The Marketplace Dilemma: Maximizing Profits Without Losing Brand Control

[00:00:00] Matt: It's heavy snake oil territory right now, just because I mean, you look at 2025 hottest media trends, retail media will be number one on sort of every list, and with Amazon or any marketplace comes specialization down to like even acronyms, right? What's known as a skew is known as an ASIN and people sort of run with that.

[00:00:16] Matt: So they make it more challenging and they make it feel so different than the rest of your digital strategy. And I think that's the biggest misconception for people. And I think that's the biggest thing that I try to help people get over, at the end of the day, just think about Amazon as an example. It's really just a fulfillment change for your customer, right?

[00:00:59] Kelly: Everyone, Kelly McGuire, co founder of Vuja Dé Digital, and I'm excited to talk to today's guest.

[00:01:04] Todd: Hey everybody, this is Todd Kelly's partner and today we do have a guest and he is a new team member of Vuja Dé Digital and we're excited to have Matt Crincoli. Join us because we are going to kick around the idea of digital marketplaces and what it means, or does it mean to enter into a digital marketplace, if you are a brand trying to sell a product.

[00:01:26] Todd: Background qualifications for Matt. I'm just going to brag a little bit for you, Matt. Matt recently joined us from working in house in e commerce at Amazon. So he has a well qualified credential to talk about the world of Amazon. Prior to that, he was at Walmart, so he has another very valid set of credentials to talk about another retail marketplace.

[00:01:47] Todd: And prior to that, Matt was head of e commerce and sales in D2C for brands such as Huckberry and Charlotte's Web, and Nutrafol. So, a really cool, deep bench of experience, Matt. And point of view that you bring to the table to pair well with Kelly's expertise. And so it's super great to have you on the team, great to have you on the podcast.

[00:02:07] Todd: And today we're going to try and grill you and get your perspectives on what you've seen out there relative to all these digital marketplaces, how to brands need to think about them, what are the common pitfalls and trip ups that are being sold out there, and how does all this work. And Kelly, I know you have a bunch of questions you want to throw at Matt to see what he can say about him. So Matt, welcome. Introduce yourself. Say hello.

[00:02:31] Matt: Awesome. Thanks for having you guys. I'm not sure I can beat that introduction, but yeah, I'm a big believer in marketplace. I think what makes me unique in that field is I've always worked on marketplace strategy in conjunction with D2C and really believe that those two things are like deeply connected, and the more cohesive they can be, the better for your customer and the better for your business.

[00:02:47] Matt: So, throw some questions at me. I'm going to try to identify all the snake oil in the area. There's a lot of it right now is this is like the hottest area within digital media right now is retail media. So excited to share some knowledge.

[00:02:58] Todd: Kelly. What do you want to know?

[00:02:59] Kelly: Yeah, I think the easiest thing to start out to set the stage here is, if you want to spend a little bit of time in here kind of defining what marketplace mean to you, and what should it mean to brands, and how should brands really be thinking about whether or not it is a part of their business or should be a part of their business. And I think once we define that, we can go through some of that nuance.

[00:03:18] Matt: No, it's a great question. And that's we actually had a funny chat earlier, what is marketplace even so it's a good place to start. But marketplace in my opinion is really any other selling avenue other than your native digital site. So the big ones are obviously Walmart, Amazon, Sephora for beauty brands, but there's obviously a lot of smaller niche ones that have come up.

[00:03:33] Matt: Tick Tock shop is like one of the hottest, most emerging ones. Then a lot of businesses use drop shippers as well. So there's a lot of kind of smaller emerging players. And, every year that changes, so there's always more people to the party every year and these businesses keep innovating more and more to make it easier for you to list not only in one, but on multiple too, and measure across multiple.

[00:03:51] Matt: So, I think for me, what makes sense with it and why and when is always the number one question for brands and I think marketplace makes sense for everybody. Once there's a degree of infrastructure in the business, right? If you're starting out, you're still getting your supply chain together and getting fulfillment together and even your native digital site.

[00:04:09] Matt: It doesn't make sense to snap Amazon immediately, but a lot of businesses eventually are going to think, Oh man, how can we go after and get more customers? How can we qualify our brand? How do we meet more people in different countries? A lot of different use cases for like when that opens up.

[00:04:20] Kelly: I think it's really interesting because it almost feels, I don't know if it's full circle or an evolution or the right way to think about it, but it feels like a few years ago, especially in the heyday of meta and pre iOS 14.5, everything was all about that direct consumer and that pipeline and being able to shorten that cycle and generate dollars so fast.

[00:04:37] Kelly: And it feels like that got very disrupted and it took a little while for people to kind of catch up and accept the reality of there's not this printing press of money before. I think Todd and I talked about this on other episodes. And now there's this idea of marketplace and the diversification of kind of human behavior and discovery and where people are engaging in all of that.

[00:04:54] Kelly: So, given that you have walked that line of direct consumer and marketplace, how has that evolution sort of played out? What was the D2C environment before? And then how is marketplace come in and disrupted that and really change the way that brands need to think about being able to reach their customers and sell their products efficiently to them.

[00:05:11] Matt: That's a really good comparison with the meta piece. I think what happens in our industry is the playbook is built, people adopt it, and then it's challenged, right? And you obviously can't have the same playbook as everybody. I think what's happened within that playbook is the economics of not participating in marketplace has changed, where now it makes more sense to incorporate some of these other channels into your mix, primarily because if you think about shoppers and you think about how people are purchasing more and more share of that wall it's been going over to Amazon in the last 10 years. If you think about Amazon is finally beating Walmart from a revenue perspective. I think it was just like the news this past month, there's just an abundance of customers there.

[00:05:46] Matt: And if you think about it, again, I always come back to like me as a customer, I was looking at a new pair of Adidas earlier. We're going to a conference together next week. I need a new pair of sneaks. Todd, I'm copying your Adidas. But I was like, man, where am I going to buy these? I need paper towels too. I'm gonna need to buy these off Amazon so I can throw everyone together. So if you think about what's happened with Marketplace, I think you follow the customers.

[00:06:05] Matt: There's more people there, purchase behaviors going that direction. So brands are getting in the mix. And to your question of what's changed maybe in the last couple years, is there's been a tremendous amount of innovation on the advertising front. And how can you really control traffic there as well as there's just more and more players, Tick Tock shop was not on people's radars three years ago, but now it's maybe one of the number one conversations in marketplace.

[00:06:25] Matt: So long winded answer, but if you follow your customers and you follow where innovation is in the industry, it's all going towards marketplace and retail media.

[00:06:33] Todd: Do you have a follow up? Because I have a follow up to this.

[00:06:35] Kelly: Please go ahead.

[00:06:35] Todd: So one of the biggest business question marks that seems to hit our desk when prior to you joining Matt, Kelly and I always had to sort of scratch our heads and think about was when brands would come to us and ask us about whether or not Amazon should be a strategy in their sales channels, right?

[00:06:53] Todd: Do they add Amazon? Do they go to Amazon and, or they're already there, but they can't figure it out. And the biggest problem that we got presented with over the last few years was, I don't really want to sell on Amazon, it's a necessary evil because like you said, the customer is already there, it's easy to add to bag or add to cart because I'm just there, my credit card is easy and I've got prime and it's going to show up in two days.

[00:07:15] Kelly: And there's a trust factor. I mean, you're already there.

[00:07:18] Todd: Trust factor, but the brands are losing significant margin because of that. And so Kelly and I would always get asked the question, should I do Amazon? Should I stay on Amazon? Is it worth the margin that I'm losing?

[00:07:28] Todd: I don't have first good first party customer data gathering in that. So from a business standpoint, I think one of the topics you wanted to talk about is when and why do you consider these marketplaces, when are they beneficial and why are they beneficial?

[00:07:42] Matt: That's an important like the timing of marketplace, I think is everything if you're too early, you get overwhelmed by sort of the operational restrictions. If you're too late, you're just going to be scratching the surface and you might be getting beat by your competitors. But for me, the when is always answered by the one complex element of Amazon or marketplace or really activating anything else other than your main digital site, is the logistical challenges, inventory, shipping, fulfillment, cost and stuff there, right?

[00:08:08] Matt: If you don't think through a lot of those structural things, it's going to be tough to scale your business. You'll run out of stock, you'll lose the buy box. There's a lot of negatives that come with coming too early. So if your business is in a position where you're doing well digitally and you have a lot of what I'm calling infrastructure in place, it can make sense to begin testing on Amazon. And here's like another pitfall that I see people getting into, is they go too big, they go too wide, they take a breath and not a depth strategy. And that's really important because again, when you're running a digital business, things can happen any day, right?

[00:08:33] Matt: Some days there's a fire drill on this thing, some days there isn't. But when you're thinking about Amazon, if you can kind of start small with a core product strategy and really test and learn within that, you're going to avoid yourself a lot of sort of headache at doing that across a full catalog.

[00:08:46] Matt: So typically when I'm working with a business and I'm thinking, does Amazon make sense? My first check is always, do you have a lot of the pieces in place from an operations and logistics front for this to be viable? But then also it's like within a brand's product category and assortment, is there a little pocket that we can go after that might make sense to that customer?

[00:09:04] Matt: There's other ways to think about it to like price is a big thing. Could I see myself adding this to cart with other sort of CPG products? If you're selling a $45,000 car, it's not going to make as much sense, but if you're selling a consumer good in the beauty category or something where there's already shopper behavior there, it can make a ton of sense.

[00:09:20] Matt: But again, is our business set up logistically so that we're not going to be creating more of an operational headache and not getting as much benefit out of a marketplace?

[00:09:27] Kelly: So I think it creates a really interesting dynamic, and I've seen this before in different iterations of the space and digital evolutions. Anytime there's a big opportunity, anytime there's a lot of buzz and momentum behind something, but a lot of complexity and lack of knowledge and understanding, it creates a very easy environment for people taking advantage or really maybe selling things that are hyped up and not necessarily necessary.

[00:09:52] Kelly: And I think it easily creates this ability for people needing so badly to jump in and find a solution that it can be hard to sort through noise and those buzzwords and that hyperbole to really get to something that's meaningful for your business. Are you seeing that in this space with this opportunity here? And how would you suggest brands navigate that?

[00:10:10] Matt: It's heavy snake oil territory right now, just because I mean, you look at 2025 hottest media trends, retail media will be number one on sort of every list, and with Amazon or any marketplace comes specialization down to like even acronyms, right? What's known as a skew is known as an ASIN and people sort of run with that.

[00:10:27] Matt: So they make it more challenging and they make it feel so different than the rest of your digital strategy. And I think that's the biggest misconception for people. And I think that's the biggest thing that I try to help people get over, at the end of the day, just think about Amazon as an example. It's really just a fulfillment change for your customer, right? What's important in your digital site is really best in class content that really shows your value proposition cleanly and in emotionally connected way. You want to make sure that you've got a great compelling assortment and then you want to make sure you're driving media to traffic and creating excitement.

[00:10:56] Matt: It's the same thing that works on Amazon, it's just named a different way. And maybe oversimplifying some complexities and reporting and things like that ,but the spirit of selling on marketplace is the same spirit is selling digitally in any channel. And that's my big thing is a lot of people are going to tell you a different story there so you can rack up a lot of hours and deep consulting fees. But my belief is if you know your digital business and you know your customer with a little bit of help of translating that to Amazon, anybody can play. And, I think it's only gonna get easier too, a lot of the innovation and the reason why so many dollars are flowing through to marketplaces is they're making it easier and easier to list and activate in multiple countries, that's like a big thing that I worked on in Amazon, was making it easier for US based seller to actually list in multiple countries overseas too, as opposed to hiring a dropship or anything like that. So it's only gonna get easier and I think maybe getting it even less different than your digital site in the years to come.

[00:11:44] Kelly: I agree with that. I think that's one of the reasons why we're so excited to have your skill set on board, which is, I think it's a piece of what a business or a lot of businesses have to think about. It's not necessarily this completely unique and separated thing, but it is part of the overall picture, which is what Todd and I talk a lot about in the way that marketing engagements and relationships should be entered into, it should be the big picture and the overall what we're trying to achieve and what consumer behaviors are and then working your way back into how do you leverage media as one of the levers you can pull to generate exposure and storytelling and information exchange, so that someone knows what they need to know, is aware, is educated, can make those right decisions.

[00:12:24] Kelly: And it sounds to me a lot like marketplace is just one of those journeys, one of those options for completion of that ultimate goal that you can be going into. And so the ability to understand how those work and where they play, I think, becomes really important. It takes me down to a conversation we've had with a lot of these clients where, we'll start with some of these direct consumer brands and, of course, owning that customer journey and that behavior, whether it's the economics of it or just that first party data is so wonderful.

[00:12:47] Kelly: But we have conversations with them of, you can spend a lot of money and a lot of time and energy trying to get people to shift over, understand your name, remember your website, click on your ad, go to your site, trust it, believe whether or not they want to add it to cart, add in all their credit card information to a brand new site, do they believe it?

[00:13:05] Kelly: That's a big barrier asking people for quite a lot of change in habit and behavior, versus I'm already on Amazon, I've discovered it, I've got some reviews, I'm adding it, as you said, amongst my paper towels and my other things, it's a convenience factor. And so we constantly have to have these conversations with our clients to say, think about what you're asking of people, you're asking them for a lot more time, a lot more energy, a lot more trust.

[00:13:26] Kelly: And so what is that value exchange versus is it easier to generate that initial exposure on Amazon, get that trial, if you will, get your product in hand, get some of it there, and then maybe migrate them to your own experience in your own environment, if that is something they're open to.

[00:13:41] Kelly: Or maybe they aren't always going to be more valuable on Amazon and even though there's maybe a profit exchange there, your acquisition of resale and upsell actually offsets that convenience factor in that lifetime value. So I kind of set it up for a lot of that, but how do you think about the utilization of a marketplace as a first touch with customers versus the long term engine to it, versus the economic change that it creates on how much can I afford for customer acquisition if I'm giving up a decent percentage of my profits to that marketplace for facilitating it.

[00:14:09] Todd: I want to add a part B to that. What Kelly just said, part B is what if I'm a brand and in this case, assume I'm an established brand, relatively established brand, I'm not brand new, but I'm a brand, I've yet to enter these marketplaces, I've sold either retail brick and mortar retail or dot com D2C whatever. Part B is, what if I don't want to enter those marketplaces? Part B question is that a death blow to be a brand and just simply for whatever reason, decide that I'm just not going to sell my product on Amazon? I don't want to, because I think it could cheapen the brand, I don't like Amazon, so I'm just not going to give them that opportunity. I don't care if it hurts my sales. Is there a world where you're a brand, part B of this answer to where you can shun the marketplaces and that's an okay strategy? Super curious about that as part B.

[00:15:00] Matt: Maybe the only person who worked at Amazon will say, yes, there's definitely businesses that don't fit on Amazon and do actually hurt brands. I think if you think about a lot of premium businesses that have a ton of brand equity, long form content and need a lot of creative control over that, as well as have a strategy of exclusivity, I think that might prevent you from doing some of these marketplaces, specifically Amazon and Walmart.

[00:15:22] Matt: But might make you want to tap into things like Tick Tock shop as they get more premium. However, I think the majority of businesses do miss out and they miss out on the convenience factor and they miss out on a qualification angle to just being present on that shelf, I think, has a lot of power for people.

[00:15:36] Matt: This week I was looking at a business that had a massive surge on their Amazon business and we're sort of scratching our heads, what actually happened in reality, they were put on a list, which is like a best of Amazon list that only list Amazon brands because they have to keep it equal in between all these different products.

[00:15:51] Matt: So there's so much that happens, from like a halo effect of just being on that shelf and the compounding time of getting there and running ads and getting placements on these lists that you do miss out, but again, it all works back from here customer who your product is. And sometimes that might not make sense for people in it.

[00:16:05] Matt: And I think my delineation there is generally price points, premium and how careful of an experience they want to have, right? But for a lot of these CPG brands, beauty, a lot of things in that field, it makes more sense because also there's a lot more I think innovation to if you think about beauty for particularly a lot of people wonder like what's happening there, why are all these brands? Why is La Mer having a storefront on Amazon is because Amazon has invested a ton in keeping a lot of this premium presentation for a lot of these brands now too. So again, back to my point earlier, that's going to get easier and easier and Amazon is just going to get over all these hurdles.

[00:16:36] Matt: They're actually probably going to solve for a lot of those experiences in the next coming years to make so that brands can have a premium placement on that shelf. But, that's my delineation and a little bit of honesty that it doesn't work for everybody, but I think for the majority of businesses that we service, it's like an essential, it's just, again, is it the right time?

[00:16:52] Kelly: I will say there has been products that I have looked up and was only willing to buy on Amazon and they didn't sell on Amazon and I didn't buy it. I mean, it's not all that often, but don't even understand why exactly I've had that experience, I can't remember, but I've had ones where I'm like, Oh, if they sell on Amazon, I'll go ahead and buy it, if not, I don't want it bad enough to like, go through a whole brand new website and get my information, all of that. So, I think there's experiences where that happens.

[00:17:14] Matt: Definitely those early stage brands that are still, really focused on acquisition, it makes so much sense, but , you're on the shelf next to huge players that immediately qualify for brand too, which is really hard to do on your own native site.

[00:17:24] Todd: Okay. Then I have a part C to that question, Kelly, I know you have more to go here, Kelly, but let me add a part C because we've asked been asked this multiple times as well. Brand X says we've been selling on Amazon and it's great, but we want to pull back from Amazon because the margins are too much and we want to recapture those customers on our D2C dot com. And so we want a strategy for pulling away from these third party marketplaces. What's your take on that?

[00:17:50] Kelly: So I think that sets up what my final question is for you, Matt, and I'll kind of lay it in, cause I think you can go through and carry all of that in. So remember what Todd said here. Because what I was going to ask you is in this world of fragmented user experience and where people have choices to go and convert, how does the existence of marketplace in your mind change the way that brands need to market and advertiser their consumers?, whether that is giving them options, whether that's targeting them differently, whether that's segmenting by behaviors.

[00:18:15] Kelly: Because in my mind, a part of the answer to Todd's question is, you have to understand what your consumer is willing to do, what their profile is, what value you can offer off of that. If you're going to ask them to give up the convenience of Amazon for your own benefit, what are you going to offer an exchange? Is it going to be cheaper? Are you going to give a gift? Are you going to be on top of, you have to think about that value exchange. So yeah, if you can roll in your answer to Todd's question with your bigger approach of how to shift advertising in the face of the existence of marketplaces, I think that's kind of where my head goes to wrap up.

[00:18:43] Matt:  Yeah. To be fair, that might've been part of your part A question too. So the part A, B and C, I think. But again, I try to call this out in the beginning, but I've really been someone who has worked on marketplace in conjunction with the main digital business, which I'm finding is more and more unique, because a lot of people just specialize within Amazon or Walmart or just retail media as a whole.

[00:19:02] Matt: But I think it's a great question because this is really where you can kind of control that experience. You ultimately have agency as a brand to determine what and where you want people to go and having two touch points of Amazon and your own digital site gives you a lot of freedom to do stuff like that.

[00:19:16] Matt: So when you're thinking about like acquisition, retention and a subscription business, for example, it's really, really important to figure out what Amazon calls selection, which is again, more snake oil, what is selection? Selections, it's just assortment. It's just a different word. It's part of the Amazon flywheel, which is like selection content advertising just goes in a circle, right?

[00:19:33] Matt: So when you think about selection or you think about assortment and why and how to make this exclusive and why to make Amazon a certain way, a lot of businesses that I see will keep Amazon as an acquisition channel on their core products that they're able to stock deeply on FBA so that you get the benefits of shipping and you really can control inventory.

[00:19:50] Matt: But then all of the other things that a customer is going to want behind that core product to that acquisition product, or the benefits of subscription business, it's going to be in their digital. So they're using Amazon as a way to attract customers, but they're leaving so much more for those customers to want that they're eventually going to need to go to their digital business for cost savings, for additional products, for perks, for content, all of those different things.

[00:20:10] Matt: Adversely, some people are like, we're killing it, we're doing really well, we have an amazing ROAS on our ads. We're doing well, let's continue to load up. They might actually say, Hey, look, let's match. Let's have the same exact product strategy, the same exact value offer, just because we know more of our customers are going to prefer to shop on Amazon.

[00:20:25] Matt: So there's different ways to do it. And so ultimately it's again, it might sound like a BS answer is every business has the agency to make a decision on how and when they want to use Amazon, and how to use it in reflection of their own digital site. Another way, just because these are like key months as we're coming up to, it is Prime Day is coming up in June and July, so a lot of businesses will also sprint seasonally to try to get Amazon business and then pulse off a little bit and run more things through their direct channels too.

[00:20:50] Matt: So there's a lot of different ways to do it. I think it's all about finding a balance of what works for your specific product, what works for your customer, what works for your internal teams too, that's the resourcing and the infrastructure is such a big piece. But ultimately, you can pick and match whatever works for you in that moment, in that year or for you as a specific brand. You just have to do that exploration up front.

[00:21:08] Kelly: I think that makes perfect sense. Again, it's part of our new reality thinking about it from the advertising perspective and ,using understanding that the whole point of advertising is to generate awareness and generate behavioral change, right? Getting people into something.

[00:21:19] Kelly: Well, we have always known, and especially in these last few years, and then the newer generations are becoming more and more reliant upon it. The whole influencer community, and recommendations and the new digital versions of word of mouth. And I know Amazon affiliate is a thing, and we've talked a lot about Amazon, but we also mentioned things like Tik Tok shop and where that's gone and blown up and in there.

[00:21:38] Kelly: I'm curious as your thoughts around how marketplace with that type of partnership and engagement comes to life in your mind, how the utilization of influencer, or partnership or PR or these lists that you talk about driving into these marketplaces, in these other ways, how that's kind of different from marketplace versus, it made perfect sense when it was direct to consumer and you had endorsement, all those things as marketplace changed that fundamentally, or you see big shifts in that?

[00:22:02] Matt: I see more shifts. I think Amazon affiliate and influencer is becoming more reliable. I think when they launched it a couple years ago, it was crazy because you couldn't control who was promoting your product where you can for digitally and be like, Oh, this is our type of influencer. A lot of the Amazon programs, they'll bucket you, it'll feel a little bit more like QVC, which is not great for a lot of businesses. So they're getting better and better, but again, I'd argue it's so similar from your digital business, what's working and what's connecting with customers, whether they're going to buy from Amazon or they're going to buy from a digital site, it's not going to be tremendously different, right?

[00:22:33] Matt: Sure the tools are named differently, and sure, there's like a different investment strategy sponsored products obviously doesn't exist side of Amazon, but there's ways to think about what type of media is going to create an emotional connection with the business. How much money do I want to put there and what the results going to be? That's the same any sort of marketplace that you get into. I think what's going to happen with Amazon, and you can just see it from what's happening there internally is they're trying to tap into more of this short form video stuff, they're trying to compete with Tick Tock shop.

[00:22:58] Matt: So they're going to be creating more ad formats that worked that way, but they're also coming in over the top. Like one of the big things that they're doing there is actually non endemic marketing too. So if you don't actually sell on the shelves of Amazon, you'll be able to buy ad space, you'll be able to start attracting customers that way.

[00:23:11] Matt: So again, there's just a tremendous amount of innovation, there's so much money flowing through Amazon for the same reason that there's going to be a lot of new ad formats that make any form of media that you want to offer, they'll have a way back to Amazon at the end of the day.

[00:23:23] Kelly: I just really wonder about the economics of it, really. When you look at Amazon, Amazon gets their cut, then influencers get their commission cut, or on Tik Tok, so much of that is heavily discount driven. I always wonder what the economics ultimately flow into and how to really evaluate the short and the long term ramifications of having only so many slices of pie to go around for everyone to kind of get what they need in that mix. I think that's always putting my business hat on. It's like, how many little chunks can I break away before?, is the sale even worth it to me? Or how should I look at it differently in that way?

[00:23:53] Matt: Totally. And again it's different for everybody. I recommend starting small, so the biggest thing there is obviously measurement, right? You need to be able to do this and that's where all these MMM tools that are popping up and showing incrementality of Amazon and retail media versus your other channels is important but you don't have to worry about Amazon, they're making money, they're going to be just fine. You got to worry about the brand and the customer, are you over underspending? Are you investing in the right things? Are you going to heavily in DSP and forgetting about the core product of sponsor products and sponsor brands.

[00:24:19] Matt: So again, it's different for everybody, but my opinion of how to control the finances and the economics of it is start small and start with a pocket of your business that you can really control. If you sell six different categories, try to go with your core category. That's going to make sense and test and learn there before you expand and get into deep.

[00:24:35] Matt: So there's a way to make the economics work for everybody , but you got to find the right media mix for your business ultimately and start small.

[00:24:41] Todd: Well, those sound like valuable insights and lessons learned along the road that you've traveled, Matt, so thanks for sharing. Kelly and I have scratched our head many a times trying to figure this one out for clients that have approached us about this and like you said, there's no one way to do it, there's a lot of different ways to approach it, depending on what kind of brand you are, what life stage you're in of your brand and so on and so forth. So I think there's a lot more to talk to you about, we'll have you on again for sure. Probably on some series of segments to talk about Ecom and conversion rate optimizations and all the things like that, that you specialize in. So one of the things I do, I didn't prep you for this, and I did that on purpose so I could surprise you with it at the end of every show is, in the spirit of being an advertising media agency , media is what we do, I'm always curious, can you remember the last ad you saw?

[00:25:30] Matt: It's not fair just because I've been looking at the account, but I just saw an ugly ad on my phone right before I came in here. So unbelievable chocolate brand we work with. So I saw a short form video influencer review of a dark chocolate bar and I've been looking at it, I've been looking at their site all day. So I got served an ad, so our media is working, it got my click, running the numbers up a little bit, but that was it. Short form video influencer review of dark chocolate. Great video.

[00:25:54] Todd: There we go. All right, Matt, thank you very much for your time today. Again, we'll have you on again sometime soon. Kelly, thanks for all your questions, and that's it for today.