Is Jesus the Perfect Role Model for Modern Masculinity with Todd Miechiels

[00:00:00] Hector: What's going on? I hope this episodes.

[00:00:38] Hector: When it found you and today's episode is with Todd Michaels, and he is a recent friend, someone I connected with online, professionally in a group that I'm in, and he's an advisor. His LinkedIn says he is an advocate, an artist, a catalyst, a collaborator, and I think most relevant to this conversation is he's a missionary.

[00:01:01] Hector: And we get into a lot about faith and spirituality and religion, and it is a, a very good conversation for anybody regardless of whether or not you consider yourself religious or, or even spiritual. 'cause I think a lot of the things that we talk about are relevant and helpful regardless of that. And, and that's really what I try and bring is.

[00:01:26] Hector: Some sort of relevance to your life and, and also to be asking the questions that you might be thinking of as well. And we get into some, some different things and it's a, it's not a tense conversation, but we both have different sorts of beliefs and, and I think that we're able to, you explore that in a really interesting way.

[00:01:45] Hector: So, enough of me, y'all, let's get into today's interview with Todd Michaels.

[00:01:52] Hector: Todd, welcome to the Modern Masculinity Podcast. , , It's great to have you here, man. Take us into your world. You are a, , I believe a father, a husband, you know, you have a business, you're a man of faith. what is it that someone like that is still challenged with?

[00:02:11] Hector: you know, do you find yourself in the midst of I.

[00:02:12] Todd: Uh, , That's a great question. Probably some full candidness. , Ever since I've been married to my wife for 31 years now, she's always been the corporate breadwinner. She's carried the benefits for our family. So, , for I. The first 20 years of our marriage, I was in internet marketing about 15 years ago. I got called into the mission field, so I. , I would hesitate to, to say I have a business or, or I'm, I'm an entrepreneur. I am, , truthfully, just, I have this blessing of being in the field as a missionary of sorts, and it's, it's hard for people to grasp that, especially in this culture, especially if you're a 53-year-old man.

[00:02:57] Hector: Totally. Well, I think the challenge is that as young boys and young girls, to a large extent as well. As we're growing up, there's this constant question of what are you gonna be when you grow up? And, and not in the sense of how are you going to be, how are you going to show up, but what are you going to be, what are you going to define yourself as?

[00:03:22] Hector: Are you going to be a lawyer or a doctor or a fireman or, you know, pick from the, the five or six options that they had in the, the board game of life. I dunno if you remember that sort of board game

[00:03:34] Hector: playing up. I grew up thinking like those were the options and I'm like, these don't look good at all.

[00:03:38] Hector: None of these really, you know, look very ideal. And I think that's sort of a challenge that a lot of people, you know, but especially young men deal with growing up.

[00:03:47] Todd: yeah. A lot of people can, can say, you know, they, that's the way they were brought up by their fathers, by, by their father's, fathers, , I'm not a his, a historian or a sociology expert, but I would imagine that the, you know, the World War II baby boom, the industrial age, , performance, , productivity, , being compensated to produce, is all kind of led to, you know, that.

[00:04:16] Todd: Perhaps like a generational curse of, you know, what are you gonna be when you grow up? How much are you gonna make, what are you gonna do? And, , thank God we've, we have a, a God that's patient and he equips us and he, and he helps us love on each other and, and disciple each other. Where it's like, there's, there's more important questions that unfortunately it took me, you know, 35 years on Earth to start asking who, who am I? Who's am I? And, the beautiful part is it's never too late. As long as we got breath, we can always start, you know, seeing, seeing the world in ourselves through his eyes.

[00:04:53] Hector: Yeah, I was recording with. A good friend Lawrence Dunning, who's been on the show a couple of times. We were recording for his podcast a few weeks ago. And it was interesting that I, sort of, the first time that I realized that I had through this process of sort of failed marriage and rediscovering myself and, you know, a lot of the stuff that's gone on in the first a hundred episodes of the show, was a, Way back to God, frankly. I still struggle to even use the words God. 'cause again, I've talked about it on the show and every, all the listeners are pulling out their Bingo card. 'cause they're like Hector's talking about his Catholic upbringing

[00:05:33] Hector: but it was a very loaded word. It was a very, just, it still is. And I, I find myself coding it with the universe or coding it with, you know, these other words when it's essentially the same thing. And I say all that because I think a lot of guys my age, 30 ish years old, were very, frankly, a lot of 'em were atheists.

[00:06:01] Hector: You know, we were agnostic at best. And we said, this whole God thing is bullshit. Right? It's, it's all. It's all filled with lies and, and all the, all the things. And what I'm predicting is that a lot of guys are gonna find their way back over the next little bit or are in the process of that. And, you know, covid and all the things that have happened afterwards, Life brought me back to God, You know, I remember my kid's mom and, you know, we were still married at the time, and her being pregnant with my daughter and her coding and dying for like, 45 seconds. And me in that moment, like searching for a God, just hoping that there was a God in those moments, you know, that there was something grander and greater that.

[00:06:50] Hector: can have power, you know, it seems that life creates a, a great, sandbox if nothing else, to sort of bring men back to whatever you want to call it, the universe, God, yourself, you know, like all of these thing creator, like pick a word. It's, it's still the same source. It's still the same thing.

[00:07:12] Hector: And, it'll be interesting. To see guys, kind of open up and wake up to something like that.

[00:07:18] Todd: Yeah, I mean, it's deep meaning there's no shortage of angles and opinions. I can just share. What, what I believe in my heart and, and that is, , that our, our God is, is a father and he's a good father. And, , for those of us that, that put our hope and faith in Christ, he's very clear and very consistent that to describe God is his father.

[00:07:46] Todd: And, , it's beautiful because, you know, I, I can look at. I turned away from God, like first 35 years of my life and, and, and know plenty of people that are wrestling with it. But I just, whenever I'm meeting somebody or even seeing anybody, it's like, who among us doesn't have a deep embedded longing in our hearts for a father? Right. So, so I, I believe that we're innately wired by our creator to know that he is there, he is present, he's all powerful. He is all knowing more infinite than we could possibly fathom or imagine. And I, I think through his grace and his patience, he is like, you know, I'll wait. I'll wait. So the, it's the invitation, to return. Right? And, uh, it's not a easy journey. It's not an easy decision and. I think a lot of people think those of us that make that decision, life just gets easy. And I can tell you it doesn't. And I can tell you that I probably have more questions now than before I accepted Jesus. But I wouldn't trade it for anything.

[00:09:04] Hector: One of the challenges that I had, and I guess the reason that I'm framing it this way, is that there's bound to be some percentage of guys of go. Who are listening go, oh fuck, here we go about the Jesus and God talk and whatever. And , I respect that because that was me 10 years ago. If you, you know, the moment someone started talking about Jesus or the moment I.

[00:09:31] Hector: You know, I, I would see athletes who would go, you know, oh, this is just, you know, I give all the glory God, or like that, those sorts of things. And I would go, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, you're, no, it was you putting in the time, it was you putting in the effort. It was your practice. Like I, I would, I would bring all this logic and practicality to that and I, I was just so missing it.

[00:09:52] Hector: At least, at at least. That's my perspective now, is that I, I didn't see it. But I, what I'd love to get your, your thoughts on is for the guy, for who even.

[00:10:04] Hector: Isn't spiritual or religious? How are these values still relevant to them and, and how can a guy or, or what's the foot in the door maybe that they can see how, despite their current relationship with. God or whomever, source or, you know, call it whatever you'd like, can still, like how do they still, what, what's the relatability?

[00:10:30] Hector: What's, the value for them? given those circumstances.

[00:10:34] Todd: Yeah, that's a good question. I think all of us, oh, you know, we even, even if you're like a strict atheist or a, you know, science, you know, I'm just a random assembly of cells and you know, neurons and stuff, we still have the ability to ask. A question like is there something missing? Right. I mean, what, what I love about what I don't like is when people push Christianity on people that don't believe in Jesus.

[00:11:07] Todd: And it puts them in a situation where like, they're not even gonna get real anyways 'cause that defense wall is gonna come up. But the cool thing is like if someone can hear something like on a podcast like this and just say, Hey some, you know, some guy with a baseball hat says, Hey, . Here's what I think like when you're honestly by yourself and you know, you don't have to perform or pretend, ask yourself a question is, is there something missing? Right? Look up in the stars and say, is there something out there that created all this, you know. I had a challenge. I've, I've, this is almost cliche to say, but, I, people told me this and I've heard other people tell other people this. It's like, Hey, you don't believe in God. Cool. Right? But there is a possible chance that he exists, right?

[00:11:52] Todd: So here's my challenge. You know, say, Hey, God, if you're real. Make yourself known to me. Make yourself known to me in a way that I couldn't possibly deny that you exist. Said, pray that prayer or say that out loud for 30 days

[00:12:07] Hector: And then just be careful what you get. be careful what you wish for.

[00:12:12] Todd: Yeah.

[00:12:14] Hector: I we're recording this also on, interestingly enough, the week of Easter. You know, the week before Easter is a really big, you know, it's a big event.

[00:12:24] Hector: There's Palm Sunday, which is this sort of celebration of Jesus. And, and then, you know, the, the climax, right? A culmination as it ends with him, you know, dying on the cross and then three days coming back. So, I don't know, there's, there's a couple of events in there. . But I'm, curious your distinction between, you know, Jesus and God and how guys can sort of position them in their minds, because I think that they, you know, you have the father and the son, right?

[00:12:52] Hector: Like that, those two distinctions are only becoming clear to me in the, in the roles that they play and the support that they can give men, because I think guys are so. So programmed to not take on any help or not take on any support and do it all on their own and put it all on their back, not realizing that they have these.

[00:13:15] Hector: You know, all powerful, all if, if nothing else, these figments of your imagination that can really provide some real support, for guys and, and what they're going through. does that line up with you or how do you see them in, in sort of a, a supportive role that guys can, can lean on?

[00:13:34] Todd: Well, I think, you know, religion and, and faith aside, each one of us is a modern man has a decision to make whether we're going to, . Acknowledge our brokenness, you know, our weaknesses, and let dudes in to speak into that. Encourage us, , give us counsel, give us wisdom. You know, you don't have to believe in Jesus at all to, to wanna make wise decisions in your life and, and be held accountable and, and be the best husband and father that you can be.

[00:14:08] Todd: And so, when you put faith into it, and God. It becomes again like your father, right? , Grace, mercy, justice. Right. Discipline. Right. A lot. I think a lot of people are just like, if, if, if believing in God means I'm going to be disciplined, I don't want anything to do with any God that would discipline me.

[00:14:32] Todd: Right now take the, take faith away and just say, what would you say to a human being that's trying to be the best person they can be in life and make an impact in this world and says, I don't wanna be disciplined, I just wanna do whatever I do. Whenever I wanna do an hour, I wanna feel like it. And it's like.

[00:14:49] Todd: That sounds a lot like what a child would do, right? So I think it's, I, I see a lot of times, I certainly was myself this way when I was telling these college kids, like, get away from me. I don't wanna hear anything more about Jesus if I'm being honest with myself. Like I just wanted to control everything.

[00:15:04] Todd: I wanted to do what I wanted to do. When I wanted to do it, and if anyone was gonna tell me otherwise, I wanted no part of it. And what I found eventually, after, you know, 35 years, I'm on my knees saying, Lord, I can't do this my way. It's not working. I. It's not working. It's never gonna work. There must be something missing, you know, what is it?

[00:15:26] Todd: And then I got this God size hole, right? I was, I, I couldn't fight it or deny it or resist it any longer that what was missing in my heart was. A relationship with God, not a, not an abstract idea or, or some label, or some, you know, fill in the blank, but a real person, a relationship, and it's a mystery, right?

[00:15:52] Todd: Like, I, I totally get it. Like that makes no sense whatsoever. This guy's smoking crack and it, it may not today, right? But it's okay.

[00:16:06] Hector: I think a big challenge practically that guys have is that they don't have the role models to look at, to see that something like that is possible. And obviously it's not in a human form, so if we're looking and you're saying, you know, it's a father that is all those things, compassionate, patient wise, like I, I haven't met.

[00:16:31] Hector: Very many that have all those, if any, you know, it's, it's a long list and also I think it does create this model for how we as men today can be fathers, because I think that that's, that's always been the challenge for me is it was like the Catholic God at least is this very judgmental, this looking over your shoulder.

[00:16:54] Hector: If you don't do exactly as I tell you, you're damned and, and there's never sort of a, a good enough sort of thing. Right. It was a very, , cold. Sort of presence, and that, that just didn't resonate. With, with a, I didn't feel good, but then it also didn't feel true. And so it's only when you sort of expand this possibility of what God is, that , you start to see, , what's possible when you open yourself to that and you allow yourself to, you know, to some of those things.

[00:17:25] Hector: And, . Yeah, I, I guess I'm just remembering how hard it was to see through that fog, you know, is the only way that I can say it of, of what I, what caused me to miss it.

[00:17:35] Todd: Oh, brother, I've, I've grew up Methodist. When I got saved, I went back to a Methodist church and then I kind of went to a non-denominational church and , at 35 I started asking, you know, a lot of people that were believers before I was about their faith and people that didn't believe in God. And what I found was that regardless of your denomination right, there's a good chance that you were brought up.

[00:18:03] Todd: Believing that this God was this wrathful, like, you better do everything good or you're going to hell. And I wanna encourage you, but I also wanna, speak truth. Okay? I've known some Catholics now for 10, 15 years, a lot of them right? That know, a very, very good loving father. I. Right. In other words, if you're listening to this podcast, right, I'm here to counterpoint Hector.

[00:18:35] Todd: If anyone thinks that the Catholic God is some wrathful God and that there's not a crap load of listeners that grew up Baptist and say, well, wait a second, I got that same God. Okay, so. I pray and I, and I hope that anybody listening that says, Hey, I too grew up with this view that God was, you know, this authoritarian like, you know, task master, it didn't sound like a loving father to me.

[00:19:03] Todd: I never saw a loving father figure modeled in my church. Don't write off. God, if you wanna write off the fallenness of our humanness of these well-intentioned leaders that many have gone astray because they're human, that's cool. Right? But please, please, please don't write off God. Seek 'em out. You'd said, , hey, you know what?

[00:19:28] Todd: How do you find. A mentor, right? Like how do you find someone that that is patient? I wanna challenge you, I wanna challenge your listeners, right? Because if you said, if you really want to find somebody, okay, just look for somebody like who, who do, who comes to mind? That always seems joyful. It's that cashier at the grocery store.

[00:19:52] Todd: It's that guy that drops off the packages. It's the guy mowing the lawn or the woman. Serving coffee. If you see someone that's like, there's something about you that's joyful, like you're always peaceful, you're always content, you're always gentle. How do you maintain, how do you not strangle the crap out of all of your coworkers?

[00:20:11] Todd: Ask them. And somebody may just say, well, if I'm being completely honest, like, this is not my nature. I guess this is Christ in me, or this is, this is God that you're experiencing. And, , it's scary man. Like it's like. If you're seeking truth, you'll find it. If, if you don't wanna seek truth, then you won't find it.

[00:20:33] Todd: But, again, man, we all, we've got just this amazing opportunity to just, . Get real, like what I love about your podcast and just, you know, the topic of it. It's like modern masculinity would say like, just get real, like take off the mask. It doesn't have to be with your coworkers, it doesn't have to be with your friends, but find somebody.

[00:20:55] Todd: Right. Just find somebody and get real with 'em. 'cause we're all gonna know, as I'm sure you've learned, like we're all broken, we're all going through a lot of same stuff. We all have the same doubts. And the, you know, if I, if, if I believe in God, I have to believe that there's a, there's an enemy, a dark side of dark force.

[00:21:12] Todd: And man, the enemy's just, he's just, ah, man, I got everybody right where I want him. You know? So seek the truth. The truth will set you free.

[00:21:22] Hector: I, I mentioned that we're recording this. , Thursday is interestingly like the, you know, it's the off day and the, and the Easter week. You know, we Wednesday at the beginning, you've got Ash Wednesday, and so Wednesday is at least covered, but then you've got Good Friday, which I always thought it was interesting that Good Friday was the day they killed Jesus.

[00:21:43] Hector: And so, you know, it was weird that they put good on that Friday. Like, you know, I don't, I feel like they shoulda picked a different adjective, but. It's a very interesting story about being called into, you know, sort of into your purpose, into your mission, and. Once again turned away, didn't see any value.

[00:22:07] Hector: You know, there was a while where I, you know, questioned whether or not, you know, Jesus was real, and you go through all those questions and doubts, but as you start to go through life, you realize that they're, regardless of beliefs or supernatural or anything, the, the way that, that this man who was clearly a historical figure handled his challenges and the way that he inspired people is, is nothing short of.

[00:22:34] Hector: I mean, obviously it's clearly the most remarkable thing anyone's ever done and, and why he's, you know, created what he's created. But I think the, the story is, is a great story for men specifically to, to sort of study. Right. And, we can kind of get, kind of, get into it, but I, I'm curious, you know, when you look to the man.

[00:22:54] Hector: Jesus, who obviously holds I, I would imagine a a, a large place in your world or in your mind and heart and such, what place does he occupy for you, or what role does he play in your, in your life and, and has he played in your, you know, in your story?

[00:23:12] Todd: Yeah, so I'll answer that in a second. And it is, it's gonna be, it's gonna sound cosmic and supernatural like mystery and that, that's cool. But I wanted to touch on, you know, this holy week with, you know, Hey, what, what's go, what? Good Friday. Good Friday. What about Thursday? Right. I'm looking at my browser right now.

[00:23:33] Todd: Yeah. Mondy Thursday is what they call it, you know, in the church where whether it's Catholic or Protestant and you're like, not much happened that day. And yet, if you wanna see a model of a man right on Thursday, he's doing the last Supper, He's spending time with his closest friends saying, I'm not gonna be with you much longer.

[00:23:56] Todd: , Ergo I'm, I'm literally predicting my own death and resurrection in advance, and there's no place I'd rather be than this. Not only sit here and eat with you, but to wash your feet. Not, not symbolically, but literally and symbolically says like, do for others what, what I'm about to do for you. And they, and I and I, I'm just starting to understand as I spend a little more time in scripture and, and studying this, how mind blowingly upside down that was then, and it still would be today.

[00:24:33] Todd: Could you imagine if these modern men right said, Hey brother, would you mind if I just. Sat at your feet and washed your feet, right? It's like, who would do that?

[00:24:47] Hector: I'm just thinking, I, I just had a rush of, of what, what it must have been like to be in that, to be present in that moment for him because. That night on, on the Thursday, you know, there's the, the famous story of him asking his, his, a few of his disciples to keep watch with him and them falling asleep and, and him just being wrought with, with agony and anxiety.

[00:25:14] Hector: Right? It was, it was the man, not the first anxiety, but, the most famous example of anxiety and, and he's asking, you know, for, for it to be taken, you know, all of this, for them not to have to go through it, and yet he still. With, with all, all of himself, gives himself to this, this trial and challenge that he's gonna have to go through.

[00:25:35] Hector: And I, I don't, I obviously men are not gonna be put against up against that, but I think there are a lot of times where men are sort of they know that this is, , this trial is in front of them, and. It's how do they face it? , How do they handle it, you know, with, this grace and determination or, or something else.

[00:25:57] Hector: And, and Jesus is his. Only recently has he started to become this sort of example of how to, you know, really handle tough, tough moments in life, which I think getting into manhood, being a father, being a husband, being a provider, all those sorts of things kind of accelerate those sort of events.

[00:26:16] Todd: Yeah, I mean, it's deep, right? Like there's, there's so much. That doesn't make sense. WW whether you're not a Christian, whether you're a casual Christian, whether you're a Christian with a bunch of doubts, right? It's like, imagine what these disciples must have been like. Some of these guys, to my understanding, were like, they were convinced that that Jesus was gonna be the king reign in, you know, the new.

[00:26:43] Todd: Kingdom overthrow. The Russian or the Russian? The Roman Empire, right? It's like, what kind of king does this? Like what kind of king like gets all weak and mushy and you know, gonna wash my feet? No, this can't be you. I think Peter even said like, no, no, Lord, you can't wash my feet. Right? So a lot of it like that to me is a beautiful example of grace.

[00:27:05] Todd: It's like God, right. Gives us infinite grace that's available to us if we, if we believe, if we're willing to humble ourselves and open our minds and our hearts. But he is not gonna force us to receive it. He loves us too much. They gotta be free will. Right. The other thing that came to mind was, I'm thinking there's some listeners right now that, that don't believe in God.

[00:27:28] Todd: They don't believe in Jesus. Right. And I'm like, here's a challenge. Right? Like, and I'm sure you've seen the passion of Christ, the passion, the movie, the Mel Gibson movie. Right. It's like, I don't care where you sit on the face spectrum. If you're a man and you like, like gory or horror movies or like intense like plot, like TV, movies, that movie's gonna challenge you, right?

[00:27:57] Todd: It's gonna absolutely challenge you in some way. And if you're like me, like I, I was a Christian for. Probably 5, 6, 7 years. And I purposely avoided watching that movie. I'd go to church and like people would be like, Hey, it's Easter Week. Make sure everybody goes home and watches passion. 'cause we really want you to feel and experience what your Lord and Savior experience and I said.

[00:28:23] Todd: You know what, if I'm being asked, I don't want to, because I know if I do, it's probably gonna wreck me. And because I don't deserve what he did. And it's, it's easy to see this, you know, , nice, you know, clean Jesus on a wooden cross in a church and he is got the loin cloth on. He is got, got the long hair.

[00:28:43] Todd: But, but we know, we know even historically, like we know that's not what happened. So then you're like, why in the world how could this guy, this man, right, he was fully human and fully divine. How in the world could he possibly willingly a scripture shows us right in the garden, not, not your will, but not my will, but your will go through this.

[00:29:11] Todd: But the bigger question for me that I can't fathom is, is why? Why would he do it?

[00:29:18] Hector: Yeah. Two. . Stories on the passion of Christ. One more relevant. The other, the first is that Jim Zel, who played, Jesus in the movie, he actually came to my school, our church at the, at the time. And like, he was like, part of the, the, the movie promotion, like came to church and like, you know, signed autographs, took pictures with , the community.

[00:29:37] Hector: And so I remember the, just obviously that movie being a really big deal. The second one is, . I'm laughing because there's this meme that I saw recently on, on X and it has a picture of Mel Gibson sitting next to Jim Zel on set, and they're like talking about it and you can see, you know, that he's the blood and you can see, you know, all of the makeup and everything is there.

[00:29:59] Hector: And the, the meme is like, you know, first world problems. Like, this is how I feel when I'm, you know, talking to Jesus about my problems. And it's a, perfect summation of, of sort of what we're up against because yeah, take, take out the spiritual side, take out the religious side. There was a man, , Yeshu, Ben Joseph, who was crucified on a cross at that time, went through that ordeal.

[00:30:24] Hector: And so regardless of that, this man did go through that. I mean, you can think about whatever you want and believe whatever you want about afterwards, but, but that, like you said, that willingness, he did not have to go through that. There were plenty of opportunities to run, plenty of opportunities to flee he put himself through that willingly because he saw that as part of his purpose. He saw that as part of his mission and,

[00:30:49] Todd: Oh, absolutely.

[00:30:50] Hector: doing, and, and I think that that also can't be understated for a man that that willingness to endure for a greater purpose.

[00:31:02] Todd: Yeah, the whole thing makes no sense whatsoever. You know, we were all led to believe probably growing up like, oh, poor Jesus. He was a victim. He was wrongly accused. And there's a dear friend of mine, father John Ricardo and up in Detroit, and his life's work after being a priest for decades, as he is, got this amazing ministry called The Rescue Project.

[00:31:25] Todd: Well, it's actually called Acts 29, but he's got this. Teaching called the Rescue Project, and they basically go around to different cities and they help people understand, you know, make no mistake, Jesus was not the victim here, right? He was not the prey, he was the predator. Right? This whole thing was concocted way, way, way before. Right that he had to, he had to die and, and pay for our sins and to basically defeat death. And you hear those words. It's like, oh, here we go with the church mumbo jumbo again. And it's like, Father Ricardo does so brilliantly is he is, he is. He makes everyday people start to ask like, wow. Like, I never thought of it like this.

[00:32:10] Todd: I never saw it like this. So anyone that's listening, I. Questions at all is probably the most, understandable teaching I've heard from anybody regardless of their denomination as to understanding like what was actually going on in this whole story. Like, why did Jesus come, what did he do, you know, what does it mean?

[00:32:36] Todd: And, and what do I do now with this knowledge? , What is my response to this? I'm just learning. You asked like earlier, what does it practically look like? And it's just, for me it's, it's, it's a very simple that I, you know, I believe once I accepted Christ, , that he now dwells in me like the, the same power that that rose.

[00:33:02] Todd: Jesus from the Dead is now in me. It's in anybody that that claims Jesus and believes him as his Lord and Savior. And how do you, like, how do you grasp that? Like as a modern man, how do you even grasp that? You can't, you, there's no way to grasp it. So the question then becomes, well, if I can't fully understand it, at least I can respond to it.

[00:33:25] Todd: So what's my response? To a Lord that gave himself up on the cross for me.

[00:33:33] Hector: , Todd. This is, I think where our theological sort of differences, and really it might even be in the semantics differ because I think inherently the, the belief is, is sort of the same.

[00:33:44] Hector: Because that is, is the difference, is that when we are able to sort of make this realization that. Jesus, God, the universe, the creator who, whatever, going back to pick your, pick your noun, , you know, whatever you wanna call it, is actually inside of us. . Once we make that distinction, there's a whole new host of possibilities.

[00:34:11] Hector: There's a whole new host of opportunities. There's a, there's a whole, literally a whole new world that. Is available to us once we make that decision that you've said and, and I used to, I used to put people who said exactly what you said, you know, when I've accepted Jesus and go, they're just. They're kooks.

[00:34:32] Hector: What? Like, like, you know, they're kooks and it's only when I realized, and I, I haven't shared this as much on the show, but I had a conversation with my grandma early on and she's a devout Catholic and she's one of those who knows a good God. And so it was this, it was very interesting because she's talking about this God that you're describing and, and I'm like, but this is not the one they're talking about in schools or at church or like, you know, in, in, in sort of the, the practicalities of the religion, I sort of lost sight of, of the essence of, of who this God was.

[00:35:10] Hector: And I remember early on me getting into meditation and having this realization that. Meditation and prayer. I could be meditating and my grandma could be praying and she would be praying all the time. She would say, mijo, I'm praying for you. I'm praying for you. And so she would, you know, spend hour, you know, I don't know how long, but it seemed like she would be always praying.

[00:35:30] Hector: And if you were to put us next to each other, we would look like we were doing the same exact thing. And so I had this, this sort of like, wait a minute, or are we actually looking at the same thing from just a different side of the table? And, and, and that's sort of. Where I've come to, whether people are Buddhist or you know, Daoist or you know, whatever, like, like to, for me to go, oh, you're wrong, and I'm right.

[00:35:54] Hector: I go, that's, that's what I did my whole life. I said, if you're not, you know, I grew up thinking that if you were not Catholic, you, you didn't go to confession on Saturday and you happen to die. Before you made it to confession, you were going to hell. So like, you know, I was like, you got wait if Saturday's on Saturday, but what if I've got a basketball game and don't die if you've got a basketball game on Saturday because you haven't made it to confession.

[00:36:17] Hector: You know, 'cause it's immoral. Like all these sorts of things. , And only to realize that we're all talking about the same thing. And to kind of wrap this up in a bow where I'd push back is I think guys can experience. To you, it would say, Jesus, or I would say, you know, something, God or whatever. Like, I think that there is a way to experience that and not just have to have it on faith alone.

[00:36:44] Hector: You're not gonna get away without having faith. But I think that there are ways to taste. And, and you're not gonna be able to fully experience God. But I think that there are ways to taste this interconnectedness, to taste this, this oneness, and to realize that, that that is possible. And, and you're not, you're not gonna live in that 24 7, but at least you can know it's there and, and, and try and bring it back to.

[00:37:13] Hector: Your everyday lives in the sense of, you know, you hear people saying like, I'm, I'm live. You know, I am. Jesus is living through me. I'm like, oh yeah, that, that makes sense. That checks out, that lines up because we are all connected and thus connected to him too.

[00:37:30] Todd: Well, I, I feel in some ways I feel not qualified because I'm not like a professional theologian or an.

[00:37:35] Hector: and, and, and don't, don't be afraid to tell me I'm wrong, like, Hey,

[00:37:38] Todd: I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you that I'm not gonna tell you you're wrong, but I'm gonna tell you that that what I, what I think is true, okay? If Jesus is who he said he was, then everything he said must be true. If he's not who he said he was, then it's then he's a lunatic or a liar, like CS Lewis said. So. While people may say, oh, there's many paths to heaven, or there's many different religions and stuff like that. Everybody can believe what they wanna believe. But the one question that anyone is wrestling with, you know, if I hear somebody say, all your other religions are wrong, 'cause the only true way to heaven is through Jesus Christ, the right, then you have to ask yourself one.

[00:38:29] Todd: One gets to ask themselves, did Jesus raise was Jesus rose from the dead? Because if he was, then he is who he says he was. Right? And if he, if he didn't, then he is either a liar or a lunatic. And it, so it's like CS Lewis I think says if Christ is who he says he was like he rose from the dead, then nothing could be more important.

[00:38:52] Todd: It's an infinite importance. Like we have to start making decisions of what we're gonna do with that truth. If he's not who he said he was. Then it's abjectly not important at all, but CS Lewis just, you know, Narnia author and, and, , , atheist turned Christian. He said the one thing it cannot be is moderately important.

[00:39:14] Hector: Right. A and I think, and once again, I don't know that we're ever going to like close this gap, but my challenge was that growing up I would separate myself from, from Jesus in the sense of, I go, oh, he's, he's special. He's, he's got a special. Ability to whatever. He can walk on water, he can levite, he can even rise, you know, all those things.

[00:39:48] Hector: And perhaps I'm just looking for ways to make myself right and, you know, , self confirm all, all of my ideas. But the more that I start to explore, I go, he, he was willing to go to places , you know, he was willing to push himself and allow and surrender, and he was willing to take the human experience to a place that nobody's ever able to go.

[00:40:12] Hector: And, to say that we can't do that is simply just our, our will, right? Our own. Limitations, our own perspectives and things that hold back, but, but that he's not, uh,, someone's totally separate, , but simply the, the best one to ever have done it. You know, he's the goat, he's the greatest of all time.

[00:40:34] Hector: and I say that in a way to try and hopefully inspire people. Not to say that he is different, but to say that we have that inside of ourselves. In the same way that you said it, that we, we have that capability to take on these things that are clearly not as challenging, clearly not as painful, and, and to do it in a way with, with grace and faith and love and compassion and wisdom and, and all the things that he demonstrated.

[00:41:02] Todd: It's a lot of deep stuff. There's some good questions and, and thankfully I think we've got a lot of, there's a lot of great resources out there. There's a lot of good information. So, you know, my encouragement to, to all of our listeners is like, if you got questions, man, just ask. Ask somebody. I. Because these questions will, some of these questions they'll

[00:41:23] Todd: tug at us.

[00:41:24] Hector: Do you have to ask anybody though? Like, what, one thing that I did not, and once again, this is my ca I've really only had experience in the Catholic church. I did 16 years of Catholic school.

[00:41:34] Todd: Mm-hmm.,

[00:41:35] Hector: and one of the things that, that I didn't enjoy about it, and you know, when you contrast that to something like Buddhism is.

[00:41:47] Hector: Buddhism gives you a technique and then goes and, and, and sort of lets you experience what you experience and to draw truth from that experience. My upbringing now, once again, it was very, you know, I have one perspective and only a story of one. And, and that was, you know, colored in a variety of ways was, here's what you need to believe.

[00:42:10] Hector: we're not gonna allow you to experience that. There's gonna be small. Perhaps symbolic things that point to, to this meaning, but the actual experience of God in my 16 years of school and all the sacraments I did and being an altar boy and all this stuff, there was, there was almost zero experience of God and all of a sudden I take this new sort of path.

[00:42:40] Hector: I'm like, oh, I, I'm seeing and feeling and experiencing God everywhere. And so I'm like, oh, if, if I'm thinking that this totally makes sense why they say, you know, Tim Tebow goes, you know, everything happens through and for because of Jesus. I'm like, oh, that's, I, I'm thinking the same thing. We're just looking at it at a different side of the, of the that's that's a great point, Hector. Yeah. You, you'll see, you'll hear many, many, many people. Let's, let's take the Catholics for example. You know, many people say, I'm not even sure if the Eucharist, you know, the, the. The broken bread is actually Jesus, right? Which is what the Catholic Church says is the source and summit of the faith. My, my friends tell me, my Catholic friends tell me 70% of Catholics don't believe it's really Jesus. Okay? But that means 30% of Catholics encounter. In a very, very real way. Like if you sat 'em down and asked them, you would have to say either these people really believe it, or they're just wacko. Right? That they encounter Jesus in the mass in. Communion in the sacraments, in confession. And then you talk to some evangelicals, right? Like some of these megachurches, and they're like, I encounter Jesus in a com in a real, real way. When we're worshiping and I'm, and I'm, I'm hearing the music and I'm, and I'm. In the Lord's presence, and you're like, okay, you either really believe what you say or you're just wacko and then you talk to somebody.

[00:44:14] Todd: It's like, I just gave my life to Jesus a couple months ago. It's like, tell me about that. It's like, well, one day I was, I was walking and I saw a flower, and I look at the flower closely and I saw the intricacies and the beauty of it, and it, I realized like. Somebody had to create this. So like the Lord, again, I'm not like an apologist or theologian or anything like that, but, but it, you'll hear story after story after story.

[00:44:45] Todd: God uses nature. He uses, people, he uses scripture. He uses circumstances. He uses to, to basically say what all creation knows, right? Like.

[00:44:58] Hector: Mm

[00:44:58] Todd: There is a God and he loves us and, and I think in the book of Romans it, it says something paraphrased like nobody can sit there and say that they don't know I exist because it's on display for anybody in all to see. Right.

[00:45:18] Hector: Yeah, If you're willing to look for it, it is there. And. As we sort of round out, I've got, two more questions for you. Well, I guess three. The first comes , with regards to, a lot of guys are going, okay, so now what, you know, how might I carry this into my role as a. Father as a husband, as a provider, as a, a leader, you know, in, in whatever sort of capacity. You know, we, we, we talked a lot about, you know, some theological differences, but when it comes to, you know, helping guys actually make it through the things that they're, you know, struggling with, how might they carry some of this conversation with them forward?

[00:46:07] Todd: Well, I, I'll go back, you know it.

[00:46:13] Todd: Probably the most infinite question that any of the listeners could ask and wrestle with is, is it possible that Jesus is who he said he is and he and he actually rose from the dead? Because if there's a 1% chance of a 1% chance of a 1% chance of a 1% chance that it could be true, then there's probably there isn't any more. , Important question or pathway to say, I'm gonna find out this true, or I'm gonna find out as quickly as I can if it's not true. 'cause as soon as I do, I can either be on a path with Jesus or I can get on with my life and pick the best self-help, best productivity, best be the best husband, father, man, make a contribution to society.

[00:47:03] Todd: But. The ambivalence, the, the, the energy that takes its toll on us and the uncertainty of that question, I think it, it could drive somebody like totally mad. I, I was that person right about, about I. A year before I gave my life to Christ, man, I, I could show you my bookshelf, Buddhism, the, the towel, according to Poo.

[00:47:30] Todd: Wayne Dyer, Oprah. Don't sweat the small stuff. I had dozens of books. They were all asking, trying to get the same question. You know, what the hell is this life all about? Who am I? Why am I here? What happens when I die? And is there anything more to life than this? And I went through all of 'em, all the books, and growing up Methodist.

[00:47:56] Todd: The last book I wanted to be true was the Gospel of John. I didn't want it to be true.

[00:48:03] Hector: I, as you're saying that, I'm like, damn Jesus. He laid it all out as much as I wanted to be. You know, I again wanna have all of the other books and you see my library and, you know, none of 'em are, you know, religious texts or the Bible even. I don't even know if I own a, a Bible because I was the same way.

[00:48:20] Hector: So, and I'm like, man, I just, I'm like, he just laid it out. He, he sort of, you know, laid the blueprint. So it's,

[00:48:26] Hector: um, I think it's, it's timely that we're having this conversation on, on, what did you call, what Thursday? Is it?

[00:48:34] Todd: it.

[00:48:36] Hector: Mondy. What is Mondy? I've never heard of that.

[00:48:40] Todd: I'm not sure the origin. It says Mon Thursday, also referred to as Holy Thursday, among

[00:48:45] Todd: other

[00:48:46] Hector: heard Holy Thursday. Okay. I've heard Holy Thursday and then even Holy Saturday. I think they just, they give those to the days that they're like, I think this is important too. He did something important here. Thank you so much Todd. One last question before I do that. Where can people go if they wanna get more connected with you?

[00:49:03] Hector: Find, . In your world.

[00:49:06] Todd: Yeah, thanks. So most of my work these days is working on something that I call story stewardship, and all listeners can can relate with this regards to your faith. So it basically says like one of the most valuable things that we, I. Have that we can be generous with is our stories, right? Our wounds, our, our, our mistakes, the wisdom we've learned, our experiences, but we don't really do a good job, as men, especially stewarding our stories.

[00:49:33] Todd: I. Right. So in, in, in Bible language, like we're instructed to be good stewards of our time, good stewards of our money, good stewards of our talent. But when it comes to story mo, most of us, you know, live in a culture where, , my story's private, you don't wanna hear my junk. So I use this, story mechanism is a lot of people are doing these days in culture to, you know, to, foster vulnerability, foster trust.

[00:49:59] Todd: Foster empathy. So if you wanna know a little bit about more about me, you can just google like story stewardship, stewarding stories. I'm sure we'll have links in the, in the show notes. But yeah, man, you'll, you'll find me on LinkedIn. I'm, I'm always there hanging out.

[00:50:15] Hector: I love it. We'll link that up in the show notes, , as always for you listeners. And last question here, Todd, in your opinion, what is the definition of modern masculinity?

[00:50:25] Todd: Modern masculinity? Well, I'd like to think that masculinity is timeless. Right? And then I would like to think that masculinity is, , being meek, right? There's a difference between weakness and meekness. And if you look up meekness, it's like, having this. Tremendous power, like a stallion or a racehorse, yet, being able or disciplined or willing enough not to display it all the time.