Agency Credibility: Built Through Great Work, Industry Awards - or both?

[00:00:00] Todd: A lot of stuff gets embellished, right? Case studies gets get embellished in terms of maybe you know their outcomes, you know what they're producing. Maybe it's on the creative side or the media side, or just integrated full campaign side.

[00:00:14] Todd: Whatever it is, we know because we've had the ability to see case studies and then talk to the clients about those case studies and be able to validate that the brand. Actually could, could say that, that what's said in that case study actually didn't happen. That's an embellishment of the results or the outcome, or that's a spin on the story of, of what actually happened.

[00:01:07] Kelly: Everyone. Kelly McGuire with digital, excited to talk, talk about today's topics.

[00:01:12] Todd: Hello. Happy Monday, Kelly. It is the end of March already. And this is Todd Kelly's partner. What comes along at this time of the year in the ad industry is a, I guess we call it award season. It seems like this is when we start getting all the emails from adage and Adweek and the drum awards and all the other stuff that.

[00:01:33] Todd: Seems to be out there for advertising industry asking us to submit for awards. So today let's talk about is it worth it to do this awards thing because it's hard and it takes a lot of time and a lot of energy and a lot of effort and actually a lot of money. I'll talk a little bit about some of our experiences with that First , to participate as an agency company in the awards and, let's unpack that a little bit. um, We started entering awards a couple years ago, and what I've learned is that it takes a long time to just go through the whole sign up, fill out their submission criteria and form, which then starts to require you to write very specific.

[00:02:20] Todd: Things in a very specific way with a limited number of characters and then upload any supporting evidence of, of certain things. And then you pay the fee 'cause you have to pay. So it's seems like it's sort of a pay to play thing. And then if you get nominated as a finalist. You've gotta jump on a plane and fly to what seems to be almost always New York.

[00:02:46] Todd: So for those of us on the West Coast, that's all, all the way across the country and that costs a lot of money. And the hotel rooms cost a lot of money. And in our case, last year, for example, we walked away with a lot of wins, big wins against much bigger competitor agencies that we probably don't have any business knocking off.

[00:03:06] Todd: As a small independent agency. All that to be said. I don't think it's done much for us, but here's the things that I wanna talk about. What are awards supposed to do? What's their purpose? It's supposed to give us added credibility. I. Maybe in the industry it's supposed to help us attract clients, whether they read about an award-winning agency in a particular category.

[00:03:33] Todd: Maybe they're looking for an agency or the next time they're looking for an agency, they think about that award-winning agency. It's supposed to allow them to maybe better validate us. If they're searching for an agency and you know, they're looking at three or four, they're like, oh, well this one's won these awards, this one's won those awards.

[00:03:50] Todd: Maybe it helps validate it should help with employee recruiting, retention, morale. Everybody wants to be a winner and work for a winner, right? So it should be doing all those things. I would argue it's probably done some of those things for us. I would say it's done. The employee retention, morale, recruiting it's done, all those things.

[00:04:12] Todd: Do I think any of our clients care that we won awards or do I think anybody that might be looking at us as an agency cares if we've won awards? I don't know. What do you think?

[00:04:22] Kelly: you know, as we're, as we're thinking about going through this topic, I, I don't know where I'll land on which side of the fence. 'cause I, I have strong opinions in both ways of it. I think in its simplest form where I land with them is, I think they're kind of fun. I think they can be fun. I think, you know, even whether you buy into them or really believe in them or not.

[00:04:43] Kelly: I think it's, it feels good to win them. I think there's a, a, fun element to that. I think the events can be enjoyable. I you know, I remember when I first started out in, in my career, the, I feel like the whole industry events and get togethers and things, whether it was because I was doing them more, 'cause I was younger, if it was more of a thing, the, the whole ad industry event type thing was a lot more than it feels like it is these days for the most part and.

[00:05:09] Kelly: You know, so I think there's a peer set there. And so I think that there's a place for 'em. I think they're enjoyable. I think they can be validating. I think they can be certainly ego boosting and fun for the employees and, and, and the clients and things like that. And, and it's always fun to circulate the information.

[00:05:25] Kelly: Now when I think about their usefulness or what they should represent, I think that's where the other side of me gets a little bit more jaded on the topic because. As you said, we've talked before about case studies and, and how valuable those are, right? Because I always make the joke. No one ever put out a bad case study.

[00:05:45] Kelly: Well, no one ever submitted a bad award, or you, no one ever won an award for something bad that they did. Now, of course, you have to do the work and, and it's curated, but you know, in theory, it's supposed to be a validation from. , your peer set and your experts and, and the people reviewing it. And, and so there's an element where you should be able to look at it and be like, okay, they did really good work, and there's a presence to it.

[00:06:06] Kelly: But I think that inherently favors the, the big shops. I mean, I think you, you made a comment earlier about we don't have a, you know, business knocking them off. And I think that that comment comes from. Their ability to package and self-promote and do that. I mean, work-wise, we obviously, certainly do have, have that position, but we don't have it.

[00:06:28] Kelly: The luxury of the, the resources and the bandwidth of people who are just purely marketing the brand of our agency and everything, and the cost and everything that goes into that. And so. I think some of it just inherently starts to favor that bigger, more resource laden entity, and it can kind of become this self-fulfilling prophecy of, you know, them being able to feed in and, and toot their own horn and, and kind of get that coverage.

[00:06:53] Kelly: And and where that creates a disconnect is the perception that that creates versus the reality of the quality and the work that's done and everything that goes into it. I think a lot of the really good stuff can kind of get pushed down and lost and sort of buried in that way. Not like, I'm not on like a lot of industries where they get dominated by certain big players and the really good stuff.

[00:07:14] Kelly: You know, can kind of get lost in that. So this is the, the challenge that I have in, in really thinking about this topic, which is they're fun and they can be validating and it obviously gets you attention and it gets you hopefully, you know, recognition and the ability for someone to see. Oh, you know, they did good work and they got recognized for it and they, they must have done something good and that makes me feel better about what they're saying to me or, or what I've seen otherwise.

[00:07:38] Kelly: It's social validation is third party validation. And on the other side, I, you know, I worry about does that create this perception of for agencies that aren't getting that, that they aren't doing good work or they're not in there and it's not a byproduct if that's just not a focus or a priority for an agency that is putting all of their time and energy and resources into.

[00:07:59] Kelly: The actual work that pays the bills and, and this promise to clients and getting it through the door. So, there's a light and a dark side to it, like I think almost anything else can possibly have.

[00:08:10] Todd: You and I have been doing this together for 16 years across three agencies. Up until last year, we never once batted an eye or cared about entering for awards. So it certainly didn't affect our ability to have successful agency business by not having awards. 'cause we had none. It was only until. Our podcast producer and agency consultant who sits in the background of our show continued to sort of push that button, right, of saying, you guys need to do this, you need to do this, you need to do this.

[00:08:43] Todd: Let me help you do this. We finally did it and, and then we started winning everything we entered, which again. We never did it before. It didn't change the, the, the quality of our work. It hasn't changed the quality of our work. It's a nice to have, but I, I struggle with trying to understand that it did anything more than just, like you said, sort of the dopamine ego stroke of, oh, we won, look, we won a trophy.

[00:09:11] Todd: Everybody gets a trophy. We win a trophy.

[00:09:13] Kelly: be fair, we don't, we don't know. I mean, we don't know if maybe, if we've ever not won a piece of business because someone else flashed something like that in there. I doubt it, but it's not unknown and,

[00:09:22] Todd: I think you're wrong. I think we have definitely lost many a pitch because we probably didn't have the packaging that another agency has that has that stuff in it.

[00:09:33] Kelly: I think those awards are a piece of that, right? Or, or we don't know. If someone was researching and coming across it, and maybe we were in a consideration set in between a, a set of three or four similar agencies that unfortunately every website of every agency says the same thing over and over in different ways.

[00:09:50] Kelly: And that's a maddening reality too. So I. Is an award set. Something that said, okay, I'm, of the 10 I could reach out to, I'm only gonna reach out to four of 'em, is the four that make the cut in that because of an award that is shiny or, you know, comes across and, and breaks it. It's, that's, I think that's what I struggle with is it's like, it, it shouldn't be a driver in what the real work that gets done, but in a sea of everyone saying and shouting a lot of the same things and claiming a lot of the same things and.

[00:10:21] Kelly: You know, if I, I go to other websites of other agencies that I know about or I'm aware about and I read it, I'm like, man, if, if I was in isolation just trying to figure this out on my own, I don't know how I could read these things and really differentiate very well amongst them. And so again, the, this sort of very good production on the front end.

[00:10:42] Kelly: Oftentimes can very much mask the realities in the backend, right? It can be a Ferrari body with a, with a Volkswagen engine, and, and you know, that, that becomes its own set of problematic things. And, and I think that that does also create a lot of the dark side of our industry, where a lot more emphasis and priority.

[00:11:04] Kelly: Goes into that front end and a lot more time and energy and investment and goes into winning the business and, and really having that reputation and that skills and that sales organization versus being really good at the work and really building a foundation in the back end of the solid end. And I think that that inherently creates a lot of the turnover and the problems where.

[00:11:27] Kelly: How many times do we talk to new clients that are like, man, I, I went into this pitch and I, I was wowed, and then it just fell flat. I just didn't get what I bought and signed on the dot dotted line. But, you know, it was so impressive and so promise heavy and, and wowing, and then the reality falls flat and that creates this constant turnover.

[00:11:45] Kelly: And then I think that people getting burned enough in that process creates this inherent doubt and skepticism so that when a good entity does come in, you almost have to. Do even that much more of a dance and that much more of a proof. 'cause you're being looked at with this skeptic eyes of like, yeah, I've been promised great things before and I don't know if I believe it and I have to go through these things.

[00:12:07] Kelly: And so we are fighting against this kind of poisoned well that we didn't participate in and, and it creates all this kind of domino effect in, in it that. You know, again, that's the dark side of it. I love, I like going after the wards. Part of why we started going afterwards is I'm tired of seeing other people get them, and I'm like, oh, we've done great things too.

[00:12:27] Kelly: Like, I'd like to get a little bit of at least recognition. That'd be kind of fun to it. But, you know,

[00:12:33] Todd: But think about that for a second right there. Why do you want that?

[00:12:36] Kelly: it's a bit of a, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. It, that's that, you know, you and I are somewhat competitive and so that, that's a competitive element to me. It's not that I want the award, it's that.

[00:12:46] Kelly: I don't wanna see other people winning them when I know what we're doing is as good or better.

[00:12:52] Todd: Well. So to that note, you know, one of the things that I think what is, is really hard about writing the award submission is that you have this sort of limited character count of like how to really spell out what you did and what the outcomes of your work was. And you know, that's the award-winning sort of thing that you put out there.

[00:13:16] Todd: One of the things we know to be true from being on the inside of some things at times is. A lot of stuff gets embellished, right? Case studies gets get embellished in terms of maybe you know their outcomes, you know what they're producing. Maybe it's on the creative side or the media side, or just integrated full campaign side.

[00:13:37] Todd: Whatever it is, we know because we've had the ability to see case studies and then talk to the clients about those case studies and be able to validate that the brand. Actually could, could say that, that what's said in that case study actually didn't happen. That's an embellishment of the results or the outcome, or that's a spin on the story of, of what actually happened.

[00:14:04] Todd: And so if that's happening in case studies, I wonder how much of that's actually happening on the award submission side. Right. Because for example, when we submitted award for awards last year, we cited a very specific revenue. Number that was incremental net growth to the client that we submitted for.

[00:14:25] Todd: And that wasn't a number we made up. That wasn't a number that we pulled out of anything. That was a, that was a financial reporting number that the brand gave us and said, this is actually the net incremental impact on our business in this given time period. And so we just took that number and that was the number we used.

[00:14:45] Todd: And apparently that was a significant enough number to garner enough attention that we won everything we entered. But needless to say, I just wonder how, how real it all is.

[00:14:57] Kelly: So I, I love that you brought that up because it sparked a thought in my mind. That might be my biggest problem with the idea of awards, and that is that it might, it might shine a light on the wrong thing, which is just purely being focused on a very easy to understand and exciting. Singular outcome, a big number, a big win, and something like that, which is great.

[00:15:24] Kelly: We all love those. I think where my head's going right now as I think about it is. The very best work that we do, what I am the most proud of that we offer in our client relationships oftentimes is not tied to the shiniest, most successful big win outcomes. Because the hardest work that we do is when things aren't going that great is, you know, there are challenges when we have to be strategic and thoughtful and problem solve and plug gaps and work in there.

[00:15:56] Kelly: And so the things that I think really make. That that relationship valuable are not necessarily the things that would play really well in a big shiny

[00:16:07] Kelly: award

[00:16:08] Todd: There's.

[00:16:09] Kelly: Yeah, exactly. And, and, and so and so, if you start to look at picking the agency you're gonna work with based on the awards they won.

[00:16:19] Kelly: Again, it feels like that's inherently gonna skew the okay, you were able to achieve things when everything went right. It's not telling me what's gonna happen when not everything goes right and when, you know, we get mired in the difficult and we get in there and, and are you gonna show up and are you gonna, you know, nickel and dime and, and not be able to problem solve?

[00:16:37] Kelly: But yeah, if I have a product that's gonna sell itself and do really well and we can do big numbers, that's gonna show up really shiny. So, yeah, as I'm thinking through it in real time here, I think that's my problem with it. Is it. It shines a light on the wrong thing when it comes to what should matter in developing a really good client agency relationship, which is not what it's like when everything's going great.

[00:16:56] Kelly: What is it like when things are hard and we have to figure 'em out and we have to pivot and we have to look bigger picture and the longevity of things. Like it's all good and well if that comes together and one really. Fun, exciting campaign. But one fun, exciting campaign is not the backbone of what a business is built off of.

[00:17:13] Kelly: And I think a good client age relationship is pushing true, long-term, overarching business forward. And so fundamentally, I think as I'm thinking through that, that that's one of my bigger problems with it is it's fun, it's enjoyable. I think it can be a way to get some attention on it, but it certainly should not weigh into.

[00:17:31] Kelly: Picking or, or not picking or being a tie breaker in any real way. And it's too easy for that to happen. It's too easy to, to dismiss. Well, they won Agency of the year, they won campaign of this, and that's a cool thing. It's a cherry on top. But if it's a cherry on top of a, you know, a whipped cream with no, with no ice cream behind it, you know, it, it's not very, it's not very powerful in, in it.

[00:17:53] Kelly: And it can mask a, you know, bigger, bigger issues and problems in that front.

[00:17:58] Todd: A whipped cream pie? Uh, Well, yeah, I think that my point is, is that the submission sort of platforms are nothing more than just basically repurposing a case study. And that's my point is that we know case studies are not always totally, I. Truthful and they're often embellished in terms of what the work was that was done, maybe what the outcomes were or things like that.

[00:18:22] Todd: Because we've had the fortune of hearing from clients, a lot of times the case studies that are published are not actually all that true. So it just seems like this is just another way to submit a and like you said, nobody's ever gonna submit a bad case study or a case study that doesn't look, make them look amazing.

[00:18:37] Todd: So. I also question the, the validity of the award submissions and how much of them are, you know, really true or, or highly embellished and, and really well packaged,

[00:18:50] Kelly: And that's the thing. It's fact so many of these end up giving one because a lot of them, even, even if even the media ones get one based on the creative because it was something cool, it was something fun. You know, you're, you're usually seeing it's a media result, but it's packaged around a really nice.

[00:19:08] Kelly: Creative executor, some cool influencer thing, or, you know, something that, again, is more tangible and easy to understand. Again, the really hard media work that's mired in, in those things, it's, it's just really hard to package that in a fun, how do you stand up and present it in a couple of slides and everyone gets it right away kind of way.

[00:19:27] Kelly: So it's, I I think that makes it a little bit difficult, yeah.

[00:19:30] Todd: it's a lot difficult. We, we didn't win on, on showcasing ad creative that we ran in media. We won based on a revenue number.

[00:19:38] Kelly: Yeah, but I mean, it was packaged in a certain way and there's obviously other elements to it. I mean, we've had, I, I would say the flip side of that is we've had really impressive good work for clients that there just wasn't a way to package it. In a way that made it worth investing the entry fee, knowing even though the numbers are really good and the outcomes are really good, it's not gonna break through.

[00:20:00] Kelly: And so why spend the hundreds and hundreds of dollars when it's, it's just, there's no way to piece it together and, and make it in there. And again, that inherently starts to peel back the curtain of. If that's true for some of our efforts, that's gotta be true for lots and lots of other efforts. And so now you're, again, you're shining lights on very skewed things that can hold opinions and that kind of opens it up to the bigger question, which I don't know the answer.

[00:20:24] Kelly: We haven't necessarily fully prepared ahead of time on this which point, kind of the part of this. But what should the role of awards be, right? If we agree they're fun and we agree that they can have some ability to showcase or highlight things. I don't know what where I land on the answer of what, how should the awards be, thought about, and looked upon and, and perceived and properly used.

[00:20:48] Todd: I, I mean, look, the Oscars happen every year, right? And, and you could look at the films that win best picture, best actor, but, and, and. Everybody's got an opinion, right? Everybody's gonna have the opinion. Well, I saw this other movie and I think it was better than that one, but that one won best picture, so.

[00:21:03] Kelly: I bet you the, the, the winner of, of the best picture. I bet you a lot of people go and watch that movie that wouldn't have otherwise if they didn't win that award. I bet you that has a huge boosting effect

[00:21:14] Todd: They, they do. I mean, look at all the, the blogs and the publishers that come out the day after the, the Oscars about here's all the Oscar winning, you know, films, actors, actresses, right? And what do people do? They go, oh, I'm gonna go watch that. And so, but again, to my point, we've spent, so last year.

[00:21:31] Todd: I think we spent somewhere between seven and 10 grand just for people out there to know. Small, little indie agency, entered two awards, won both of them, spent almost $10,000 doing that. That's the award fees, the travel, the cost of the trophies, all that stuff, right. Are we getting $10,000 worth of ROI out of that?

[00:21:54] Todd: I don't know. I, I really don't. It could be that the last two or three people we hired looked at our website and went, oh, they're an award-winning agency. I wanna work for them. Or that added to the fact that they wanna work with them. Everybody we've interviewed recently and said, oh, I listened to your podcast and I gave me a really good flavor for who the.

[00:22:12] Todd: Two founders are on what it's gonna be like to work for them. 'cause I can hear them talk and I understand how they think. And so I would argue our podcast might have more validation in that category than, than awards. But it's expensive. Took a lot of time think how many people we have involved in just trying to get awards submissions prepared.

[00:22:30] Todd: Multiple, like half a dozen people probably touch it by, by the end of the day. I'll just say this, I, I can sort of conclude on this on my end. I think it's a, like advertising. I think it's a necessary evil. I think we have to do it. I think it does give some credibility and value and perspective to who we are as a company, but at the end of the day, I'd rather not do it.

[00:22:55] Kelly: I think for me, my two, my two kind of closing thoughts are. From an analogy perspective, I kind of see it as it's, it's a resume point, right? Like if, I, you know, I always say that when, when clients are hiring agencies, they should treat it like a job interview. They should really, the same way you decide who it is that you wanna work for your company, that's the same thing you're doing just at a larger scale of an agency.

[00:23:16] Kelly: And so. I can look at it as a section on the resume that helps us not get thrown into the trash bin amongst a sea of other things. But it still needs to be backed up by the interview and the process and the, and the going through and, you know, whatever led to those awards has to be, you know, asked and talked about and, and understood why it's important and why it's valuable on the surface, on, on its own is not the best thing in the world.

[00:23:41] Kelly: And then the other idea that came to mind since you brought up kind of the Oscars and award. Because I would suggest that someone out there should come up with the version of this that is more the, what I'll call the viewer's choice Award, right? So rather than the experts and the panels, it's the, the clients and the people that are experiencing that real time work that can nominate and validate and, and say that works in there.

[00:24:01] Kelly: So. There, it feels like that would be a little bit more useful if it was the, the viewer's choice. The the client's choice award. That's, you know, taking the time and the energy to be like, I appreciate what I got and what I experienced and, and the overall realities versus just the outcome. That feels like it would be a lot more valuable if, if someone, was able to make it through that gaunt line of what, whatever that looked, looked like.

[00:24:22] Todd: I agree. I'd much rather win an award because , 10 brands submitted their agencies and, and we won because of that.

[00:24:29] Kelly: I mean, I'll tell you, that will inherently break down in and of itself. 'cause now you're still gonna get the big agents that they're gonna encourage and help and incentivize, and you're still not gonna be able to get exactly what you want outta that. But if it was to work in a perfect environment, it feels like that would be more validating than, than maybe what just sort of a a, a shiny best case study award system would, would work, would yield.

[00:24:49] Todd: Well, where we landed is we gotta do it. So

[00:24:53] Kelly: And they're fun. They are fun. I don't want to disparage 'em. We submit 'em. I enjoy going to them. I enjoy winning them. They are fun to go through those types of things. So I, I, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to completely make it sound like we're down on 'em.

[00:25:04] Todd: No, no. I, I, yes, you and I are very competitive. I enjoyed very much last year watching one giant agency sweep an awards category except for one, the one that a little indie agency knocked him out of, and they weren't. Too, all too happy about that. So, my, my final closing question for you will be, instead of what ad do you recall seeing last relative to the awards category, if there was any agency industry award you could win if you can think of any and all that you can think of, what would it be?

[00:25:38] Kelly: I answer my own made up client, Joyce Award as.

[00:25:41] Todd: Yeah, you, well, okay. Gimme, gimme your made up one, but then gimme like a real one that you think would be the pinnacle of your advertising career if you won.

[00:25:52] Kelly: I mean, I mean the two that we did win last year were pretty cool. I mean, the media posts and the drum awards, those are pretty exciting. I mean, you know, there's the, the sort of the standard ad age that, that one's really,

[00:26:02] Todd: I don't what, what would be the one, if you, if you could, if you could brag and say, this is the highest achievement I could achieve as an advertising veteran, what would it be? Do you know? I, I don't know if you know enough about all the awards,

[00:26:15] Kelly: Yeah, I don't know about all of 'em. I mean, the, the ones that I'm probably get the most jealous about are some of the agency of the year things when it's broader and, and, and bigger on those types of things. Just because again, I feel like that's, that peaks pe people get really kind of, oh, what, what's going on there?

[00:26:30] Kelly: I will say, I mean, I was, I am really, really proud of winning the best places to work. I know that there's, you know, some nuances to that, but because we've built so much of our agency around the people and what they come to work, and that is purely based off of their feedback. There, there was a lot of, of kind of pride in that one in particular.

[00:26:48] Kelly: But I, you know, in terms of the vanity and ego side of things, I mean, I would say like an Ad Age agency of the year, small Agency of the year, something like that would be, you know, pretty, pretty cool.

[00:26:57] Todd: That would be my number one is winning ad agency. Small agency of the year for sure. What's your made up one? What would be the one that you could

[00:27:05] Kelly: the client, the Client choice award, right? Some something where it was built on, around, you know, clients taking the time to appreciate what they've gotten and nominate it and, and sort of validate and go through there and then have that. Have that not be based on one client, right. Have the criteria be, you know, multiple clients have to have validated what they, you know, that they got what they were promised when, when they pitched the business and won it.

[00:27:26] Kelly: It actually showed up and gave them what it was there. It wasn't a, an a, an A team pitch in a, in a B team swap or a C team swap out, which I think is all too problematic in, in what happens in the world is people actually having to fulfill their promises and show up and, and deliver.

[00:27:41] Todd: So I guess we need to go create the Client Choice Awards then and now we'll be awards event producers.

[00:27:47] Kelly: There you go.

[00:27:48] Todd: Alright, well, good conversation. I think it's an interesting topic. We have kicked around, like I said, for 16 years until last year, and I guess we're in it again this year. We're already finalists in awards categories this year for a campaign that I'm actually really proud of based on its purpose and mission.

[00:28:06] Todd: So I hope that we win beyond just being nominated as a finalist. But year two. Submissions and we're, we're already in the running, so that's exciting. Thanks for sharing your point of view about it and we'll get onto it next week.