The Real Reason Good Men Struggle With Limits with Dr. Kelly Flanagan

Speaker [00:00:00] Welcome to the Modern Masculinity Podcast, where we delve into the depths of what it means to be a man in today's world, and we explore the real-life challenges and triumphs that you and I face every single day. My name is Hector Santiesteban, and I come with no answers, only questions for some of the most wise, insightful, and grounded men that I know.

Speaker So get settled in. You're listening to Modern Masculinity

Hector Fellas, what's going on? I hope this episode finds you well, and I hope this episode leaves you better than when it found you. Today's episode is with Dr. Kelly Flanagan, and he is a former guest of the show, friend of the show, and, I believe one of our first episodes that we ever recorded, so go back and look at, He's in the first 10 episodes, I believe is when it came out. today's episode centers around his new book that is coming out. It's called "The Road Less Triggered," and, it's exactly about [00:01:00] that. I know that, it's such a, part of being able to navigate myself, my life emotions, and not,blow off the rails or not be impacted by the things that are going on around me, right?

Hector Whether it's from, things at home, things out in the world. It's a, it's such a needed conversation for this time, and so I'm excited to bring you another fantastic conversation with Dr. Kelly Flanagan

Hector Dr. Kelly, it is an honor and a pleasure to have you back on the Modern Masculinity Podcast.

Dr. Kelly It is an honor to be back. I- I'm grateful to be here, man.

Hector Take us into the, your world. You are not doing much these days. You just have a book that's coming out. You've got a family going on. You've got a practice. You've got a, an online community. you're a husband, you're a father,

Hector So there's many a role that you're playing. What sort of stuff,comes up today or what sort of, I call it the muck, what are you still mucking through today as a

Dr. Kelly man? Oh, man. I'd say one of the big sources of muck in our family right now is that we have a, an 18-year-old [00:02:00] son, who is on the verge of graduating high school.

Dr. Kelly He's about to launch i- into college. our oldest is 22, living in Chicago, supporting himself with a full-time job at Trader Joe's and chasing his dream of becoming a professional comedian. but I would say right now,probably the sort of grief of launching number two is most salient in our home right now.

Dr. Kelly And, so I, I realize that, that my, my typical schedule is not working out with the stage of our life. Like, I need to wake up about an hour earlier, get my exercise in so that I can be in the kitchen when he's about to walk out the door for high school, and so that I'm not exercising at night when he's actually around and I can connect with him 'cause it's all precious right now.

Dr. Kelly It's incredibly precious, right? so I'm now waking up a little before 5:00 AM. And the first muck of the day was my wife hating me for that, for waking her up that early. She's "We're sleeping in tomorrow." and, but she gets it. She gets why I'm doing it. and, and gosh, I woke up [00:03:00] early, got in the workout, got in the kitchen, had some good banter with him.

Dr. Kelly His name's Quinn. and, we were talking about, we were talking about our NBA fantasy league that we do together, and my daughter, who's 16, just dropped a gem. She go- she goes, "You know how I know you're talking about the NBA? 'Cause no one has normal names. You never hear of a Ted Johnson in the NBA."

Dr. Kelly And I was like, that's pretty good. That's solid material there, sweetie." so that's how my, that's how my day started. Yeah. And I've had a couple coaching clients. I coach, high-achieving entrepreneurs who wanna make their relationships as successful as their businesses. I had a book fulfillment call for my upcoming book launch, and,did a lot of preparation for our first launch team meeting tonight, of 30, 40 people who really wanna help this book get out there.

Dr. Kelly There's a lot of balls in the air, and, you drop some and try not to beat yourself up for it and keep going.

Hector Yeah, what's interesting, as you were saying that, I had this moment, the other day where my kids were just going back and forth and they just bicker about, who has the [00:04:00] toothpaste and who's going in the car first, and if there's like anything to create conflict.

Hector And like there was this moment where I was like, "Oh, "I'm only getting triggered now 'cause they're young," sort of thing. And I was like, "Oh, the, these things don't really change." the challenge, it's not like the challenges go away. We evolve and morph along with the kids.

Hector But it's just a, it's a great reminder for me that like, it's not that, that is ever gonna, that challenge will ever be, gone completely. and so I think like for me, there's a little bit more of an appreciation for those moments 'cause it's like, they're gonna be here. Why don't we make the most out of them?

Dr. Kelly it's that constant tension of you know you're gonna miss it when it's gone, right? But when it's here, it is absolutely triggering, and the head knowledge sometimes that you're gonna miss it when it's gone doesn't necessarily override the body reaction of, "I wish this would stop right now."

Dr. Kelly and so yeah, I think as dads and as men, we live in that tension,

Hector it's interesting that you say that, VA. I find myself like almost getting, like [00:05:00] judging myself, right? Like having this head knowledge you talked about, like creates this sort of judgment and I'm in this loop where I'm judging myself for the, negative behavior that I'm judging myself for, right?

Hector and I... And it's an interesting experience 'cause for me, early on in my journey, I could read myself or personal development myself, out of something. And I find that as of recently, reading another book or listening to a new sort of... It's n- it's not about the newness, it's...

Hector right? It's about getting myself to do actually what I know, and that's been its own sort of beast and challenge of itself.

Dr. Kelly It's tough, man.your mind, is a judging machine. All of our minds are judging machines, right? We're constantly judging. and so to, to try to get the mind...

Dr. Kelly So the mind starts judging, and then the mind judges itself for judging, and then we read a book that appeals to our minds about how to quit judging, but we've just fueled the mind with more ideas, so it's ready to keep judging. and [00:06:00] so at some point we have to get out of that loop we get stuck in with our mind, trying to solve the mind with the mind, so to speak.

Dr. Kelly Was it Einstein who said you can't solve a problem with the same consciousness that created it, right? you can't solve your judgment problem by judging it. And,that's a big part of my story is starting to find other ways to,to get through those triggered moments.

Hector Yeah. I think when we...

Hector I talked about it in the intro, but go back and listen to the first episode with, Dr. Kote.

Hector And because it really gave a great framework. He gave a great framework to understanding, our emotions and our psyche and how we're sort of, you know, a lot of the defenses that we're putting up. but to your point, that understanding and that knowledge is only a part of the battle you actually have to go into the battle and deal with it there.

Hector And it seems like that's been where you picked up or that's been the second part of your journey. I'd love to hear about that evolution and how, you know, you got from the very sort of head space,understanding of it to [00:07:00] now really working through sort of these,I call it the embodiment of the same sort of thing.

Dr. Kelly Yeah, exactly. Yeah, when we first talked, I talked I, I, I I feel like I, had arrived at an awareness of all of this stuff and, the hoped for freedom from it didn't come with the awareness, which was a little disturbing. I, in particular, came to the year of COVID.

Dr. Kelly Like that year, man, it wrecked me. completely independent of COVID, I started off that year,I, I blew up my business partnership with my best friend, blew up the friendship. COVID hit. Kids were, schooling from home. I call them zoombies. They were just like getting caught in the screen's,black hole.

Dr. Kelly I was getting triggered left and right. my business was, we... mental- outpatient mental health practice, so there's questions about whether or not it's gonna be financially viable if people can't s- you know, meet in person. So all sorts of stress. And, and one afternoon, my wife, she'd been trying to convince me for years to get an above ground pool, and she [00:08:00] finally had the leverage, she was looking for.

Dr. Kelly She's "All the pools, all the public pools are closing for the summer. We gotta put in that pool finally." So I was like, "All right." So agreed to it. Sunday morning she goes out, the pool's just been installed. She hangs the hose over the side, puts a rock on it to fill it up. the rock wasn't heavy enough, and we didn't go back out for a few hours.

Dr. Kelly and I go back out and the pool's bone dry, but our backyard is like a lake, right? And I know. And I like, I got triggered and I, and to the point where I'm like, "If I don't leave, if I don't leave right now, I'm gonna say and do something that I regret for a really long time," right? So I, well, what am I gonna do?

Dr. Kelly So I'll get all this anger out on a bike ride. So I hop on my bike, and cycling at 35 miles an hour on asphalt when you're angry and not paying very careful attention isn't the wisest thing to do. and I ended up had to pump the brakes to miss a car. I went over the handlebars and I broke my left collarbone in, in two places.

Dr. Kelly and they th- [00:09:00] they say that bones heal stronger in the broken places, but this, it's like they call them, I think fibrous tissue non-union fractures. But basically I got two hinges in this left collarbone now. and, it, it made for a really long and painful recovery. So I got to New Year's Eve going into 2021, and I was out of shape and I was like, I was literally in the middle of scrolling through the internet for various fitness plans, and I came across Michael Singer's quote from "The Untethered Soul", w- in which he says, "Do not let anything in life be important enough that you're willing to close your heart over it."

Dr. Kelly and like that quote in that moment, it hit me harder than an as- that asphalt road did. I was like, "Okay, that's what's going on here." Like, I'm in this situation 'cause my heart keeps-- I keep getting triggered, my heart closes. I go into protection mode instead of connection mode, right? And I don't know how to stay present and in connection mode in these critical moments.

Dr. Kelly [00:10:00] So I made a New Year's resolution going into 2021. Moment to moment, I will notice my heart closing and try to open it back up. and you know they say most New Year's resolutions are done by the third week of January. it literally has become my life discipline and, learning the art of keeping your heart open when it's trying to close and it's about to basically sabotage your connection and your wisdom, and your communication in a moment, has become what I've really dedicated my life to over the last five years.

Dr. Kelly and has become really the topic of the next book that, that I'm sharing with the world. So that was a pivotal moment for me, to realize, oh yeah, like this is what I need to focus on. Not my physical health, but my internal health.

Hector where do you deploy that, whether it's in your parenting or in your relationships or with your patients? Like, how do you see you actually using

Dr. Kelly that? Yeah, that's a great question. I like that way of [00:11:00] phrasing it. Where do you deploy it? so what happened after I decided that's what I wanted to do was I went to, "Untethered Soul," right?

Dr. Kelly And I devoured the book again to be like, "Okay, if it's the most important thing to do, then what do yous have to say, Michael Singer, about keeping your heart open?" But in the book, he just says over and over again, "You just need to relax and release." And that wasn't doing it for me. I-- Again, that was like a heady thing that I couldn't translate into, to action.

Dr. Kelly and I, in fact, I know a few guys who-- like three different guys who traveled all the way down to his ashram in Florida and said, "Mickey, how do you keep your heart open?" And he looked them each dead in the eye and said, "You just do it." It's like he just, he's like he's a savant. He doesn't know how to teach the rest of us, remedial math or something.

Dr. Kelly so I realized if there was going to be a curriculum for open-heartedness, sort of a method for managing your triggers, I was gonna have to create it. and the first step in the process that I've created, which I call a peaceful pivot process, is sensing your conflict coming, by using your body awareness to get an [00:12:00] 80% earlier warning that your heart's about to close and you're about to be triggered, and you're about to start doing all sorts of things you're gonna regret tomorrow, right?

Dr. Kelly so the answer is you deploy it Whenever your body tells you that your heart's about to start closing. and that can be with your kids, it can be with, your spouse, it can be with the barista at the coffee shop, right? when they get your order wrong. It can be whenever your body sends you the signal that you're starting to ever so slightly shift into fight or flight.

Dr. Kelly and that happens somewhere between your waist and your temples, basically. That's what I've learned. no one has ever said, "My heart closed and my toes cramped." it's waist to temples, right? It's the churning in the gut, thickness under the sternum, tightness in the chest, shoulders, clenched jaw, throbbing temples.

Dr. Kelly it's waist to temples is where your body will send you the signal that your heart's about to close. [00:13:00] and, and so yeah. So for me, the practice is utilizing that body awareness to deploy the rest of the skills I've learned over the course of the last five years to make sure this goes differently.

Hector I'm thinking and I'm hoping that more and more guys are coming into sort of a, what I would call like a somatic awareness, right? Where they're getting out of their head and into their body. if you were to tell a guy it happens between your waist and your temples.

Hector For me, I hear that and I'm like, "Oh, that makes sense." Do you think we're at the point where guys are, enough guys are doing the, what I think is like the groundwork to be able to even have that awareness, right? I think there's, whether that's meditation or whether that's the, I don't know, whatever, breathwork or,cold plunges or whatever to where there, there's

Hector enough,

Hector intent like guys even have a skill, are skillful with regards to this. Do you think we're there yet?

Dr. Kelly I don't know what there will look like, right? I [00:14:00] do think there's like a tidal shift, like just in humanity in general toward recognizing that somatic awareness, and taking responsibility for our nervous system reaction is pretty much fundamental to human wellbeing, right?

Dr. Kelly It's fundamental to how we show up emotionally, spiritually, relationally, behaviorally, that it all starts with that. this peaceful pivot process that I talk about in the book,it really is... it's an unlock because when we are triggered and our body activates, your nervous system when it's activating is designed to deal with threats out there, right?

Dr. Kelly So the impulse, if you don't check it, is to immediately start to try to solve problems, or protect yourself against things out there. This process actually asks you to pause and to calm yourself before you connect yourself. I cannot think [00:15:00] of a situation beyond existential threats, right? Your kid's about to step into the road, s- footsteps in the parking garage behind you at midnight.

Dr. Kelly like existential, like mortal threats. I can't think of a situation beyond those in which, it isn't important to calm yourself before you connect yourself, in which you won't show up better if your nervous system is regulated, right? and so I d- I... That is key. I think we are coming to that consciousness as human beings.

Dr. Kelly I think m- growth-oriented, high-achieving men in particular are starting to realize that. But I see it even, the Gottmans, the big marital researchers and authors. for years they've been preaching communications skills will heal your relationships. And finally, in their most recent book, they said, "Well, but you have to be regulated in order to access those communication skills," right?

Dr. Kelly Even-

Hector I feel like that's a pretty big prerequisite.

Dr. Kelly It is huge, but we've been oblivious to it, right? and part [00:16:00] of that is the whole mind over matter thing, right? if I just get it intellectually, if I just listen to enough podcasts, and if I just understand the concepts and have the tools, then I'll be able to implement them.

Dr. Kelly And the reality is, when your nervous system is hijacking your body, your mi- you can't engage in mind over matter because the entire system is literally designed to shut down your mind at that moment, right? if you're confronted by the proverbial tig- tiger on the Serengeti and your nervous system fires off, it doesn't want you going, but really how bi- how dangerous is this tiger?

Dr. Kelly Or is this... Am I just feeling danger because this is like a tiger when I was k- a kid?" It doesn't want you thinking, right? So there's no such thing as mind over matter. there's awareness that creates a long enough pause that you can disrupt your defensive behaviors and start to take ownership for regulating your nervous system, and that's it.

Dr. Kelly And until that nervous system is regulated, you're not fit for [00:17:00] duty when it comes to communication and relationships and everything else.

Hector What is the, the step that you prescribe at this moment, when people start to recognize that they're getting upset?

Dr. Kelly I call it the pause you take, the powerful pause to sense your conflict coming, to draw upon your sixth sense, which is interoception, the ability to scan the body and to create that pause.

Dr. Kelly So there's some really good data, and I share it in the book, that says if you wait on your thoughts, or your behaviors, versus actually tuning into your body will tell you 80% sooner that your heart's about to close and you're about to choose conflict over connection. so that's the pause.

Dr. Kelly It's just an 80% greater space to go, "I'm about to choose to let this go further than it's going right now. I'm about to choose to let my nervous system get more d- dysregulated. Can I choose to engage in a powerful pause that regulates the nervous system instead?"

Hector And then what do you recommend guys do once they have that [00:18:00] awareness?

Dr. Kelly Yeah. Yeah. I'll tell you what we will all do, myself included, and what we're tempted to do. once that nervous system is regulated, you will be tempted to jump right back into the relationship, into the situation, and into connection. that's just the temptation. as I was learning the full process, I probably spent about a year.

Dr. Kelly I'd get myself regulated, and then I'd get... ju- jump right back into the conversation. And sometimes then I would stay regulated for a little while, but what you discover is you end up getting re-triggered again almost right away. And so you get stuck in this closed loop of triggered, regulated, triggered, regulated.

Dr. Kelly and so I needed to add this additional, phase to the process where once I get regulated, I spend some time Taking ownership for and working through the emotional [00:19:00] content that was getting triggered underneath that triggered moment for me. I don't just jump right back into relationship. I go, "What was I starting to feel in here?

Dr. Kelly What were the emotions? What were the emotional experiences that I was actually reacting to?" so I took it in the direction of, I'm just gonna assume I'm never actually reacting to a person out there. I'm reacting to whatever emotion I feel when I'm with that person and when that thing happens.

Dr. Kelly in scientific terms, it's called an intervening variable, and the idea is that, there's usually a variable that explains the relationship between two other variables, right? if, for instance, you go for a run and you feel better, you think going for a run made you feel better, right? But it didn't.

Dr. Kelly Going for a run triggered the release of endorphins and dopamine, which made you feel better. the endorphins and dopamine are the intervening variable. Or you get a good night's sleep so you perform better on a test, right? So you think it's sleep that made you perform better on the test. [00:20:00] we know that's not true 'cause if you'd have continued sleeping, you wouldn't have gone to the test and you'd have failed it.

Dr. Kelly Sleep produces more concentration, which produces better test scores, so sleep is the intervening variable. The reality is, say my wife does something and I start to react in a triggered way, right? And you c- and what the brain does is it goes, "Oh, my wife caused me... She triggered that reaction." She didn't.

Dr. Kelly The intervening variable is whatever pain point started to rise up in me in the midst of that moment. I am now reacting to that pain point and trying to stop it, prevent it, and protect it. And, and so what I ask guys to do is just to take that extra step. Once you're regulated, don't jump right back into relationship.

Dr. Kelly Review what was happening inside of you before you do that.

Hector Yeah. It's interesting you bring that up. I remember as my sort of marriage was falling apart, I was... I did all these things to try and, fix the relationship or, fix externally when... it was, it was-- [00:21:00] would've been like, "Hey, dude, just, regulate and, fix yourself.

Hector work on yourself." And I don't know if things would've necessarily changed anything, But it was just an interesting... As I was going through my Audible library, it was just a very interesting observation to see, oh, you, Michael Singer came much later in the journey, right?

Hector and I think that's a-- it's helpful to know that, I'm not alone in, in that sort of regard, right? That we look to fix these external sort of things, not realizing that, a panacea or a, maybe a better general

Dr. Kelly solution is just, like you said, regulating ourselves. Oh, man. It's such a good point. we had, This past summer, we were in the middle of a heat wave here in, in the northern Midwest, and,our furnace went out. it just, it wasn't working. It would, endlessly cycle. It'd start to kick on, and then it would go off.

Dr. Kelly There was something wrong with the circuit board. And I often use this as an example of the mistake we make in relationships. The thing we do in relationships, if the circuit board isn't working inside of [00:22:00] us, right? It's misfiring. What we do in relationships is we go, "How can I make it cooler outside so it doesn't get so hot in the house?"

Dr. Kelly And we... it's absurd when you think about it in a relational, in a weather context, but we do it all the time in relationships. And so what I try to, encourage people is that your people are the weather, right? Their thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are the weather. You have absolutely no control over those things.

Dr. Kelly Why not go but to the circuit board, figure out why it's misfiring, get it working properly so that the temperature in here can stay regulated. And then all of a sudden, there's not such a need to change the weather, right? and so you're exactly right to point that out, that the urge is to change what's happening out there to make it feel better in here.

Dr. Kelly And that's just, a wildly inefficient way to make it feel better in here 'cause I don't know about you, but, like, when I tell my wife, "Stop doing that so I feel better," it doesn't usually work.

Hector that's the truth. fix- trying to fix somebody else, doesn't seem [00:23:00] like a very, effective solution.

Hector What other frameworks emerged from you or, principles even have emerged from you over the last little bit? and as you've wrote this book, people can actually go back and see the book being written, in public, if you will. are there any favorites or any, things that you think, have really, I think are foundational to this, these things, philosophies and principles that you're putting into this new book?

Dr. Kelly Yes. Yeah, it's a great question. I did make a conscious effort this time, to, like you said, write this book in public. I shifted my platform to Substack at first so that the actual writing of it would be in public. and then at one point it made sense to start to do the writing itself in private once I had a book contract.

Dr. Kelly but I was constantly testing the ideas, in front of keynote audiences. my online community on Substack, The Less Triggered Tribe, I was meeting with them [00:24:00] monthly. they were the first, test cases. I would present the content from one of the steps of the process to them, and I would get their feedback, and they'd tell me what was working and what was not.

Dr. Kelly I think right away the, The thing that caught me off guard the most and that was most important for me to hear, and it didn't-- I was in Costa Rica speaking to a group of entrepreneurial women, and I was presenting. I was excited. I was presenting this idea of open-heartedness and how powerful it can be turning our triggers into togetherness.

Dr. Kelly And the first reaction from them was like, "Open-heartedness? I don't think I wanna tell everybody everything." And, and then I come home and I present it to my online tribe, and they're like, "Open-heartedness? I don't think I wanna be a doormat." and I realized early on that when people initially hear the term open-heartedness, they hear a lack of boundaries.

Dr. Kelly They hear a lack of boundaries about what comes out of them, a lack of [00:25:00] boundaries about what gets into them, with how much they have to take. so I realized really early on it was important to, to clarify that, an open heart doesn't make you weaker, it makes you wiser. and that an open heart and boundaries don't just go together, but it's essential that they go together.

Dr. Kelly because if you set boundaries with a closed heart, you're cueing battles. and, but if you set boundaries with an open heart, you're inviting belonging, you're inviting collaboration. So this idea that boundaries can coexist with an open heart is really essential to the point where it's the first step in the third part of the process of getting reconnected with an open heart is set boundaries.

Dr. Kelly Express what you want. Escalate it to a need if you need to, and then finally, set a boundary if you have to. But, this idea that an open heart is the fuel for healthy boundaries rather than a foil, to healthy boundaries is really important.

Hector Yeah, that makes sense for guys because I think [00:26:00] that there's the sort of the classic trope of the guy, and I'm one of them, the guy that got stepped all over and was taken advantage of, and now, he's either the womanizer or the, this every woman is the same thing.

Hector And I think that happens because the guy is not not coming back into re-engaging in relationship with healthy boundaries. It's either they're all the walls are up, which is from our first conversation, or there's, or there's no walls and they self-isolate, which I think we can talk about, but they're walled.

Dr. Kelly We've really confused strength with the state of our heart, right? We think that if we're open-hearted, that's weak, and if we're closed-hearted, that's strong. but that has nothing to do with strength. the strongest thing you can do is hold your boundaries and keep your heart open, right?

Dr. Kelly it doesn't take a ton of strength to set boundaries with a closed heart. That's there, there's a, that's fun, the aggression of that, right? As you pointed [00:27:00] out with some men dominating women, the dominance of that is sort of euphoric. But there's actual like strong inner work happening when you are practicing holding your boundary while keeping your heart open to the other person.

Dr. Kelly to me, that's true strength as a man.

Hector What do you think allows that to take hold, right? Maybe it is just a perspective shift, but I think that you mentioned that women have this false idea of what open-heartedness. I'd imagine that guys come at it from a similar but different, different perspective.

Hector how do you help them to actually,ho- hold the correct idea in their head and go out and execute it in some sort of practical way?

Dr. Kelly Yeah. I think a really practical tool is,if everybody can picture with me, imagine an arrow on a horizontal dimension, right?

Dr. Kelly And, the right side of that arrow is the boundaried side of the dimension, and the left side of the arrow is the unboundaried side of the dimension. And most of [00:28:00] the time when we're in our heads, we're just debating, do I set a boundary or do-- don't I? How-- Where do I end up on this dimension of this outer action, this behavior?

Dr. Kelly and we never even consider the inner condition in which we are setting that boundary. So now you've got your horizontal axis, unboundaried to boundaried. Now put a vertical axis over it, right? and that vertical axis is from open-hearted at the top to closed-hearted at the bottom. And now you've got something you can be curious about.

Dr. Kelly What would it look like to set this boundary with an open heart versus a closed heart? What would it look like to not set the boundary with an open heart versus a closed heart? And what you really start to discover is that, You want to play more in the top part of that quadrant, right? Okay, I'm gonna try to keep my heart open.

Dr. Kelly What would it look like to stay silent and keep my heart open? What would it look like to set a boundary and keep my heart [00:29:00] open? I don't think I can keep my heart open if I stay silent. Okay, then I'm gonna have to set a boundary. and so you can start to play with those distinctions. Classic example I always give is back when I was an outpatient mental health therapist, I would,clients would miss a session, and when you miss a session in that space, then you have to pay for the whole session.

Dr. Kelly The insurance company won't pay for it. So they would come to the next session, and I'd present them with an invoice for the whole bill, and they would say,"Wow, you must be really angry at me if you're charging me for the whole session." And I would say, "No, I'm charging you so that I don't get angry at you."

Dr. Kelly I'm setting a boundary so I can keep my heart open. and that becomes the decision point. Can I keep my heart open without setting a boundary? No. then I'm gonna have to set one, right? And that actually allows us to stay in that connective space of having an open heart with somebody. The boundaries actually enable us to stay connected, ironically.

Hector Yeah. What a great, a great shift in that a lot of people are only dealing with one of those axes, or they're [00:30:00] not putting them together and thinking that it's either one or the other. and so now you can feel, or at least like for me, I'm like, oh, I can feel better about Knowing that it's, like I said, allows me to stay in this place of

Dr. Kelly open heart I-- the first time this really, landed for me in a practical way, I...

Dr. Kelly We were hosting my wife's family, and my seven-year-old nephew was-- We were having a good time playing throughout the week, but I was starting to get a little-- I'm introverted, and I was starting to get a little bit drained with, the family in town. I was like, one morning, I'm like, "You know what? I'm gonna wake up early before everybody.

Dr. Kelly I'm gonna get some introvert time in. I'm gonna get my exercise time in. It's gonna be great." sure enough, he rolls into the exercise room at 4:30 in the morning . He's "Uncle Kelly, you wanna play?" And, so I set a boundary, right? "No, buddy, I'm working out right now. I'll play with you later."

Dr. Kelly he goes into this dramatic woe is me. Like he starts playing ping pong on his own, hitting the ball to nobody and then [00:31:00] slinking over. just like dude put it on a real guilt trip on me, right? And it starts to work, right? And I start to feel like, I'm gonna have to play with him.

Dr. Kelly But at the same time, I'm starting to resent him for it. so now I'm letting go of my boundary and my heart's closing, and this is not a good s- good solution. So he comes over to me. He's "Uncle Kelly, you wanna play now?" And I'm like, "No, dude, I'm working out." Okay, great. So now I'm setting a boundary and my heart is closed, right?

Dr. Kelly I go over to my phone. My wife's still sleeping, but I text her anyway, "Come get your nephew from the basement." I'm Mr. Boundary and Mr. Close-Hearted. And I'm in the middle, literally in the middle. I'm listening to a Ram Dass, teaching in the middle of this. and he basically says,he quotes, I think it was Kabir, who says, "Do what you do with another human being, but never put them out of your heart."

Dr. Kelly And in that moment it like clicks for me, set your boundary with your nephew, but you don't have to close your heart to him in the process, right? and when I opened my heart in that [00:32:00] moment with my boundary, what I realized is like I'm becoming a part of his wound right now, right? Like that wound we all experienced as kids.

Dr. Kelly Like you, you think we're all just here to hang out and play together, and then there's, all of a sudden it gets really lonely and you feel really separate from people and it doesn't feel very good. and I'm like, in that moment I'm like, "Okay, so I'm becoming a part of his pain of separation.

Dr. Kelly It's not my job to absolve him of that in this moment. He's gonna experience it somewhere. but I can be open-hearted to him in the moment." So I went over to him, I got down on my knees and I said, "Hey dude, I love you. I think you're awesome. and I know it probably hurts right now, for me to say no to you.

Dr. Kelly but I'm looking forward to playing with you later even though I'm not gonna play with you right now." And he like just threw his arms around me in this big hug, and I think it's 'cause he felt separate but not severed, right? My closed heart was what was severing him from me. The boundary separates [00:33:00] us.

Dr. Kelly and so in that moment we were not necessarily severed, but we were separate. And he was cool then. He was chill for the rest of the morning, right? and so I feel very strongly about how essential keeping an open heart is to setting a healthy boundary, 'cause if not, we're gonna set it with a closed heart, and you're gonna set it up for unnecessary pain and suffering for everybody involved.

Hector Yeah. What a great just,example that it's the same dec- decision and, and like you said, it's just a, I don't know if it's a different intention, it's a different mindset, it's a different feeling tone more than anything and, it changes everything.

Dr. Kelly That's right. Yep. You're showing up with a different energy, a different inner condition, and everybody around you will be able to experience that. So you're actually creating a space where your boundary can be received even more easily than if your heart's closing around it

Hector Are there any other, frameworks or ideas that are resonating with [00:34:00] people or indexing more people that you thought they would throughout this journey?

Dr. Kelly Like in the context of this? Yeah. Oh, man. how much-

Hector well, 'cause I think one, one thing that you've done a really good job, and just to give you some more time to, to think is, the first episode was great in giving,naming things and creating i-ideas and frameworks around otherwise nebulous and hard to pin down ideas.

Hector and it's it's very actionable in its understanding And so are there similar things, in this book that you found are helping people in that sort of

Dr. Kelly way? Yeah, I'd say this book is actually much more practical and actionable than the last book. the peaceful pivot process has three parts: get calm, get free, then get connected, right?

Dr. Kelly Get calm, as we talked about, regulate your nervous system. Get free from the emotional patterns that are underpinning that, and then get connected. and so the... I can take you through it if you want. [00:35:00] yeah, let's do it. So the, in, in part one, getting calm, the first step is using your, your interoception to get an 80% earlier warning that you're about to get triggered.

Dr. Kelly If you're already triggered and you're off to the races, we all know, like it's gonna take, it's gonna take some time. so for instance, in that part of the book, I walk people through what I call the name your number exercise. When your heart is at a 10 and your heart is completely open, what does it feel like in your body?

Dr. Kelly What are the thoughts you tend to think? What are the feelings you tend to have? What are the behaviors you tend to engage in? When it's at a one and it's totally closed, what does that look like, feel like in your body and in your thoughts and in your behaviors, right? okay. And then let's come up with a sort of a, an understanding of what it looks like at each of those numbers in between.

Dr. Kelly And what you discover, and in fact, people who order the book, they'll be able to download something I call the see it sooner self-inventory. It's basically like a worksheet that helps people start to track, what it feels like inside of [00:36:00] them at these various stages of open heart versus closed heart.

Dr. Kelly And as you start to bring awareness to this, it's wild how quickly you get the hang of it. You'll be in a conversation with somebody and you'll have the thought like, "Oh, geez, I just dropped from like a nine to a five. I better pay attention to what's going on here 'cause this will go off the rails if I don't start to do something different."

Dr. Kelly So that's an example of how practical it gets at that very first step of getting calm. Step two is disrupting your defensiveness using that little bit of extra space that you have developed for yourself with your body awareness to notice your urge to act and to disrupt that urge, right? The idea being that you don't disrupt your defenses by getting rid of them.

Dr. Kelly You disrupt your defenses by doing nothing with them. You will always have a defensive urge. Don't try to like, become so spiritually mature that you don't have defensive urges, right? spiritual maturity in this regard is about [00:37:00] being able to watch your urges rather than wielding your urges, okay?

Dr. Kelly So you wanna hide, you wanna run, you wanna distance, you want to attack, you wanna fight, you wanna debate, you wanna control, you wanna fix all the things. You will always wanna do those things when your nervous system gets triggered Watch them instead of wielding them. Keep the pause going. Okay, I use my body to notice it coming.

Dr. Kelly Now I'm using my awareness to not act on those urges. Now I've created some space where I can cultivate calmness before connectedness. and we all have, I recommend one very specific exercise, but we all have various exercises that we can do that are more or less effective at grounding us in the moment, right?

Dr. Kelly you have to teach your nervous system when it's triggered that you're not about to be annihilated. That's basically what regulation exercises are doing, right? So you work with your nervous system, your breathing, your visualization to do that. so there. Now you've got your first three steps.

Dr. Kelly You're calm, okay? Now the next part of the process [00:38:00] is about getting free of the emotional experience that was being triggered inside of you. And I really talk, I talk about this process of getting free as really the process of self-compassion. What was the pain point that was coming up for me when I was getting triggered?

Dr. Kelly The emotion, the emotional pain point. Step five is what is... How does that pain point run through my story? being able to start differentiating that, this person isn't the cause of that pain point. This pain point predated this moment with this person, predated this relationship usually.

Dr. Kelly so how can I begin to bring my higher mind back online by telling time and recognizing that this is about something bigger than this one moment with this person? Starting to recognize that "Oh, shoot, I have this pain point show up With this person and with this colleague at work, and now that my kid's a teenager, it's showing up with them.

Dr. Kelly And it even happened when [00:39:00] that person stole my parking lot at the supermarket this week. And now that I come to think of it, it happened with my friends when I was 14, and they did that thing to me. And starting to see the pattern of this pain point throughout your own story. and once you can do that in step five, step six is about learning how to feel that pain point instead of defending it, right?

Dr. Kelly learning how to let that pain point beco- come through you as a felt emotion, so that you don't have to protect it anymore. You can be present to it. And most of the time, when a person is able to feel that core pain point, that is coming up through them, they are, for the most part, free of the triggered response, and now they're free to go back to their relationships and engage those relationships with an open heart.

Dr. Kelly and so then in s- the last part of the process, we talk about setting boundaries without battles, staying curious during conflict, and connecting with compassion. that's really the payoff of the process is the ability [00:40:00] to... When your people are acting protectively toward you, when they're triggered, the ability to see their pain underneath their protections.

Dr. Kelly That's how I define compassion, is the capacity to see your people's pain underneath their protections. And you can do that 'cause you've seen your own pain underneath your protections now. And now you can come to them and... So now when my wife's triggered, she gets really triggered, and I didn't really do much, it's "Whoa, man, she must really be hurting.

Dr. Kelly She must really be hurting." I don't have to jump into all my own defensive reactions. I can stay in compassion for how she's hurting, try to hold space for that. so that's a, just a brief run-through of the process and a little bit of a taste of the practical tools you get at each step.

Hector Yeah. I'm glad that you... it's comprehensive, it's thorough. Like what I love about it is like, "Oh, this is it." And also the part of me is it seems like a never-ending, game that, that you just keep playing on until, forever until[00:41:00]

Dr. Kelly What I've discovered is that it, it-- people when they hear about it for the first time, they think they have to go through all nine steps in every moment, right? But you're actually usually in, in a particular season in life, you're really focused on one of those steps, right? So maybe you're someone who's like really good with somatic awareness at this point.

Dr. Kelly You're like, "Yeah, I can see that moment coming." but are you fully aware of all the ways your mind kicks in to defend you in those moments? Maybe now is a season to start to become aware of the subtle ways in which you defend yourself so that you can watch those instead of wielding those, right?

Dr. Kelly Like when your wife is saying, "All you ever wanna do is fix things," right? That's a defensive posture. That's a defensive behavior. So starting to bring awareness to those defenses. For someone else, it might be, "Yeah, I really need to go through that process of self-compassion right now and really understand what's going on for me underneath this."

Dr. Kelly And then for others, it's,I wanna take this back to my relationships and really learn how to show up openheartedly even when I'm getting triggered." but [00:42:00] yes, I would validate that idea that, the journey is ongoing. As my coach says, "You're, Kelly, you're not here to be finished, you're here to be formed."

Dr. Kelly So if you are hoping to get out of the, process of being formed, I've got bad news for you. That's,

Hector that is so true. Dr. Kelly, this is a fantastic, interview and conversation. It's been so helpful. but I know that we just scratched sort of the surface on the work that you've been doing.

Hector If people want to follow up with you, get more connected in your world, read, the book and the books, where's the best place for people

Dr. Kelly to go? Yeah. the... probably the best place to go right now is, to roadlesstriggered.com. Roadlesstriggered.com. That's the name of the book, "The Road Less Triggered: Turning Conflict into Connection with a Single Choice."

Dr. Kelly so highly recommend going there because, especially for, the next week, you're gonna be able to, not only order the book there, but you're gonna be able to register for $348 in bonuses, which include,a 90-minute masterclass I recorded with a [00:43:00] very wise and brilliant friend about the whole process.

Dr. Kelly you're going to also get, six months worth of membership to The Less Triggered Tribe, so you can not just read the book, but start to actually implement the tools and the practices,with a like-minded community. So it's a great time to snag those benefits. So roadlesstriggered.com, and then,come join us on Substack from there.

Dr. Kelly The Less Triggered Tribe. We'll love to see you.

Hector And we'll link all that up for you fellas in the show notes and ladies out there. And, as always, we appreciate you being here. We'll see you on the next one