Being Vulnerable Doesn’t Make You Weak with Shaun Emerson

[00:00:00] Hector: Fellas, what's going on? I hope this episode finds you well, and I hope this episode leaves you better than when it found you. Today's episode is with Sean Emerson and he is the President of Men Living and they are a men's or an organization of men designed to help men and really facilitate a lot of the conversations that we try and have.

[00:00:58] Hector: The types of conversations we try and have on this show, and he's devoted much of the last decade towards. Building out this organization and creating it and growing it. And what's interesting is he didn't really get into it the typical way that a lot of guys get into this sort of space. , And it's it's amazing for me to be able to see how.

[00:01:24] Hector: More and more people are coming into this space and the type of ideas and energy that they bring to it. And so this is just another great conversation for guys. And so without further ado, let's get into today's episode with Sean Emerson.

[00:01:42] Hector: Sean, welcome to the Modern Masculinity Podcast.

[00:01:44] Hector: Thanks for being here.

[00:01:45] Shaun: Hector, good to be here. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:48] Hector: These are increasingly some of the favorite parts of my week. I'll admit one of my favorite, you know, I don't know, top two or three. it is picking up my daughter from kindergarten. she still runs to me and like, jumps into my arms.

[00:02:04] Hector: And it is, I'm so grateful. 'cause I know that that's only gonna be for so long. And, , I've still got it. But, , the other side of it is these conversations. And so I wanna honor and thank you for joining me today. Take us into your world. And you know what's real? I always ask the guests to sort of share what's, real in the shit, in the muck, that they're still sort of clawing through.

[00:02:26] Hector: , As a, a man, a father, a, a partner, a business owner, you know, all those sort.

[00:02:31] Shaun: Yeah, so I'm on the other end of the spectrum, , of youth. , My daughters are 31 29 and my son is 24. So, actually, they, hug me more than they did when they were in their teens, so. Edit now, and hopefully, you know, your daughter's still hugging you when she hits those years, , but they've worked through the, terrible times, so it's great.

[00:02:53] Shaun: , , The muck, what's up for me? , As you know, as we've discussed, you know, I, I am in the throes of, , working in this nonprofit we created, , seven years ago, which is really focused on addressing issues around men's loneliness, anxiety, , issues around communication and who we are and who we wanna be.

[00:03:14] Shaun: And so we just create spaces for guys to come together, as we say, for connection, healing, thriving, , and so, there's the, , mission and vision side of it, and then there's the business side of it. And so, you know, my experience isn't really, I. In the men's field, it's, in business.

[00:03:30] Shaun: And, , and after I retired, I started working with nonprofits and the first one was focused on, after school social emotional learning for elementary school kids. And so I was involved in that for four years and then started getting involved in men living. and so the beauty of it, as you say, is having conversations like this, connecting with other men, and if you will, the slog of it, the muck of it, as you said, , is running a business.

[00:03:57] Shaun: You know, how do we, fund it? How do we work through personnel issues and marketing and all the other things that we wanna do. And so, that's the reality of it all.

[00:04:08] Hector: I think the good news is, is that in the coming years, it's going to be, more trendy to support and participate in things like what you guys are doing right now. The need is apparent, but it's not quite trendy or even totally acceptable to say that there is a problem with something like men's loneliness.

[00:04:39] Shaun: Mm-hmm. you do this, I mean, you've had a lot of these conversations, I mean, around modern masculinity and so, I still think we, have a ways to go. I mean, even younger men, I mean, you and I are probably 30 years difference.

[00:04:51] Shaun: . And we're starting to engage younger men in their twenties in these conversations and really trying to reach out to them and get them to start having these conversations. And so it's getting comfortable with, you know, with who am I and how am I gonna live as me versus these constructs that I think, we're indoctrinated into, , over the years.

[00:05:11] Shaun: And so how do I get almost brave to be who I wanna be versus who, society is telling me I have to be. And that could be difficult, you know, because you could be ostracized or made fun of or whatever. so how do you build the confidence and self-awareness to do that?

[00:05:29] Hector: I was talking with somebody

[00:05:31] Hector: yesterday I essentially said that nobody seems to like get into men's work, like willingly. Like that's what I grew up and I, wanted to be in, men's work and I wanted to, you know, help men overcome their, demons and their insecurities you know, all their bullshit.

[00:05:48] Hector: It seems, and this is only in my experience that life sort of throws men into those situations. And at least for me, I was drowning. I was so grateful. To see and find other men who are like you 30 years down, further down the path, who are some of them who have been having these conversations for decades now?

[00:06:17] Hector: And thankfully there are these resources and there are these communities where I can come in and I can say, here's, oh my goodness, here's what my problems and how, you know, bad everything is, and everyone's like, yeah, cool, me too.

[00:06:30] Shaun: Yeah. I hope you're totally right that it's gonna get easier because I think, , , it's almost like we have to normalize, first of all, I, I have, and I've said on other podcasts, I have an aversion to the, men's work title on this because I think it's like, okay, okay, we got more work to do.

[00:06:45] Shaun: How about we're just, you know, what work do we have? to me it's more, , I mean, it's simpler that it's just like, you know, it's coming together for connection. And so how do we normalize this thing that guys are gonna get together and rather, 'cause I think, and I, love that you're shaking your head like that because I think making it easier, so what I'm gonna get made fun of because I go and I hang out with a bunch of guys and talk about my feelings.

[00:07:09] Shaun: I mean, so how do we normalize so it's not even just so support, it's like. If you're in a good space, you want to go hang out with other guys, it's not just a thing where you have to come into when you're in trouble or suffering, or again, we created this thing because there was a problem, there is a problem.

[00:07:27] Shaun: , But how do we normalize it in the fact that, you know, like women, they don't necessarily put a label on getting together and talking about their feelings. So, you know, question for me is how do we normalize it? and I'll just say Hector, I asked that question because I have a lot of friends know what I do and wouldn't participate.

[00:07:45] Hector: There's a stigma, there's a taboo, there's a, oh, you're weak. And there's that whole, that whole thing, which I, understand. I. But I, don't obviously agree with, and I just let them, you know, I've tried to stop convincing people that are unviable.

[00:08:03] Hector: I did that for too long.

[00:08:05] Hector: But to your, point, and the reason I was shaking my head is I think that the work is not easy. In my experience. The work is going in and facing your inner demons. The work is going in and spending time by yourself, going in and looking inside yourself to see why do you do those things and why do you create these scenarios and why as individuals, we all seem to put ourselves in similar sort of situations over and over again.

[00:08:34] Hector: Whether, you know, the classic example, and this is on the other side of is like The woman who always finds the abusive, you know,

[00:08:41] Hector: boyfriend or whatever. And on men examples, right? I think the, classic meme is like the spicy Latina and I know all about that. But like, that's sort of the meme is they'll like, throw away all, all of their morals and ethics for the spicy Latina.

[00:08:56] Hector: And, I say that because the work is figuring out why do I have these programs? Why do I have this perspective? Why do I have this belief that a lot of them are great and helpful? And then there are the sum that I know I had that were lying beneath the surface, that were creating all sorts of fucking havoc in my life.

[00:09:19] Hector: I'm pointing the blame, I'm pointing the finger, right. Of all the other people in my life. And the kids, you're the reason that I can't work a lot. My ex-wife, you know, you're the reason why I feel like a piece of shit. Like I'm pointing all these things and you know, I have a lot of friends who like to remind me that, you know, when you point at someone, you've got three of them coming back to you.

[00:09:41] Hector: But to that same point, I think the work is being willing to go inside. And I liken it to unpacking like a, basement. We don't have basements here in Southern California, but I've seen a lot of basements where, you know, in the rest of the country where they're going in and they're digging out concrete and they're going in and they're, jackhammering and they're pulling, you know, they're, got it.

[00:10:03] Hector: Dig through a lot of hardened muck, and I liken that to what happens with guys and their emotions and their feelings and their trauma and all that stuff. And so I think that that work is hard. And what makes it easier to your point, is being able to connect with the guy and being able to be real and just be, and hang out and connect about an honor that it doesn't have to be solely around those things, but that also, that's a part of, being a man too, which I think what, at least what it seems, I wasn't, you know, around, I'm only 33, but it seems like so much of that was ignored or stymied, or you had to pretend like it was just easy or like nothing was hard or that like, you know, just suck it up sort of thing.

[00:10:50] Shaun: , , first of all, everything you just said, I completely agree with the difference as I look at it is everybody, every human should be looking at how should be. I think it's wise to continue to do self-exploration. Who am I? Why am I, to your point, why do I do the things that I do?

[00:11:11] Shaun: , What causes me pain? What impacts my joy. So all those things, that is a constant process. And there I think there are ways to do that. Part of that could be sitting with other men. Part of it could be sitting with women.

[00:11:24] Hector: are guys actually doing that though? And I'm such in a, insular world, you know, I'm off of social media.

[00:11:31] Hector: I'm so outta the loop 'cause I live in this small little. Elementary school bubble where, you know, the most that I usually leave is I go to the school and I go to the Juujitsu gym and I go to like the real gym and like those, if you were to like track my phone, it'd be like, you know, those are the

[00:11:45] Hector: four locations that I'm going. because I think the world's going crazy out there, so I'm like, I can't be amongst this. But is that what people are willing to do now is to look at themselves and to be not only self-aware, but I think the sort of the next part of that self-awareness is being willing to make self adjustments.

[00:12:06] Hector: And, I haven't ran into, , like a crowd that, you know, the masses that want to do that yet.

[00:12:14] Shaun: I'll answer it two ways. I think, , the guys that have shown up in our spaces, the thousands of men who've shown up in our spaces over last six years, they're looking for some of that. there's something that's not right for most of them. There's something that's not right in their lives, and, and so it's like, okay, how do I fix that?

[00:12:31] Shaun: And that could just be a friendship or it could be more so they come in. I mean, you know the numbers as it relates to men and , , deaths of despair. And so we have men coming into meetings with, you know, ideation and it's like, okay, alright, so there's something really going wrong and they I mean, I judge, they want it to be better.

[00:12:51] Shaun: and then I make this comment about self-awareness and self-exploration. I mean, look at all the self-help stuff. Now the question is the people that read the books and go to the trainings, how much do they practice and how much do they end up, you know, really making a part of their lives.

[00:13:06] Shaun: And I think that's the question that you ask, and all I can talk about is the people that I see that are trying, and certainly there are plenty of people who aren't trying.

[00:13:16] Hector: Yeah, that's a great point. the deaths of despair thing is, I'm looking it up here because I always talk about it, but I just like hearsay. , And you know, I cite people who are much smarter than me. But yeah, it says that from Harvard, us men die nearly six to something like six years.

[00:13:36] Shaun: Yep. Six years ahead of women

[00:13:38] Hector: and all of the, you know, the statistics about suicide and alcoholism and, you know, whatever, like you name it, it's what you said earlier. it is getting, it's not trendy yet. But for so long it wasn't even allowed for sort of men to speak up for themselves.

[00:14:00] Hector: there is this sort of inflection point that I think young guys have this opportunity to make a, a change from the norm and the. Social acceptance, the social algorithms, the social whatever. I don't know if it's caught up to the reality of sort of where we're at. And I don't know if it's, frankly happening fast enough for, for the guys that need help and are just not that I, maybe it's like afraid.

[00:14:34] Hector: I don't know if that's the right word, but it's, either they don't know it, they don't, haven't found it yet. It hasn't become so widespread. It's too weird. It's, like have all these taboos and so, , I don't think we're there yet, but I think something's happening.

[00:14:48] Shaun: I subscribe to this, perspective that, you know, any conversation is either a love conversation or a fear conversation. And, you know, if there's no self-love, there's no love for others. then there's fear, there's fear of something that underlies it and you know, and love comes confidence and, curiosity and. All of that can get squashed by fear. , and so we could go back into the stats and look at, you know, men 18 to 40 and what employment looks like for those men. And, , you know, how many are, I mean, the college numbers, I mean, you, I'm sure you've gone through those on the podcast and men are checking out.

[00:15:27] Shaun: and I think, there's a lot of different theories on why that is. , I think one of them is that, the gap between men and women and how they communicate is growing significantly. Whether it's political, religious, educational, and you know, I think one of the things that we have to do is get men and women talking together more than they do.

[00:15:47] Shaun: I think we kind of have to, and you know the name of your podcast is Modern Masculinity, and I think, I don't know, I think we emphasize too much this division of what's masculine and what's feminine. how do we look at ourselves as humans really, I.

[00:16:02] Hector: I think you're right, and I think that we need to have more conversation, I think they, unfortunately, it's not a conversation between men and women. It's a debate. It's a, who's better, or it's a, zero sum sort of situation and unfortunately. They have sort of the upper position, not because like that's what's true or Right, but whether it's the moral hierarchy or just the, political and the cultural sort of thing.

[00:16:30] Hector: and I also, I would say that men, they haven't stepped up in the way that sort of removes not culpability, but takes responsibility for both, let's call it the patriarchy and all of its sort of oppression and whatever, whatever. And then men's and young men's lack of response, you know, to the feminist movement, which was, okay, you guys are gonna do it.

[00:16:56] Hector: We'll just check out to your point, we'll just play video games and watch porn all day. And, We will sink into the, opposite of displaying sort of masculinity. And so I think that men have to step up first. And I had a, download recently that, I for so long and part of the show, and part of the reason why I kind of got into is I was seeking this sort of feminine love, right?

[00:17:24] Hector: This sort of, you know, maybe love I never got from my mom. And so I get it from my girlfriend and I get this affection and attention and yada yada yada. And what came to me, and I don't know, I'm, just sort of exploring this. don't know there's any truth of this other than it.

[00:17:39] Hector: Something whispered it to me while I was in meditation is that the love that sort of not cures that, but, sort of assuages that pain isn't more female love, but it's actually like a manly love. Like, it's like actually being accepted, right? there's this worthiness thing that I'm, you know, trying to grab and capture and look at me and like me and touch me and all this sort of stuff.

[00:18:04] Hector: I guess the last thing before I throw it back to you is that today I was sending a voice note to my brother and I just had another download and an idea that for his business that I wanted to send to him. And it was a voice message. And at the end I just signed off and I was just like, yo, you know, hope you're well, love you.

[00:18:18] Hector: See you soon. And for me, that's sort of normal because I tell, I tell my guy friends, I love you all the time. And like, you know, it's just, sort of make it a point and it's less of a big deal. What was really like, it sort of meant a lot to me, was like, he texted me back and he was like, love you too.

[00:18:36] Hector: Like, it was a separate message and it, like, I could tell just like when I've had these interactions with my dad, it was like sort of awkward and weird, but they're trying and it was like, to have that sort of breakthrough moment a little bit where, it's becoming less weird for guys to love on other guys.

[00:18:52] Hector: I think that that's something that a lot of guys are missing

[00:18:57] Shaun: It's a normal part of who they are, and so how do we move where a man doesn't have to consider that he needs a safe space to share with another man or

[00:19:08] Hector: I think he does. and that's been, once again, that's been my experience from when I got into, I. The personal development world. Okay. Goal setting and productivity and make more money and all that. And then you, you get into,

[00:19:24] Hector: I got married and so there was the marriage

[00:19:28] Hector: books and you know, reading those things. And I've loved languages and, you know, shout out to Sam and Pat wrote Bigger Love, I'm learning all these things. Maybe that was my downfall.

[00:19:40] Hector: But one of the, key components of that is, you know, be vulnerable and be your emotions. And the, you see, I even see some of these movies, like, , the Emoji movie is something that my kids are watching often, on like the kid loop, right? So it'll be on.

[00:19:54] Hector: Two or three times a week or something like that, or however often we're watching a movie, And one of the, the sort of subtle, not so subtle themes of that movie is like, oh, I like you, , you know, main character because you show your emotions and you're willing to be different, because you're not just a hardened tough guy.

[00:20:15] Hector: You actually have your emotions. And so I'm like, alright, let me just go out and dump all my emotions everywhere. let me dump 'em on you ex-wife. Let me dump 'em on you kids. Let me dump, you know, let me, I'm being vulnerable. and what it did was, I think that was a big a. if we had to call it mistake, like that was a big mistake that I made in my relationship was that I didn't have a place where I could go and process and where I could dump those things on the table and no one is going to be phased by it.

[00:20:46] Hector: it's not going to, because what it, was doing with my ex-wife is, it was, as I was sharing, you know, you see, share your stories and share your, you know, what's going on inside and like, maybe there's a place for that, but only after it's processed. And that's what I wasn't doing is I, I didn't have a place, I didn't have, a group of guys to go out and process that with, that I could remove and hard, you know, not harden, but.

[00:21:12] Hector: I to process those emotions so that if I do share that with my partner, it's not from a place of fear and security or that I'm not dumping those energies on her or my kids or whomever I'm, sharing with. And so

[00:21:27] Shaun: And you describe it as Dumping, but is it, dumping or is it unburdening? Is it, I think there are plenty guys that do come and, share and some of it's dumping. But I mean, that's how you described it. Is that how you feel when you go into the space that, that you're dumping or you're cleansing or

[00:21:45] Hector: Well, when I didn't have that and I didn't have, you know, guys like you to talk to every week or now, you know, because I've developed a lot of friendships from people on the show, you know, a, a really great stable of guys that if things are really hitting the fan that.

[00:22:03] Hector: let's chat, let's get dinner, let's whatever. when you don't have that, or when I did not have that. It was loading up, it was building up, it was building up. And I would try and everything would act like it was fine. Everything is fine and everything is, you know, dandy. And then my ex, you know, she would say something, she would do the say something or, you know, what's wrong, what's wrong?

[00:22:24] Hector: Like, and everything's fine. Everything's fine. What's wrong? Okay, fine. You wanna know what's wrong. And then once again, the, dump part comes out, you know, that's, where it's dumping now. It's less about dumping and it feels more like sweeping, like more is just like a routine sort of, you know, what's there to clean out.

[00:22:42] Hector: And I know that like, if there's something that, like, that's why I love this show. And, and being transparent, like I just, if I've gotta like keep something, if I don't feel good about something, like it's gonna eat away at. So that these spaces eventually, you know, provide this opportunity to just clean out all of the gun.

[00:23:00] Shaun: so this is, a conclusion that I'm making in my head, is that you have, for you, you have normal, normalized the process of engaging with other men in emotional conversations

[00:23:12] Hector: Yeah. But it it took a divorce for that to happen is my point.

[00:23:15] Shaun: that's, sorry for that.

[00:23:18] Hector: Yeah.

[00:23:19] Hector: It took for everything to crumble, for me to go, what do I need?

[00:23:21] Shaun: again, this. Separation of, and maybe it starts with something that a man feels is a safe space, but you've evolved to the point where you're comfortable with relationships and having the, the deeper conversations with men individually or, or in smaller groups or whatever.

[00:23:37] Shaun: I mean, it's something you do, shit, you do this show. So I mean, that's, you know, I mean, every conversation you

[00:23:42] Shaun: have is part of that, right?

[00:23:44] Hector: Yeah. If people were to listen to this, they, my content editor Victoria showed up to you. She knows. She's like, I'm, she's gotta love this job to stick around, because she knows all, I mean, I tell it all on here. but also, you know, I think about that. Have you seen the movie Eight Mile with Eminem?

[00:24:00] Hector: so one of the final scenes, and I've mentioned it here on the show, but on the final scenes, he's in the final rap battle and his strategy is, all he does is he just rags on himself, right? He just tells all of his, baggage and he kind of pulls all of his, you know, to quote him all of his skeletons out of the closet, because now there's nothing else to say.

[00:24:18] Hector: what else can someone say if, you have already sort of admitted that to yourself? And I've, taken that approach, just because, at least for me, I've found that most people are sort of shocked by that level of vulnerability and authenticity. And so the ones that it weirds out great, you know, it's a great filter.

[00:24:40] Hector: and for most people I'm able to, cut straight, the sort of connection that we're able to create. Happens much quicker. And I'm otherwise a very awkward and introverted person. So I'm like, this is a great hack. Like I just, I tell you all my, oh shit

[00:24:58] Hector: I messed up at Yeah.

[00:25:00] Hector: And you just like me better. Oh, great. I've got a ton of that.

[00:25:05] Shaun: Do you think that's an important characteristic of a modern man of modern masculinity?

[00:25:12] Hector: You know, I think that like everybody's bullshit is gonna come out at a certain point, unfortunately, as I'm like, oh God, there's still those, you know, there's like, I act like, oh, everything's sort of like, and I, do have a, you know, there's still things that we, you know, that we think, oh, that's too much to share or that's too much to

[00:25:29] Hector: whatever. but on the other end, I do think that like responsibility is a huge part of, what men. If I were to say, need to become, , or need to embody, I would say, yeah, that there is this, Jocko Willink sort of extreme responsibility that's necessary because for so long I think that we have abdicated it collectively to women.

[00:25:55] Hector: We said you wanna come in and you wanna be the boss? Fine, You guys do it. You guys see what it's like. And then I realized like, oh shit, the amount of pressure that that takes, and I don't know that women, not that they can't handle it, but to put the feminine and to put the divine feminine under that much pressure does not allow.

[00:26:22] Hector: the divine feminine to be, you know, there's so much pressure there and to exist. it's just trying to exist. I think guys need to step up. Frank,

[00:26:31] Shaun: again, these divine feminines and I'm not really in touch with, I just try to look at kind of men and women, and that's why I think it's really important, as many conversations as we can have about, this is how I feel about being a man. This is who I wanna be.

[00:26:49] Shaun: And women saying, well, this is who I'm trying to be and

[00:26:52] Shaun: This is the pressures and the structures and what have you that are impacting my ability to be this way. Because we don't have those conversations collectively,

[00:27:01] Hector: The reason I say words like divine is because there's what society says that women should be or that women ought to be. And then there is, the way that I sort of think of it and that I've kind of come to understand what is, when I say divine, I mean this, unending energy

[00:27:25] Hector: of yin and yang, of polarity of east and west and north and south and like that sort of thing, right?

[00:27:32] Hector: Is that men and masculinity is like a furnace. And the divine feminine is like a fire, and that a furnace without a fire is like what's in my backyard. It's like this old thing that just takes up space, right? , and on the other side, a fire without a furnace is either destructive and reckless or it burns out, right? And so you need the furnace in order to make you need both for it to be something productive, right? to warm, to heat, to cook, to whatever.

[00:28:01] Hector: I think for too long, women, they've been led to say that they don't need a furnace. That they don't need that. They don't, they don't need that, whatever you wanna call it, protection, providership, this infrastructure, you know, that they don't need that in order to be them.

[00:28:16] Hector: And that for sure, they can go and they can, you know, earn and they can, you know, do things like vote and like, that's not what what we're saying. But in the same way that, there needs to be both, right? You, well you can't just have everyone just trying to be a furnace because then there's no life, there's no beauty.

[00:28:34] Hector: And vice versa,

[00:28:35] Shaun: Yeah. and I think, you know, some people wanna be furnaces and some people want to be fire. I. and just because I'm born male, I don't necessarily think that means I need to be a furnace. If we're in a relationship,

[00:28:51] Hector: Right. if we're

[00:28:51] Hector: talking about a sustained relationship, which is, if you've got, you know, which is a yin and a yang. Which is, I think by definition of a relationship at least the one that, you know, a significant relationship. There's, polarity only from sort of, you know, my understanding that that is inherent in it.

[00:29:09] Hector: And so perhaps I could come around to say that. Yeah, maybe you, woman, you could, be the masculine energy and me husband. I could be the feminine energy. But the reason that I say that, Sean, is I tried that. I went, alright, You know, you wanna go and be, the provider role.

[00:29:28] Hector: I will play the, caretaker and the nurturer role. And on the surface, at the conscious level, that's what was wanted. And that's what's noted. And that's what's, okay, great. That's what, you know, everybody's on board with

[00:29:42] Hector: that. And it seemed that despite the conscious agreement or willingness, that there was still subconscious resentment.

[00:29:52] Hector: And also, if I'm being totally honest, an inability to handle that much pressure. not a willingness to handle that much pressure, but just an inability to handle that sort of load of providing and paying for a family. Like, I realized that recently ' my ex-wife. She told me one time, she, she was like, you've been making me stay in my masculine for, you know, forever.

[00:30:21] Hector: And I was like, this is what you wanted. You wanted to, be sort of the breadwinner. I would stay home with the kids. You'd go out and work you know, you needed to travel and like, okay, this is what we needed to do. The kids are two, three years old. It's like, what are we gonna do?

[00:30:33] Hector: You know? It's like, alright, cool, we'll swap the rules there. And then just recently as I'm sort of like, you know, doing this all on my own, I'm like, fuck, this is hard. Like, thankfully, I've got the goal and the grit the willingness and the want and the drive to want to provide, right. But it also, that is it.

[00:30:55] Hector: I feel instinctual in me. And if I didn't have just that yoke to put on, like, man, I wouldn't want to put that on someone who was not built for that you know, I trained Jiujitsu in the same way that like, guys are bigger than girls You know, like there's a frame there.

[00:31:13] Hector: And for sure women have their place and the divine feminine has its, gifts and its roles and its strengths that are often complimentary to the masculine's gifts and its strengths, right? there's both.

[00:31:27] Shaun: Right. And taking the question and the issue of, your ex saying, Hey, I've been in, if you will, my masculine energy too long. she was playing a, a role. And so my question would be, is the role that she was playing, one that was defined by the culture and she didn't wanna play that role?

[00:31:48] Shaun: Or was it nature? And, and I don't know when you were playing the feminine role or the feminine energy and doing the caregiving. And that's the other thing. Men have issues being caregivers. I mean, I, you know, I think some of that is changing, but, you know, the first go-to is women to be the caregivers.

[00:32:06] Shaun: I, I think we're just as, prepared to be loving and caring as women, but we could get Shamed or, or the attempt to be shamed

[00:32:16] Hector: Do you think I can give my son the same love she can give,

[00:32:20] Shaun: I think it's different. love is love. But because you're different. human. I mean, you're different beings. So in that sense, everything's gonna be different. But can you love, sure, you can love, but in those scenarios, I mean, I think it's always gonna be, a little different.

[00:32:36] Hector: I would say distinct. would you argue with distinct?

[00:32:40] Shaun: just 'cause of who we are, our physical beings, it's different.

[00:32:44] Shaun: but I stick by my words that love is love. It just may come in a

[00:32:48] Shaun: different package. What I have to caution guys against is making the mistake that I made, which is happy wife, happy life, Mr. Nice guy. Do what she says. Because, in the nineties, the, programming, literally the programming on the show, you know, that we watched was things like home improvement and The Simpsons, and everybody loves Raymond.

[00:33:15] Hector: And, You know the one with Jim Belushi, there was, I mean the list goes on and on and on. And it was classic hot wife who was very fiery, made all the decisions and dumb bow husband who sort of was like, oh, I'll just pick up the mess here and thank goodness she doesn't leave me. And that was like, whether that was the joke it was not very clear that that was a joke because the joke was on me.

[00:33:46] Hector: You know, I grow up thinking, okay, this is the model, this is the mo. Let them make the decisions, the problem is, is that they're sort of riding on the end.

[00:33:59] Hector: is great in a lot of its regards, what I talked about on the show, that it's like, what it doesn't do is it doesn't, if women are all of a sudden elevated, what they did is they just kicked men out of the, you know, conversation as opposed to, you know, having them alongside them. And so point being is that I go, alright, you wanna make decisions, great.

[00:34:22] Hector: You make decisions. You know, like abdicating so much of this responsibility, and that's what I have to caution men, is that they may want to, you know, do these things. Consciously, maybe they do, but I would also say that a lot of it is driven by society and social media and songs and culture and all of this sort of stuff.

[00:34:45] Hector: , and that's not the case for all of them. I mean, I think there's sort of swinging backwards, but over the last several years there wasn't a mix in that conversation. It was very, very one sided of we don't need men.

[00:34:58] Shaun: Yeah. I'm not an expert in the development of feminism, but certainly, , it rose in some part to, kill the patriarchy I think at its most aggressive. And, you know, that becomes, , to your point, it's a war, it's a battle that is, , probably has no winners in the end. I think talking to, you know, I have women that I have, have conversations with about the work that we do. , And they're, oh, is it, you know, the Boohoo Men Club and, you know, let's feel bad for men.

[00:35:29] Shaun: And, you know, it's interesting 'cause some of these women have 15-year-old sons and I'll be like, well, okay, you know, I'm 61 and you might be upset with me because I'm historically part of the patriarchy. But how do you feel about your son Who's 15? is this his fault?

[00:35:46] Shaun: and do you want him not to have a future? And what's the future you want for him? I mean, my friend, , Dr. John Duffy wrote a book rescuing our Sons. It's great by the way. And he's a therapist in Chicagoland, , and he is with a mom and, her 15-year-old son.

[00:36:03] Shaun: And, he recounts that she said to him, I'll never forget it. it's your sister's time. This not your time, it's your sister's time, and how the hell could you say that to your son? , And so I get it. I mean, I have a wife, I've been married 32 years, and my wife was very successful professional person and went through the ringer with dudes as she was, you know, working her way up to her positions you know, has a lot of, anger around it.

[00:36:32] Shaun: And so I understand that. And then we have a 24-year-old son. We. you know? What do we want from him? So you know, I think it's, we gotta talk I think culturally we need, a new narrative between men and women. 'cause the gap is actually growing and, I think we need to shrink it.

[00:36:51] Hector: yes, we need to go to this, middle place here where we're not a pushover and we're not an asshole. Right?

[00:36:58] Hector: like I call it, you know, integrated masculinity where it has all of the, airy, fairer, what, somehow people grouped like compassion and patience and wisdom. As like some feminine sort of energies. And I'm like, I don't know what women you are.

[00:37:15] Hector: Like, I don't know how that, like, I don't know how you guys thought that women exclusively had that, but somehow that became this thing where guys couldn't be compassionate loving, those sorts of things. , and also I think that not only just young men, but men my age as well could stand to be mentally and emotionally stronger.

[00:37:40] Hector: we can grow ourselves in those, Typically traditional masculine virtues, right? Strength and provision and protection and that, those sort of things. And I, I think that if guys started to do that, that will become attractive again.

[00:37:56] Hector: and men will, again become attractive to women and more men will become attractive. All that to say that more guys will be happier if they stepped up more because more women will be more interested in.

[00:38:09] Shaun: that's an interesting theory. for me it comes down to communication. it's just we're all different human beings and, if I say that, you know, it's about being stronger and a provider and a protector.

[00:38:23] Shaun: I see a lot of guys over the last years that have come to our spaces who struggle with, 'cause it just doesn't, fit them to be the protector, this model that we have laid out, protector, provider, strong man, whatever that is.

[00:38:41] Shaun: , , As human beings, we're all different people. And so many times, you know, so many points in our lives. It's like, okay, who am I right now? But at my core, this is who I am.

[00:38:51] Shaun: I'm, a loving, curious human being. And let's start there.

[00:38:56] Hector: I think that we're just talking polarities here.

[00:38:59] Hector: Masculine is a very, to the point, black and white. This is the answer, let me solve it, sort of thing. And feminine is very rainbow and nuanced and, colored. And, there's shades of everything. Tell the people where I've got one more question for you after this, but tell the people, where they can best find you or get connected with

[00:39:20] Hector: you or some of the groups that, that you guys are putting on.

[00:39:22] Shaun: Yeah. , Men living.org is our website. Again, we do, , , 450 virtual meeting, a year over 50 in-person meetings a year. , And get me sean@menliving.org. , And happy to talk to anyone that wants to connect.

[00:39:37] Hector: I mean, I think that the most important thing to take away from this is if you don't have a group of guys to be sharing with, , whether it's virtual or in person or, you know, freaking cinema, 'em a, a pen pal. I don't care. , Having that place to share is so, so important. So , we'll link all that up in the show notes.

[00:39:58] Hector: , My last question for you here, Sean, is, in your opinion, what is the definition of modern masculinity?

[00:40:03] Shaun: I think I said it. I think it's, a confident man who is exploring who he is on a regular basis, who's loving and curious. I mean, we talk about, we have these five suggestions for living life more fully and it's living consciously, candidly, curiously, intentionally and emotionally.

[00:40:27] Shaun: And so those would probably be the five characteristics for me.