Lessons in Courage and Persistence with Author, Entrepreneur & Founder Jean (Sammy) Orelien

[00:00:00] LuRae: Welcome to the show. I have a special guest today, Sammy Aurelian, who is a, an entrepreneur, a business owner, and it's a visionary leader. I would say he's written a new book that was just released in December, and I want to welcome you to the show. And, And just say, welcome.

[00:00:30] Sammy: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

[00:00:34] LuRae: Yeah. So I'm excited for you to share your journey, kind of where you started and how you got where you are today. Share with people your journey.

[00:00:45] Sammy: Sure. So, um, I grew up, uh, in Haiti. I was born in Haiti and I left Haiti when I was 10 years old, uh, living in a place called Guadalupe I was 19, uh, came to America in 1989. Uh, that's where, um, so I came to America after So I went to college, pursued graduate studies in the US, uh, went to work in corporate America and that lasted, um, um, for what, seven years or so.

[00:01:17] Sammy: And then after that, I branched into entrepreneurship and started my own company.

[00:01:24] LuRae: So good. So good. And, and so talk a little bit about like the inspiration and the journey that led you to write your book, which is turning water into butter. Uh, to a spiritual memoir. Talk a little bit about that.

[00:01:40] Sammy: Sure. So, um, when, when I was in Haiti, Louie, um, first experience, so to speak, my first, I would say, kind of epiphany, what I believe changed me is that, um, I remember this event where I asked my mother what, uh, I would be eating later. And she said something to me that, you know, like, uh, some rambling that she can turn water into butter if she has to feed me.

[00:02:09] Sammy: It's kind of like saying that you, you'd make stone soup out of stone or make bread out of stone. So basically she was telling me that she would create. impossible if she had to, to feed me.

[00:02:21] LuRae: Mm.

[00:02:22] Sammy: this is where, for me, I had this awakening where I didn't believe this poor woman. I'm like, you know, this woman is clueless.

[00:02:28] Sammy: She has no clue what she's going to feed me. um, this is for me kind of at least a story that I told myself at the tip that I run into my head for a long time, that I needed to be in control. I could not trust this woman to, to feed me. I could not trust the adults around me. So I had to be in charge.

[00:02:45] Sammy: I had to be in control. And, um, So this is the tape that I was wanting and, um, that was driving me.

[00:02:55] LuRae: Mm.

[00:02:56] Sammy: Uh, uh, and it drove me for a long time. Uh, and that served me well, I have to say, you know, that, um, that idea that I needed to be in control, it pushed me, it pushed me to some degree to do things that, um, I think would be scary for some people, you know,

[00:03:18] LuRae: Mm

[00:03:18] Sammy: um, but at the same time, I realized that I also had to revisit the tape, and this book is really first written for me, you know, because, um, I think, you know, in terms of transformation, um, that, um, One area for growth is, uh, to go back and look in the past.

[00:03:36] Sammy: I think the past is a gift, uh, and that, uh, to revisit that past and to revisit, to revisit the stories we've told ourself. And I use the concept of reframing in the book to reframe that. And so that's really a, uh, an exercise in reframing the past, revisiting it. It is a great source for growth. And so that's why I wrote the book.

[00:03:58] Sammy: And, um, what I'm hoping is that. It would, um, inspire people not because, um, I've done something great or anything greater than anybody, but that, uh, they would see themselves in the, in the story because I believe that we all have stories. Every human being at some point had to face that event where they felt that didn't belong.

[00:04:25] Sammy: They felt that something was off and they had to make a choice. Now, what do I do? How do I cope with this world? You get, you get put into this world and you know, you feel loved. You feel like everybody loves you, but at some point you realize that there's something off here. Maybe this is a hostile environment.

[00:04:42] Sammy: You know, for me, I decided to take a persona. I talk about, you know, taking a persona, uh, a mask. And the ego for me, it was called the lone wolf. I had to be in charge. That's the only way I could feel safe. Uh, and then, you know, so what I'm hoping is that others will see themselves in the story and they will, it will push them to then look at their own and get the nuggets of wisdom, get, get, um, get that knowledge of self from their own story.

[00:05:10] LuRae: hmm.

[00:05:10] Sammy: that's, that's really what drove me to write this book.

[00:05:13] LuRae: That's so interesting because as you're talking, we, yes, we all create stories and I know one of something that I picked up along the way is we are meaning making, excuse me. They're going to have to edit this out. When you were talking, it made me realize and think about we are meaning making machines. We give meaning to everything and we do that to make ourselves feel safe and to try to make sense of our world around us. So. We will say, well, that happened. So that must mean this, this thing happens. So that must mean this.

[00:05:56] LuRae: And that is how we, as you were saying, you, the story that you created it on the one hand, you turned it into like a fire beneath you to probably achieve some of the things that you've achieved. And at the same time, at a certain point, you look back and looked it. And realize that was a coping story, coping mechanism to just, as you said, to, to feel safe in what seemed like a hostile world that you need to be in control.

[00:06:27] LuRae: If you weren't sure that this other person headed under control, you needed to take charge,

[00:06:33] Sammy: Right.

[00:06:34] LuRae: make that happen. So what were some of the steps that you took in that journey of kind of getting to your truth?

[00:06:46] Sammy: So I think, you know, it starts with, um, in terms of getting to your truth where you wonder, right? You wonder, is this really the way that things should be? And, um, you know, and kind of the knowledge of, uh, know thyself is the first part, you know, and I would say, um, I took the journey of transformation as part of entrepreneurship. so when I, I wanted to go my company and I realized that to grow your company, you have to grow yourself. You have to, you know, uh, I mean, I, I said something recently, I mean, something that I've said, you know, many times and that, you know, I mean, it's, you know, that I believe deeply. And that's something that I had to learn early that bottlenecks happen at the top. What got you to a certain point, what gets you to start a company? To be that control freak to where you want the control of your life. That's not the same thing that will help you grow a company. And so at some point, you're going to hit a ceiling. And one of the things that you realize is that, um, uh, uh, to grow your company, to grow your organization, or if it's an initiative or endeavor, any big endeavor requires more than you.

[00:08:02] Sammy: And so to grow that endeavor, to make To make that march toward whatever that big goal is, you have got to go. And so, I mean, I faced that. I mean, it was almost like facing the ceiling where essentially I, um, I feel that, um, I was, I was, I was obligated to go because you know what, that tape where you said you have to be in control, uh, that's a story, you know, the good thing about the story and that meaning we can change it.

[00:08:33] Sammy: And that's why I also said in the book that, um, And I don't know if Yogi Berra said it, and if he didn't say it, I'm claiming it. I said, uh, the past ain't never the same. Uh, you can't change the past.

[00:08:44] LuRae: Right.

[00:08:45] Sammy: But what I mean by changing the past, because to me, the past is, uh, something happened,

[00:08:50] LuRae: Right.

[00:08:51] Sammy: and then you interpret it, right?

[00:08:53] Sammy: You, you have your interpretation about those facts, you have your meaning that you gave it. And when you revisit that, you say, yeah, this happened. Yes. But then, You change that meaning, then the past is never the same. So to me, so I needed to do that. I needed to do that growth. And, and I would say, um, that, uh, the realization that came to me is that, you know, you can grow by reading books.

[00:09:18] Sammy: Like, you know, it's easy. This is linear. Like, you know, if you want to be a business, I'm a technical person. So if you want to know about balance sheet, how to read a PNL, that's, that's, you know, That's what I call, um, the things that, you know, you don't know, you can get a book, you can have somebody to teach you that, but there's a part of, uh, where you can go the most in terms of that growth that you need to have nonlinear growth in your business, nonlinear growth in your impact in the world.

[00:09:43] Sammy: Um, this is where you have to go into the self. And that's what I found out. And that's really kind of what pushed me in terms of, uh, personal transformation. And part of that transformation was to go into the deep end and to revisit my past. Yes.

[00:09:59] LuRae: do that because I think of one of the light bulbs, I thought about this the other day that I would, I would always hear that saying, Oh, we only use 5 percent of our brain, right? We only use like 95 percent of our and what that really is, we are running most of our life, 95%.

[00:10:16] LuRae: Of our day is repetitive training from the past, and it's not our conscious mind. It's our subconscious. So those old stories, those old tapes, unless we go back and revisit them. They're running our belief system and what we think is possible and how we interact with people. And unless we go back, which is called the shadow work, go back and look at what are my beliefs around money, around relationships, around people, around the world in general, and what's possible for me that we're Impossible says I am possible.

[00:10:54] LuRae: If you spell it, it's I am and we have to re look at those stories, but most people won't do that. So I just commend you for doing that. I'm not taking the time to do that. What was the impetus that made you get to that point where you wanted to look at that part of the past and, and just cause you to look at it?

[00:11:18] Sammy: So I wanted to go and I didn't get your coach to help me grow

[00:11:23] LuRae: Hmm.

[00:11:23] Sammy: a business coach. And I'm glad that this was a business coach and now we are still friend. Um, and in case he's listening, uh, I will ask forgiveness later. His name is Bill Buxton. And I just have a couple of good coaches. At that time I was, I was using two coaches. One was for business that Bill Buxton and I had what I call special coach Jane Smith, but I think they were really two that were helping me more like on the spiritual side and not so much on the business side, you know, it wasn't about PNL. It wasn't about strategy or tactics. They were both helping me go into that tip and in terms of doing the shadow work that you talked about.

[00:12:05] Sammy: Uh, and frankly, I think that's what I needed the most, so to speak. And that may be true probably for a lot of people, which is that, um. You know, uh, if you're new to business, you want to build a business, there are aspects of business knowledge that you don't know. Um, the fact that you started a business is that you are, you have the ability to learn.

[00:12:25] Sammy: You probably can go in a book. You can probably get a book, read that or take a class online, learn about it. Uh, yeah. So, um, and Bill, my, uh, one of my coaches, Bill kind of introduced me to that. He introduced me to the idea of, um, Change the tape. Change the tape that's running, know, review the tape. And, um, that was, that was very helpful to me.

[00:12:50] Sammy: And, um, he put me in, you know, he's actually the one who guided me to, um, um, to, to j He encouraged me to go to Smith, coach, encouraged to, uh, to work with her and also to work with, um, other organizations like Landmark Forum. Uh.

[00:13:11] LuRae: Hmm.

[00:13:12] Sammy: And that was that was very helpful to me. So I would say the impetus was my coach encouraging me as part of growth to essentially, um, reexamine my belief system, uh, looking at, you know, reviewing the stories that I was telling myself and how I was interpreting those stories.

[00:13:31] LuRae: Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Actually, Landmark Forum is where I got the meaning making machines. You'll probably recognize that because it's one of the things that helps us understand how did I develop this belief system? I mean, and that it can, that can, that replicates just as I was saying, like the 5 percent that we're consciously making decisions.

[00:13:51] LuRae: Um, you know, the 95 percent is, you know, affecting? Do you have repetitive relationship issues? Do you have repetitive job issues, you know, with people on the job or making the same decisions over and over or, you know, so it's exactly that. So you were wise enough to reach out, connect with people, and then they were wise enough to guide you in the directions needed.

[00:14:13] LuRae: So that's so great. That is so great. So for other people who haven't taken those steps, like what, I guess, what advice would you have for people? To encourage them to get to their truth and steps that they could take. Right. Right.

[00:14:31] Sammy: What I would say, um, is that, um,

[00:14:34] LuRae: Right.

[00:14:37] Sammy: probably, uh, your greatest area of for both is, uh, in the product we call don't know, don't know when usually when I people want me to post them, I draw a circle which I learned from all the people who have coached me where in that circle, you have a small slice of a pie.

[00:14:54] Sammy: Which is what, um, what, you know, you know, like, you know, two plus two is four is the second slice of the pie, which is a bit larger, which is what, you know, you don't know, like, you may not know about physics. You may not know about economics, but, you know, you don't know that you can pick up a book. You can Google it or chat GPT.

[00:15:13] Sammy: But there's the part that you don't know that you don't know. And that's the part, you know, and one aspect of that is, um, your own self revisiting that, uh, your past. There's also obviously getting feedback from other people. Um, because, um, you know, nobody's their own mirror. You need others to reflect back to you, uh, a part of you.

[00:15:41] Sammy: Uh, so that's one aspect. This is where it's helpful to have coaches, helpful to, to, to have a group of people. And I would encourage people to be in a peer, especially if you're doing something big, if you're running a company, if you're in a leadership position, I encourage everyone actually, but particularly if you're in a leadership position, you need to be part of a peer group.

[00:16:04] Sammy: The research is astounding that people who are in a peer group, they have higher performance. than those who are not. So that's one area for you to go, uh, to essentially get others to reflect back to you your truth. But the, the other aspect and the biggest thing that everyone can do is, um, to do that, to do that shadow work.

[00:16:28] Sammy: This is the area for, uh, don't know, don't know, you don't know what you don't know, that has a potential to lead, to yield to you transformation of what we call nonlinear growth.

[00:16:42] LuRae: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's so much that we don't know that we don't know. And it's, and it's typically when something happens that is painful, that triggers us to. Step back and look, you know, the times I know that, yeah, I've, you know, sought out a therapist, you know, it was like something wasn't happening the way I hope that it would be happening.

[00:17:07] LuRae: And that's when we typically do that. And, and a coach. I mean, I became a coach when I was in New York City. And so I, you know, I see this, the contrast between, you know, there's a place for therapists, you know, but there's There's coaches also are so powerful in the way, just the techniques in the ways that we encourage people to look, you know, I always say to look forward, you know, the rear view mirror is small so that we don't spend a bunch of time focused on that, but we look enough to see what we just drove through or what we just walked through so that we can create something new and don't.

[00:17:42] LuRae: Drive on that same bumpy path again, or make those same decisions, you know, yeah, so it's, I agree with you. It's, it's so important that you have a support system and we all, we all need that with individual support. And then, as you said, like, you know, like, a mastermind, almost of, you know, leadership peers or other people who are experiencing similar things that you may be experiencing, and you can learn from each other, you know.

[00:18:13] Sammy: Absolutely.

[00:18:14] LuRae: And so what are some of the other things that you've used to stay the course? I mean, obviously stepping out of corporate America initially is. Like you said, I'm, I'm going to assume, which I should never assume or presume that that was one of the scary things that you did potentially, but talk about your transition out of what you were doing in a corporate role into your own business and, and what, what inspired you and, and then what kept you going once you got out on your own.

[00:18:42] Sammy: Sure. Uh, so, uh, in terms of, uh, what got me going is that, um, uh, when I went into corporate America, I was, uh, what you call a technical person. I had the doc, I had the masters. I was looking for my doctorate at one point, you know, uh, once I started, but I was, I was somebody who was what technical skills. So I was a technical contributor, um, but for a lot of people like me, whether it's engineers, IT professionals, at some point, You go from being technical to where you have to manage a project and then you have to manage people.

[00:19:15] Sammy: And then you manage several projects. And so for me, that was, of course, I became a project manager. And then I was a program manager where I was managing a portfolio of projects. And, um, in my company, and I think it's, it's true for many other companies, um, in America, where you, especially service companies, where you've become a program manager, that is you're in charge of a portfolio of work.

[00:19:41] Sammy: You're responsible for bringing new work and for delivering that work. So you're essentially a small company within the larger mothership. So you're essentially, um, you know, you're wanting a small PNL. Uh, and so you're kind of wanting a small business within larger business. Right? And I remember my boss when I would go to him and say, you know, this is this is the issue.

[00:20:03] Sammy: What do I do? He said, well, make the decision as if you were wanting the business.

[00:20:09] LuRae: Well, Andrew.

[00:20:10] Sammy: Imagine business owner make the decision. So I was kind of like being a business owner, so to speak, within the mothership. And, uh, one year I had a 100% success rate on winning new work. And some of my colleagues said, you're pretty good at this.

[00:20:25] Sammy: You should go on your own. And um, I talked to my boss and he said, well, you know, the reason that you're so, so, so successful is that you have the company behind you. And what I read into that is that it's almost like I'm a franchisee. Uh, the franchise is the mothership. I'm selling it. And then I said to myself, you know what?

[00:20:47] Sammy: I may not be able to win such large projects. Or maybe you have the same success rate, but it would be more beneficial to me

[00:20:56] LuRae: Right, right,

[00:20:57] Sammy: if I went smaller or less, but I'm keeping everything for me. And so that's what inspired me to go out. And then once that decision was made, I started to look, um, where could I make a difference?

[00:21:14] Sammy: What kind of clients are not being serviced now by my company and others that are essentially being neglected that I could serve.

[00:21:25] LuRae: right,

[00:21:25] Sammy: And, um, what I saw for me, and it may still be true, is that, um, there's always in any service sector, it's a set of clients that are underserved. the larger ones. And then it creates an opening for small business.

[00:21:45] Sammy: Like, you know, for me with my company, they were big. If you, if it wasn't a 1 million project, they were not going to put a lot of efforts to pursue it because a large company needs, um, a big fist, right? It's like a big base. You know, you can't fit a big base with a small, a small little piece of food. They need big fists.

[00:22:07] Sammy: Projects right to keep the machine going. Uh, so it means that, you know, if the company, if, uh, if, uh, in the industry, the large companies are going after a million dollar projects, well, guess what? There are people with 150, 200, 000 projects. If you cater to them, then you have an opening. And that's what I did.

[00:22:24] Sammy: I started out with those people that have small problem, but it's a small problems that the other big companies were not going to pursue up to a lot of effort. They will take it if they get, if you know, if somebody gave it to them, they'll take it. But they were not putting effort to persuade. So I decided, you know what, that's my focus.

[00:22:44] LuRae: So good. So good. And so, so I would say once you stepped out, like what helped you, what has helped you continue to like grow and expand? I know you've talked about the coaching and, and how that has been beneficial, but what are some of the other things that have really influenced how you've been able to be successful on your own?

[00:23:04] LuRae: Like, are there some things or things that you do that help you stay connected and, um, And grounded and growing

[00:23:14] Sammy: Um, well, um, you know, in terms of, um, business, you know, I mean, so with my, uh, my first company from, so that we, um, we grew very fast. Um, and, you know, we made the Inc 500 a couple of times, um, you know, regionally, we were getting all kinds of awards, you know, we were doubling and tripling, you know, that's how you get into the Inc 500.

[00:23:34] Sammy: We were doubling and, you know, one year we tripled. So just imagine right in the middle of the year. You have twice as many employees and that happened for several years. Um, I would say that, you know, the kind of thing that, um, that helped in terms of formula was, um, to high, high by high retention rate of clients.

[00:23:54] Sammy: So essentially you get a client and you go with that client and you're adding your client. So essentially, so when you get a client, Sell more services, more of that same service to the client and then sell new services to them. So it's essentially it's account growth, you know, uh, and, um, and that's something that I've learned prior to this company, which is, you know, kind of on average, you want to grow, you want to grow the amount of work that you're doing with your clients while you're adding new ones.

[00:24:23] Sammy: So that's a formula for growth. Right. I mean, so I have you, you came to me because you knew I could do this service, right? So a lot of people, when I said my company is called Symmetrica, it was a company basically, you know, sort of with doing data analysis, you know, analyzing data analytics, but then it grew up to, it grew to do more in public health in general, because the same clients that started out where they wanted me to do data analysis, They were the ones who said, you know what?

[00:24:50] Sammy: You are really good at project management. You, you know, data analysis is just one thing. You know, public health, we want to give you more work in public health. So that's really, uh, the formula essentially take care of your clients. Uh, you, you basically multiply year after year, you go the work that you do with them.

[00:25:09] Sammy: Um,

[00:25:11] LuRae: Offer to solve more problems across their business. Yeah

[00:25:16] Sammy: absolutely. And you know, and it's part of, you know, getting to know. So you get to know your clients and get to know their problems. And yes. And then once you have that trusted relationship, it's like, oh, so they trusted you with this problem. So they're more likely to trust you with other problems that are Yeah.

[00:25:31] Sammy: Uh, happening in the business.

[00:25:33] LuRae: Right, so i'm curious. What are some of the the most like rewarding aspects of your unique journey? Like if you look across the span of from starting you know as a little young person in haiti and then coming to the u. s and Working in a corporate role and then starting your own business selling that and then starting another one like what?

[00:25:54] LuRae: You What are some of the most rewarding aspects of your journey? Would you say your unique journey?

[00:26:01] Sammy: I think, uh, the most important aspect is, um, uh, first of all, uh, the people that have talked to me, you know, as a, as a business owner, there's nothing more rewarding to see people grow to see people buying their first house to see people that really were in the shell, uh, kind of started out shy and see them becoming manager.

[00:26:24] Sammy: In one case, that somebody Uh, who became, you know, a director, but sort of that just as a contributor, I mean, it's just, you know, it gives you so much joy to see that growth. And, um, when you hear people say, Oh, this is how. This is how Sammy would do it. You know, so essentially it's almost like you're replicating yourself, really like a business, it's really kind of like replicating your mindset, your way of thinking, your way of doing and passing it to other people.

[00:26:52] Sammy: So, um, you know, you can go for biology by essentially giving birth to somebody else that has your DNA. But the other thing is that you also must like giving your soul DNA, right? Creating to essentially replicate yourself for the people. Am I making sense? The way.

[00:27:08] LuRae: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Inspiring others to, to greater, greater growth within themselves. If it's, it's almost like if someone sees someone else. being successful. And in the case of you, you're, you're shining a light. And I mean, they're all the things you're saying are like inspiring someone buying their first house or having their first success in, Oh, I can do this project.

[00:27:33] LuRae: I can lead something, you know, something and other people will follow and, you know, And complete it. And so you being a light, you're lighting, you're, you're lending your light until others light their own flame and can carry that forward is what I'm hearing you say

[00:27:50] Sammy: yes, yes. You know, so to see that happening of all the people. Yes. And I've had some people tell me that, um, they're inspired by the type of company that I created. So my company was essentially a company focused on science methodology driven. Uh, most minority companies were doing more like the kind of, uh, uh, uh, Administrative janitorial services.

[00:28:15] Sammy: So really was, you know, uh, early in terms of saying, you know what? I'm uh, I want to be there in the decision making to talk about what's what needs to be done. I want to be part of decision making and helping you. And we have the skill sets to do that to help you. And I think, um, uh, you know, I didn't realize it then, but you know, there are a lot of people that came after me and this is where this is something that So when I was talking about my current company and said, you know, this is what we do, this is why I'm part of it and they were saying, well, you know, remember the first company, you know, you open the doors for a lot of minorities to be able to say, you know what, in public health.

[00:28:55] Sammy: I want to do the science part. Uh, you know, so they, but they want to be doing the scientific work. And so I'm part of that. I'm part of, uh, you know, igniting that fire, not just in people that work with me, but people on the outside that I didn't even work with, but they saw what I was doing. They said, you know what, I want to do that as well.

[00:29:15] Sammy: I'm inspired to do the same thing.

[00:29:17] LuRae: so good, which is so good. So, if they're for people out there, I guess this is kind of 1 of like, I leading to wrap up question people who are, are wanting to do something different and are just hesitant to take that 1st step. What. What advice would you give people to be brave enough to take that first step in pursuing something on their own?

[00:29:43] Sammy: What I would say is that, you know, if you have a desire, a fire in your heart, there's probably someone who has done it before. Look for the trailblazers. Look for someone that has done something. It may not be exactly the same, but it may be something similar. It may be somebody with a similar background that you have and pattern it and ask yourself, what is the approach that they took to get to that? What? What is what is that? What is the path? And then focus on that first step. A lot of times what I found out is that people want to have it all figured out. You don't need to have it all figured out. You just need to know what the first step, the next step is. And put all your efforts into that first step and, you know, and make that your priority, uh, to solve it.

[00:30:36] LuRae: Absolutely. Yes, because the rest of the road will be exposed. I always say God gives us enough light for one day and takes it away and gives us new light the next day. So we're inspired to take that next step and keep going. And the point is just don't give up. Like just once you make that commitment, just know that it will work out as long as you know where you want to head and you've got a direction you're going, you may tweak things just like you said, like startups and starting something new.

[00:31:07] LuRae: It's messy, but that's where the growth happens, right?

[00:31:12] Sammy: Absolutely. And you, you may well change it. A lot of companies, they start in a certain way, but they pivot, right? They, they, they change directions. They tweak it. And that's why it's important to start something that encouraged me to raise that, uh, when I, uh, was starting the entrepreneurial journey, somebody told me that, uh, it's like flipping a coin.

[00:31:33] Sammy: They said that that coin is not fair. It actually gets better. Like, you know, so you flip it, you may fail, but if you're learning from your lessons, Flip it again, you're increasing your odds of success and eventually you'll get 100%. And so that's what it is about. Yes, you, you do that first step and, uh, you may hit a ceiling, you, you may hit a woodblock, uh, but then you learn from that.

[00:32:00] Sammy: Um, and, but you know, you got to keep going.

[00:32:04] LuRae: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I'm definitely inspired by your journey and where you've come and encourage people to get your book. We'll put that link in the show notes below. And I just want to thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and what you've learned and encouragement to others to be their best selves.

[00:32:24] Sammy: Thank you. Thank you. Well, I hope it, uh, I hope somebody gets some nuggets of wisdom to keep them going.

[00:32:30] LuRae: Perfect. Thank you so much.

[00:32:33] Sammy: Thank you, Louay.