You're Not Buying Media, You're Buying Outcomes

[00:00:00] Kelly: maybe don't put your partner in a position to need to worry about finding other ways to squeeze extra value just to make ends meet on that front.

[00:00:07] Kelly: Like again, relationships goes two ways, right? Like. If you are so race to the bottom and, going after that bottom thing, like you're creating motivation and reason for people to need to do those things. If your partner is doing well and has every reason to give you the best, then you don't have to worry about creating a reason for them to grit you in those ways. Everyone. Kelly McGuire with Vuja Dé Digital. Excited to get into today's topic.

[00:00:59] Todd: Hello. Happy early pre-day 4th of July. Everybody's checking out. , We're recording in the afternoon so we can check out early as well. . Okay, so today we get to talk about another subject that I have lived long enough to see it evolve multiple times. Yet it's still confusing to me the evolution and why it changes from what it originally was.

[00:01:22] Todd: And what I'm talking about is the idea of pre-buying inventory, advertising inventory, and reselling it, pre-buying it in bulk, and then reselling it to clients at a margin. So an arbitrage d eal. And for those, , folks who have been in advertising for a long time, you remember the Madison Avenue Upfronts, , where TV buying took place and agencies would buy blocks of 15, thirties and sixties, and then they would hold that inventory and resell that to their advertisers.

[00:01:53] Todd: And then I remember when that started to make its way into digital. and I remember when I first saw the words digital upfronts. , And those sort of similar things happened and then the streaming services came along like Netflix and then Netflix started pre-selling inventory. And more recently we've seen the, , the rollout of things like, meta, I guess is labeling their principle buying, which is I think what we're talking about or here to talk about today that I'll, wrap with you on. , And then really, what it does mean for the agency? What does it mean for meta? What does it mean for the advertiser? , If their agency is in fact, , involved in that. So to start out, , meta calls it principal buying.

[00:02:35] Todd: Kelly, what's your interpretation of that?

[00:02:39] Kelly: It's interesting, right? Because as you said, this is something that's been around for a really long time. it seems to be different terms that come up. Even get applied to it. But for me, where my head goes when I think about this topic is really the reasoning and the rationale and the environment that it creates when you do this type of behavior.

[00:02:57] Kelly: And the first thing that jumps out to me from an idealistic standpoint is in and of it itself, the practice just seems very a nti-intuitive to what a client and agency relationship is supposed to be, because in my mind what that really, at its most fundamental level should be about an agency really identifying a client's need and going out and doing the work to secure for those best results.

[00:03:22] Kelly: And the fees or the costs associated with doing that work should really go into the effort that goes into that, and that's the compensation model that should exist. Just like an employee, right? I'm paying you for your time, your energy, your expertise and all of that, and that's getting applied to my business. What happens when you look at things like the arbitrage models is it's, agencies trying to find other ways to make money outside of that arrangement in that understanding, and we could argue around a lot of reasons why that happens

[00:03:54] Todd: Can I argue that right now though? I just thought of something as you're saying this and now I feel like if I don't say it right now, I'm gonna forget. But it's very salient to this point. Is it any different that when you go to Target or you go to a clothing store, you go to Nordstrom's or you go to an automotive dealership or anywhere that ultimately that merchant bought that product at a cheaper wholesale price. They mark it up and then they sell it to us, the consumer, at a markup. Isn't buying media at a wholesale price from the, media owner. So, the clothing manufacturer, the petroleum manufacturer, whatever they're selling it at a wholesale. I s it not fair that the agency can buy that at a wholesale price and sell it at a retail price to.

[00:04:43] Kelly: no, I I love that you say that 'cause I think it underlines the misconception that creates this problem, because in your analogy, the end product is the product that's being bought and sold. A media agency's end product isn't buying media. Media is a means to an end. the media buying process is to identify the best opportunity to achieve an objective.

[00:05:04] Kelly: we're a conduit to matching up investment in something that leads to an outcome. So our job isn't to go and just buy meat, buying meat. We've always made this joke before where it's like a ll impressions, all clicks, buying media. It's not zero sum. It's not just about buying the media. That's not the end game.

[00:05:21] Kelly: It has to be the right media. Made for the right decision so that when you buy it and serve the ad in it, it leads to the right outcome. And that's the end point is the buying of the media is not the end of the road. And that's the problem is when you commoditize the buying of media, it skews what we're actually supposed to be doing, which is generating behavioral outcomes via the vehicle of media buying.

[00:05:46] Kelly: And that is one of the biggest problems with principal media buying is. You are inherently creating a conflict of interest where I have every motivation in the world to offload this inventory that I've pre-bought and prese secured by whatever means necessary, and I have every reason to prioritize selling this block of media versus anything else I might spend the time and energy to go secure on behalf of my clients.

[00:06:13] Todd: So hold right there. If you just said that, why is not every other CMO that's worth their weight and salt for any brand saying the same thing? Why is this a practice that has existed for decades? The media buy, like again, go back to literally cable television and the Madison Avenue upfronts in the 1980s or whatever, you know, nineties into the two thousands.

[00:06:36] Todd: Like, why is that an acceptable norm if the picture you just painted is that it should absolutely be viewed as a conflict of interest because the agency's only incentive is to offload that at a margin to make money. It's not to offload it because it's gonna produce the best outcome.

[00:06:54] Kelly: I think it's not really well known, first of all, I think that's what the controversy of meta getting into this game is right now, which is, this is relatively news to me. Like I didn't even know that this was coming back around. Like I didn't think this was all that common anymore and was a big thing.

[00:07:09] Kelly: And the fact that Meta's being overt about it, that is sort of the shocking component to it. It's like, how is this coming back? How is this? Not problematic across the board. Like Why would we allow this?

[00:07:20] Todd: the big holdcos, I would argue whether we're seeing this now from meta or not, the big holdcos have still been doing this. They still buy, we've heard this, we know they buy in.

[00:07:29] Kelly: I don't think transparently.

[00:07:30] Todd: Okay. But, to that point, you're a smart guy, Kelly. There's lots of other smart, you're not the only smart person. Sorry to break that news to you.

[00:07:37] Todd: There's other smart people in the world, right? There's brilliant CMOs out there. They have to know this. They have to. So

[00:07:43] Todd: what is their possible logic be?

[00:07:45] Kelly: I don't, think people are diving, into the minutia of things. I think people are looking at the reporting gauging things off of their day-to-day experience and the reporting and the results. I don't think everyone's literally diving into the minutia of every little thing and how things, I think,

[00:07:58] Todd: You don't think they're asking, what did you buy this media for at wholesale? What's your margin on it?

[00:08:03] Kelly: well, you're kind of touching on another subject of mine, which this brings up, which is. I honestly don't think that they should have to ask. I think that it, it's strange to me that brands would hire agencies where that level of trust or scrutiny needs to exist. Like part of the hiring and decisioning process of who you pick should come with the people you're going to work with in the, you're gonna work with, where you shouldn't have to worry about those types of decisions being made without you having to ask questions or dive in.

[00:08:31] Kelly: Like if you don't have that faith and that understanding, like why did you hire that, agency in the first place like that should be, I'm picking an agency that doesn't just have capabilities, but actually has a business practice that is in my best interest and is going to service me as a client in my best interest and not the zero sum game of I'm buying it because it's a big name and now I have to literally scrutinize everything they do or they're gonna find some backwood way to, to make extra money on me.

[00:08:58] Kelly: Like it's, it is really weird to me that you would, that someone would put themselves in a situation to need to ask those types of questions and not have a close enough relationship or a day-to-day experience where there's a certain level of faith and understanding and belief of what they're getting as quality.

[00:09:15] Kelly: And conversely, if an agency's not getting questioned or scrutinized or put under the microscope, that they just feel carte blanche to just do whatever they want in their best interest because no one's asking the question.

[00:09:27] Todd: I mean, that's just b. To me, I can't imagine that. I mean, we work with really smart marketing people. , They know that not a function of the game.

[00:09:35] Kelly: I would be willing to bet that if you asked almost everyone that I would say 90% plus said, like, I haven't even thought about it. My, I wouldn't even think to ask that.

[00:09:43] Todd: You're probably right. They would probably say, I haven't thought about it and I didn't even think that that was something I should ask. But, so I'm gonna take a slight sideways step, a parallel step to this conversation 'cause I have more questions that I wanna pose to you, , in this. But I want to take a lateral step.

[00:09:59] Todd: About the principal practice of doing this and it being a conflict of interest. And, we've audited, we've done forensic auditing of ad platforms and arbitrage where we've seen, you know, back in 2000 15, 16, 17, I mean, we were seeing average arbitrage of 50 to 70%. . And clients had no idea that 50 to 70% of their, their dollar was going towards an ad tax, if you will, in various degrees.

[00:10:28] Todd: And then the ANA came out with their big article and sort of whistle blew that whole thing. And then what we're saying right now is, but yeah, that still really hasn't changed. But here's. problem or a problem. We run a for-profit agency business. , We have to make money too. , And I don't wanna go too deep into this, but I think maybe what's one of the sort of catalyst to this happening is we're still competing in an RFP or a pitch scenario for budget ranges that, five years ago would have still been pitched at say, 15% media planning and buying commission, a 15% commission. That same pitch today is still requiring that same level of pricing, if not lower. Yet any agency owner out there or MarTech company out there knows that their salaries have gone up at least 30 and probably closer to 50%.

[00:11:24] Todd: You don't see. RFP bids going out at, media planning and buying at 30%. I think that this is a, not that we beat that subject up, but I think this is why agencies are having to do what they have to do.

[00:11:36] Kelly: it's not so what you are saying is not wrong, but it's, being applied, in my opinion, in the wrong lens. Because what you're saying, is true, but it's an exacerbation of what this practice is gonna create in a bigger problem, because the people that engage in this are not y our boutique agency shops or even your mid-size agent shops, these are holdcos that are gobbling up at the highest level. ,

[00:12:01] Kelly: as far as like the buying of the blocks and the, the egregious examples of this. that's happening at the highest level. Now, here's why that's a problem, is because, first of all, I mean, you have these CEOs on their share calls being like, this is an opportunity for me to just boost margins and profits and things like that, which in and of itself underlies why this is not in the best interest of clients.

[00:12:18] Kelly: So no one's gonna say because the counter argument that someone would say is, oh, it's a good thing that I can go and secure the upfronts for you. Now I can exclusively resell it to you and you get access to it through me. That's that whole argument of buying power, which I don't buy into at all, but unless maybe for a tiny, tiny fraction of like maybe the top upper, upper, upper tier of advertisers spend egregious amounts of money.

[00:12:40] Kelly: But throwing that out, the problem that it creates is. If this continues to go up, it's going to make all of the remaining inventory, everything that's not bought that way, become much more tight, much more competitive. It's gonna drive those prices up. It's gonna create a lot more pressure across the board.

[00:12:55] Kelly: And even if you are, quote unquote, a small fish in one of those big ponds, you're gonna find yourself in one of two situations. It's not gonna benefit you to have access to that pre-bought inventory because what's gonna happen to you? Is you're gonna be sort of the leftovers.

[00:13:10] Kelly: You're certainly not gonna get the best of the best that's gonna be reserved for their top tier clients. And you're gonna be where they offload anything remaining, whether it's in your best interest or not, because they're not gonna sit it and eat those dollars. And so it creates this waterfall effect of competing and perception and all of that.

[00:13:26] Kelly: So like that's where I see the problem of it being, it's. Yes, you're right. Like at the lower and the mid-tier level where the agencies have to find ways to deliver value and compete because we're not competing at buying power, we are competing at actually doing the right things for the clients and being able to do that work and match it up, and that's time and energy.

[00:13:46] Kelly: And now the only way that that comes to life is we have to bid in those environments and we have to actually show up and find the right impressions in real time in those auction environments to achieve those results. And putting a squeeze on that and putting pressure on that in this sort of area creates problems all across the board.

[00:14:05] Kelly: And so, yeah, I agree with your assessment that I don't know if the principle buying component plays into that 'cause again, I think that's very top heavy, but the need to find additional ways to extract value beyond what the contract transparently says is a big problem across the board because it's not just principle buying that does that.

[00:14:23] Kelly: There's all kinds of ways that people pad and find other areas to extract extra value, whether that's passing technology costs through with markups, whether that is inventory data costs. the worst way it happens is a lot of it is hours based buying and all hours are treated equally. Whether the person's making 200,000 a year or making $75,000 a year, the same hourly cost comes through. Well, if that's the case, who's going to eat up the bulk of the hours that's being backed into? It's gonna be the cheapest possible labor there is. And then the problem comes in.

[00:14:57] Kelly: In order to force that, then you're overworking. You come up with these sort of meat grinder shops that are just putting hours upon hours, upon hours on their people. At some point, people get burned out. Quality of work goes down. There's a whole list of problems that come into the outcomes that clients get in these types of environments.

[00:15:12] Todd: We'll say that for another talk. 'cause that's a soapbox I wanna scream from. , 'Cause I still don't understand why marketers can't come to that same conclusion that you get what you pay for. But we'll talk about that another time. , So back to this idea of principle Metas, principle buying or, upfront buying or arbitrage buying whatever label we want to give it.

[00:15:31] Todd: You are saying that that is probably only happening at the very high levels of the HoldCo media shops that are buying big, big, big dollar amounts.

[00:15:40] Kelly: I mean the whole reason we're talking about this is 'cause meta announced it, and that's, at the very high level. That's meta going to the whole coast. There definitely are other instances at smaller scale.

[00:15:50] Kelly: Where you can buy blocks of media and it gets chopped up and resold, not, only at the whole cap. as a principle of principle of media buying, it is problematic, , across the board.

[00:15:59] Todd: Okay, so I Want you to role play right now. I want you to put your CMO hat on. , You've launched the, like Adidas or Adidas, if I say it correctly, or Nike, like soccer competitor brand.

[00:16:13] Todd: And it's blowing up so much so that you're ready to hire a Holdco level media agency.

[00:16:21] Kelly: I would never do that, but let's just say I would.

[00:16:23] Todd: Well, let's just say you will, we're role playing, right? , So let's say you would, 'cause that's what most CMOs would do. , You believe you need a big, powerful media agency that's got buying power, that's got the best intellectual property technology

[00:16:37] Kelly: You're really making this hard for me 'cause you're saying a lot of things that I do not believe are valuable in there, but I'm gonna keep playing along.

[00:16:42] Todd: So assuming you believe all those things, and you hire one of the most glitzy, glamorous, award-winning media shops out there, , but you know what, you know. So now, even though you're the CMO and they've said what they've said, you know what, you know, you know all the stuff that we're talking about.

[00:16:58] Todd: How would you approach them if you were the CMO? And so if A CMO listens to this, that's in that role. What I want to get out of this is what should they ask? What should they be cautious about?, or suspicious about, or what kind of questions would they, would you ask if you were asking your big glitzy media agency from holdco X, Y, Z?

[00:17:18] Kelly: I'll tell you the first thing that I would go into that process is I would not accept being pitched to by a sales team. I would want to be talking to the people who are going to know my business, work on my business, my strategists, my senior talent, the people who actually matter the most. I would not want to be talking to salespeople primarily and a sales team that I'll never see again after the pitch.

[00:17:39] Kelly: I don't want to see a cookie cutter pitch. I don't want to see all these case studies for other clients that have nothing to do with my business. I want someone who is going to think about my business, going to digest my business, and actually going to stay on my business after I make a decision with them.

[00:17:56] Kelly: That the first thing that I would get out of the way is. Am I talking to the real people? I think it needs to be a lot more like an interview, and again, the people who whatever promises they're making to me in that pitch process, they actually have to stick around and fulfill those promises.

[00:18:11] Kelly: Not say whatever it takes to get me to sign on the dotted line, and then they're gonna move off to the next one. And then some other group of people are gonna get hired and be dropped on, Hey, here's everything you have to do that was promised. Good luck with all of that.

[00:18:22] Kelly: that's one of the first things I would go into. And then from there, yeah, I mean, look, I, I would want to make sure I understood the depth of the engagement. there's a lot that would go into that. It would be about the people. It'd be about the thinking. I, again, I would want to hear less about everything that's been done somewhere else, and more about what's unique to my business.

[00:18:37] Kelly: What is the approach, how is it gonna be thought about, how are challenges gonna be in there?

[00:18:40] Todd: Think about the media. Think about this specific topic. If you know what you know, let's say you're 25 years in the business and you

[00:18:46] Todd: worked

[00:18:47] Kelly: don't, I don't want someone to tell me about the media they're gonna buy 'cause that shouldn't be known upfront. That is something that is the work that has to be done as we get into launching campaigns. That is something that evolves, that is something that grows. That is something that if you give me an answer to that question today, it should not be the same answer six months from now.

[00:19:02] Kelly: the environment we work in changes and so there's no way to answer that. So. I would be very, weary if someone was telling me, I'm gonna get you the very best media, and we've got these blocks in this buying power. that's not what I'm buying from you. I am buying the work and the intelligence and the smarts to understand how do I connect you with customers and nurture that journey and simplify the process from discovery to buying and how do I use media as a vehicle to achieve those things?

[00:19:25] Kelly: the actual inventory itself is one of the least important things in that conversation.

[00:19:30] Todd: But we're talking about that particular conflict of interest, which we started out talking about so I'm asking you very specifically, if you deem that a conflict of interest that an agency pre buy at wholesale media at a cost. Inevitably just to sell it for a margin, whether it's or not. I wanna know, what would you ask?

[00:19:48] Kelly: I would want to know what the actual difference in markup is and where, what the source is. I wouldn't, first of all, I wouldn't want that being bought. I would want open exchange. The only way that I would accept that being part of my process is if somehow they had secured, say.

[00:20:02] Kelly: ESPN soccer inventory that I couldn't get anywhere else, and it was truly the most valuable inventory for me. Okay. Maybe I could be talked into that being the better way to buy it, but even if that's the case, I'm gonna want to know what is the spread between the acquisition and being sold to me.

[00:20:18] Todd: Okay, so you would ask for transparency on the margin.

[00:20:21] Kelly: Yeah. If I was being forced to buy from a middleman or oftentimes what's gonna happen at a hold company is it's not even gonna be done to direct. There's gonna be a third company that's owned under the umbrella that it's gonna be bought from that creates some of that subterfuge that's in it. I would wanna understand that supply chain and everything that happens in there.

[00:20:38] Kelly: Again, I wouldn't want that to be part of my engagement in the first place, but in a case where you could maybe extract some value in it existing, I would want it to be very known and transparent at the very least.

[00:20:49] Todd: Yeah, but what we're aknowledging in this conversation is that happens. Agencies go and pre-buy the inventory at a wholesale price. They mark it up and sell it at a resale price. So what I'm asking you is knowing that that happens, you're a CMO at a big enough brand to work with a big enough agency that's got the buying power to do that. Wouldn't that be a buying of questioning?

[00:21:08] Kelly: Wouldn't work with

[00:21:09] Kelly: an agency to do it. I would fire that agency and find an agency that doesn't do that.

[00:21:12] Todd: Okay. somehow, you have to get it out in, in the open to know that it's actually happening.

[00:21:16] Kelly: again, this is where I go back to, I shouldn't have to ask that question specifically. I should be able to glean from the experience I have with my agency team, what they are doing on my behalf, in my reporting, in my qbr, in my. Hopefully my in-person interactions I have with them, I should get a relationship with the people that work on my business.

[00:21:37] Kelly: I should know why they're making decisions, how they think about it, what their skill sets are. I should be able to understand what work is being done from a half on a human and personal level, and I should be able to, from that, understand, do I think these people are doing work in my best interest or in their agency's best interest?

[00:21:55] Kelly: If I can't believe that they're doing it in my best interest, that's not who I wanna work with.

[00:22:00] Todd: There's no way you would know if they give you immediate plan that says, okay, all of our connected TV, premium connected TV inventory on ESPN is a $50 CPM. You would have no way of knowing that they bought that inventory already from ESPN at a $20 CPM.

[00:22:20] Kelly: I, I wouldn't know that for sure, but I believe, and maybe this is delusional, maybe I wouldn't actually know this. I believe that I would know whether or not the people I'm dealing with would do something like that.

[00:22:29] Todd: So you're saying you believe in, you have faith in humanity.

[00:22:33] Kelly: I have faith in my ability to read and understand people and have relationships with people and, get them. and look, if someone is so good that they can develop a, working relationship with me and basically lie to my face or straight up griped me and I'm just numb the wiser, then maybe good for them.

[00:22:49] Kelly: But I should be tuned in enough to know.

[00:22:52] Todd: I think that's what happens. I don't think most people know. That's what we're acknowledging here is most CMOs don't know.

[00:22:58] Kelly: but my argument would be the only way that that should happen is if you're not paying attention enough or if you don't have a close enough relationship with who you're working with. That should only be possible If there's a bunch of media buyers and people that I don't really interact with, I don't really talk to, I don't really know anything about them.

[00:23:12] Kelly: So yeah, sure they can pull the wool over mines. If I'm actually spending the time to engage with and understand either my strategist or the people or the account managers, whoever I'm working with, I should have a close enough relationship with that person to be able to know that. Now again, I would where I will. Not argue, but I will confirm with you is what I don't think happens enough is the closeness of that relationship where it becomes more of a transactional relationship where it's just they're off doing their thing. I see a report every now and then we go on a Zoom call and I hear a report and I move on.

[00:23:42] Kelly: Now if that happens, certainly there's all kinds of things that can go unseen and unknown and under the radar, but that in my opinion, if that's happening, that's on me for not understanding how important the client agency relationship is to get the best out of it, that I should be putting more in and making sure I have more than that from it.

[00:24:00] Todd: Well, I fear your approach is a little too altruistic and it's probably not practical or reasonable for most people to have that sort of

[00:24:09] Todd: expectation or relationship.

[00:24:10] Kelly: in the absence of that, I mean, you could just make sure that part of the reporting is, what is the inventory? How's it being bought? What are the markups? And I mean, quite frankly, it's also be colored in contracts you can, it's not that hard to put language into contracts that basically say.

[00:24:25] Kelly: where are you allowed to make extra money? what are the caps? how are pass through costs considered? How are technology costs handled? who is actually my list of people that are working? I mean, again, at all times, you should know the people that are working on your business. that's one of the stranger things for me, I won't go too far into rabbit hole, is how you can get a bunch of unseasoned or junior people or high turnover people working on your business without recognizing or seeing that.

[00:24:48] Kelly: That would be one of the biggest flags to me is if every six months I had a new person running my search or my social and it was constantly changing, I'd be like, how can that possibly be in there? These are things that you should pick up on and notice, and then there's some simple questions you should ask, if you can't do what I'm saying, which is just be tuned in enough to really understand that the relationship you have with these people, that it should be it nearly as close as what you have with your employees, because that's kind of what an agency is.

[00:25:12] Kelly: They're defacto partial employees to your company.

[00:25:16] Todd: they should be deployed in that way and hired as a partner in that way, but we know that that's not usually the case. And we're hired as a service provider, and that's pretty much a vendor, let's just use the air quote word there, vendor. We're hired as a vendor, not a, part-time fractional employee of their org chart, which is the way it should be.

[00:25:33] Todd: So that was the last question I was gonna ask you is, do you think this is something, and I have seen this in contracts or in RFPs, that require that level of transparency that it is required as part of the contractual relationship. Now again, I don't know how truthful every agency business is out there that would, reveal that.

[00:25:52] Todd: I just, I don't know. I mean,

[00:25:54] Kelly: I, I do think that there's a lot of things and there's ambiguity in the language and stuff. Like I said. Altruistically, I think you should find relationships where you don't have to have this level of concern, but, you know, trust but verify is sort of the, statement you can lean on there.

[00:26:07] Kelly: So if you're in doubt, you can ask like, what is the source of these, these inventories? Is there any contracts that are being bought up front? Like they're pretty simple questions that should have pretty simple answers unless there is something to hide in that front. So if, if there's suspicion on that, there's no problem in, asking those things and getting clear answers.

[00:26:23] Kelly: And ultimately. Again, I'm gonna give an altruistic piece of information here is everything I said. Having the relationship, having the senior talent, having the things that you should have. Be prepared to pay for it. Maybe don't expect to get that at some tiny amount of money. That seems too good to be true or, maybe don't put your partner in a position to need to worry about finding other ways to squeeze extra value just to make ends meet on that front.

[00:26:46] Kelly: Like again, relationships goes two ways, right? Like. If you are so race to the bottom and, going after that bottom thing, like you're creating motivation and reason for people to need to do those things. If your partner is doing well and has every reason to give you the best, then you don't have to worry about creating a reason for them to grit you in those ways.

[00:27:07] Kelly: Like it's a two-way street in that as well.

[00:27:10] Todd: Yeah, but the CEO who has to report the quarterly earnings, call and show share holder value and increase.

[00:27:16] Kelly: You just said another thing that creates the problem right there. You just talked about marketing, like it's a cost center. it is meant to be a growth driver and a profit driver. So if you're gonna spend the money, don't you want it to work so that it pays for itself?

[00:27:30] Kelly: Why would you wanna spend the the gar? It's an investment. It's not a cost, if it's done right. That's the crazy thing is no one should be looking at this as a cost going nowhere. It should be. If I do this right, I will get back at least $1 and 1 cent for every dollar I spend somewhere along the road.

[00:27:48] Kelly: That's the whole point of attribution and measurement.

[00:27:50] Todd: And how many marketing industry related articles have we seen Penn that tell CEOs to look at marketing as an investment, not a cost center, but I think it's still probably a 90 10 out there. ,

[00:28:01] Kelly: I mean, look, you can make a lot of money in penny stocks. You can make a lot of money in blue chip stocks. it's everything. Life. You get what you pay for, quality over quantity. Like there's so many cliches that people accept in every other aspect of life. why is this always looked at any differently?

[00:28:17] Todd: , Your guess as good as mine.

[00:28:18] Todd: , Alright, well good talking to you. Have a good and safe 4th of July and I will catch you on the next show.

[00:28:23] Kelly: Sounds good. Thanks everyone.