Beyond Performance: The Real ROI in 2025

[00:00:00] Kelly: The best situation in the world, the best targeting, the best auction bidding, all of that in the world isn't going to move the needle or do anything if everything else leading into that isn't set up and properly accounted for.

[00:00:12] Kelly: If you don't have a good product with a good story, with a believable message and a good experience and a good journey, and an understanding of what's gonna get someone to not only. Stop and see the ad, but to click on it and believe in it and go to the site and believe enough to put in their credit card information and to hit buy and to go through all that. Hey everyone. Kelly McGuire with digital. Excited to get into today's topics.

[00:01:01] Todd: Hi Kelly, it's your co-founding partner, Todd Juno. And boy, we missed can this year. Well, we've missed can every year.

[00:01:10] Kelly: I've never gone to it so.

[00:01:11] Todd: We've never been. So I guess we'll just keep missing it until we actually buy the ticketing and go. I wanted to talk today about some of the stuff I read from people that were there and a couple of key things that stood out to me.

[00:01:25] Todd: a couple of common threads that I saw people talking about as their takeaways First of all, it just looks like a big crazy party. And one of the, one of the common things that I heard people say is it is chaos and it's almost impossible to have a structured experience there unless you sort of already have a backdoor VIP sort of way of doing things.

[00:01:49] Todd: So,

[00:01:50] Kelly: I also read summer that it's very expensive. Even if you get invited to get the free ticket, like the whole, like Itiner plan, it's, you know, you, you really have to do a cost benefit analysis to it.

[00:01:59] Todd: Yeah, of course. But I've read that people that said the networking and the people they met there were priceless. So, you know, whatever we can, we can debate that one. and we should, um, as business owners and whether or not we end up investing in those kinds of things as an agency, what does that really mean for, well, what does it do for us that ultimately does something for our clients?

[00:02:19] Todd: 'cause I don't think our clients would give two shits about whether or not we went to Cannes unless. We brought back to them, here's something that's we're going to implement as a result of going that's gonna be meaningful for the investments that you make with us. And I think if we went for any other reason, that would be a pretty selfish thing to do.

[00:02:36] Todd: But you know what? Hey, maybe that's okay too. 'cause we could just go have fun and that would be all right. But

[00:02:41] Kelly: I mean, I think it's like any of the other conferences, right, where you're, developing those relationships and understanding the latest and greatest technologies and exploring the concepts and yeah, applying it through, again, you have, to your point, the best way to do it is for the right reasons and with the right lens in place to get some tangible value out of it, or just treat it as a vacation.

[00:03:00] Todd: if I just wanna go check out yachts, that's probably not the best reason for our clients.

[00:03:05] Kelly: For you.

[00:03:07] Todd: I said not for our clients. There was one common thread that I thought was interesting that, that reminds me of our, of our existence and why we do what we do, the way we do it, as, as that's often the topic of what we talk about.

[00:03:21] Todd: and one of the common threads that came out was this idea that brand. Still matters more than anything ever before. And that some of the big wins that were had there, and some of the misses were based on the idea of, brands being able to find culturally relevant ways to participate in a customer journey that built more of a long-term relationship with a customer rather than a one-off ad and a feed.

[00:03:51] Todd: And this sort of goes back to, I remember in 2015 when we, our agency was acquired and we were tasked with building a programmatic trading desk. and somebody early on labeled us as, oh, you're a performance marketing company. I was, I still, to this day, I never really understood what that meant. and then during COVID, it really.

[00:04:15] Todd: Had, I think a lot of real time implications how marketing was done, because so many things were impacted by COVID, right? You couldn't go to maybe a brick and mortar retail place to buy something, and so the idea of D two C blew up and at the time, the way the algorithms worked on meta, You really could spend a dollar, in advertising on meta and make $5. and that was just performance. And we saw so many companies launch products that way that simply launch products with ads and feeds by influencers or buy, buy the company. Just really touting features and benefits and getting people to buy.

[00:04:52] Todd: But there was never any initial brand sort of development or affinity building or storytelling or culture sort of building. Things that a lot of people buy products from brands 'cause they do have that belief in the brand. they love the brand, you know, whether it's automotive or clothing or whatever it is.

[00:05:12] Todd: I know you read some threads on this. I read some threads on this, but it, was interesting to see that that was a big topic that people came away with. That in the world of generative AI and the ease of all these things, it's never been more important to. We establish authentic brand promises and brand experiences with consumers.

[00:05:35] Todd: and the idea that we've been labeled a performance marketing agency is, is again, I think it's shortsighted because you and I would argue that you have the analogy, the orchard analogy, which I'll let you explain, but even in the advent of us. Adding to our, company capabilities and services with the development of a more traditional communication strategy framework, which we're now setting up on the front end of all the work that we do, because we've realized that media advertising impressions in market are only as good as the story and the brand and the message. Being delivered to a consumer somewhere along their journey, within the platform that they're wanting to be in or we find them in it all has to really work together. And the idea that we could take any ad and just use the algorithm and use smart targeting, and all of a sudden it's gonna magically produce a business outcome, it's pretty shortsighted.

[00:06:35] Todd: And so now we have to even add more value. To the media investments by doing the brand and communication strategy work upfront, which normally didn't fall in a media agency's sort of purview of services offered. but in order for us to control the outcome and our destiny, we have to do that. doesn't mean we're gonna do all the creative work or the brand work, but we have to have a say in it.

[00:06:55] Todd: So I thought we could talk about that today. I think your orchard analogy that you've used over the years is, is a pretty salient point to describe. What's happening right now and how we should be, or how marketers should be thinking about brand and performance.

[00:07:11] Kelly: I mean, I think, this is where the idea of semantics really matter and can be very convoluted in the way that people use different terms and words and umbrella terms and their meaning. And this happens a lot in our industry as well as in life. But, just in and of itself, the term performance.

[00:07:30] Kelly: Media versus performance marketing, like even that is very different to me, right? Like media is a piece of a marketing engine, right? It is a conduit of delivery of a marketing exercise. And as you kind of go up that funnel, it's understanding, okay, yes, we can buy. Facebook ads. We can buy TikTok ads. We can buy search ads.

[00:07:53] Kelly: But that is a conduit to deliver a message or a story that is meant to resonate with an audience or a group of people that's meant to solve a need or provide a value that's meant to drive to an experience that is meant to guide people to an action that's, you know, and, and so on and so forth. And so.

[00:08:13] Kelly: Performance media is just the ability to participate in the auctions and buy efficiently and, with good targeting. That's one small piece, and that's what I think things get boiled down to and simplified to, which is, okay, do I have someone that can go into the Facebook platform and set up a campaign and pick the targeting and participate in the bids?

[00:08:34] Kelly: that's such a small piece of the overall picture, that there's so many elements that have to go into that being done for the right reasons and as effectively as possible, and that's ultimately the conduit to create the performance. But. The best situation in the world, the best targeting, the best auction bidding, all of that in the world isn't going to move the needle or do anything if everything else leading into that isn't set up and properly accounted for.

[00:09:00] Kelly: If you don't have a good product with a good story, with a believable message and a good experience and a good journey, and an understanding of what's gonna get someone to not only. Stop and see the ad, but to click on it and believe in it and go to the site and believe enough to put in their credit card information and to hit buy and to go through all that.

[00:09:18] Kelly: So, again, the buying of the media and the performance media side of it should really be, I wouldn't even say the end of a road because there's so much that happens after the fact if you're doing everything right, collecting data and reengaging and lifetime value and all that, but let's call it the end of the road of that initial process of.

[00:09:35] Kelly: Why are we doing what we do? What is the brand? You know, this is the Simon Sinek. Why? Why did we create this company and this brand? Why? Who does it appeal to? What problem do I solve? What is my competition or alternative solutions? What is the journey I want to get through? How many different ways do I need to tell my story and educate.

[00:09:53] Kelly: To get buy-in. How much third party validation do I need? These are the things that should all be worked on and considered so that when you decide, okay, I wanna spend a million dollars on meta ads, you have all of these things set up so that that million dollars not only puts an ad on someone's phone screen as they're scrolling through, but it does it in a way that's going to lead to something.

[00:10:15] Kelly: And that has been boiled down to the simplicity of performance.

[00:10:19] Todd: But what you just said, all the things that you just labeled that. Should be done. I don't know that I can always feel like myself that, I see companies doing all of that, right? I think I, to this day, I still see companies really focused more on and wanting to go to market more around features and benefits and price and buy my product.

[00:10:42] Todd: They don't seem to want to go to market on, We're a company that exists in this why statement for this purpose, and we solve these problems. And oh, by the way, this is the product that we just happen to make, , that does that for you. Like people aren't falling in love with that. you know, Simon Sinek uses Apple and, his circle of why example and his TED talk.

[00:11:04] Todd: And I think that is probably one of the, great examples of, and you and I are, perfect examples of this, is that. I fell in love with Apple as a, innovation company and a product development company, not just because of the device that they've enabled me to, to have, but it was in the era of Steve Jobs, like who he was and what they were trying to do.

[00:11:26] Todd: And I fell in love with the brand probably as much as I fell in love with the product. and because even when the product's not fully delivering on what I want it to deliver on, which you like to make fun of me on when that happens. 'cause you're not an Apple fan, you're a PC OS fan. Uh, or a PC operating system fan.

[00:11:45] Todd: I don't know if there's many companies out there that are maybe newer companies that really. Are are doing that part well. And then again, you talk about media and they come for media, expecting media to just simply overlook that people don't maybe have that love affair with, the brand. They just simply wanna buy the product because it solves the problem and the price is right and that moment.

[00:12:09] Todd: And that's the performance side of things that I think we're. Held to is, Hey, my, product is great. It has these features and benefits. It solves this problem, it sells for this price, and we're better than our competitors. And if that ad says all that, somebody should just buy our product. That's the belief.

[00:12:26] Todd: And then it's like, what? Why do you believe that?

[00:12:28] Kelly: Yeah, I mean it's, this, kind of funny thing that we've made fun of in the past before where there's a lot of this belief in what we've called different things, but kind of like this poof syndrome of, you know, it just happens like you just. You do it and it happens and it works.

[00:12:40] Kelly: And, I often get perplexed about these things a bigger context where we'll look at success stories and we take those as this guiding light of, okay, well that can happen, right? I go all the way to like, a Dollar Shave Club, and everyone's like, oh, dollar Shave Club.

[00:12:57] Kelly: Like, all I need is a viral video and I'll have the business of the world. No one understands that. Like the stories that you hear about the success stories, your apples, and for every one of those, there's a thousand that tried the same thing and it didn't work and it didn't go that way. But we get so locked in this example of like the shining light of this thing happened and it worked and it's repeatable and it's, and it can happen.

[00:13:20] Kelly: And, it kind of gets this expectation of if you build it, they will come. Right. It's the field of dreams syndrome. And I'll call it like. And it just doesn't really work that way. Right? Like for every piece of passion and understanding that, you put into your brand and your product, the average consumer doesn't know that.

[00:13:36] Kelly: They don't come from that base of knowledge. they're being hit with 10,000 ads a day saying, You should spend your money here and you should do this thing and you should click here and you should visit here. And a lot of times the consumer just wants to watch their show or scroll through their feed or play their game or do whatever the thing that advertising is technically getting in the way of, even though we talk about, it's also paying for it being either subsidized or free in some cases.

[00:14:00] Kelly: And so that's the trade off, but this is where we go back to, okay, if advertising in an is inherently a disruption. Albeit a necessary, we called it evil, but you know, a necessary mechanism to the economics that we've talked about. Then what is the purpose or the best value from advertising, and what is the connection being made?

[00:14:20] Kelly: That's where the idea of the brand comes in, right? If I'm going to disrupt your scrolling of your, your baby pictures, your cat pictures, or interrupt your YouTube video or do whatever. I need to use that time in a way that's going to make the difference because you are not dying to watch my ad and you're certainly not dying to click on it and go to an ad when you've never heard of it.

[00:14:41] Kelly: But, so it's my job to make sure that I have something that is actually relevant to you. We make fun of this all the time. How you and I get hit with Spanish ads and how big of a waste of money is that when I see a Spanish ad, and I don't even know what it's about, but money was spent on serving that to me.

[00:14:57] Kelly: And so our job is to find the person. Deliver the ad that matches to their needs in their estate, and the idea that if we tell that story and it's compelling enough and it positions the service or the product or whatever, it peaks my interest it's either compelling enough for me to stop what I'm doing, click on it and explore it.

[00:15:16] Kelly: Or it's compelling enough for me to remember it so that in the future when I have time, I either seek it out on my own, usually via search, or I'll click on the ad the next time it comes through because I've been exposed to it and sort of accustomed to it and I'm interested in it. I wanna ask you a question right there though, and this comes from how I shop and what's important to me. But you just described sort of that interruption or that journey of the feed and the ad when you see an ad. we have to extrapolate this out to different generations of the population.

[00:15:46] Todd: Do we believe, well, we know people do things differently, but do we believe there's one majority or the other? But when you're scrolling through something, like for instance, if I'm scrolling through Instagram, I might get an ad for, I don't know, sailboat products or camping products or something.

[00:16:03] Todd: And a lot of times I don't recognize the manufacturer of that product, the brand So I might click on that or go to the Shop Now, feature of that and go look at that product. if I'm not familiar, if I've never heard the brand name before, it sounds like sort of a cheesy fly by night brand name.

[00:16:20] Todd: It doesn't seem real. I'll go investigate the company to see who the brand is, see who the company is before I would ever buy their product. Now I might be. Odd man out on that, but that's where think that delineation between brand and performance still happens

[00:16:36] Kelly: You're talking about exactly where I was going. Right? So if you're successful at targeting. Someone who you can at least get their attention, right? They're not just gonna blow by you in their

[00:16:45] Kelly: feed, they're not gonna ignore it. There's not gonna be add blindness to it. Now you have to think about what you're accomplishing by getting that piece of attention.

[00:16:53] Kelly: And there there's a spectrum of that. Some people are depending on your product or your service, maybe you are conducive to an impulse buy, right? Maybe it is. Lower, low enough barrier to where all I had to do is get your attention, drop you on a website and make it easy enough for you to just be like, you know what?

[00:17:08] Kelly: Fine, I'll give it a chance. It's 20 bucks. What do I have to lose? But if you're highly considered or there's a lot of competition, or it's not new, you may need to think about what is? That's a first step in a journey, right? I've got your attention. You now know my name. You recognize my logo. But you may not be ready to buy from me.

[00:17:25] Kelly: Maybe you don't trust my site. Maybe you don't know it. So now I'm gonna have to tag you and I'm gonna have to follow up with you and I'm gonna have to serve up the next part of my story or to, touch you in a place that's convenient. When you're ready in that flow, that you'll come back and you'll consider it and you'll compare it.

[00:17:39] Kelly: Or maybe you'll look at reviews or maybe you'll ask a friend about it, or maybe you'll, look at the search or the next time I have a promo, it'll lower that bearing off. But these are the things that you're using this media in a journey. But where the brand comes in is your ability to use each of those opportunities to identify you as a potential customer and advertising driven spaces that you're spending time that I can bid in an auction to put a message in front of you that I have a story that's going to connect with you if you were interested enough in my brand to go to my site, but you hadn't heard of it.

[00:18:09] Kelly: Well, maybe the next follow up I have with you needs to tell you about our backstory or our reviews, or how we have great testimonials or how we have a proprietary thing, because now maybe that's the next thing that's going to convince you and maybe I need to send you to our Amazon store instead of our D to C website because you can just add it in your Amazon cart, which is easier than actually setting your credit card on a new website.

[00:18:31] Kelly: I've gotta think about that journey and everything that's going through, but. All of this comes back to the story of brand where if I haven't thought through my story, my value propositions, my messaging, what I'm trying to accomplish, all I'm doing is throwing things at the wall. Every time I see you in an auction, I'm just gonna throw the next ad in front of you and just hope for the best.

[00:18:50] Kelly: Maybe this is the time that Todd will pay attention to my ad and act versus if I know why you should care about my product and I understand your engagement and your. Psychology, I can understand, okay, maybe I need a testimonial ad. Maybe I need to Dr. Bring them to a new place. Maybe I need to wait for my holiday promotion when it's where it's a first purchase.

[00:19:10] Kelly: And then upsell, like this is all of the strategy and the thinking that I think is the core of what brand means, which is media. I go back to this, media is the conduit in the vehicle to allow you to participate, to create a line of communication with your potential customers. But. it's like a dating app, right?

[00:19:28] Kelly: You can't just say the same thing out to everyone. Like you're going to be the most successful by actually reading the profile and customizing and thinking about what's gonna matter and what's my intro line? How do I break the ice? How do I carry a conversation like I. These are the same principles that work in so many other aspects of life, but for some reason they get lost in the idea of advertising because everyone wants to boil it down into ones and zeros and zero sum.

[00:19:51] Kelly: You do it, but or you don't versus actually thinking like at the end of the day, we're trying to influence human behavior and tap into human psychology and oh yeah. We're also trying to shout through a sea of a thousand other people trying to get the same money and attention from the same group of people, which makes it all that much harder.

[00:20:08] Todd: a couple more questions for you. you talk about. Advertising and the, communication strategy and the creative assets and the storytelling and sort that linear journey that everybody goes through. I don't know about you, but when I maybe initially engage, and I'm probably most guilty of doing this in my social feeds Instagram primarily when I initially engage in a product I might be interested in.

[00:20:34] Todd: Now, they've tagged me, as you said, they know that I've shown interest in. A shoe or a, a rope or whatever it is. I don't know about you, this is my question for you, but the advertising that I get after that does nothing more than communicate the exact same thing. There's no other additional attempt at engaging me differently than just the initial sort of, come back and buy, come back and buy, come back and buy.

[00:21:01] Todd: Is that even possible in your mind to think about, okay, from an advertising bid and serve of ads, sort of frequency and sort of linear distribution of that, is it possible to the first time you tag and see a potential consumer for your product? Is the data available? Is the behavior or the signals available? as a brand, you could have a I know we've run dynamic creative optimization of those things for years and years and years, but why don't we see more of that? Why don't we see more of brands trying to craft that journey and story through the advertising assets to a potential consumer versus it just seems like there's one or two different creative assets that are usually made for a campaign, and that's what everyone gets served over and over and over again.

[00:21:49] Todd: It is not addressing the emotional journey of considerate awareness, consideration, purchase and tan, all those kinds of things, like why do we not see creative storytelling? Really lean into that.

[00:22:01] Kelly: I mean, look, you're tapping into the degrees of sophistication that campaigns can have. It's what you're talking about is hard, first of all, but it's absolutely possible,

[00:22:09] Todd: Is it hard because it's too expensive

[00:22:11] Kelly: it can be very expensive, right? 'cause to be granular enough to break down campaigns. You have to have a team that's gonna run it.

[00:22:17] Kelly: You have to have the assets to deliver it. You have to have the data to go through it. But I would argue these are the things that make good campaigns. So you should be able to map this to a certain degree. You certainly shouldn't be a one size fit all unless you have no money to segment out.

[00:22:31] Todd: Do you see a lot of advertisers break out of that?

[00:22:34] Kelly: Hundred percent. No, not nearly as many as should. It certainly happens much higher on the higher scale of investment. Right? You'll see, your Red Bulls and stuff like that that have huge sophistication and limit almost limitless resources in this stuff. But Again, it requires a certain approach.

[00:22:50] Kelly: It is certainly not conducive to machine learning and automation and simplification and, and race to the bottom stuff, right? It's easier to just throw low cost things at the wall at high volume under the assumption that eventually something will stick. Than it is to craft and control that experience.

[00:23:07] Kelly: It's degrees of participation. and look, sometimes the volume play does work. Sometimes you just simply need to be there, be at the right place at the right time, right? Sometimes, you may have been exposed to that pair of shoes at one point, and you just weren't ready to buy you. You were distracted, you wanted to watch your video, something else.

[00:23:25] Kelly: But if I hit you enough times, I might reach you at a moment where you're like, you know what? Okay. I'm not that enthralled in. This cat video I'm watching now. I'll get, I'll go check out the site now and yeah, maybe I just got paid and so yeah, I've got a little extra money burning a hole through my pocket, so now I'll buy it.

[00:23:40] Kelly: So there is an element of volume being able to be right place and right time. it's not like it doesn't work at all or people wouldn't do it, but it's limiting in how much control over your destiny you have. and I think that's what a great. Marketing program does for you is it allows you to control your destiny more than just being beholden to the whims of the market and showing up and letting it dictate whether or not things work or not.

[00:24:05] Kelly: A lot of times I feel like marketing is set up in a way to, I'm just gonna show up. And my outcomes are gonna be dictated kind of by what happens for the most part. Maybe AI and, and machine learning allows me to learn and, and on its own, but I don't have as much direct control over what is the story, what's the connection, what's the journey?

[00:24:23] Kelly: That's where having a really good team that's gonna spend time, spend the time to think through that. Coach you want it, prompt you for it. Ask you for it is gonna help a lot. But yeah, it, it requires commitments from both sides. There's very few marketing or media agencies. That can take that 100% off of your plate as a client.

[00:24:40] Kelly: that's where a real partnership has to exist.

[00:24:43] Todd: I still just, I lose track of how brands are building brands and that without just simply, I think about Coca-Cola, some of these, blue chip, huge brands that are in our world and the kinds of ads and stories that they started on decades ago. Yeah, they are eventually trying to get you to buy a Coke,

[00:25:03] Kelly: I think you're going down the wrong, wrong road there, right? I think that's a really bad way to look at it, right? Because Coca-Cola built their brand in their footing in a totally different world and environment with totally different generations, totally different noises.

[00:25:15] Todd: you don't think that translates to our current modern

[00:25:17] Kelly: not at all.

[00:25:18] Kelly: I really don't like a, a net new brand it's just operating in a new world where, again, you have to establish credibility and how much of that is drafted off of a brand can't. I believe that a lot of brands cannot create singularly on their own, credibility. They need third party validation.

[00:25:36] Kelly: They need social validation. They need endorsement and credibility and belief and buy-in, especially as the younger generations rely more on influencers and followers and things like that. Like, Coca-Cola benefited on word of mouth. The new word of mouth is digital social media signal.

[00:25:53] Kelly: Right. It's, this version of, I'm seeing it and it's trending and it's cool and, there's an element to it.

[00:25:57] Todd: I

[00:25:58] Todd: wanna stop you there 'cause this is my next question. You right into it. I know where you're. Going, but let me ask this question and we can wrap up. Do you believe that then, based on what you're saying, this is the other big thread I read a lot of coming out of can, which was.

[00:26:12] Todd: The idea that the creator, it almost seems like the word influencer isn't being used as much anymore, and creators is the new vernacular for that. That they're becoming their own content and production studios and the efficacy of their evangelism of a message about a brand and a product is almost, if not more powerful than the what the brand can create itself.

[00:26:36] Todd: Do you think that's true? If I wore a brand today

[00:26:40] Todd: and I didn't do much, other than the fact that some A-list celebrity somehow magically found out about my product and loved it, like, let me give you an example. I'd started, gadget a today, but I happened to be really, really good, Fred. I grew up with Brad Pitt.

[00:26:56] Todd: Brad Pitt's, one of my BFS hypothetically, and I show it to Brad and he goes, man, I would use or wear that in a heartbeat. That is one of the coolest things I've ever seen. And I say, okay, great, Brad, I'm gonna give you equity in my company. Will you post about this? And Brad posts about it. All of a sudden, I have a run rate of revenue of $10 million outta the gate because one celebrity posted about it.

[00:27:18] Todd: Do you think I have a brand now? I.

[00:27:19] Kelly: No. So you're talking about two different things. So the creator and influencer element, there is an authenticity to I am invested in this person. I have chosen to follow them. I like their content, their personality hooks me in. I like what they do. And so when they talk about something I. It's like my friend endorsing it and saying You should check it out and be there.

[00:27:39] Kelly: There's an authenticity of believability. 'cause I already connect and identify this. they operate in my world, in my zeitgeist, so I believe in it. And so that comes with some credibility on that and that's why that can be so, so powerful and it's why it's really dangerous for creators to basically push things that don't align with that, because that in-office can kill that trust really quickly.

[00:27:59] Kelly: That's different than a celebrity endorsement. A celebrity endorsement doesn't carry that, and I don't identify with Brad Pit. Him and I have nothing in common in this world. But it's, no, what he offers is recognizability. it's gonna draw my eye to an ad. I'm going to listen, I'm gonna pay attention.

[00:28:16] Kelly: It's gonna be noticed. The same reason why a na an A-list celebrity gets put in a movie. I'm more likely to buy the ticket and go to the movie. 'cause I recognize, I believe it's a quality movie because they're in it. And so it gives you a much stronger at bat. it's an endorsement, it's a boost.

[00:28:31] Kelly: It's a. Platform that you can draft off of. If you are doing a product with Brad Pit, you may sell a lot right outta the gate, but as soon as people start using it, you get bad reviews, bad things, it's gonna die. So it gives you a chance to sort of accelerate your opportunity. And maximize the investments because you're gonna get attention and break through that noise a lot easier, that recognizability.

[00:28:54] Kelly: But you still have to use that in a really effective way, or it will dissipate very, very quickly. So yes, it's incredibly powerful to have the celebrity endorsement, but that needs to be a catalyst to something bigger and a foundation that you build the brand off of. 'cause it still has to pay off, If you had like Ryan Reynolds gin, if it tasted like absolute garbage, it ev, maybe it did. I don't know, like maybe eventually it's probably gonna go away. It has to live up to some degree of the hype that's just giving you the trial and the experience. Chance of, I probably wouldn't have ever tried that gin, but I recognize that I'm interested in it now.

[00:29:30] Kelly: I'm gonna give it a try and as long as I like it enough. I have no reason to buy a different one that I don't know if it's any gonna be any better. So it breaks through the noise and it gives you an opportunity, but it's a foundation to get your brand out there and establish a brand, in my opinion.

[00:29:45] Todd: I don't know where I sit on this. the question in my mind when I hear about. Out, you know, the validity of creators becoming content studios basically no different than MGM or Universal or, Skydance or whatever you want, any kind of sort of publishing and content studio. if creators now, have the ability to become that because it's ubiquitous, right?

[00:30:06] Todd: The technology, anybody can create anything now and publish it. I wonder how brand building takes place through that channel and if you can get more brand affinity created, brand affair, brand affinity, created through the guise of influencers or creators, like you said, people that you know, like, and trust and follow and are interested in, can they do a better job of building a brand for a brand than a brand can itself?

[00:30:33] Todd: Is sort of where I wonder in a much more global macro existential, you know, next 10 years kind of a thing, is, will new companies come up with products and new brands be invented by people that build their brand through those sorts of channels versus, like you said, the old days of Coca-Cola, right?

[00:30:53] Todd: Like that's not realistic To build a brand, maybe the way that a brand built itself 30 years ago or

[00:30:59] Kelly: It's a little bit product and category specific too, right? I mean, there's, also consumer goods versus, I mean, like. I don't know who, I'm just gonna pick this 'cause you're surfer like,

[00:31:10] Todd: boring.

[00:31:10] Kelly: Like, no, I'll use the example of where I was going, right? Like I'm just gonna pick the best surfer I know, right?

[00:31:15] Kelly: Kelly Slater, right? If you're following him and Kelly Slater talks about something that is category adjacent the best bur board or surf wax or wetsuit or something. He has credibility and attention span. You're probably gonna buy into that more than if he tells you about a tire you should buy. Maybe you'll pay attention.

[00:31:34] Kelly: To the tire that he's hawking because you recognize his face and brand, but you're gonna put more scrutiny on whether or not you buy that tire than if he's hook, hawking, a wetsuit that he believes in.

[00:31:45] Todd: I understand, but if you're following F1 and, one of the top drivers is telling you that there's this new tire brand? And they're making the best tire compound ever. Does that? Well, my point is, is that gonna have more brand building power and influence over me than the brand itself?

[00:32:02] Todd: Putting out a message saying

[00:32:04] Kelly: and it's certain, and it's certainly gonna put you over the fence. If you're between two different tire brands and you don't know which one to pick, you're gonna be like, I pick the one, the F1 racer. That's telling me it's better. Who knows better than I do? It's gonna be the better one.

[00:32:17] Todd: So that then validates this thread that came outta can, which is that creators are becoming some of the most powerful content studios out there to build brands. Because to your point, if you're more likely to buy a product that maybe you've never thought you needed, or even if you feel like you need and the brand and you've got two people, right?

[00:32:38] Todd: You've got brand saying, I'm this and I'm great at this and I solve this problem and this is my price. Buy me. Or you've got the creator that you love and adore because of everything about them, and that person tells you to buy it. I feel like you're saying you're gonna lean towards the creator telling you to

[00:32:54] Kelly: In, in a vacuum, yes, but, it's not a universal, right? Because you could have that same scenario where. You have, the F1 driven tire who, it's just the celebrity saying it's a good tire, you should buy it without a lot of meat to it. You could also have a very high technology startup tire brand that can't afford the F1 driver, but is really smart about their ads and tells a story around the science and why to believe and really educates you on the nuance of the technology in a way that makes you go, well, I didn't know any of that, but it sounds really compelling, like I believe what I'm seeing and reading, which makes me feel like.

[00:33:28] Kelly: I could buy the F1 driver's tire, that's not giving me any substance. Or I could buy into the startup brand who's really taking the time to connect with me and make me believe in what their differentiator is. So, which one will work better? Some people will just buy the Celebrity tire. Some people will buy the startup.

[00:33:43] Kelly: I. That startup might not be able to afford the F1 driver. So they have to do the best they can with the budget they have and be really smart and intentional about it. But what I will tell you is that startup simply saying, we have a tire, you should buy it next to the F1 driver saying, we have a tire, you should buy it.

[00:33:58] Kelly: That startup's never gonna be competing that way if they're not smart and intelligent and really thinking about how to. Deliver something different than, you know, all all things being equal, your celebrity's gonna win. But you can beat the celebrity with really good strategy and intention and that's where the brand has to come through.

[00:34:13] Kelly: Because if the tire's not, if the startup tire's not actually better and there's nothing to hang their hat on, it's gonna be pretty hard to break through. In this case, I'm assuming they have something in their product and brand and their why. They started that tire company. That they can get really good at storytelling too, and a good agency can put that in front of the people who will pay attention and believe and buy into what it has to say.

[00:34:35] Todd: Well, I think that is a good wrap up to say building a brand still matters whether you're celebrity driven or brand brand. Driven, you've gotta be able to gotta be able to build a brand. So those are interesting

[00:34:47] Kelly: And making your marketing investments around your brand and making decisions, and again, not just assuming just running Facebook ads will work or running search ads just in and of itself are gonna work like there is more to it. And there's a lot more value that can come from it. If you think about it holistically.

[00:35:04] Kelly: It's not brand and marketing and media in silos. It is all of these things linking together to form your, your Power Rangers megatron, forming up into one really powerful entity.

[00:35:17] Todd: Well that's why I started this conversation along the lines of the idea that performance marketing or performance media is just this one swim lane of things where I don't view that it is. And I think a lot of what came outta can about brands doing the right things to build brand in that.

[00:35:34] Todd: Performance marketing isn't, it isn't its own thing. Brand building is a thing that performance marketing can help deliver and create, business impact from. But if they're not separate things, they shouldn't have ever been separated, but they were for a period of time. And now that theme seems to be suggesting that they're coming back into, the same space, and led by the same, strategic and creative minds, which I would agree so.

[00:36:01] Kelly: And, and, and I'll say it proves out in what I would say the most common gap or, or falling point in campaigns that, that we have struggled with has be been where we very rarely have a problem generating a. Exposure and traffic and momentum and, and getting very targeted, very high profile, correctly people to a destination.

[00:36:25] Kelly: Where the gap often comes up is the conversion, because they're not primed and set up enough to where even though it matters, even though we were able to get a attention. They don't believe enough to be willing to complete whatever action it is. It's either, you know, either the barrier of entry is too high or the understanding is too low, or the alternative options are too well known that we haven't.

[00:36:45] Kelly: Created enough movement in the, in moving the human psychology to, I'm interested to, I believe to, I'm willing to buy, like media should be more than just, I'm interested. It should be set up to leverage the things that move into, I believe and I will buy. And I think that's where it falls in and that's where brand is really important.

[00:37:04] Kelly: It's really hard to just use media to get, I believe and I will buy, it's not that hard to get it to, I'm aware.

[00:37:10] Todd: I agree. Well, hopefully, um, that gives somebody some inspiration to think about how they're doing, what they do on the marketing side, if. Are sitting in that marketing role that they do need to be thinking about all these things. , great chat. maybe next year you and I will go to Cannes and see what we think about all the stuff that happens there.

[00:37:30] Kelly: Great.

[00:37:31] Todd: Talk to you next week.

[00:37:32] Kelly: Thanks everyone.