeah. Yeah,and how important it is to have a community that can hold you.

Kelly Yeah.

Jason Yeah. That's beautiful.

Kelly Yeah. Can I also piggyback onto that? Yeah. The recovery from the mastectomy was, physically very challenging. Basically, I had a DIEP flap revision, so they reconstruct your breast with your belly fat.

Kelly Yeah. they took out eight inches of skin from my torso, and they sew you together at a right angle, so you can't lay flat. I was stuck in a La-Z-Boy for two months.

Jason Oh.

Kelly Bed, La-Z-Boy ridden.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly So that slowly over time my ca- skin could stretch out.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly And, that's a, to be bedridden and not being able to engage with your, or my two small children- [00:22:00]

Jason Yeah

Kelly was so mentally torturing, but I had a constant stream of friends come by to visit me and share in that experience and tell jokes, and also I got to pry them about, I got very existential during that time and was asking my friends questions that I had never asked before about their spiritual paths or their spirit.

Kelly Like, what do you even believe happens after death?

Kelly and a lot of my friends, we all had young children during COVID. M- many of us had never spent time together away from , outside of our children.

Kelly And this was the first time- So fun ... I was able to connect with them- Yeah ... without our kids, and it deepened all of our relationships.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly And when I chart the, my life, my highs and my lows of my life, recovering from my mastectomy was a high point- ... not a low point, which really surprised me.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly Yeah.

Jason And [00:23:00] was it that component then, that deepening of community and relationships and even, sounds like even s- a spiritual deepening for you?

Kelly Oh, yes. Yes, and they say that,when you ask someone a f- for a favor, that friend, that person becomes a clo- they believe the relationship to be deeper. so the more that you rely on each other, and, like, we're so isolated today living in separate homes, it's really... And we can, get grocery delivery, and we can get, hire an Uber.

Kelly We- really, our society makes it so that we need each other less.

Kelly And then in times of crisis, calling on that community, giving the community an opportunity to show up really deepens the relationship.

Jason Yeah. Yeah. someone had told me, I, I think it was yesterday, actually, they had mentioned how if you don't circulate the relationship, [00:24:00] then it can never deepen.

Jason And so, so, like, if you don't ask for things, even if they're small things, then in times of, like, bigger times, like not to be all strategic about it, but it's kinda true that if you've never asked somebody for anything before, and then suddenly, like, something crazy goes down, and I'm like, "Kelly, I need your help," there's a bit more of, like, a...

Jason It's harder to tug that than if maybe we were neighbors and, like, you've borrowed my milk and sugar before, or, you've borrowed, like, a few of, maybe... Or our kids aren't that close in age, but if they were, maybe we would trade toys. Well, I do have a

Kelly four-year-old.

Jason Oh, okay, great. yeah. Yeah, so maybe they swapped toys before, or, like, we've done all of that.

Jason Like, it would've been easier for me to call upon you and ask, like, "Hey," like, "We need some help right now." And I think it's not only because of the small transaction, but it's, like, the flow of that happeningwithout any goal to kinda outdo the other person. It's kinda like if I gave you a gift [00:25:00] of $20, then, like, if you came back with a gift of $25, and then I'd be like, "Oh, man," like, "She gave me 20.

Jason Okay. So now I'm gonna have to find one. Let's do 35, and I'm gonna give you a $35 gift." And y- like, I think that makes it way more transactional than the ones that are, like, more, like, given out of generosity, but not really with an expectation that it's gonna be given back.

Kelly Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yes. I had a lot of, I had a lot of guilt come up during this time, because I just...

Kelly It almost felt gluttonous that people were bringing me food. I was like, "This is too good to be true." Yeah. And like, how can I repay this person? I feel like I'm stacking up a massive list of IOUs that I'll never be able to repay.

Kelly And I had a friend I, who helped coach me through this, and she goes, "Kelly, the way you have shown up for community in the past,

Kelly And the way that you, just by nature of being you, and the way that you [00:26:00] love- sharing and being generous and showing up for people, it's just part of the balance it's a cycle. You receive, you give, and you're in a receiving. Oh, yeah, just the process of being open to receiving, and that's part of what I interpreted with this Devi Master painting.

Kelly She's so open to the sky.

Kelly It's like she's also open to receiving, which was so hard for me to do. His- even historically before I went through this. And, like, when you're recovering from a mastectomy and DIEP flap, you're stuck like this. And so that visual of just, like, opening up the heart-

Jason Wow ...

Kelly to receive-

Jason Yeah

Kelly it was a transformation, and also that I still keep to this day of how to receive gracefully-

Jason ...

Kelly and appreciate it authentically and know that it doesn't have to be transactional. She's with us through the-

Jason Yeah ...

Jason and were you always, like, the, the helper and the giver, like, in your community?

Jason Like, you're really good at giving and being generous to others?

Kelly [00:27:00] I... Some people would say that. Okay. a lot of people would say that. Okay. But I also feel like it depends the time of life and when you have capacity. Sure. So, like, with two small children, you're more in a phase of life that is in the receiving.

Kelly And then once you kinda get out of that, then you can be a giver. And I do, when people, have to place a word for you, I did this experiment, or it was, like, an assignment for some sort of self-help book we were doing. You had to ask 10 people the three words that describe you, and kind was the number one-

Jason word that came up. But I also feel like I, there's some people I haven't been able to show up for as much as I'd like to, just by nature of the season of my life, especially because- Yeah ... my healing journey didn't take just two months, which they say is what the mastectomy takes to recover from. Once I had my hysterectomy, my, and I had complications.

Jason Oh. [00:28:00]

Kelly That recovery is still ongoing today, so it's been two and a half years.

Jason Cool.

Kelly I have been in this very long phase of receiving that has made me uncomfortable .

Jason Yeah.

Kelly But I'm also, becau- as the kind Kelly, I'm getting to the point now where I'm able to start putting the energy back into my community and the people around me that are needing support.

Jason Yeah. Yeah. And the reason why I asked, I think you know what I was getting at, which is, people who are always the helpers struggle the most to receive stuff because they're always, it's almost like the giving gives them value.

Jason Right? And then when you start getting stuff, you're like, "But I'm not that valuable.

Jason Like, why are you giving all this stuff to me?" But it's- Yeah,

Kelly the guilt ...

Jason right.

Kelly Yeah.

Jason Yeah. but I so love that your community told you, like, "Stop that," and just take it. Yeah. Just receive it all.

Kelly That was what one of my healing avatar journal entry, prompts, responses was to rece- be open to receiving 'cause it, the worthiness part was [00:29:00] major.

Jason Yeah. So now that you're, So we talked about the first one-

Kelly Yes ...

Jason which went great for, by all means considered, right? and then so your total hysterectomy, to now, like, c- how did that kind of, I guess how did that path come out?

Kelly Yeah. So I was hoping to do the hysterectomy closer to the age of 40.

Kelly I was like, "I'm just gonna postpone that-

Jason ...

Kelly and not do it within six months of the mastectomy."

Jason Yeah.

Kelly What happened is then I developed a hernia, several hernias, that became very painful. Oh. I couldn't even lift my one-year-old child because it was so painful. And the hernia incisions are the exact same incisions as the hysterectomy and oophorectomy incisions.

Kelly And I had already met my out-of-pocket max for the second year in a row. And from a financial perspective, I was like, "I gotta do this now 'cause next year I don't wanna do it, meet, [00:30:00] have to pay out of pocket for this surgery."

Jason Yeah.

Kelly which was to my detriment that playing a piece in my healing. If I could redo it, like never make health decisions that are this consequential based on the finances.

Kelly I mean, some people have to. They don't have a choice. Yeah. In this situation, I did have a choice, but I made- A ev- yeah, if I could do it again, I would not let finances have played as huge of a role in my decision-making process.

Kelly Yeah.

Jason So then it's more of a stacking of priority,

Kelly right? Yes.

Jason Because when you have health, right?

Jason Health is an obvious one, and then for a lot of people, though, it's kind of like a com- a combination of, like, there's health, there's money, and probably convenience, right? Mm-hmm. and like, when they all kind of say yes, then you're like, wow, it's a home run, right? th- this... it makes total logical sense.

Kelly Yes.

Jason and [00:31:00] so this is an interesting one because it's like, well, all of the logic pointed towards doing it, and was it because you just hadn't had time to fully recover from the first one? or just the timing itself was maybe you're thinking back you would do the hernia first and then take care of the rest later?

Kelly Yeah. I was r- very conflicted on moving forward with the oophorectomy at that time because majority of the doctors in the Western medical complex were like, "You'll be totally fine. Just replace with hormone replacement therapy, HRT."

Kelly If you don't... So the catch-22 with this surgery is if I don't proceed with the surgery, I can develop ovarian cancer, and once ovarian cancer is discovered, it's already stage III, and you have an- Oh

Kelly 80% chance of not surviving-

Jason Wow ...

Kelly from ovarian cancer. So it's the scary cancer.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly Whereas breast cancer, you have an [00:32:00] 80% chance or even 90% chance of surviving if you catch it early enough.

Jason Oh, I see.

Kelly Whereas the ovarian cancer, although I had less of a chance, two members of my family already had ovarian cancer and one passed, or actually just one had ovarian cancer and breast cancer, and she passed away from the ovarian cancer.

Jason So once you find ovarian cancer, it's too late most likely.

Kelly Most like- yeah. Yeah. Highly probable it's too late.

Jason Okay.

Kelly So I, but all of the doctors were like, "Oh, you'll be fine, just take HRT." I had one doctor in particular who was kind of excommunicated from insurance and for giving controversial information.

Kelly He was going off of information that's been tested in Europe- ... that they have not done studies for in America. And he said, "It is, HRT is not apples to apples. There is so much about hormones we do not know, and [00:33:00] things about you will change." "Maybe everything about you will change. You're a business owner.

Kelly You may not wanna run your business anymore. You may, your personality may differ. You may, you're an extrovert now. You may become an introvert." And so he was the only one that raised the red flags. And then when I went on to all of these forums, there's a ton of amazing forums where people have, with BRCA or people who've had hysterectomies, and people's reactions, responses to hormone replacement therapy was pretty mixed.

Kelly Some people, it was the best decision of their lives. They feel better than ever. Their libido's been better than it was pre-surgery. Mm-hmm. And then others were like, "It's... I'm still recovering. I... This is not working for me." Yeah. And so I went into it hoping that I would fall into the category where my life would improve- Yeah

Kelly but not knowing. Yeah. And again, I had a celebration transit. I was not going to have [00:34:00] any version of celebration before this surgery because, again, the person that w- has a hard time receiving, I was like, "Oh, I already had a celebration for my mastectomy. I don't need another one. That's indulgent."

Kelly My friend said, "If you're about to do a surgery that may possibly change your life forever, you deserve to honor it."

Kelly And so we had this hilarious celebration called Over It, like O-V-A-R. And we had, like, hilarious games, like pin the period pad on my silhouette.

Jason Oh.

Kelly Like, and a pink egg toss-

Jason that I had dyed all the eggs hot pink, and we even had a bakery create vulva cupcakes.

Jason Oh, wow.

Kelly So it was just, we re- went into the theme- All out. ... hardcore, and it was so great. And I went into the surgery very optimistic.

Kelly but the way that my body responded to surgical menopause, it just, it did not respond well, to say the least.

Kelly So just [00:35:00] so... I won't give all of the details, 'cause that could last a whole two hours, but, my, I developed... At first, during the recovery, the first two weeks, it felt great. The estrogen made my brain, like synopsises in my brain that had never connected before. Wow. It, like all of... I was so much smarter.

Kelly I could, every problem with my business, I knew how to fix it. Like, I saw the roadmap, and I was so- Wow ... enthusiastic and- Yeah ... so ambitious. I probably hit it... I was bedridden, but I was hitting it har- like, I didn't even wanna take time off.

Kelly And this is, like, the surge of energy that I got from the estro- from estrogen, or the fake estrogen, or- it's bio-identical, but it's not- Yeah ... your estrogen. That's the HRT. Yes.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly I Maybe over committed, and then two weeks in I started not being able to look at my screen. I started getting bad headaches every single [00:36:00] day, and they never resolved. And then I had committed to over 20 productions in October- Whoa ... and this was in September-

Jason Yeah ...

Kelly that I was managing myself, and it's, then I started getting behind because I was not able to look at my computer.

Kelly I had to look away, and the stress, what I didn't realize is estrogen balances your adrenal glands, which adrenal glands manage your stress response.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly And I had over committed during the... And maybe my recovery wouldn't have gotten so bad had I not over committed f- through work, not allowing myself the proper time to recover.

Kelly I had been very antsy and eager to get back probably from this like, new estrogen that I was experiencing.

Kelly My body basically went into fight or flight.

Jason Oh.

Kelly Half, I couldn't, my heart rate started, p- I started, I developed heart palpitations. Half my face went numb for two months. My, I got lockjaw.[00:37:00]

Kelly My left shoulder- Oh ... got stuck towards my ear. I couldn't see a s- I couldn't look at a screen. My vision was blurry, and I had terrible headaches every single day. and then also I couldn't walk straight, and this didn't end once, like I didn't end up going on one of the 20 productions I had in October.

Kelly I had wonderful contractors and team members fill in the gaps for me and run every production, and I ended up in a IV room for three days trying to get in control what was also manifesting as a migraine. So I was on a IV for three days to kind of bring down the pain and-

Jason Yeah ...

Kelly and long story short, the situation didn't resolve, and I saw over the next year 19 health professionals, five neurologists, neurosurgeons to figure out what was going on with my head and my body.

Kelly And then I got into PT to [00:38:00] fix my, like the muscular response, and I, over a year later we realized it was, I developed POTS, postural orthostatic tachycardia.

Jason Oh.

Kelly It's a response-

Jason Yeah ...

Kelly that you have a hard time monitoring your heart rate and your blood pressure when you stand up.

Kelly So these heart rate issues were causing this imbalance, and then what we now know was a migraine.

Kelly I didn't get migraines before the surgery, and I developed this migraine for an en- it did not go away for an entire year And so that was causing my inability to look at the screen.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly I couldn't drive because my depth perception was off. And once we realized it was a migraine, I was better able to get medication for the mi- for the migraine to relieve the pain.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly Yeah.

Jason And as you were like, [00:39:00] 'cause you're still living your life as best you could during that time, like, what kind of lessons did you learn in that?

Kelly What kind of lessons? Okay. I'm still learning the lessons because I have the condition. The condition didn't resolve, but I'm able to manage it now.

Kelly the lessons that I learned was, so I was very attached to my business.

Kelly It was my baby, along with my actual physical babies, and I was not able to run it at all.

Kelly I had to... I didn't have internal team members at the time. I had contractors, and because I couldn't look at a screen, I couldn't look at a phone, I wasn't able to conduct business, and that brought so much grief to me.

Kelly the thing that turned my recovery around was last minute I got into a Vipassana meditation course.

Kelly Ooh. Vipassana meditation- Yeah ... is the form of meditation that Buddha used to [00:40:00] reach enlightenment.

Jason Mm-hmm.

Kelly And they have these cen- Vipassana centers all over the world, and it's a 10-day meditation, meditating 10 hours a day, completely silent.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly And three days into that experience- It was the longest amount of time, or three days into the experience, the headache went away.

Jason Oh.

Kelly And it was the longest amount of time that I had been without pain reliever in over a year. Any form of pain reliever. Like, the headache entirely cleared up, and the migraine, and I was functional. And this is someone who, like, I never took medication prior, and now I was living off of pain medication to just make it through every day.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly And during that Vipassana meditation, I realized I had brought all of these photos of my children for my dorm room take to just reflect on or to keep them [00:41:00] close. I brought zero photos of my productions, of my business

Kelly And during that meditation, I realized how much more my children meant to me than my business.

Kelly And I allowed myself this ego death to say, "My chil- I can always go back to business when I recover from this, if I recover." There was still a big amount of fear that this was my new normal

Kelly I can always go back to business. The scaffolding is there. I can never go back to my children's childhood Yeah So it came from that experience that I was ready to be a more present mom and not split my attention between my children, my recovery, and trying to hobble along my business

Kelly and so when I did come back, and the migraines did not return from that Vipassana meditation-

Jason Wow

Kelly I was just probably the best mom I've ever been

Jason Yeah

Kelly and completely present with them, and also making up for lost time. Yeah 'Cause my, I had a [00:42:00] one-year-old that I couldn't carry, and then I was bedridden for most of it, and they had to live with my parents because just their presence at our house, if two people talked to me at one time, it would trigger a migraine.

Kelly Oh. If I saw leaves on the ground, it would trigger a migraine. It was very, you know-

Jason Yeah ...

Kelly this kind of broken record of how the brain operates with a migraine. There's these pain neural pathways, and it was so... The migraine triggers were so delicate that they had to live with my parents for many months because I couldn't be around them, and that broke my heart.

Jason Yeah. '

Kelly Cause... And when I came back from that Vipassana meditation and the migraine,the neurologists don't necessarily have a explanation for why that happened, but from piecing together my understanding of the brain and somatic therapy, and like one of my somatic dance therapists mentioned, like, well, if you're running a marathon [00:43:00] and you twist an ankle, you can't keep running on that every day or it'll never heal.

Kelly Yeah. You actually have to take the time, take time to break-

Jason Yeah ...

Kelly so that it can heal, and that's what the Vipassana meditation did for my brain.

Jason Yeah, it's like you just rest, finally rested your brain-

Kelly Yeah ...

Jason fully.

Kelly And that's all it took. Yeah. Like I s- I, our society is so overstimulating, just existing in it.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly It, the brain couldn't heal. I had to remove myself.

Jason Yeah. That's incredible. And,for those of you who have heard of, like, the Vipassana retreats, like, they're like, you can get a seven-day one or a 10-day one, and I believe, like, you don't write either, right? it's like it's silent and you get like a little cot, I think.

Jason And I've done some research. I haven't gone yet- Yeah ... but I've done some research. But you get like this one cot, right? And they feed you, and then you meditate for eight hours or four or five hours, and then you have lunch

Kelly Yeah, so ideally you're meditating for 10 hours

Jason 10 hours

Kelly a day ... [00:44:00] three, in one-hour increments.

Kelly Oh, okay And so three of those hours-

Jason Yeah ...

Kelly you're supposed to sit in the meditation hall completely still.

Kelly Like, if you have an itch, don't itch it. Don't scratch it.

Jason Wow.

Kelly Yeah. because that is the meditation of strong determination. Pain is suffering, and if you act on the pain response, you are giving into the suffering.

Kelly And if you acknowledge that the suffering will pass, it does

Jason ...

Kelly eh, with, if given enough time. And that's a great analogy for actually what happened with the, my migraine condition. Wow. I just sat with the pain and I let it pass, and I didn't... There were some dark days during that meditation where I was viscerally in my body, like, "What's wrong with me?

Kelly How..." I'm suffering and, like, making all these excuses why I couldn't sit still, because there are some 80-year-old people in the hall that probably have way worse physical ailments than me [00:45:00] at their age, and they were sitting completely still.

Jason Wow.

Kelly So around day four, I broke that cycle, that narrative, "I'm recovering, I'm sick, I'm...

Kelly This is wrong with me," and I said, I can break this cycle." And from day four, I was able to sit still and upright for the full hour moving forward for the rest of the meditation.

Jason Oh, that's so cool.

Kelly Yeah. And maybe it was that... And I had been telling myself that outside of this experience, but for you to have such something that, like, shakes you awake, that fundamentally changes the way that you see the world, like a Vipassana meditation maybe, or like a peak experience that someone has, maybe that's what I needed to break that loop and also break that pain cycle.

Jason Yeah. Wow.

Kelly Yeah.

Jason Now I'm really considering, like, when to sign up for a Vipassana retreat now.

Kelly Oh, when [00:46:00] you wa- if you wanna... Yes. yes. And, like, a sign. This is, when we're talking about the signs- ... or the universe intervening, the woman that I was sitting next to, I found this out after s- we didn't get to talk to anybody in the course, there was 50 people sitting- until afterwards. The one I had been sitting next to the whole time, she had signed up and had been waiting for seven years to do this Vipassana because it's so full. Really? It was always full. And the fact that I got in just a couple days before the Vipassana started was such, like, a universal intervention.

Kelly Yeah. Like, this is exactly what you need to do.

Jason Yeah, you were just slid right into the pocket.

Kelly Yes. Yeah.

Jason That is amazing.

Kelly Yeah.

Jason Yeah. And so as you're kinda living through living now, right, and a lot of what comes to mind now is, like, you've made some really huge decisions, and now you're in that embodiment of [00:47:00] everything from day to day.

Jason how does that show up in your, in how you approach each day now?

Kelly trying my best to be more present with what I am experiencing in the moment and not getting kind of sucked in to my m- emotional response or my emotional reaction.

Jason One example of this is my migraines went away for eight alm- for eight months exactly, and then we had some very stressful things happen in our life, and the migraine came back.

Jason Mm-hmm.

Kelly And I went kinda downhill for six months where I was getting the migraines every day again, and then I finally found a medication that helps keep it in check.

Kelly Like, occasionally they'll get triggered if my heart rate goes up or the, if I get too hot. Like, if it's in s- Texas in the summer, I have to really be careful.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly so it's something I'm still managing, and it's also [00:48:00] my relationship with my children. Like, I was having a hard time being present with them because, as a mom and a...

Kelly You're juggling so many different territories.

Jason Yeah, your like- I felt- ... your logistics, your project management, and you're also, like, needing to nurture them-

Kelly Yes ...

Jason and shuffle them to the right place at the right time.

Kelly Yes, and then still working. Yeah. Like, while my circus business is still on the back burner, I still run this video production company with my husband.

Kelly Mm-hmm. So I started working a lot more- Yeah ... and leaning back into that work.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly I, children are very energy creating and, like-

Jason And, intensive ...

Kelly intensive. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And I found myself like, "Why? Why is this like this?" "Why can't I, why can't they just be older? Why can't, why is it so hard?"

Kelly And then I just remembered how powerful a shift in perspective is [00:49:00] from what I experienced in the meditation, and I just said, "I am releasing any, this relationship that I have to parenting, that it is so difficult and so hard. I am just releasing that-

Jason ...

Kelly narrative, and I'm gonna be present with whatever I am experiencing in that parenting moment."

Kelly And since then, it's been a lot... I've been so much more present, and when there is a tantrum happening, I can appreciate it for this is fleeting.

Kelly So-

Jason Yeah ...

Kelly it won't always be like this, and knowing that can help me have more presence in that moment-

Jason Yeah ...

Kelly and appreciation for that moment, even if that specific moment isn't necessarily fun.

Jason That's very well said. Yeah. I would just say "Oh, they're being little shits right now." "But I still love them, and we're gonna, we're gonna be here."

Jason that, I feel that a lot. I- have you, had you considered going back for [00:50:00] another Vipassana?

Kelly Oh, I did. Yes. Yeah. I went, and when my migraines started back-

Jason Yeah ...

Kelly I was like, "Well, I gotta get in for the Vipassana."

Jason Yeah,

Kelly like- Like, that's what's gonna heal it ... was

Jason it able to support?

Kelly It was not. Actually- Oh ... this was a- Huh

Kelly another very helpful moment. So I got in as a server, which is someone that helps, because the, it was completely full for sitters. I got in at the day it started as a server, where you're making food for all of the meditators, and I thought it was gonna be a very calming experience. You just make food, and then you meditate.

Kelly But I walked into a kitchen that was more like Top Chef. Oh. Like, "Wait, the meditators are coming now. go. We gotta get them here. move." Within 30 minutes- Whoa ... I had migraine auras starting- Oh ... and then I had auras every single day for that meditation. And what I learned in that process, and while I was still taking rescue medication to make it through, that I was able to move through this [00:51:00] lens of being disabled when I have a migraine to how I can actually function in the midst of having a migraine.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly So it pushed my edge of what I felt capable of doing.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly And how f- how quickly I can bounce back from a migraine that used to take me out for two weeks, now it may only take me out for 30 minutes.

Kelly And for the next two weeks after that, I may be a little kinda discombobulated, but I'm still functional.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly Whereas historically I would be bedridden for two weeks.

Jason Wow.

Kelly So that, that experience, while it didn't close the migraine circuit the way it did the first time because of the intensity-

Jason Yeah ...

Kelly it taught me a great deal.

Jason Yeah. Yeah. So if you want the peaceful side, you do not go as a server.

Kelly Like- No. No

Kelly yeah. But it was so fun. even- Yeah ... and I, and to say that I was having a blast even though I was having a migraine experience every day-

Jason Yeah ...

Kelly like, it changed that [00:52:00] narrative as well.

Jason Yeah. there's that, that you can be both, right? Mm-hmm. Like, you can be in pain, even while feeling joy.

Jason And it's- it's inspiring to hear that.

Kelly Yeah.

Jason Yeah. Yeah, well, is there, we've kind of went through a lot already, and, I'd love to keep you here even longer, but we only have a certain amount of time. and what I'd love to do is, like, how can the listeners, like, find you, learn more about you?

Kelly Wow, That's a great question, because I wa- used to be very active on social media and online, and since I took that hiatus from the internet, I haven't felt a need or desire to go back to social media. But-

Jason Oh,

Kelly okay ... our video production, one version of our video production company exists as a film studio, so that's Storyhouse Studio.

Kelly on Instagram, it's storyhouse_studio. [00:53:00]

Jason Yeah, and it's out here in Austin.

Kelly Yes, Austin, Texas. Right. Come and visit us.

Jason Yeah. It's super cool, too. Like, I had a chance... Havie showed me the pictures.

Kelly Yeah.

Jason And it's so cool how you somehow have four different corners of the room, but when you look at it, it actually fits together.

Kelly Yeah. It- It's one space- It's pretty incredible ... and with, there's 11 looks-

Jason Yeah ...

Kelly that you can do. and yeah, we host podcasts, so next time you're in town, you're also welcome to- Awesome ... come podcast there.

Jason Yeah, so definitely check them out when you're in Austin. All right. Well, other than that then, thanks so much, Kelly.

Jason It was really wonderful to have you here.

Kelly Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This was a blast, and the first time I've shared my story, so thanks for being with me as I

Jason yeah ...

Kelly fi- figured it out, and figured out what my, how I am re- reacting to it at this point in my recovery journey.

Jason Yeah.

Kelly Thank you.

Jason I'm honored.