Elevating Client Deliverables and Value with AI

[00:00:00] David: what is creativity right now? What does transparency mean? What should it mean? and how does that affect our jobs?

[00:00:33] Kelly: everyone. Kelly McGuire, co founder of Fuji Day Digital. Excited to get into it. Today's guest.

[00:00:38] Todd: Hey, everybody. This is Todd, Kelly's co founding partner. And, uh, here on the West Coast, we are joined by David Berkowitz, who's all the way on the other side in New York, um, on the East Coast. so it's later in his evening time.

[00:00:49] Todd: Sorry for stealing your dinner and family time, but thanks for, talking with us today. I'll let David give his, intro, but just a quick background. boy, you've got a long background from everything, from being a writer. to working on the agency side, some ad tech, a chief marketing officer, a marketing consultant.

[00:01:06] Todd: and now, the head and the founder of the AI marketers guild, which I can't thank you enough for creating some structure around something that is driving us all crazy. Cause we don't know where it's going. Uh, let you get into it, but, uh, David, welcome. Thank you. Introduce yourself.

[00:01:20] David: Well, appreciate you having me here and it's a lot of fun.

[00:01:23] David: And, uh, as, someone who's not wearing a hat, I'm sure I had the pleasure of wearing quite a few of them. and that's been some of the fun. Cause I've, been able to see things from the agency side, both in more of an innovation capacity, corporate marketing, run strategy, marketing, even a bit of sales and like ad tech marketing tech, done a lot of consulting on my own learning.

[00:01:43] David: All the highs and lows of building your own business and, what it's like to really fend for yourself. And along the way, in part, I think because I've had some of these externally facing roles, also being a writer, getting to interview hundreds of folks and write for that age ad week, any market or all these great outlets, that, I just been able to bring a lot of folks together often informally, but started the serial marketer community six years ago and last year, I really wanted to do more with it, but then I was seeing that there wasn't really anything that was community led for marketers to come together and share knowledge about what was happening on AI and what, it really means, right?

[00:02:21] David: Not just this like, pine sky, like, Hey, I was going to, Be our salvation or take all our jobs then, but what can we really do with this? So, maybe my history of the innovation and community building, all that, maybe we can harness this now and bring together a place, that became a marketer's guild.

[00:02:41] David: And it's some of the most fun I've ever had building something.

[00:02:44] Todd: I'm excited to have recently joined to become a member and now I have to figure out AI so I can contribute back. so just give us a description of what is the AI Marketers Guild. I understand what you just said is a little bit about the inspiration, but tell us what is it?

[00:02:58] Todd: What's your purpose? What do you want to do with this thing? And how can we all help?

[00:03:02] David: Well, our purpose very much is to bring people together to actually figure out what to do with all of this AI stuff, especially in this generative AI era, to bring together brands and agencies and tech founders. And, also, I mean, there are some, there's some amazing work going on at the trade association level, but not everyone has the resources to join that.

[00:03:26] David: And a lot of the. A lot of the most exciting work in AI is happening, frankly, with firms like yourselves that are really just like putting it into practice in, true, creative and innovative ways. It's happening from tech founders who most people haven't heard of yet, but probably should. and so many of us.

[00:03:47] David: Are now experimenting in public. So can we have opportunities to share all that? the main points of interaction right now in the community. There's a slack community so a lot of conversation happening there day to day an email newsletter just Goes out to members a lot of updates mainly from the community My favorite part of it is running these weekly virtual events, and every Wednesday at noon Eastern, we get together usually with guest speakers and talk about some of the different aspects of how AI affects marketers.

[00:04:21] David: one week recently, we had a lawyer come on and talk about copyright issues. Then we had, an agency exec from huge, strategic partnerships lead from Adobe talk about even what is creativity right now? What does transparency mean? What should it mean? and how does that affect our jobs?

[00:04:39] David: Sometimes we'll have some vendor presentations. And really my favorite part of that. is that like, especially once the pandemic hit, I led dozens and dozens of virtual events. And as the weeks went on, it was just pulling teeth, getting people to come there. And it's like, why are we doing this anymore?

[00:04:56] David: If we're going to meet, we want to meet in person. If otherwise just like, get us the heck off. So there's so much energy, so much curiosity. And so like the one thing. coaching for, guests coming in, it's very brief, but I'm like, just be prepared for questions and like, whatever we set up, like, don't talk too long, and just get ready because I want to know what the community wants to know.

[00:05:21] David: And for me to just. go and start the conversation, but not be sure where it ends. terrific. It's just this energy boost.

[00:05:29] Todd: so I've been starting to monitor the Slack, channel and one of the things I'm trying to wrap my head around in, maybe you can talk about this as there's sort of a very technically deep side of AI.

[00:05:40] Todd: There's people who understand code and, LLMs and. All that kind of stuff. And then there's more of the just marketing services, maybe side of things is the guild sort of capturing all of that? cause what I'm afraid of, and from my perspective is it's going to be so technical that it's over my head and I don't even know how to interpret it because it's code and engineering and all that kind of stuff, is it more about that?

[00:06:06] Todd: Or is it more about. the existential use of it and things like that. what should I expect as I dig into this?

[00:06:12] David: Well, first of all, I, don't think a community should be about the founder, but I do have my biases coming into it. And I can't just leave that at the door.

[00:06:20] David: 1 of them is I'm not the most technical person. And there was 1 of these calls a number of months ago where. Got on some very technical tangent and someone dm'd me. I hope he was writing just me and said I don't know. I can't understand a single word of the past 10 minutes and I wrote him back. Me neither.

[00:06:41] David: so I had to get things back on track, but most of the time, as another example, I'm, I'm actually. Working on fairly a compact book now about AI and marketing, and I've decided that hopefully the editor will, go along with me, to basically not use the term LLM in a large language model after the initial context of saying, here's a term you'll hear out there.

[00:07:06] David: And so I even asked chat GPT as I was working on this, I said, if I call an LLM in AI engine, is that. Accurate enough and chat GPT said, yes, it is. It's a very good way to talk about it. Why people will understand. So, for me, I've spent about 20 years and agency media roles and others trying to be a translator and I'm working with.

[00:07:32] David: Product people who I frankly don't always understand. and so if I don't understand it, their target customers usually are not that technical and probably won't either. so yeah, I think it's great to have people who are like building. LLMs and let alone have very strong opinions about the difference between what machine learning is a natural language processing and can go and tell you and like, have more acronyms than you'll ever know what to do with, not unlike when my partner hears me talk about anything on.

[00:08:02] David: The agency side, she's like, what are you saying again? we all have our own jargon and verbiage, we want some of that. I want some people who haven't even tried chat GPT yet to come in there. this is often, and I'm hearing some of this now that like, okay, you're the one who convinced me to try perplexity or, One of these next gen tools out there.

[00:08:25] David: And like I'm seeing this pop up in the community and now I'm using it for myself. amazing. You know, or here's why I'm not using it. That's great to share that with the

[00:08:32] Kelly: community. I think it's really interesting hearing your perspective and the exposure that you have. And it's making me think about my own evolution on my thoughts on AI and where it's at.

[00:08:42] Kelly: I think where I found myself really, I don't necessarily know if struggle is the right word, but really trying to understand the state of AI and its usefulness is I've seen this kind of wave in other ways, and Todd and I have talked about, we've seen the year of mobile for a long time, and then you had AR, VR, and you had all these things, And it generally starts out with this big wave, wave of buzz and differentiator.

[00:09:03] Kelly: And you have all these ideas that come in and then it sort of wanes out. And then there seems to be functionality in it and stuff. And it, feels right now, like we're coming off this huge crest of wave of AI being just this buzzword and everything in there. And it feels like it's kind of flattening into not a lot of clarity on exactly the best way to use it, or there's a lot, there's almost so many.

[00:09:25] Kelly: Like paradox of choice. There's so many ways you could use it in, functional and get into it. All of this is to say, I'd love to have your perspective of how are you seeing people navigate this idea of AI and all of the different paths that it can take them down from creating efficiency to generative AI, to making their job easier, to doing work they couldn't do before, like where are you seeing true value pop up versus just.

[00:09:50] Kelly: People being curious and experimenting and still just, in a sea of chaos, figuring it out.

[00:09:54] David: Well, you're seeing some more case studies now come out as far as some major corporations like, Walmart just came out with something as far as like using AI to, to reclassify products and I guess I think like hundreds of millions of data points that they're working with and something that not only do.

[00:10:16] David: It could do like a hundred times faster with AI, but that presumably they weren't going to do at all. It would just wasn't going to be worth it to go and have that done just purely Madly by humans, so I think that there are things now that can be done that provide a lot of impact.

[00:10:35] David: Florida has been 1 of the most vocal about, statements on the call center front. which also, I mean, don't want to say it isn't jarring because it hints to, where could there be job losses going forward, It's not like even when, I remember when like the FAQ page was a big deal, like years ago started, resolving some customer service needs and like those who understood taxonomy and just like, to do basic knowledge management online with very static web pages were suddenly providing a ton of value, to their customers and prospects.

[00:11:11] David: So seeing things like this, where it's like, where do you just solve some of these pain points, , and actually improve the customer experience as opposed to some other things that we're seeing where there's like a lot of these experiments would say AI in, fast food drive throughs, just winds up being a net negative and those sort of experiments that wind up falling apart and where even like just these fairly brief exchanges. You just need that human to human interaction, and things that like, we didn't even realize humans were necessarily so great at, but where does it take more time than it's worth?

[00:11:46] David: and I think some of that is we need. More examples out there to extend some stuff, by the way, I think is just cool, I love to see brands and agencies that are experimenting in public, whether or not it really makes sense, one of my favorite examples so far I've seen in this gen AI era, generative AI era is, what Becks did with Autonomous beer.

[00:12:10] David: Did you see this? they created a beer brand using AI every step along the way. And they showed exactly where AI fit into it from the product design to, the flavor profiles, the marketing of it. and they were very transparent about it. The odds of this being a best selling new beer pretty low.

[00:12:30] David: Right. And that was clearly not the goal here. I don't even know how widely this was distributed. but to at least think through this, Like, well, then, and see, well, like, of, these, like, 13 steps that they had without, like, where, like, the one, two or three that actually did make a difference, and now they can go back and apply that, I think that kind of stuff right now is, what we're going to see way more precisely because just so much failure, but failure doesn't have to be a bad word, just, learning by doing that's taking place.

[00:13:03] Kelly: I mean, it's interesting when you talk about that way, right? Because for me, where I've had the most success with ai, or it's been the most beneficial for me, and, what I continue to think it's going to fast track most, is I feel like it enhances a lot of the thought process , or gives me a sounding board on ideas, right?

[00:13:19] Kelly: So there's always this debate on is AI gonna take jobs or is it gonna overcome things and things like that. And the argument I always have with Todd is, for me, at least right now, I see it a lot more as enhancement. In the sense that if there's something that I want to do, I think the example I use a lot is Excel, right?

[00:13:34] Kelly: A lot of times I know the Excel formulas that I want, but I don't memorize them all. So sometimes I have to experiment a little bit you know, I eventually get to it. But I have enough experience to know what I'm looking for in the outcome. Versus I can go to ChatGBT, describe the outcome I'm looking for, and it backfills for me and saves me time.

[00:13:50] Kelly: And it's the same thing, like maybe I'll write, I have this tendency to write a very long kind of stream of consciousness thought, and then I can, it can help me break that down into a more presentable format or structures and like that, but in my experience, it's an enhancement in the sense that it takes a level of expertise.

[00:14:08] Kelly: It takes an input. It takes a description of what you're looking for. And it kind of helps you work backwards and fill in gaps and find ideas or to stress test hypotheses and say, Hey, what about this? And kind of flesh out and say, okay, I like the presence of that. right now? Do you see the enhancement side of things?

[00:14:25] Kelly: You see the replacement side of things? I mean, What is your short and maybe medium term? I think long term might be too much to ask for right now in predictiveness, but where are you seeing the most success stories biggest outcomes other than just curiosity and interesting stuff?

[00:14:40] David: I've heard a lot of people say how AI very good at first drafts, but not beyond that. I've got a different take. I use it a lot for my own work as a fractional CMO and marketing consultant, let alone community builder and, some of these other projects that I wind up working on. there are a number of projects that I've taken on in the past year that I could not have comfortably pitched without.

[00:15:06] David: Using AI essentially as, my co pilot, in doing things like, market research analysis, for me to be able to do some qualitative interviews, for instance, and use AI to come and help me synthesize a lot of that information. And instead of them, like after I'm interviewing a subject, then I can interview AI about it, but then I don't just interview AI about the subject.

[00:15:30] David: I interview. About going across subjects and so now I can keep bringing in more information and get into a degree of complexity that before I would have needed a whole team around and it would have been a project that would balloon way outside of any budget that I pitch and it's not the kind of thing that folks are Pitching would like then send off to another agency, so there are some things like that I think AI does make possible. There's also, I think, a lot of stuff that we do that doesn't need to be the most polished thing, a lot of corporate newsletters, a lot of press releases, things like this, like they're what I call keep the lights on content, So this doesn't need to be the best thing in the world or this doesn't need to drive a lot of results.

[00:16:16] David: It's almost like the result is just letting your prospect or customer know you're still alive. For things that are much more critical that, express a point of view with how you see the world and out there, then no, I wouldn't lean on AI to do that. It may well help with the outline and first draft, but there are plenty of things out there that I think I could do pretty well with creating.

[00:16:38] David: Opportunities are destroying them. It's a mixed bag. Like, actually, just this week, there was a video project that one of my clients gave me and said, can you find some clips from these videos that we can use and share now? I could have used one of the video editing tools that I really like and do this.

[00:16:55] David: I've got a guy on fiber in Australia. He's terrific. It's so much faster for him to go through this and. Take care of form, and he does so much of a better job. so literally, as we're having this conversation, he's working on this. I don't need to right now. and so I. Love that there are things like this that I'll call Joseph as often as I can.

[00:17:18] David: So I don't have to get into the weeds with the

[00:17:21] Kelly: AI. Yeah, interesting to me when you talk about kind of using it for the pitches and those types of things. And I think it makes me curious on the CMO experience because we had a guest on and there was an interaction with them that we talked about where, she was mentioning the excitement around how generative AI allows.

[00:17:38] Kelly: So many more creatives to bring ideas and the potential for these movies and things to come alive. and one of my counterpoints to that was that is exciting to a degree, but it also makes me think about the amount of noise that it can potentially create and the amount of bad that you have to sort through to get to that good.

[00:17:54] Kelly: And it almost makes me think about what you talked about, which is. I wonder about how AI is going to raise the baseline of homogeny and commonality that it's going to be so much harder to sort through and find true value and true uniqueness and experience and talent when it starts to become less and less clear where that person who has experience to put in the prompt and to do the work and have that big idea.

[00:18:18] Kelly: It's harder to make it come across because it's almost raising that baseline of anyone can type in a chat gbt and then also with the idea that ai is going to Create such commonality amongst answers and similarities and things like that where do you start to get? that greatness and that amazingness that comes through and how can a cmo start to?

[00:18:37] Kelly: Know who they're hiring. Like am I hiring just a bunch of prompt engineers and inputs and, and things like that, or am I hiring experience and talent and, fresh ideas and uniqueness Because as things that the world sort of shrinks and everything becomes a little bit more similar.

[00:18:50] Kelly: Your consumer, I imagine is also gonna get used to a lot of the sameness, and at some point you're just gonna reset the reality of what you need to break through and what you need to rise above. And is that going to be solved by AI or is that a problem AI creates that you need even better talent to say, okay, it was easy to stand out before because the bar was set low.

[00:19:08] Kelly: Now the bar is higher and now to jump over it, you know, it's always that, you set a world record and the next world record is going to be set. And then the next world record is going to be set and you have to keep getting faster and faster. As a CMO, what does that look like in finding teams and talent work to break through on that?

[00:19:23] David: Well, part of it is like if AI can. Come up with what you need, like great. Right. It's skip the middleman. Yeah. either your standard is frankly that low, or you're seeing something really insightful and groundbreaking and creative and innovative or whatever thing that you're looking for, you're seeing something come out of it.

[00:19:45] David: That's like really just prompt driven work. Yeah. Great. go with that. And if you get a lot of efficiencies for, working in that capacity, you probably should. and there are probably some brands and, and especially like a lot of very specific marketing use cases that'll do the trick.

[00:20:02] David: if you were a PR firm, for instance, you could see the difference easily between one that's focused much more on writing press releases and blog posts or PR firms that are much bigger on building relationships and courting that. it's not going to replace their jobs.

[00:20:20] David: definitely not anytime soon. And, if you're doing too much of the stuff that can be readily replaced by, well, like you probably should be pivoting now. cause I don't see how that's sustainable. one of the other things is like, I'm long time writer, I got into this whole industry to get paid to write and not be a journalist because I had too much respect for journalists.

[00:20:42] David: Like, I was writing more of like the slice of life column for my college paper at Binghamton. I wasn't writing the, if you could call it investigative reporting or whatever they were putting in the main section there. What I've had to accept is as much as I love writing and I feel like I have a style and voice out there A lot of what I need to do for work much more is being a great editor and if I can shift my skills that way and Use what I did learn from All the great journalists have known and collaborated with and just, consumed content from still do then.

[00:21:18] David: I can have my hat on that, you know, and be pretty good. and on the creative side of my change from like, okay, you know, you can. Have I help you with the storyboards and things like that, but how do you bring this to life? Like, what's the vision that goes into it? What's like the heart and soul of it?

[00:21:33] David: most buyers, whether it's a CMO or what have you, people recognize what's human. Like, we're so attuned to those things that like have a little bit of that, something extra. And I more and more that's going to be in high demand. And hopefully my hope at least is that buyers will pay a premium for it.

[00:21:50] Todd: so we kind of moved our way into the second part of this, which was your roles as a chief marketing officer, a fractional chief marketing officer. if you were in a pure play, you got hired salary, full time role in a, and let's say a mid to larger size brand, that's got, good size marketing budget, you can hire agencies, you have that kind of power.

[00:22:10] Todd: what do you think is on the mind of a CMO at that level today? Relative to AI or any of the other major challenges that, are happening in. And what do you think? and you can pick any kind of agency type, but maybe whatever you think is a priority. What do you think agencies should be doing provide the greatest value to the CMO today?

[00:22:32] David: I think that there's a tremendous amount of value in looking at the most boring problems you can solve and tackling those first. And this is where I think AI. can excel often underappreciated ways. for instance, like if you look at AI's role in knowledge management, clearly need some systems in place that protect, the privacy of your work product, of employee data, customer data.

[00:22:59] David: So all these things, let's assume you've had your, CTO, anyone relevant, vet the hell out of any of the partners you're working with and you've got those privacy and security checks in place, and you probably do if you're at a mid size or larger company. Great. Okay, now, how do you use them, for instance, in ways to have these knowledge repositories, how can For instance, the sales teams more easily access information that's buried somewhere in the marketing databases. Similarly, how can marketing teams find out what are the challenges that sales people are facing on their calls that customer service representatives are facing and go and dive into that?

[00:23:43] David: how can someone who's. maybe it's someone who's at a front desk and it is going and just sending out some office communications how can they do this in a way that's on brack, and have this. so that there are ways to check things like this before even needing to show this to the CEO or whoever's going to approving these kinds of communications out there.

[00:24:06] David: how do you not just save a lot of time, but empower people and being able to access this very living organizational brain and then contribute to it. so I think all of this can be really motivating that, anyone can make their mark and also be able to access them, the far flung piece of information and create.

[00:24:30] David: Ultimately, like better work because it is more aligned with what that organization is all about like this kind of stuff as a baseline to me it's so boring and it's so important and it can be transformative and then yes, later on, look at, okay, how do you do a generative AI video?

[00:24:50] David: That's going to be your next Super Bowl campaign like that. Yeah. Give that a year or two or just make it your last priority, not your first.

[00:24:57] Todd: Yeah, well said. I mean, look, the back of the house stuff that you're talking about, that's Functionally critical right to all the other stuff, being able to pay off the investment, the marketing investments that are inevitably going to take place.

[00:25:09] Todd: If the back piece doesn't work, front piece isn't going to work so well either. All right, so, we can get close to wrapping up here things left for you. What are your final. Comments, words, anything you want to share on the AI Marketers Guild that you want people to know about? and then part B of that, I ask everyone, what is the last ad you remember seeing?

[00:25:32] David: All right, well, for AI Marketers Guild, we just love More voices, more diverse voices in every sense of the word. We want to be a place where just a lot of different kinds of folks, whether, you know, everything or nothing about AI, everything or nothing about marketing agency, tech, brand, academia, journalists that we want you as part of this.

[00:25:54] David: and even if you see like the kinds of speakers we've had on, our YouTube channel, like they're just incredible folks to get to learn from. And you can see this day to day in the community. As far as the last ads that I've seen, well, I guess I'm still on the tail end of, of just the frequency of ads from the Olympic sphere.

[00:26:15] David: Like I've never been, I don't know if I've ever been bombarded with this many TV ads and also with very little frequency capping. I think especially those Google Gemini ads, I had that song in my head for weeks and I'm like trying to escape some of that, uh, very, very low level trauma that comes from just, all of these things on repeat by having peacock on about 15 hours a day in my home.

[00:26:41] Todd: I think I had the same exact experience, but I, I love the Olympics. So I was willing to just take it all. It was worth

[00:26:47] David: it.

[00:26:48] Todd: that's going to come in. So, all right, Kelly, I think you got final words you want to add in here as well.

[00:26:53] Kelly: Yeah. So I really wanted to think through there.

[00:26:55] Kelly: There's just one more thought that came to mind that I was curious about, and it's around the commercialization of AI. And this is something that, that I really struggle with. We've explored projects and products and building out and getting involved in things. And I think there's this big question on how protectable is.

[00:27:12] Kelly: Training of an LLM and training of things monetizable because, you know, the R and D and the work that goes into it obviously has to have payoff on the back end. But we always have this debate on, is it, if you build it, you put all the time and energy in it will AI almost come in and eat your lunch because it's trainable and then it's easy.

[00:27:29] Kelly: And then that makes the question is, where does the expertise best lie? If you're a brand. Is it worth the brand investing on their own and owning it? Is it worth them hiring an agency and is it worth an agency building it and investing in it and being able to offer it to clients? Or is it worth. And standalone AI company to build it and to license it out to the users.

[00:27:51] Kelly: Because all three of them, I see a risk and a long term commercialization challenge. And this is really where I'm curious is, is where is the economy around AI going to both sprout up and be sustainable long term and, who can make the investments with the trust that they can. Yield the results long term on that side, and I'm not expecting to have a perfect answer for it, but I'm curious as to what your perspective is, because that's one of the hurdles and roadblocks that I really see to AI being able to become ubiquitous and served and less fragmented than it is right now.

[00:28:21] David: my best answer isn't necessarily what I like, but what think as to what's inevitable here, and that is, in short, the rich get richer. and in part, that's because the cost of, getting all the data needed to go and, train as it keep these costs keep going up. for chat GPT to go from 3.

[00:28:43] David: 5 to 5, and then, as those versions, come up, beyond that, then I don't know if it's exponentially higher, but it's going up a lot. don't see how. I've worked for two of the, five biggest, agency holding companies. don't see how any of them can keep up and like, it sounds like a really good idea, but I feel like, like, this is one of those things where not unlike the.

[00:29:09] David: Devil's bargains that a lot of folks have had to make with Google and Meta and Amazon. ChatGPT, the new Google and Meta, it sounds like. Well, but they're all being funded by like the same folks anyway. And so, so any of these major, AI engines they've got the institutional big tech funding behind it, or it's coming from.

[00:29:32] David: Another country and I don't think like everything has to be all us based and we've got our own, mixed bag of challenges here. but then, you at least maybe have like a little bit more comfort level with the devil, you know, I don't see a way to avoid what for me has been a devil's bargain with data for decades.

[00:29:51] Kelly: Yeah, it's a challenge that I see. I mean, we, talk about all the time is we have these ideas on things that we could probably build and I'm like, yeah, but is it going to be useful in 12, 18 months? Can we extract enough value there? Is it what, you know, it's, it's really, really hard to plan for that future.

[00:30:05] Kelly: And if we're having that struggle to your point, Todd's told me he's, he's heard that these big holding companies will have 200 AI engineers. I'm like, wow, who's funding that? And are they ever going to see the return on that investment on that side of things and what does that look like? And it just really makes me question what that reality of AI is going to be. And again, it's like everything it's, I see it incredibly fragmented right now from startups to chat, GBT, huge things, and somewhere it's going to have to flatten out, but I feel like your perspective and seeing what you see is it's really valuable to understand what that might be.

[00:30:34] Kelly: Because I think we're all guessing where it's all going to land out.

[00:30:36] David: Well, I think we'll also go in these waves where it's like, you one day a holding company has other considerations, right? Like they have their stock price. so one quarter having those 200 AI engineers now become something that boosts their stock price, another quarter that could wind up being a hit on it, and so I think it's going to go in some of those waves.

[00:30:56] Todd: A lot of expensive overhead, to maintain, and yes, there was something published by one of the holdcos that said they had 200 and I think it was 68. Engineers dedicated to their product development and road product roadmap around AI data management stuff for the agency for the whole coast. So, it's a lot of salaries or a lot of contractors to pay.

[00:31:17] Todd: wow. there's a lot to talk about. We've said a lot, probably not nearly enough, probably could do this another three or four times and maybe we'll have that luxury of, sharing stories with each other through the guild and, Maybe having you on again in the future to talk about some more stuff.

[00:31:30] Todd: So thank you for spending your evening in New York. That's out here on the West coast.

[00:31:34] Todd: thank you very much. And I'm excited to be part of the guild. Anybody listening out there who wants to get involved in AI from one level or the other needs to check it out, and help support, what we're all doing. Thank you, David.

[00:31:46] David: Thank you so much.

[00:31:47] David: Thank you.