Philosophy: How a Different Perspective Can Change Your Life with Rocco Jarman

[00:00:00] Hector: Welcome to

[00:00:00] the

[00:00:01] Hector: Modern Masculinity podcast, where we delve into the depths of what it means to be a man in today's world. And we explore the real life challenges and triumphs that you and I face every single day. My name is Hector Santia Esteban, and I come with no answers, only questions for some of the most wise, insightful, and grounded men that I know.

[00:00:18] Hector: So get settled in. You're listening to Modern Masculinity. Fellas, what's going on? I hope this episode finds you well. And I hope this episode leaves you better than when it found you and as always, I'm humbled and honored, grateful to be a part of your journey and similarly honored to be a part of yours.

[00:00:40] Hector: And today's episode is with Rocco Harmon, and he is someone who has come into my life and has provided a ton of wisdom and insights. And there are certain people. That I think we all kind of are drawn to for different reasons, but Rocco specifically because of his ability to think differently, his ability to go against what society says to go against what everybody else thinks you should do and to be able to not only be confident in himself to be able to think act that way, but then to be able to be.

[00:01:22] Hector: strong enough to be able to bring other people alongside. Cause it's one thing to go against the grain. It's another thing to raise your hand and say, Hey, I'm going against the grain and I want to help bring all you people with me because all of a sudden you start to stick your, your nose out. You start to be that, you know, that nail that sticks out, gets hammered in sometimes.

[00:01:45] Hector: At least that's what the saying says. And Rocco, we talk about how do we Ethically move through this world that seems to have lost its ethics. How do we morally move through this world that seems to have lost its morals? How do we move with principle in a world that seems without principles? And that's kind of, it's kind of what we talk about, because if you're listening to this show, it's probably because you look out at the world and you go, what the fuck is.

[00:02:18] Hector: Going on because this shit is fucking crazy and I think if you're not Saying that you're putting your head in the sand and if you are saying that Then either you're gonna go with it and you're just gonna gonna let it Take you where it will, or you're going to start to dig your heels in. You're going to start to, to point your sail and the direction that you actually want to move in.

[00:02:47] Hector: And hopefully this episode gives you some grounds on which to do that with. and frankly, this episode spans the whole gamut. I mean, it really can be like a life kind of lesson, but I know that no matter where you're at in your life. This is going to speak to you at your, at your moment because it's applicable in any and every stage of life.

[00:03:10] Hector: So enough of me, y'all. Let's get in today's episode with Rocco Harmon.

[00:03:16] Hector: Rocco, welcome to the modern masculinity podcast. Thanks for being here. My brother.

[00:03:20] Rocco: Thank you for the invitation. let's thank Lawrence for hooking us up.

[00:03:23] Hector: Yes,We're recording this. It's my evening. The kids are bed. You're across literally probably on the other side of the globe, but take me into your world and what are going through? Struggling with as a man, we talked about, you have mentored Lawrence, who's mentored me a little bit.

[00:03:37] Hector: But you're still going through things I would imagine.

[00:03:40] Hector: something that's prescient for you?

[00:03:41] Rocco: We never stop Hector. Thank you for that. We never stopped going through things. I Think inherently part of the masculinity that we're trying to. Embody or step into or embrace or become aligned and authentic with always includes leadership and leadership. If leadership doesn't look like love, it's not real leadership.

[00:04:02] Rocco: And if love doesn't look like leadership, it's not real love. And what does love always do? Love always looks for the heart of greatest need. And so what you do, especially as a man. As you see yourself as a protector, a provider, and some form of leader and space holder in the context of what you're bringing into your friendships your business, your marriage your role as a parent.

[00:04:25] Rocco: And given the way the world is changing so rapidly and the kind of challenges we have we're nailed on every single front politically, demographically, economically age, sex, sexual identity, everything for a man has become complicated. You still expect it to hold exactly the same ground.

[00:04:46] Rocco: You still expect it to be all these positive masculine traits, many of your inherent. Masculine traits that you're still trying to process the shadow of is not allowed. So you have to closet that or pretend not to have it or be it. And you can't put down the job of being man, a father, a husband, a friend. problems are. And in some way, I think they're always going to be endless. The worst things get for us outside, the harder our role or the harder it becomes for us to embody that role. And to always find, the balance between.sometimes the flex or the aggression or the intensity that you have to go after something to protect something to get an outcome to get something done versus the stillness and this sense of security or reliability that we can give to our loved ones or our friends because of how we always show up and that's a hell of a job.

[00:05:44] Rocco: That's a hell of a job. So in my own way, I'm still struggling with some of that.

[00:05:48] Hector: I think the challenge is 11 programming I hear in my head saying I'm going to go through these. So that way, Okay. that it gets easier orthat all of a sudden there's going to be some proverbial island, or beach on the sand on the beach where I'm just going to be, sipping my ties and everything's going to be easy, But how do things evolve?

[00:06:07] Hector: Because I'm 32, you're maybe a couple of steps ahead of me So still, right there in your prime, when you look back at your 32, your 30 self, how did the problems, how are they the same? And then how do they evolve?

[00:06:19] Rocco: The demands on what you have to do, like from as well as hierarchy of needs perspective stays the same. So you still got the same physiological needs, the same security needs, the same esteem and social needs. But what you can't even understand is that it'll peak on top. The actualization piece the, how am I going to become my own man?

[00:06:39] Rocco: How am I going to follow my own star in the sky? Because authenticity is something that needs to be practiced and you don't get told this and then we don't get initiated anymore either. And so we don't get told that. Yeah, dude, you are going to feel completely inauthentic and everything you do is going to look and feel authentic.

[00:06:55] Rocco: But it's in that awkwardness and in that uncertainty and not knowing where you are going to find actually your true self, the voice that's going to say to you, no, dude, that was a fuck up. That was a mistake. You have to fix this. This was an oversight. You have to correct that this was an you've got to go in harder next time and it's how we find our authenticity. But the other problem is so I think that's what changes and stays the same times evolving. We're evolving. We're unfolding. The moment is unfolding around us. Our relationships are getting more complex. New responsibilities arrive as we get older. The way that I saw myself in relation to the world and in relation to the people I loved has completely changed. I have many of the same problems, but my relationship to those problems are just completely different.

[00:07:38] Hector: So take me to dip today, though, for what does that look like on a. Thursday for you how is that staring at you today?

[00:07:45] Rocco: I've got that I teach on a spiritual level. I've got clients that I coach on a kind of psychological and personal level. I've got a wife who's going through her own generational trauma healing her own inner child healing, her own development and growth. We've got a toddler, a two year old.

[00:08:02] Rocco: So we're oldish parents. We're slightly out of step with all of our peers, people that are our age. Don't have young kids, and people with young kids are not our age. In addition to that, we're very spiritual people, so we're not crystal waving spiritual. We're just like the ones that I don't want to do things that compromises or or numbs my soul.

[00:08:23] Rocco: And the place that we're living in is completely antithetical to that. And the people in the neighborhood we live in just could not give a fuck. it's isolation. And the other thing with a two year old is we don't have the kind of support that we want or need with a two year old that is trying to be their own little person that needs us to support and guide them, finding out where that line is. Overstepping the way I did with my first marriage and my oldest kid, walking that line and then figuring out how much of what I'm trying to achieve here is my own bullshit and how much is actually love. And it's so fucking hard to tell because we carry so much of our shit with us invisibly.

[00:08:59] Rocco: And so my wife and I have made a commitment that we are going to try and manage and clean our house up internally as much as possible. So not a drop of it lands on our daughter. And. The one thing you just have to make peace with is that on some level, you're going to fail. There's no such thing as perfect.

[00:09:16] Rocco: There's no right way. There's no only way ever, but there are definitely better and worse ways. And if you are not prepared in every single moment, it's a full time job with a toddler, full time, not because she keeps us busy on our toes, which she does, but you are. Moderating her and the moment at exactly the same time that you're constantly, carefully, lovingly, vigilantly moderating and observing your own bullshit, the noise, the voice in your head, your impulse, your nervous system, because all of that just spills out in seconds and you've normalized the worst behavior from your own parents.

[00:09:52] Rocco: And from your own society and from your own lifetime. And so it's the job of trying to undo years of bad mistakes and bad habits and suddenly realize no matter how much work you've done on yourself, this moment here with this little one or this tension moment that is caused between my wife and I, or this scenario that's playing out now that, Oh, this is scratching an old wound I didn't even know was here.

[00:10:16] Rocco: Or it's challenging a belief system that I've been holding onto, which like. It's clashing with the moment, and that's one of the problems, and I'll mention the other one, and you can pick which one you want to talk about, and the second part about being a dad, so that's the spiritual kind of psychological leadership side of being a father and a husband, and the other side for me is being a provider and a protector, and so being a protector when the political landscape is changing, What used to not be okay is now okay.

[00:10:44] Rocco: What used to be okay is now no longer. Okay. And I'm a little bit out of touch and I don't necessarily just want to put my tail between my legs and count out to whatever the political correct expectation is anyway. So I'm trying to navigate that line with love and trying to figure out what wisdom looks like.

[00:10:59] Rocco: And at the same time, I'm trying to let my gifts and talents and value live in the world in a way that I can make a living from it. Without compromising my authenticity and my dignity and my integrity by using sales funnels and internet marketing and social media spammy Bullshit because it turns my stomach and everything tells me inside me that this is broken and wrong So what I'm working on at the moment is a project called a better way And the premise is there's no right to only ways, but they have to be better in worse ways.

[00:11:32] Rocco: And this is a journey and I'm looking for the better ways right now. The focus is on how to solve the first immediate problem, reach problem, the social media marketing problem. So I'm applying all of my wisdom and my philosophy, cause I'm a philosopher and a poet at heart as well. I'm applying all of that skill.

[00:11:49] Rocco: Into addressing that problem. So I've got a webinar coming up and I'm spinning up newsletters and things, but the idea of a better way for me, I can't be the only one that wants to make a living in the world and do so without resorting to these soul destroying tactics of sales funnels and bro marketing and all that other shit. And the problem is for me, I spend years becoming who I am, and I'm proud of who I am. I love who I am. I love the guy in the mirror. I think he's a very good human being. And I would follow him. And I spend hours, maybe days, sometimes producing something of value, an article a, some other form of content.

[00:12:26] Rocco: And on the other side of the equation, I'm competing with players that just do not give a fuck. They'll spin something up on AI or chat GPT. They'll steal somebody else's work. They'll no problem. And you're over here in the corner playing marquee of Finsbury boxing rules. And someone's over there street fighting.

[00:12:45] Rocco: With glass stitched into their gloves. You are just not playing on an even playing field and it's how to walk that line and do what I,need to do in a way that doesn't compromise my philosophy and my ethics. In a way that I can provide for my wife and child, but in a way that if my child looks at me in the eye one day and says, daddy, what did you do?

[00:13:03] Rocco: I want to say whatever it took, but not in a way that compromised my integrity. And that is a very hard line to walk today.

[00:13:11] Hector: Yeah, it's definitely,

[00:13:13] Hector: yeah we'll get into the craziness of the world but one of the things that the themes that emerged in what you were talking is this idea of authenticity. And I think that's so big. And I similarly try and,give, my son the freedom to find what he liked, to live his life.

[00:13:27] Hector: I think so much of. my parents love was trying to get them to do what they thought was what I should do. And that was great. And, it was what it was, but I think that it was not in alignment

[00:13:39] Hector: with,

[00:13:40] Rocco: a better way.

[00:13:41] Hector: yeah, there's a better way. And I think that we're now in a position to give that to our sons.

[00:13:45] Hector: But I'm curious for you, like that idea of authenticity, we wake up every day and the pull to whatever the tick tock culture, the tick tock, the memes,

[00:13:55] Hector: this trolling, I'D love for you to talk about how, you approach that whole thing, right?

[00:14:01] Hector: Because it seems like you have, yeah. A lot of ideas, maybe you've set up some boundaries or that's been something that you've, thought through. So take us into your world how you are navigating that.

[00:14:10] Rocco: the first thing is busting a few myths. And calling some bullshit that no one else seems to be calling or bringing to our attention, things that we're not noticing authenticity. Like I said, needs to be practiced. The first thing is no one tells us that no one tells us that. And the only way to actualize that pinnacle on top of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, what we think that means is.

[00:14:35] Rocco: Ambition, like I'm going to become a millionaire. I'm going to have a big business. I'm going to grow a brand. I'm going to get 10, 000 followers. All of these are very trivial, arbitrary, external indicators of success that are brokered amongst a consensus of people that could be fools. Really?proof of this is the fact that someone will say, cream rises to the top, but then really good shows on television get canceled and we're on season, I don't know how many of conditions and the bachelorette. So cream doesn't rise to the top. The majority of people want to be distracted and they want to be entertained and they're easily distracted. And we think that ambition is ticking these boxes that we've all agreed. When we hold metrics like quantity over quality, when we hold the confusion around how much is enough and enough is not an amount, it's a decision, but we don't know that. And so we set these ambitions for ourself and we pursue these ambitions.

[00:15:27] Rocco: And of course we even achieve some of them or we fail to achieve them. If we achieve them, we compromise ourselves and we live small. Because they're always external. They're always borrowed ideas of what success looks like and status looks like. If we struggle to achieve them, we have a different kind of experience because.

[00:15:45] Rocco: We think there's something wrong with us why can't I grow my brand? Why can't I grow my podcast? Why is no one listening, reading my books? Why is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's the same as the dating scene. Young people, a friend of mine, one of my clients, he's trying to find love on the dating scene.

[00:16:01] Rocco: And the dating scene is a mirror of the TikTok, Instagram, Snapchat culture. There's no real depth. Everything becomes a commodity. There's this illusion of endless choice. And so your discernment goes out the window. People don't look for quality and depth. They look for something that's gonna make them feel good and look good on their instagram profile because this person's chiseled or their body beautiful and they actually don't know how to connect with someone on what basis to connect.

[00:16:28] Rocco: And it's exactly the same way as our life goals that we're chasing. And the thing about actualization is that you have to break the promises that you make when you first come or when you're young, because you make yourself all sorts of little promises about what you're going to do and how you're going to be, how you're going to keep yourself safe, how you're going to outshine your father or live up to the expectations of your uncle, whatever it is. And you just get into competition at school or in relationships or in your neighborhood and, but to actualize by definition means to invest in something which has got nothing to do with your survival or your status or your esteem or your none and nothing else on the hierarchy of needs. It's just about following your own star in the sky.

[00:17:07] Rocco: And to do that, you need to give yourself permission. You have to have self permission. You have to give yourself permission to invest in something that isn't going to get immediate accolade or endorsement or acknowledgement from the world and still believe in it. And in order to do that, you have to trust your own discernment and you have to trust your own judgment.

[00:17:25] Rocco: And in order to that, to do that, you have to heal. and whatever you're doing, you've got to do in, in, in alignment with your soul, like stumbling in the dark, trying to find your way, playing a game of hot and cold, you don't know where the way is, but the struggle that you encounter starts guiding you towards the way and says, Oh shit, it's not this way, or this doesn't fill my cup, or this doesn't make me feel good when I do it.

[00:17:47] Rocco: This actually compromises me in some way. How is it compromising me? What is this? This feeling that I'm having there's no book or manual for it. It's a very private, personal kind of journey. And then somehow you have to resolve that internally so you can live it externally and how that relates to the tick tock culture in the.

[00:18:07] Rocco: Instagram culture is, at the moment, we don't have a blueprint for how to behave ethically. I think it's a question people like me are starting to ask now. I'm fed up with trying to play by dirty rules that make me stink. So I'm going to find a better way. And the truth is, you have to begin with busting a few myths. Not everything is the way we assume it is. Not all content is content. Someone who spends years building themselves or hours producing something, they're producing craft or art. Like you're putting in this project together and somebody on the other side is saying nothing of meaning, something they can just copy off of chat GPT or borrow somebody else's artwork or image or music for, and they can spin it up in minutes and we go, that's content and that's content. If we don't make the distinction, we compromise ourselves. If other people don't make the distinction, they get the internet and the experience and the life and the world that they deserve. And we do exactly the same with news. We do the same with dating. We do the same with meals. As long as the meal looks like it belongs on Instagram, we eat it.

[00:19:10] Rocco: We've got no clue who made it. We've got no connection with the people that make our food. We've got no, we don't have conscious. Engagement when you're sitting down to eat with someone else and all of these things have a different field of experience that we could be tapping into. what I'm beginning now is exploring what does that look like online?

[00:19:27] Hector: What's a lot for I think both generations because someone who's in your position, you came up and I would imagine that the Internet was. almost an adult or like approaching adulthood before the internet really came online, especially social media. yeah, I graduated, I was graduating high school when the iPhone came out.

[00:19:46] Hector: And then I graduated college when instagram, as a senior in college and instagram. And so I just missed that. And a lot of people my age, but I realized that right around there, right? you're coming from your, let's call it your generation, kind of generation X. Yeah.

[00:19:57] Hector: There's this disconnect with technology because you guys look at us this is so you guys grew up outside, we grew up inside. And so there's this,

[00:20:05] Hector: I think,

[00:20:06] Hector: for my generation, the challenge that we look at it now is that we didn't have the chance to go outside and play.

[00:20:12] Hector: So we didn't have the chance to fail outside, to fall off the tree, to trip, to bruise ourselves, to scrape our knees. And so all of a sudden we get out into the real world and we're faced with this decision, right? This decision to be authentic, this opportunity to be authentic, that all of a sudden we make that decision and it's painful.

[00:20:28] Hector: We scrape our knee for the first time. And it's we don't, we're exactly, we think that we are wrong. SO that's now the challenge that I think a lot of people. Generation X and the Millennials, whatever age you're at, you're both looking at it either from a place of indecisiveness or a place of disconnect.

[00:20:45] Hector: Because, you're just looking at this world. Like, how did we get this far so quickly? I talked to a lot of my family members and cousins who are, about 40 50 40, 45 50 years old. they're like, what happened to you? Like, how did we go From me to that, so quickly,

[00:21:04] Rocco: That goes good men create strong men, create good times, good times, create weak men, create hard times, create strong men. That's how we got here.

[00:21:14] Hector: Where do you think we are on that part? Are we in the spot where there's a bunch of, where are we?

[00:21:19] Rocco: I'll tell you where we are. So look, can't prove it, but I think time will prove what I'm about to say, but I absolutely fucking believe it. And I'm smart and I've been looking at this very closely for a long time. In a different lens to what everybody else does, because I'm not caught in the, is this team, or is it that team I see the middle of everything I was born that way in one way. History rhymes or doesn't repeat, but it does rhyme and we can keep going on. Here we go again. The sky has always been falling. Now there's always been trouble. Ah, there's always been war in the Middle East. Ah, the Ukrainians have always hated the Russians and vice versa. Yeah, sure. But while that's happening, the number of people on our planet are getting more and more. Our technology is advancing quicker and quicker. What we used to have amongst human beings. Is the show would come on television or a movie would come out or a new song would come out on the radio and we were all listening to the same music on the radio and then she got sick and you listen to your own stuff when you got together with your friends but even then you were sharing music with your friends you would watch the episode of night rider or macgyver or miami vice or whatever it was and the show would get to a cliffhanger and then all the adults at work were talking about that at the water cooler.

[00:22:30] Rocco: In the office and all the kids were talking about it in the playground at recess and we had these virtual experiences coming at us before social media and the internet and streaming services, virtual experiences, and then we didn't have the lived gravity of lived experience to counterbalance or integrate what we were seeing or we were understanding, but we were sharing those ideas with everybody and so we would still move together and coagulate together and grow and form ideas together.

[00:22:58] Rocco: And then streaming services came, and social media feeds came, and suddenly we got the volume, the amplitude of virtual experience fucking dialed up, shrunk down into 5 seconds, 15 seconds, into memes, into reels, into shorts, so it's more rapid change. More content, more personalized just for me. What do you think that does sociologically or anthropologically to a society?

[00:23:30] Rocco: It makes them diverge in frames of reference from each other completely. Then you keep

[00:23:35] Hector: and potentially isolating too, right?

[00:23:37] Rocco: Very fucking isolating. you keep playing the other track that was also playing, which was war disease, new pandemic. When AIDS first came out, there was a pandemic. When Ebola first came out, there was a worldwide concern.

[00:23:52] Rocco: When Zika virus came out, everybody freaked out the media. Changed their business model from keeping people informed pharmaceuticals and healthcare changed their business model from keeping people healthy to selling medicine to sick people and selling services to sick people, selling insurance to sick people. Media's new incentive is keeping people engaged in their platform as is social media. I don't care how we do it, whether it's only fans and tits, we'll do it that way, whether it's. Bros about cars, whether it's about political outrage, doesn't matter what it's about, we've got something for everyone that will either distract or titillate you or will piss you off and make you angry at someone.

[00:24:34] Rocco: That's what we need. We need you distracted. We need you pissed off and we need you fucking not concentrating on yourself or the problem. on each other whilst having these personal individualized experiences whilst technology like printing a virus chain. In a or creating nuclear fission in a university laboratory, stuff that used to take a country, a small country, a whole national budget and 10 years to invest and develop now be done in a university laboratory over a weekend. So now you've democratized all this technology, the planet's getting hotter, there's more people, there's more noise, people can't agree on anything you've created a tower of Babel scenario, and then somebody else goes, Oh, I don't know about that. Yeah, there's always been happening. Yeah. Sky has always been falling.

[00:25:24] Rocco: And I go, yeah, the sky has always been falling. What did you think was going to happen with all that So where we are now

[00:25:30] Hector: It's like a steaming kettle pot, right?

[00:25:32] Rocco: oh, it's a steaming dumpster fire on wheels. The problem is it's just escalating and escalating. If you pay attention, we went from the American election into Brexit.

[00:25:44] Rocco: black lives matter into before that was a hashtag me too. Then it was COVID then it was the Ukraine war, then it's the Palestine, it's never fucking ending and it will not end. It will not end because it's in the interests of media companies. And the military industrial complexes and all their counterparts in the world to keep agitating the jar.

[00:26:09] Rocco: And then on this side, there's people that are blaming that side. And on this side, there's people that are blaming that side. And then you just put the red ants in with the black ants and you shake the jar and the black ants keep thinking the shaking or the problem is the red ants and the red ants keep thinking it's the black ants and off you go. at the fact that the jar is being agitated and somebody's profiting from all of this animus. And what's more is the fools that are profiting from the animus and the distraction haven't thought out what the end game is. And so now the game's getting ahead of them. Social media is getting out of control from social media platforms. It's out of control. Everything's out of control. It's like a snowball just rolling down the hill. Dating services are turning, breaking people's psychology around intimacy and sex. Pornography is ruining sex for young people. Dating is ruining intimacy and connection.

[00:27:03] Rocco: Social media is ruining public discourse. Everything is ruining everything. But we're so excited about what we're doing. AI is now ruining art and creativity. And when all of those problems start conspiring, not only are you lighting a forest fire and letting the dam flood over the levee and narrowing the roads and increasing the speed limits and doing this, you're doing it all at the same time, and something has to give, and unfortunately, a system fails When it's inputs exceed it's throughput you can't live out of harmony with nature.

[00:27:41] Rocco: You can't do it. Capitalism will tell you, you can do it, but you can't. But the shareholders are not interested in listening because it's not in their interests to listen. So everyone's just got to keep chasing more. The politicians are not interested in listening or saying, Hey, we made a mistake.

[00:27:58] Rocco: Why can't they do that? It's not because they're all liars. It's because on the other side of the aisle is someone with bad faith waiting for them to just be decent and say, yeah, we got that wrong. Ah, this is why you shouldn't have trusted these fools. Look what they did. And then the populists are so stupid.

[00:28:15] Rocco: They'll go, yeah, fuck those guys. And so we tick tock pendulum swing between left and right. And they're all just the same bunch of idiots with different color ties. Pretending to care about different shit. And we are the ones stuck, caught in the middle. So where's it gonna end? The only way things like this end is breakdown and venting.

[00:28:35] Rocco: Purging. You purge through crying. You purge through blood. You purge through expression. So everyone's fucking angry. Everyone's shitting all over each other. But eventually, those who can't raise their words, Raise their voices and those who can't do either raise their fists when conversation fails war it's the old classics pestilence famine war death and until our newspapers are full of those and we're sick of it Nothing's going to change

[00:29:08] Hector: I appreciate the rising levels of anxiety that you've given me in my body, but that is my

[00:29:12] Rocco: it's my inability because as I'm sitting there, I'm going, fuck Rocco, what is the better way? you've really set the tone and the challenge is that I haven't really shared a whole lot where it's come from, but I've done, a lot of hermetic, setting into kind of hermeticism and, so looking,

[00:29:27] Hector: for the answers, right?

[00:29:27] Hector: And one of the things for people who don't know we're talking about doesn't matter, but one of the big concepts is, as above, so below, right? The idea of there's macro and a micro. And what I've seen over the last couple of years is that It's obvious, but this stuff has creeped into people's lives that the wars on out there that are going on out there are seeping into our relationships

[00:29:46] Hector: that the,

[00:29:47] Hector: so I'm wondering,

[00:29:48] Hector: We can't pretend it's not there because it is, I don't know, how do we appropriately set the boundaries or how do we, how do we, it's, I don't think we all have to sing kubaya and pretend that it's all going to be okay.

[00:30:00] Hector: Like,

[00:30:00] Rocco: hug it out now. No.

[00:30:01] Hector: So it's give us what you've got so far on the better way.

[00:30:04] Hector: What does that look

[00:30:05] Rocco: Yeah. Sure. Look. So the first thing I was talking about miss myth busting is anyone who claims to have the answers philosophically, spiritually, technically is either full of shit or they're dishonest or they're just don't, or they're confused. Now, we have public intellectuals.

[00:30:21] Rocco: For all of their merits that they have in the world, people like Elon Musk, Brett Weinstein, Jordan Peterson real pieces of shit like Alex Jones agitating dick bags like Tim Pool. There's different kinds of people trying to speak solutions or sense into the moment. Most of them are just fermenting or mongering more discontent.

[00:30:40] Rocco: It's always a kind of pot shot and a slag off of somebody else. It's. And then putting a suit on and strumping around on the stages. If you have answers, it just cannot be that it can't be that's not, it's not going to get us anywhere. Also, the more sarcastic, the more sanctimonious, the more self righteous.

[00:30:59] Rocco: The more you are prepared to insult somebody else's morals or their intelligence. If the aim is to try and win a war of ideas, which is what all politics and ideology is I, if you can't notice by now whether you're caught up in one of these dramas or whether you got your head in the sand, whatever it is, first of all, neither of those two are out or possible outcomes.

[00:31:21] Rocco: Apathy is not gonna get us across the line. You're pretending it's not happening and getting so raw and involved and buying into the drama is not the answer either. If you can't notice the reality, just the plain fact that if you had to try and win somebody else over or persuade them, there is no way that insult or sanctimony is ever going to move their needle and say, you know what?

[00:31:46] Rocco: You really made me think by gone, you know, I I think at the end of the day I might listen to your story about vaccinations after all it's impossible. So my argument is that if you look at hermetics, not everyone's going to understand hermetics, but everyone has had relationship or some exposure to philosophy. And at the end of the day, one of the things that hermetics is, it's a philosophy of reason. of the mind and reason dictates that every time you encounter an obvious paradox where it's a versus B or something looks intractable or it's impossible but then there it is, it's not this or that.

[00:32:24] Rocco: That's a binary thinking, that's dualistic thinking, and now thinking needs to evolve. And while we are stuck thinking, dualistic binary thinking is a vestige of being a tribal mammal or a social animal. If you want to think quickly and make fast decisions and make them right most of the time, it's okay if you make mistakes as long as you're alive.

[00:32:47] Rocco: The trick is, you treat everything As death or other either going to stop you from being, or what's going to come along and threaten you, steal your lunch, take your mate compete with you having what's yours, see the death or other simple. And every time our nervous system is dysregulated, we simply get amygdala hijack and we look, the brain does not reach for answers or for truth.

[00:33:13] Rocco: Our cognitive apparatus reaches for confirmation, and we're reaching for the confirmation of finding the proof of our story that we've already got inside of our heads. if you can't see that every time that there's a binary clash, there's either a lower fundamental that we need to take into account, or there's a transcendent third perspective that reconciles. These two things,

[00:33:35] Hector: Or perhaps and I think that this is also a part of hermetics that the opposites are actually just two sides of the same pole.

[00:33:41] Rocco: but the only way to see it is from the third higher perspective or from the lower fundamental.

[00:33:47] Hector: So let's go into that because I think helping people to understand, the way that I heard it was that, people on the left, people on the right, they're actually very they're different in obviously most apparent way, but they're similar in their zealotry and their enthusiasm that if you were to take their, that they really only, that it's this sliding scale.

[00:34:03] Hector: That is different.

[00:34:04] Rocco: that's the third law of hermetics, which is polarity. Yeah,

[00:34:07] Hector: how can someone like see, you said you came out of the womb having this kind of perspective. How might someone

[00:34:13] Hector: look for that or learn to

[00:34:14] Hector: adopt that?

[00:34:15] Rocco: sure. The first thing to do is to be invited to the reality that the prevailing way isn't going to arrive at an outcome. Just start there. Because if you can't start there, you might be open minded about what might better might look like, but you're not open hearted to what better might look like.

[00:34:32] Rocco: So you have to begin with the premise that apathy or contest aggression, they can not be the way. how you play that out for me. So left is going to win and then humiliate and injure right and then are going to carry a wound. And then eventually, there's going to be some revolt or uprising because that happens again and again and again and again and power shifts and it's just going to keep on going.

[00:34:58] Rocco: If you can't see that's not the way, then there's nothing I can say to you to convince you otherwise. So the first door that you have to squeeze yourself through and put some of your bullshit down is, can you at least admit? Number one, that the answer cannot be one side winning or just looking away.

[00:35:19] Rocco: Can we start there? If yes, because that's reason and logic. If yes, next question, can you apply objective subjectivity or subjective objectivity? If I was a Palestinian with all the wounds and insults and grievances that I felt would it be reasonable for me to feel, think, and act this way? Yes. If I was an Israeli with all the wounds, grievances, persecutions, history that I felt, would it be fair and reasonable for me to feel and act that way? One of the ways I tried to explain to people was during the pandemic, let's take the two camps. The one camp said, this is all a government conspiracy, and it's all about pharmaceutical companies trying to get richer. Okay. And the other group said, Jesus Christ there's vulnerable people. Can you guys just put your tinfoil hats away for long enough?

[00:36:07] Rocco: even if just look at the stats, heart medicine. That kills people. That doesn't mean hot medicine or hot tablets. Are deadly. It means there's a certain group of the population that can't take it, but let's work that out, but you take this, okay let's up the ante, if you definitely knew this is what no one can do.

[00:36:27] Rocco: So if anyone's listening, test your critical thinking skills right now, because I'm going to play both sides of the fence and no one here knows what I truly believe. So you can't think I'm advocating one or the other. Let's say there was like an Ebola virus, flesh melting virus that was going to kill everyone.

[00:36:42] Rocco: And you're a dad, Hector, you're responsible for your wife and your kid and your family. And your next door neighbors, they just think it's all a fucking conspiracy. And yet you have seen friends dying from this flesh eating disease that's spread by saliva, touch and coughing. And there's a pretty dodgy, shitty pharmaceutical company, but they've got a fairly effective vaccine.

[00:37:04] Rocco: Not perfect, but it's effective. And even if it increases the chance of survival, it's something, and you've got the government mandating masks and gloves. If you cannot imagine a scenario of a disease that is contagious and deadly enough where you would want your neighbors to be made to take precautions, you are struggling to think critically and you can't be part of the conversation.

[00:37:30] Rocco: On the other hand, if you knew that the government were amplifying something and they were in cahoots with pharmaceutical companies and they were passing laws, not just to help people. But doing it duplicitously to clip our civil liberties, which was a slow cranking ratcheting effect. It's just one tiny inch at a time of our liberties that are being taken away.

[00:37:51] Rocco: You would want the internet crazies to get angry and take to the streets and fight for your rights. You would want that. If you cannot admit that, honestly. You can't play the critical thinking game and every single dichotomy of opinion that we face in this world is a failure to put ourselves completely in the other people's shoes and go, you know what, if I believe that, if those things were true, I would absolutely behave the way that you behave.

[00:38:17] Rocco: And I would find that to be rational and understandable. Then you get both parties to at least admit that outcome is possible. And then you move on to the next phase, you go, okay, so here's the premise. Here's the hat. We're going to try on for a look. We're going to try the look on and be really going to commit to the look.

[00:38:35] Rocco: I'm not going to try a hat on and then I look in the mirror and I see that it doesn't suit me and I rip it straight off. That's not open heartedness. That's open mindedness and you'll drop it like this. I need you to take a bite of this idea and I need you to digest it and see how it makes you feel and see if you can build a tolerance to it because I think there's medicine in this idea.

[00:38:52] Rocco: And you go, okay, I'm in right now we can proceed to the next thing. The idea we want to try on is that every single time there is an impasse, what we're looking for is a lower fundamental that kind of cancels everything out or make sense of everything or a higher. Transcendent perspective from which we can look at these two things that seem opposite and we can find a reconciliation pathway. And then everybody goes, okay, I'll try that hat on. And then you test in production, you test in prod and what you will encounter invariably. So I've invented this public social debate model called let's play the game. org. And it's about exactly this. It's the rules of how to play that conversation game and how to play it. And the problem that you encounter is with your wife as with your next door neighbor or your friend that you have any form of argument or disagreement with is that everything is fine until you start encroaching on one of my deeply held beliefs. And the problem in America at the moment is we've divided ourselves along lines of belief, not lines of value. And We're arguing about beliefs and there is no reconciliation between arguments of belief because I can believe my story and you can believe your story. Belief is a function of mythos, a function of story.

[00:40:09] Rocco: It's not a function of reason and story is where reason comes to die. At some point in time what you're going to start encountering our weddedness. story and when people can't give ground on story, there has to be blood, but that's what a better way looks like to me.

[00:40:23] Hector: You, those are, I'm with you on every single bridge there, but I just look at I look at the general. Population the masses and I go fuck. My initial thought is like, we've got no chance.

[00:40:35] Rocco: yeah, thought about that too. You're right.

[00:40:37] Hector: And, the other thing that you mentioned, though, is that. And it's scary, butI don't know. I'm scary. I've been telling it to my son recently. It's like scary is okay. In the same way that hard is okay. I think that for so long our world has been,I don't want to say lacking of that because it's not like we need that, but that we lived in a very cushy world.

[00:40:56] Hector: I'm 32 and, was a very cushy upbringing, right? even

[00:41:00] Hector: economically the whole thing.

[00:41:01] Hector: the challenge of now all of a sudden we're faced With real life stuff, right? Both macro micro, right? All these big, all these things happening.

[00:41:08] Hector: And then I have a lot of friends who are, they're having kids now. They're getting married. or on the other side, they're going through divorce. They're like, they're all of a sudden, they're getting faced with life And there's a venting, right? I'd love for you to go into that though.

[00:41:21] Hector: Cause you mentioned a few processes. It was like basically bloodshed or like venting. What is that? What might that look like?

[00:41:27] Rocco:

[00:41:27] Rocco: Two things. So first of all, what you were saying is we've somehow tried to avoid whatever's hard or difficult or scary. I want to talk about that for a split second. The trick, the hermetic answer to that is, which is not mystical, it's just common sense is discernment is the missing piece, the ability to tell the difference between fear and danger.

[00:41:49] Rocco: Because you want to avoid danger between pain and injury, between discomfort and violation or loss. And you want to put a boundary around violation. You want to put a boundary around loss. You want to avoid injury. You want to avoid death. But you want to, more importantly, be able to accurately tell the difference between fear and So you can act prudently and that's the missing piece.

[00:42:15] Rocco: It's not that we should harden up and stop being pussies or that we should become more sensitive or that we should protect our children or not protect our children is we should learn to discern ourselves as a society. We should develop better language, differentiate between the two, and we should initiate young people into stages of adulthood where they can get more responsibility because of their proven ability to discern.

[00:42:39] Rocco: How to care for themselves and how to care for others with the right eye of, I can discern fear and danger and the right heart of having some degree of service to other, not just service to self. that's the answer to that, but you said, how do we vent? you also said that the outside wars and illness is creeping into us.

[00:43:02] Rocco: It's actually the other way around the unprocessed shadow and psychological bullshit and generational trauma and unhealed childhood wounds. And our fuck collective social psychologies is actually manifesting unhealed inside of us, unprocessed inside of us and manifesting in the outside world.And then we can't solve the problems in the world, Hector. We have to actually every single person be called to solve the problems inside themselves, inside the context of their own family. As much as I think Jordan Peterson is a twit, he, when he said clean your own room, what he means was, and what I agree with is start with the responsibility that you were given your own health, your own body, your own life.

[00:43:47] Rocco: Your own tragic story, your own family, your own kids, your own welfare. Once you're doing that well, start seeing how you can lean out and help other people. Now it's a dance and it's a game because you work on yourself as a means to be of service to other people. But if you really want to be of help, heal yourself, do it through trying to help and heal other people or to be of service to other people, because.

[00:44:12] Rocco: Whether that's how you show up in your marriage or your parenting or as a colleague or as a podcast host, it's all of those things. And that venting and processing we need to do, we need to do purging. Some people go and do ayahuasca ceremonies. And the reason that there's a physical purge is because it's a physical hook on which to drag payload of psychological shit that we need to get out of our and disintegrate writing journals. Prayer, actually. I'm not saying dear God kind of prayer. Being in the kind of state where you're reflective and you're asking life or the universe for what you want and saying how you feel and what your troubles are. Lighting candles for your ancestors, not because you believe in ghosts, but because you believe that their lives had meaning.

[00:44:56] Rocco: And if their lives had any meaning, That would matter to them. It was that you knew that their lives had meaning and learning to process your fear, learning to process your anger, learning to adopt, emotion. Hector is about motion. It's about flow. It's about movement. And emotion seeks to move through us, not be held on. And the nature of that flow is through action or expression. And the way that you can embody the essence of action and expression is stance. Stance. How you face the world. How you choose to deal with things. How you choose to own your own shit. it's not on the mat. In jujitsu on the mat in yoga or in your 10 minutes meditation, it's here now in the clash at the supermarket on the road, argument with your wife, the moment with your kid when they're screaming and they don't want to get into or out of the bath, that shit. And there's lots of ways to vent and there's lots of ways to purge, speaking publicly about your wounds and your stuff, airing them in a classy way, in a dignified way. I write on Substack for this. I process my thoughts. I write poetry because poetry is like a journalism of the soul that lets you scratch some itch inside of you or say something that couldn't be said any other way.

[00:46:17] Rocco: Some of it's dancing. Jiu Jitsu is a great way. Having a good cry every now and again. And the trick is knowing when and how to do those things. And there's a cyclic monthly routine that I follow, which has brought me a huge amount of peace, relief, and sanity because there's room for all kinds of expression and room for four different kinds of stances in that month that lets me tick all the boxes that I need to tick.

[00:46:41] Hector: I want to double click on that, the generational part of it one of the first episodes of this podcast, I interviewed a Dr. Ted Ransaw and he talked about how they could see. diabetes from the grandpa and basically what they were hypothesizing or extrapolating from that is that trauma is literally in the bot.

[00:47:01] Hector: That generational trauma

[00:47:02] Hector: is, is actually in the body.

[00:47:04] Rocco: we

[00:47:05] Hector: And I always thought that was bullshit, right? And you hear that and you think that's kind of bullshit. But I remember in a breathwork session stuff about my grandpa coming up and as I'm trying to, heal and fix my own shit that's going on in my marriage and, be a better dad and all this kind of shit that I've been going through, personally, which is interesting in these sessions is that, yeah.

[00:47:25] Hector: My grandpa and my dad and these things come up and you realize that they did their best, but we can heal some of those wounds too,

[00:47:32] Rocco: can carry some of the torch. Exactly right. We can become part of the solution. Exactly right. Breathwork, incidentally, is one of those wonderful mediums that can be regulatory and expressive. So it's very good for doing the job purging needs to do.

[00:47:47] Hector: Oh, yeah. right here in my quote unquote studio. I have a little couch and it's where I do my breathwork sessions. And I told my wife the other day, I was like, Hey, I'm gonna go, it was a little heavy around the house. And I was like, I need to go do a breathwork session. If it gets loud don't worry, things are cool. okay.

[00:48:00] Rocco: Hector, for people that exercise and sweat is another form of purging. It just can't be the only answer. And breathwork can't be the only answer. Breathwork is probably the, one of the closest things to a universal answer, because it's the first gift get when you arrive.

[00:48:14] Rocco: It's your first truth when you arrived in this place, and it's the last thing you give up before you leave. So it's actually the closest thing to a universal form of expression and and venting and regulation.

[00:48:27] Hector: we haven't talked about it a whole lot in depth, hitting on the points and that it can serve many tools in the sense that I go to my breath when I need to downregulate my nervous system when go to it, when I need to upregulate it. When I need to have some breakthrough or whatever it is, and it's using it in a variety of capacities, right?

[00:48:42] Hector: And it's cool that my son is starting to pick up on these things. And

[00:48:45] Hector: we've got our fire breath

[00:48:46] Hector: Dragon breath and whatever it is. So just for the guys out there, it is a well that's worth getting into. Would you go into these stages of the month

[00:48:55] Hector: for

[00:48:55] Hector: much as you can? Yeah.

[00:48:57] Rocco: yeah, no, it's very simple, actually. busy writing a article about this as well. But just to put a point on that breathwork stuff if the body seeks movement and the mind seeks stillness, breath is the key to both of those houses. iT's the intermediary between all of our states and forms of being and consciousness.

[00:49:19] Rocco: Anyway, the four modes is very simple. And it takes care of everything that matters to a human psychology, you can begin anywhere. Let's begin in spring, you arrive new, you haven't got a plan, everything's a novelty, you fall over a lot like a spring lamb. YoU make a lot of mistakes, a lot of regressions, but you start figuring your shit out around summer.

[00:49:42] Rocco: So the first week of a month, the waxing moon, from new moon to waxing moon, that first quarter, you treat it like spring. You allow yourself everything to be new, allow mistakes, allow regression. Allow uncertainty, very comfortable with uncertainty, with not knowing, then you move into full moon, that week, that's about crushing it, getting off to your goals, knocking things on the head, being available for other people, clarity, transparency, shining lights on things.

[00:50:14] Rocco: You get the gist, and then there comes a point where you start sliding away from summer into fall, into autumn, and then you don't stop working, like on the farm, but the intensity is done, and you know that whatever you put in the ground in spring, And you worked on in summer, there's a point at which you're not going to get any more than you're going to get this time around.

[00:50:36] Rocco: You need to stop. We think that doggedness and tenacity is the answer to everything. It's fucked. It's actually what makes us mentally unwell. You need to time box that shit and say, I'm going to go into more of a maintenance mode. Now I'm going to more of a harvest mode, more of a yield mode so that over the months, as we move into fall, We have a break where we relax and we rest more.

[00:50:58] Rocco: And we say to ourselves, the efforts that I put in this little season, these first, this month, I'm going to see what I can start reaping from this. The efforts that I put in the fruit trees that are planted months ago and started working on like my breath work or my yoga or my jujitsu or my efforts with my relationship or my diet or whatever it is that I'm caring about in my life.

[00:51:21] Rocco: I'm going to start seeing which of these things I can bring home to me now. I can start harvesting them. It's also a time for letting go, of intentions, letting go of objectives, letting go. Let it go for now. No more can be done this month. And now it's just a maintenance job. Hold on and see what lessons are coming.

[00:51:40] Rocco: Grace, celebrate, let go. And then you go into new moon, which is got a couple of phases. The first phase Is disappearance, letting go, grieving, grieving the things that you lost in your life, grieving the things that didn't happen, grieving the efforts of the one that walked the road and fucking ate dirt and lost, copped it.

[00:52:05] Rocco: processing that regret and processing your grief, owning that shit, just sitting with it, doing nothing else other than that for a day, and then when that's done, you create like the space of death and you just no more thinking, no more, just being still, just being here, just being now put everything down. And then in that space, after the grieving, after the venting, after the crying, after the purging, after the wailing and gnashing of teeth, whatever that is, perspective can arrive now. And you can ask yourself these three simple questions. What Do I want to keep doing what do I want to start doing and what do I want to stop doing keep stop start and I can make little rudimentary plans and these keep stops and starts can be in myself, my personal development in my family container relationship and in my work or my occupation or my craft keep what I'm going to keep what do I want to stop what do I want to start in each of those three buckets and I make a very simple grid and I just write some things down.

[00:53:07] Rocco: It could be nine post it notes, right? And then I'm ready to be reborn into the next spring. And then I get, start again. Then I'm a spring lamb. Then I've got these keepstops and starts and I've got full of piss and vinegar and I'm full of excitement and I've put all my grieving down and I'm ready for the next month.

[00:53:24] Rocco: And so I go and so I go and so I go and even my ability to lean into these periods improves over time. I don't try and for perfection. I just consistently trust the cadence. That's what nature does. Just keep at it. Just keep at it. Just keep showing up in those four different stances. And when you do that, your life.

[00:53:43] Rocco: Will evolve you will evolve because suddenly you are honoring the cycles of life in the world You are giving space for everything that a human experience needs to include instead of trying to push it and gun it all the time and trying to fix things there's a time for everything.

[00:54:02] Rocco: There's a time for crushing it. There's a time for trying new things. There's a time for harvesting and there's a time for letting go and grieving. And when you time box and you create time for everything, you master time and time stops assailing you the way it does, which is the hermetic law of rhythm. And this is pragmatic. It's sensible. It makes you feel good. It helps everybody. You can be better service to yourself and better service to everyone that loves you. Why would you not do it?gets even more specific. There's even stances you can choose in each day. But the question is always in actualization Hector about integration.

[00:54:40] Rocco: I'm only going to pick something new up once I've integrated the old piece. I'm only going to hit the new level of the computer game. Once I've got the checkpoint save game of the last checkpoint. Otherwise, if I crash, I crashed back down to the beginning. That's the point of integration so that as I'm going, I know that I've built a new baseline.

[00:55:01] Rocco: So if I crash, I'm only crashing to my last baseline and that's the value of integration. And what we are seeing out in the world is people trying to actualize by crushing it without integrating. And when they crash, it all comes tumbling down and everything that is not real when you lose it, when it breaks.

[00:55:23] Rocco: It breaks because it wasn't real. And that's why society is breaking. That's why capitalism is breaking. That's why communism broke. That's why Christianity is breaking. That's why the dating scene is breaking. That's everything's breaking because if it can't be aligned with reality and with nature and with harmony, it can't remain.

[00:55:41] Rocco: And this is what the outside clash in the world is actually trying to teach us is to say, dude, if you can't get your shit squared off inside yourself and start aligning with reality, everything is going to feel uncomfortable and it's going to keep feeling uncomfortable until you realize that even your style of dealing with discomfort and conflict.

[00:55:58] Rocco: Is also out of alignment with what, what actually works. And the only question you ever need to ask is, do you want to do shit that works or do you want to do the shit that makes you feel like fucking sanctimonious or self righteous or dude, I know where I want to put my money. And that's the fundamental essence of hermetics.

[00:56:16] Rocco: These are not laws as in thou shalt. These are laws as in like thermodynamics and gravity. This is how shit works. It just works like this. If you want to pay attention and figure it out, come to me. I'll help you explain it. We'll work it out together. It's a lifelong journey, but I'll tell you what's not going to work is just like pretending that our little human fiction of how relationships can work and how parenting should work and what religion is and what governments are.

[00:56:45] Rocco: The whole thing is a farce. It's a house of cards. It has to come tumbling down. It has to evolve, actually, but some of it has to break first.

[00:56:54] Hector: Yeah, it's like rebooting a computer. There's you got to shut it down a little bit. RoCco, I wish we could go on for longer. this has been one of our longest running episodes. So I want to thank you for going exactly where it needed to go. But if people want to go deeper, I know you have a show of your own.

[00:57:08] Hector: You've also got some cool things that people can go and, blogs and stuff. where can people go if they want to get deeper in your world?

[00:57:13] Rocco: there's obviously the podcast Eyes Wide Open Life, which you can find on Spotify and Apple and, Amazon and anywhere that podcast can be found. You can find that. That gets into these kind of topics, then I've got a substack where I do a lot of my writing, which is eyes wide open life, one word dot substack dot com. Sometimes I write twice a month. Sometimes I write three times a week. It's always this quality of stuff. Then I've got a number of projects, but if you want to make contact with them, just go to. Rocco jarman.com or eyes wide open life.org. So that's R-O-C-C-O-J-A-R-M-A n.com, which resolves to exactly the same address as Eyes Wide Open life.org. And there's a link on there to my projects. I've got a few of them, which we can talk about off, off air quickly. And the one called A Better Way. It's easy to find that from the front page.

[00:58:16] Hector: I love it. We'll link all that up in the show notes, fellas and ladies. I'm sure there are some, I know there are some ladies who are listening out there. I want to thank you. All of you for being part of the tribe, I know you guys got some value out of today. So we would be forever grateful for a rating or review wherever you get your podcast.

[00:58:30] Hector: And if you know a guy who needs to hear this, send this to him. And I say this every time, but he's probably not asking for it. He's probably not, saying, Hey, can you send me a podcast on how to get my shit together and how to figure out my life? But I know there's someone who is coming to mind right now that is either going through something or, that, they've got some stuff on their plate you just send them a text and check in on them.

[00:58:51] Hector: I don't know if I ask them if they're good and, see if you can send them some resources or send them this episode. And as always, we just appreciate you being part of the family and the tribe. We'll see on the next one. Later y'all.