What Most Men Get Wrong About Meditation with Damon Mitchell

[00:00:00] Hector: Fellows, what's going on? I hope this episode finds you well and, I hope this episode leaves you better than when it found you. Today's episode is with Damon Mitchell, and he is a coach. He's a men's group facilitator and organizer, and, just a guy who is really about leading men down the path to. A greater self, and this episode hovers around a lot around meditation and really we don't, get into the spirituality aspect of it, or, he is a Buddhist, but we don't really talk much about that aspect of it really.

[00:01:13] Hector: We talk about , the practical reasons that guys. Need to meditate and how it can actually help your life and really help you navigate some of the things that a lot of us guys are, given to deal with. So I think it's gonna be a great conversation for you and very illuminating for me.

[00:01:38] Hector: So. There's nothing else. Let's get into today's episode with Damon Mitchell.

[00:01:43] Hector: Fellows, what's going on? I hope this episode finds you well and, , I hope this episode leaves you better than when it found you. Today's episode is with Damon Mitchell, and he is a coach. He's a men's group facilitator and organizer, and, , just a guy who is really about leading men down path to. A greater self, and this episode hovers around a lot around meditation really we don't, get into the spirituality aspect of it, or, you know, he is a Buddhist, but we don't really talk much about that aspect of it really.

[00:02:23] Hector: We talk about the, practical reasons that guys. Need to meditate and how it can actually help your life and really help you navigate some of the things that a lot of us guys are given to deal with. So I think it's gonna be a great conversation for you and very, , very illuminating for me.

[00:02:43] Hector: So. Nothing else. Let's get into today's episode with Damon Mitchell.

[00:02:48] Hector: Damon, welcome to the Modern Masculinity Podcast. Thanks for being here, man.

[00:02:52] Damon: Thanks. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:53] Hector: Take us into your world. we skip the bios and the long list of achievements on this show because people can Google you and, read all that. I find that people relate more through, , challenge and through. Maybe you might use struggle or, , obstacles, And I think that that really unites and unifies guys.

[00:03:14] Hector: And so for you as a man, what are some things that you still are working through and, Challenged with, , today.

[00:03:22] Damon: Yeah, thanks for that. it's never far from me that, I'm a person who's in recovery from, drug and alcohol use. And, , while I try not to make that my identity, , I also try to never forget that that is a, , potential risk at the fringes. That's probably the, the biggest one on the list.

[00:03:38] Damon: , I also live in a country that's not my home country. And, , that's also something to stay conscious about because, , I'm a guest here.

[00:03:45] Hector: Mm. Those are big. , I have a, good friend who I trained jujitsu with, he's. In recovery. And, , he actually listens to the show. we were training and, he was asking about my men's group and he was sharing about his, and just how, important it is for guys to be around other guys in that sort of, I mean, just in any sort of situation, right?

[00:04:07] Hector: But the ability to walk side by side with another guy Through something like that, at least most people, that it's not something they ever really put down, but it's something that they carry with themselves and sort of. You know, I have a good buddy who went through AA he really identified with the whole one day at a time thing, you know, and just this ability to get through one more day of sobriety.

[00:04:29] Hector: it seems like those sorts of things where you've kind of gotta go one day at a time or one moment at a time are much easier when you've got sort of a band of brothers that, you can lean on.

[00:04:42] Damon: Yeah, that's true. I mean, I certainly wasn't geared up for going to AA when I put the bottle down, but, , you know, having that resource available, , I. And, you know, being able to just surrender to it, which was in my experience, a required process for being involved with it because it was so much about it.

[00:05:00] Damon: I found aversive, , didn't really wanna sit around and pray. I didn't wanna talk about a higher power. But, , I also knew this as a group of people that had more reps than me in sobriety. And, I didn't know anything about it, so I was better off just to, shut up and listen and, , I'm grateful for that time.

[00:05:18] Damon: I don't attend AA anymore, but it gave me some very valuable tools early on. some simple rules, how to just get through the transition, , into a different kinda life.

[00:05:27] Hector: Yeah. One of the, things that comes up for a lot of guys is That's really the, , entryway into, there's so many other things that is masking or covering up or, , you know, essentially numbing you out

[00:05:42] Damon: Yeah, man. I think the saving grace for me in sobriety was that I, I wasn't dragging any serious psychological challenges into my drinking. , But That is not the ubiquitous experience. A lot of people in recovery, they take away the medicine and underneath as a person who's hiding trauma.

[00:06:03] Damon: And that can be really hard. It can be hard for that person to go through that process. It's hard to be in a room with that person who's trying to figure out how not to just do the easy thing and pick the bottle back up, you know? And unfortunately they frequent, part of the trial by fire of recovery.

[00:06:19] Damon: Being okay with being in a room with somebody who's extremely difficult to be around because they don't have alcohol to mask their more offensive parts, I guess.

[00:06:31] Hector: I think A is great because it sort of provides. this structure, which I think is always, you know, really helpful for people.

[00:06:38] Hector: , They provide a community, which we sort of talked about. And then also there's tends to be a, a semblance of tools and that might be with, sort of the structure, but there's some resources, things to really. to lean on in the sense of, there's so many guys that I know that are willing to get their shit together.

[00:06:55] Hector: They just don't know what to do. They literally don't know. Step one, step two, step three, because no one's ever told them, or it's not, common knowledge, , because it's not these things, you know? , they're not the sexy, trendy things to do.

[00:07:10] Hector: some of them are and some of them catch fire, but generally, most people aren't growing in their self-awareness and growing in their self realization and their self-mastery and all these sorts of things, which I think are underneath all of these. Problems of alcoholism or porn addiction or what, you know, all these coping things are just, they're really, it seems to be identity issues.

[00:07:35] Damon: Yeah. I mean funny up identity because I. this has been my challenge with, you know, sharing a lot about sobriety because I never wanted to, you know, identify, with my drinking and my drug use. And, on the other side of it, I, didn't wanna feel like I needed to identify with being a, a sober guy.

[00:07:51] Damon: there's no denying there's a, shift . You mentioned like little rules. one of the most important ones I picked up early on was, , always have an exit strategy. my wife, who was my drinking buddy, continued to live that lifestyle after I stopped and I would try to go out and socialize.

[00:08:08] Damon: I still wanted to live the lifestyle I'd been living, and I found myself on more than one occasion, kind of trapped in a location. I wanted to go home. Everybody was wasted. I'd heard the same story six times. I was done. One of the people in AA was like you always have an exit strategy. you know, show up late, leave early, and always have an exit strategy that's not in the AA book.

[00:08:28] Damon: That was just somebody with experience giving me a rule they'd learned, and I actually still use that rule to this day, and it's not really as pressing as it was in those early days. Like yeah, always have an exit strategy is just a good way to go into any situation.

[00:08:43] Hector: I bet people who meet you today, I would imagine that a lot of 'em are shocked to sort of hear that you, went down that road or they like, you know, they're like, what Really?

[00:08:52] Hector: You, you know, because it seems like you have gone down such a. Different path since then. So I'm curious about that transition, what that was like and how you were able to, go from that to, now making your life about something entirely different, which I'm sure we'll get more into.

[00:09:13] Damon: Yeah, yeah, it was early days. , Again, something that somebody suggested was they just, you know, said, spend some time in meditation. , I had no idea how to meditate, so I just downloaded an app and I started practicing meditation, like literally five minutes a day for that first year. That was my initial commitment.

[00:09:30] Damon: Like, I can't, get into this, otherwise I'll just agree to do five minutes a day for a year, and I won't increase that time commitment for that first year and then see where that goes. And a year later I doubled it, went to 10 minutes, and then I think like six months later I doubled it to like 20.

[00:09:45] Damon: And, and then I started getting interested about like, what is this all about? What's behind this? And I think that was pretty instrumental in, shifting the person that I was versus the person I am. I mean, look, part of me thinks I'm still a lot of that. I still have the same sense of humor.

[00:09:58] Damon: I do a lot of the same goofy stuff. I just don't do it, , to the total disregard of other people's needs or wants, which was the drinking version of me.

[00:10:06] Hector: Yeah. It's interesting that a lot of people find their ways into meditation. And,

[00:10:11] Hector: .

[00:10:11] Hector: at least for me, I came at it because I wanted to, to make more money. You know, I was like, wait a minute, if I learned this skill, you're telling me that I can make more money? 'cause I saw that there were people who were performing better and I saw that there was a gap that I had.

[00:10:25] Hector: there was a gap there and mindfulness ended up sort of becoming what I think is this base level skill that whether I want to be a better, you know, and at that time it was business leader or entrepreneur or salesperson or sales manager or Eventual partner or husband or father or co-parent now, like all these different roles, the identities that which I have, , this skill is sort of this base level, kind of core programming skill that ends up being used in, in essentially everything that I do.

[00:10:58] Hector: it all started from, wanting to make more money.

[00:11:01] Damon: Yeah, you connected it to something that mattered to you at that time.

[00:11:05] Damon: I love about what you're talking about is not the formal practice of sitting down on a cushion with candles and all the, , coutre mom, but just I'm in a normal space at a grocery store and I'm just gonna drop into this place of awareness because. What else am I doing? And it's useful and don't let me put words in your mouth because you're the one practice.

[00:11:30] Damon: It's giving you something in that moment that's useful.

[00:11:34] Hector: Well, I think the biggest thing for me was that I, I saw that it gave me space between my. Emotions and, and the reactions that I had,

[00:11:45] Damon: yeah. I love that, , that would be called detachment, right in Buddhist circles where you, you've just simply started to notice thoughts as a rising object. Like any object, you know, , there's a ball bouncing on the street. Somebody's making a noise over there. , Within the context of a, meditative practice, the thought is just another object.

[00:12:02] Damon: And it's not, it's not necessarily self, it probably isn't self, I think this is the thing a lot of people will miss when they get too mired in the seriousness of a meditative practice is there's actually kind of a fun element to it, which is I have these silly, unproductive, sometimes vaguely offensive thoughts and feelings that show up, and when you get comfortable with 'em and you disidentify with them self, you're actually comfortable to share them with people and people can have that.

[00:12:27] Damon: reaction of like, that was kinda a weird thing to admit. I mean brave, but all right. It's fine. I didn't act on it. I'm not attached to it. I'm , just noticing it. Just noticing an impulse.

[00:12:38] Hector: Yeah. It's strange that sort of this. self-awareness, you know, all the things we've talked about, self-awareness, , and eventually sort of, I. Self-mastery and self-actualization, that that's not taught in schools, right?

[00:12:51] Hector: That you learn all about these things and you know, you might learn more about how a car or a computer works than you do about how you, yourself works. And to me, it's such a baseline, the. The skill is not meditation. Like people always confuse it for it, and they think that that's, that you're just getting better at like meditating and, perhaps there is value in just your skill of the actual meditation.

[00:13:19] Hector: But it's actually so much else of the result of that or the new baseline or the new skillset that you develop because you take the time to. Sit with your thoughts and get, sort of comfortable with who you are as an individual.

[00:13:34] Damon: Yeah. When when you speak of self-awareness, I think what most people, if you ask 'em if they're self-aware, they'll, say yes, but what they're really aware of is the, running narrative. They're telling themselves about who they are in this world. It's not always necessarily good, and it's often not accurate about what's actually arising for them.

[00:13:52] Damon: The distinction you're making is when you notice a kind of silly thought that comes up. that's the reality of what's happening. It's like, look, you know, this weird, funny thought showed up and I don't have to do anything about it. I think that's the good stuff. it's not to become an amazing meditator, , it's like nobody goes to the, gym and does bench press, so they can be just the best bench presser. It's what that does for the way that you show up in the rest of your life. Maybe it's the way you look aesthetically, maybe it's the way you function in a sport that matters to you. I don't know if bench press was the best example for that, but like, I was trying to think of something kind of silly, which outside of the gym looks kind of like funny.

[00:14:29] Damon: it's not much different than that. it's what it does for the, whatever it is that you actually are. Right.

[00:14:35] Hector: you wrote a, piece that you sent to me, and we'll link up that piece if it's, published or when it does get published. But what was interesting was the sort of mix between, let's just call it meditation and, and masculinity, right? That, those two, if you're playing apples to apples, like maybe those two don't get grouped together.

[00:14:57] Hector: Right. Or like, which one's the, odd one out. those two might, get separated out because, I don't know. But, you sort of had a perspective on that. I'd love to just hear that and, and maybe why that became sort of a point of focus for you.

[00:15:13] Damon: I think it might be worth mentioning that I have a, coaching practice where I'm, I'm working with men. I'm in conversation with men frequently. I run a men's group, , and the topic of masculinity comes up. And so I'll, I'm that guy who will just randomly ask a friend a question about, you know, what does masculinity mean to you?

[00:15:29] Damon: Just to see what he says. , the benefit of that is I'm getting inputs from a, a bunch of different places, but the. The one thing I've started to notice is that across these guys that I talk to is when I push on the masculinity piece, I get a, variety of responses. the lion's share of them are not really resonating with it.

[00:15:50] Damon: Some of them are kind of outright rejecting it, and I've been trying to think about like, what's available that. It could be an alternate way of coming into a, what I would call a sense of wholeness. I think for men who resonate with masculinity, this is what they're finding.

[00:16:05] Damon: if I find something in masculinity that works for me, then I know who I am. I know where I belong. You know, I know how I wanna connect with people. I can even find a sense of purpose in masculinity that's all kind of pre-baked and ready to go. If you don't resonate with that, then the question is, then, how do I find a sense of wholeness in this world?

[00:16:27] Damon: that's what I wanted. That's why the bottle got put down. That's why I picked up a meditation practice. I don't know that I necessarily knew that's what I wanted, but through the process of walking that path came to discover that this is where I'm at.

[00:16:39] Damon: this is where I find this idea of me.

[00:16:41] Hector: There are still these roles to play. And the reason I say that is I see a lot of these. Oftentimes they're late forties to fifties year old men who have oftentimes been married a really long time. It seems a lot of times that their partner, their wife is actually usually the breadwinner and they.

[00:17:06] Hector: They sort of push back against this, concept of what most people might call traditional masculinity And I always wonder whether or not they're sort of, I don't know if repressing is the right word, but if they are not confronting themselves. Honestly, in a way that goes, they go, I'm, I'm not that protector provider.

[00:17:29] Hector: and I question and I go, is it that you, you're not it. Or you haven't pulled it out of you, or it's been beaten out of you, or you've been living in a society or in a world and married to a partner that says, that's not what I value and honor in a man.

[00:17:46] Hector: ' cause I'm in this kind of post-feminist world and women can do it too. And you know, I just saw a video that it was like, they asked and could have been edited selectively, but they asked 15 girls, do we need men? And to a t every single one of 'em was like, no, I don't need a man.

[00:18:06] Hector: Why would we do that? Yuck, gross, yuck, yuck. Boom, boom, boom, boom. And then they asked another 15 guys, do we need women? And every single one of 'em to a T was, yes, of course we need women, we love women, we, and it's just really, of course it could have been edited selectively, but I think it is sort of, , emblematic of the.

[00:18:24] Hector: mindset that men and women, have sort of taken in society. And so for so long, men are like, well, if that's not what you want in a man, if you don't want me to be, you don't honor and respect someone who's a protector or provider. Because women They say they don't want that.

[00:18:44] Hector: So if the guy says, well, that's what you say you don't want, I'm not gonna be that. I can't help but think that there's a little bit of that going on.

[00:18:52] Damon: It's funny, the the man you describe is the guy you're talking to right now. I mean, I'm, 50 years old. My wife is the breadwinner. , So I don't know if you knew that before you started saying that, but I'm like, no. But you know, in our situation, we've also been together for a few years and there was a long while where I was the breadwinner, and I've never been terribly attached to needing to be the breadwinner, but I'm like, man, am I getting psychoanalyzed right now?

[00:19:20] Damon: I.

[00:19:21] Hector: No n no, you know, and it's just, I think it really is sort of emblematic of the culture. Right? And, you're seeing it, now with young men who giving women the fast track to more income. And all of a sudden when you do all that, there's all these trickle down effects.

[00:19:38] Hector: there's so many. Larger things at play. And if we, as a society or, or as people don't sort of recognize the landscape that we're playing on, , we don't give people a fair shot, you know, and all of a sudden. Guys are depressed, guys are single, they're lonely, and now all of a sudden you've got AI robots coming along and it's like, man, we are up against something serious here.

[00:20:03] Hector: if we don't find our way back to, like I said, what I call an, , integrated masculinity.

[00:20:09] Damon: Yeah, I think you're right. it seems like we're in a place as a, population and men being that population where, you know, this is still kind of new stuff for us, the idea that, the role of masculinity isn't quite as clear as it used to be.

[00:20:23] Damon: in that way women have a, good headstart on us. They've been pushing against, you know, classic ideas of what it means to be a woman a lot longer than than men have. , And I think that's what we're witnessed to is, you know, the balls are all kind of in the air. And the, the downside of that is.

[00:20:42] Damon: To what you're, you're speaking to is a lot of young men are like, so how am I supposed to show up? I have no idea how to be in this world. , Admittedly my practice is more with middle aged men, so I'm not getting into much dialogue with young men, but I'm exposed to it by the things that I read and what I hear.

[00:21:00] Damon: It's concerning, There has to be a space for men who wanna identify however they want. If that means more traditionally in a very traditionally masculine way, then that's, a valid way of showing up if that's how they come into wholeness. And if not, however they come into wholeness is valid. That's what we want, right?

[00:21:20] Damon: We want, whole people walking around, not people that feel broken or unsure.

[00:21:25] Hector: Yeah, I think for so long. There was , this box that masculinity was sort of forced through. You know, I've talked about a lot on the show. The listeners are grabbing their bingo card as I talk about my, you know, machismo, upbringing. But it was very clear in my household, boys do and wear this, girls do and wear that.

[00:21:46] Hector: You don't cross that line, when my dad started letting me wear pink shirts in, like salmon color shirts in high school, it was like a big deal for him. I know he had to do some work. I had, I know he had to do some work on that because my cousins who didn't get the benefit of that grace from their fathers and thankfully I had enough of both internal support and, some feminine e energy and support to be like, where would you want? Right? Like where, like that sort of thing. And so I think that so much of the.

[00:22:20] Hector: Guys that you sort of work with. So much of them existed in a world were, when they were a boy or a young man, or defining themselves as a person, they were not able to be and express themselves in ways that they really wanted. And so their concept and their idea of this machismo, you know, Sylvester Stallone, Arnold Schwarzenegger type man, they're like, fuck that dude.

[00:22:43] Hector: They're like, you know, that was, that was who Everybody was impressed. Like they're, you know, the, the leather jacket John Travolta, right? Like this, like image of the tough guy, bad boy. They're like, fuck that guy. That guy's an asshole. Like, nobody liked that guy. Like they all, you know, and so they, they sort of push back against.

[00:23:00] Hector: That and, and unfortunately it seems like they leave their backbone, they leave their boundaries. They leave their assertiveness. They leave. All of those things that they leave all those because they threw out the baby with the bath water. And all of a sudden boundaries and assertiveness and confidence and leadership and direction and provision and, and protection and, and the, all of those things get, get vilified. Right? And, and so that's, that's where I think we're, we're sort of coming out of that. And the problem is, is that guys my age. We swung back so hard and I've talked about, again in the listeners grabbing their Bingo card. It's like the Tim Allen era, right? The Homer Simpson era where our kids are. So, you know, the kids my age are so soft that we're, we're kind of reaching this pendulum and hopefully with, you know, generation Z.

[00:24:04] Hector: You know, there's sort of some balance there, which I think we're starting to see, but it's, I think it's a challenge because guys that you're working with, they have a totally different perspective and mindset than sort of the guys that I like my age, you know, mid, mid thirties, you know, even young forties.

[00:24:21] Hector: I.

[00:24:23] Damon: Yeah, I mean they're, they're as confused as anyone on the top. Topic, but they also have children already and have been through a divorce or some kind of recovery, and the lessons of life have forced them to grow up and, and search for pathways. The wholeness that, you know, younger men maybe haven't had to to face yet.

[00:24:45] Hector: Totally, and, and that's the other thing is like, ah. I was grateful that I found meditation and mindfulness and that sort of stuff and, and really any contemplative practice. , You know, I was, I, I found the, like the back door in, you know, through, through sales, you know, but a lot of people, they, they are only, I.

[00:25:06] Hector: Put into that position where their life is crumbling and falling apart. And once again, someone's like, you should try this meditation thing. And they're like, fuck, alright. I've tried everything else. This is the last thing on the list that I haven't tried and I've ignored and I've avoided. And so I don't, I've, I've yet to find an easy way to crack through and say, Hey, you should try this.

[00:25:27] Hector: , In, in ways that aren't appealing to them, putting their life back together.

[00:25:32] Damon: Yeah. Yeah, right. Mu must we be completely destroyed before we're willing to just kind of try anything. , I mean, it's, it's something I think about a lot the claim made in, in recovery is that, you know, you gotta find the bottom of the barrel. And frankly, the bottom of my barrel is nowhere near as dark as people, other people that I know in recovery.

[00:25:52] Damon: You know, I, I don't, I don't, I didn't spend any time in jail. I don't have any DUIs. Nobody, nobody got seriously hurt. , But it enough as my first, . Sponsor pointed out what that darkness is for any one person. I, again, I don't know if it's necessary. I don't know if it's necessary. I think there are other obstacles in the way to meditation.

[00:26:11] Damon: I mean, if you've ever looked up the, the four noble truths, you, your eyes are gonna roll back in your head. I mean, sort of the entry level parts of Buddhism are. For a westerner, just like, what is, what is this? What am I reading? Like, I don't even, I don't, I have no way into to understanding this. And if this is what meditation is about, it's not for me.

[00:26:31] Damon: It's a bunch of spooky, goofy stuff that I No, thanks. I, I was raised Christian and this, this doesn't sound very Christian to me. There's no mention of God in here. You know, there's no access point for it. I, you may be right. I hope you're, I hope you're not. I hope it doesn't require darkness for us to be desperate.

[00:26:51] Hector: I would, I would also encourage a lot of people to use apps. You know, you mentioned, I think you mentioned that I was fortunate enough to have a, a coach. , But even before that I had tried some guided meditations and I think one of the big challenges that a lot of people have when they're trying to do it on their own is they don't know if they're doing it right.

[00:27:12] Hector: Right. A lot of people. They're doing just fine and they're making great progress. But, but it's like, it's like in, in your fitness journey, if no one is there to sort of point that out or help you notice your, your gains and in the, you know, mental or eventually it can kind of become spiritual, you know, sort of sense.

[00:27:30] Hector: , It's, it's not as apparent, right? You can't just like look in the mirror necessarily and know, oh, this is working. And so a lot of people, they, they. They get like that classic meme where the guy is digging in the, in the dirt and he's, you know, one, one pick, act, swing away from the diamonds, and he turns around because that's, that's sort of the, the challenge about meditation or mindfulness or whatever sort of practice that you do, is that it's like a very slow burn, you know?

[00:28:03] Hector: And you don't notice it. You don't notice it, and then all of a sudden it's like, wham. And, and then. You know, so many people have kinda said the same thing of like, you can't sort of live without it. And, , that, that journey though, that road can be hard if, , if people are going out alone. I.

[00:28:21] Damon: if you decide you want to get better at an act, most activities call it, you know, swinging a baseball bat with even just some good intuition. And having grown up as an American, you can improve your, your, , your swing by going down that cages. , But if pick up a meditation. If you're thinking the purpose is to stop your thoughts, , that's just not gonna happen. Like, the flow of thoughts is just gonna keep flowing. , This is why, you know, to anyone who's interested in starting a practice, the thing that I emphasize is it's not about the results, it's about the time. If you can just, if you can, whatever amount of time you can commit to doing, if it's two minutes and you can just do that. Until it, it feels like a habit because if you didn't do it, it would feel like you've skipped brushing your teeth or something. Well, now you have something you can work on. You can start improving on it, it's not, it's not gonna feel satisfying in the way that many things that we want to do feel satisfying.

[00:29:20] Damon: We get better at them pretty quickly.

[00:29:24] Hector: Yeah. And, , and it, it also, you know, what comes up is that a lot of shit comes up, you know, as you start to get into the practice. It, it is really the, I call it a keystone sort of skill because it, it sort of allows and enables you to sort of. Get past your old trauma, figure out what your bullshit programming is, you know, , undo all of that stuff that happened while we weren't conscious or weren't aware and, , and start to create and craft something that, , that is actually authentic.

[00:30:01] Hector: You know? Because I think once you get. Experience in this. You, we talked about you start to notice things and you start to notice that a lot of the thoughts that you think are not yours. And, and it's funny that you're like, I've, I've literally been in meditations and a thought will pop up. And I'm like, that's interesting.

[00:30:23] Hector: That's not my, like, I don't, that's not my thought. And I've had, I've had reflections where I've, I'm like, do I think that, is that, is that what I think? And. And I've realized that it's, it's not, it, it's, it's, a lot of times it's, it's someone else's belief, right? It's someone else's, you know, something that I'm picking up on.

[00:30:41] Hector: , And a lot of times those are, those are ingrained, those can be ingrained, , deeply. Or they can even just be things that, you know, because you're around a certain somebody, you start to, to absorb some of those things. And, . Meditation and, and mindfulness start to give you the tools to navigate some of those things and realize that you're, you're not your thoughts.

[00:31:03] Damon: Yeah, right. You, you are not the author of your thoughts and you are not, you are not. Those thoughts, and the same goes for feelings. I mean, they're, they're. They're part of the same, the same source of material. They might as well be coming from someone else. And to your point, sometimes they literally are. It's something somebody said to you a long time ago that's just echoing, , forever. Let's, until you pick it up, the, the mind's a busy place. Noticing that can be a bitter resting. The, the, the amount of thoughts. It's not just a, a single thought, like a, a clean thought. It's layers and layers of thoughts on top of each other when, when you really tune into it.

[00:31:41] Hector: I'm glad you brought up the emotions thing because I think a lot of people just associate meditation with, with thoughts, and they think me, it's a very heady thing, and it can be, and also at least in the, you know, in the practice that I. , You know, studied in, in mindfulness, it's really about not only what are you, what are you hearing in your head, , but also what are you seeing in your mind's eye and, and, and externally.

[00:32:07] Hector: But then also what are you feeling, you know, both from a, a physical standpoint and also a, a emotional standpoint, right? Where our, our thoughts are, excuse me, our feelings are. Our emotions are both physical or excuse me, are they're, they're, they're like this weird nebulous thing, but then they're also like physical stuff that you can start to pinpoint in your body.

[00:32:34] Hector: And when you get practiced in some of these things, you can start to realize that your anger, you know, for me it would always, my anger sits in my chest and my, you know, sadness sits in my stomach. And you know, there are these different emotions that have different places in our body and. There's lots of things that you can do with that.

[00:32:52] Hector: You know, lots of, lots of of ways to work with that. But it, , it's not possible if you don't have that awareness.

[00:32:59] Damon: Yeah. Right from the practice rises, the, the noticing and then the awareness of what's happening. You were, you were talking about this earlier, about noticing that the difference between a, a reaction to a thought and then just noticing the thought and calling it out. , You know, if you're, if you're four days into a 10 day silent retreat, you'll, you'll notice pain. And, and what you'll notice is the desire to, to fix it. The knee feels like it's about to explode. And, and, and then the, then there's this overwhelming feeling of this is intolerable. I need to make this better. And by the way, it's kind of cold in this room and I'm, I'm cold and I'm uncomfortable, and I haven't, I haven't had breakfast yet.

[00:33:39] Damon: We've been meditating for two hours and I'm, I'm hungry. And you feel all these. Thoughts and feelings about fixing this current situation? , They're happening all the time. I mean, this is the kind of central to, to what Buddhism is trying to teach. The, the piece that I think is most useful is the, what they call suffering is the idea that. I could just change this present moment, things would be better then. Then I'd finally be happy if I could just make it be the right temperature and the knee not hurt and that person stopped talking to me 'cause it's really annoying, and maybe fix me as a person, then I'd be happy.

[00:34:14] Hector: Yeah, the suffering thing like this, this creating our. Get your bingo cards ready, guys. This, , this hell that, that we create, right? That, you know, as, as Catholics, we think, we thought, you know, that what, what's taught is that hell is some place that you're going to go to when you die, when, when more of a, a Buddhist sort of belief is that, you know, you can, you can create hell.

[00:34:43] Hector: In, in any moment through, through my, through your lack of attention to, to sort of the present. Right. You know, that people end up getting caught in those, those places when they're stuck in the future and worried or they're stuck in the past with guilt and shame or, or whatever it may be. And, , and it's just this, , this ability to, to let go.

[00:35:02] Hector: , Yeah. This has, this has been so cool. Is there anything else that. We didn't have mean, we've, we've gone quite a few places and I, I wanna thank you for letting me go where, where we went today. , Is there anything else we didn't touch on that you thought was, was top of mind for you?

[00:35:20] Damon: Yeah. , I mean, I, I, I could, I could probably just talk your ear off for, for a long time about this. This is one of my favorite topics and, . The, the thing, I think the thing that's important, like just that I wanna capture from what we've been saying is the, the kind of accessibility of this. Because, because meditation can feel a bit, offputting, can feel a bit spooky. There are people pedaling ideas of meditation that are not exactly what I'm talking about. And, and there's a, there's a way to just be in a space and observe the world around. You without sitting in a formal meditation and just notice, notice what's happening, notice what's happening with other people, notice what's happening yourself, and that that can be a simple pathway into understanding, know, what's available to be known, , from a practice. I like, I like that you bring up Catholicism, , because there's, there's this idea too that maybe it doesn't marry with Abrahamic religions. And actually it's, it's very common for people that practice many other religions to onboard the more secular pieces of Buddhism because it's accessible in that way.

[00:36:23] Damon: Because it's not challenging your beliefs necessarily. It's not saying anything that you believe from your, your parents' religion is wrong. You can, you can hold both, both truths as you can testify.

[00:36:37] Hector: Yeah, I'm definitely not a Catholic anymore, that's for sure. . I went to Catholic Mass, you know, for Mother's Day. My grandma is, , still a devout Catholic, and, , we have, we have great theological debates. , Her and I and, , what's interesting is that the, I I was always fascinated because. I got into meditation and mindfulness and she was always someone who was always in prayer.

[00:37:06] Hector: And I'm like, we're doing the same thing. We're, look, we're doing like you're, there's a, there's nuance to it, but if you were to come into the room and I was meditating and she's praying. They'd be like, oh, they're doing the same thing. And so the fact that we have this a similar practice, and I, and I think that as I've gone down it, there is a nuance and a difference between a meditation and a prayer, but only in nuance really.

[00:37:39] Hector: , You know, it's like, it's like the difference in ice cream between chocolate and vanilla. I mean, it's like 99% the same. It's like it's a difference in sort of expression.

[00:37:48] Damon: Yeah.

[00:37:50] Hector: But otherwise they're, they're sort of the same thing. And, , and so I think it is a, a way that people can start to marry these things and, , it's a, it, it really opens up the door to so many other possibilities, right?

[00:38:02] Hector: That it is this, this keystone base line skill that once you, once you start to incorporate it, , at least for me, I've yet for it to get. It's, it hasn't gotten boring both because life always presents new opportunities and a new, you know, sort of, , sandbox to work with. And also it is a, a, a cave, you know, your yourself, your inner self is a cave that is like a limitless cave that I, that people think that they, they can finish exploring.

[00:38:35] Hector: And, , I've yet to find the end of it, you know?

[00:38:39] Damon: Yeah. I, I love what you're saying about the, the more similarities and differences. In fact, I, I often, I often wonder if we're not always just talking about the same thing across different religious practices, is the, is the concept of God really just what the Buddhists talk about as presence, and is that not what's being communed with when one sits in, in a prayer and or one sits in meditation is, is really the same thing.

[00:39:02] Damon: It's just, it's just just a different conceptual manifestation of what that is.

[00:39:08] Hector: Yeah.

[00:39:09] Damon: I think that's accurate.

[00:39:11] Hector: Yeah, I've heard it. You know, I, . I go to a community that is part of the Michael Beckwith's Agape sort of spiritual center communities and their sort of thing is they, they find the alignment between the mystical aspects of all the different religions. I. And that, you know, therein lies the golden thread is in these sort of mystical sex of all these religions where essentially those are the people who sat in meditation.

[00:39:38] Hector: Those are the people who sat in, in con contemplation and said, here's, here's what's emerging. Here's what's what, you know, here are the truths that I'm, I'm sort of seeing. And , when you pull those from each of, each of the different religions, they are, are. Not even oddly similar. They are like, they are basically the same.

[00:40:02] Hector: Yeah.

[00:40:03] Damon: It takes a kind of commitment to being closed off to it to assume that there's not more crossover. And I, I mean, I, you know, I'm not, I'm not on any team. , You know, I don't identify as a Buddhist, not even a secular Buddhist. I was like, I was raised Christian, but , Catholic, light, Episcopal, and I, I find there's, something worth keeping from all of these religions.

[00:40:28] Damon: There's something worth having. And, and they're really, at the end of the day, they're, they're really, they care about the same things. They want the same things from life. They're just using different language to talk about it.

[00:40:41] Hector: Yeah, well, Damon, this is great, but I don't know, I guess my dog says that our time's up, . It keeps barking over there. So let's, , let's wrap this thing up. Maybe there's an intruder at the door. I don't know. I doubt it. She's, she's never that useful. , But, but I have faith. , Damian, if people wanna get more connected with you, find out more about what you're doing, , what, , and where is the best place for people to go?

[00:41:03] Damon: Yeah, so I'm, I'm most active on substack, which one doesn't have to, to, , be on Substack. You, you. You can, , follow a substack, like a, like a newsletter and receive emails. , My substack is live happier substack.com. , I can give you a link for my, my website too. Th there's a, there is, there's a little goodie that I created for this conversation that I wanna direct people to, and it might be easier to just put the link in the show notes, but it's, , , it's just a, like a 10 minute meditation that's an MP three download, and they can take that. Take that into a space. Like it's, the encouragement is to go to a public space, like a park or a, a coffee shop and just, just notice, and it's just me in the background talking you through what to notice. I think it turned out pretty well. I think people will find it useful and it might be just a, a way to, to check out this thing we've been talking about, see if it's interesting than not.

[00:42:00] Hector: Amazing. I have been, , on Monday mornings I've been walking down to the lake by my house and, , sitting with, , it was the Canadian Geese, but hopefully they've gotten outta town. I don't know. I'm not, I'm not. I'm not holding my breath about that, but, , I'll, I'll download that and, and take it out there.

[00:42:15] Hector: , And we'll link that up in the show notes for you guys as well. , My last question for you, Damon, is, in your opinion, what is the definition of modern masculinity?

[00:42:26] Damon: I love this question and I knew you were gonna ask it, and I was like, man, am I gonna be ready for this question? I think it's the right for us to define what that means to us as individuals in whatever way suits us, whatever way feels, , most whole for us as a unique person.