Helping Men Face Their Inner Demons with John Sendim

[00:00:00] Hector: Fellas, what's going on? I hope this episode finds you well, and I hope this episode leaves you better than when it found you. And today's episode is with John Sendham, and he is a therapist up in Canada. And today's episode we talk about That we talk about therapy for men and really the importance of it and all of the things that come along with it, why it's happening, why it's not happening, why it should be happening, what to do, how to incorporate and integrate that into a man's life, into your life.

[00:00:59] Hector: If this is something that. it's new and I'm excited that it's becoming less and less taboo. I mean, I would think about guys My dad's age would almost never consider going to therapy unless there was something like seriously seriously Wrong and here's the thing is as I think about it there are so many times when shit was like seriously seriously wrong in Lives of the men that I think about and what did they do?

[00:01:25] Hector: They decided to Avoid it, ignore it, pretend it didn't happen, or drink it away, or, work it away, or do all of these things to pretend like they didn't have any real issues and that everything was good, And, um, it wasn't. And so hopefully conversations like these can help to make it more okay for guys to get help.

[00:01:46] Hector: I need to do it more, but one thing that I've really leaned into, over the last bit is checking in on guys and on friends and just, making sure they're good. You know, just checking in, send them a message. And my favorite is just you good question mark because sometimes we're not and it's okay.

[00:02:03] Hector: Enough of that. Y'all let's get into this wonderful conversation with John. Send them.

[00:02:09] Hector: John, welcome to the modern masculinity podcast, man. Thanks for being here.

[00:02:12] John: for having me.

[00:02:13] Hector: Our tradition, if you will, on the show is to ask the guests to take us into their world because we could talk about, you know, the practice that you've built. We can talk about all the guys that you've been helping the T I mean, all the positive impact.

[00:02:25] Hector: But what I try and bring to the show is that despite all of that, despite all of the poses and the accolades and the pictures that like we as men and as people, we still have. things that we go through on a day to day and hour to hour sort of basis. So I'd love for you to take us into your world and share what's real oppression, challenges that you're going through as a, as a man, as a business owner, as a leader in a sense, what's real for you right now.

[00:02:49] John: Yeah, great question. what I would say for me is just building this practice, like getting, things going, completing the to do list because there's endless to do lists, whether it's personal or business related. And just supporting more men at the end of the day, right? Like there's this practice that I've built that I'm building.

[00:03:05] John: there's the need out there that men are suffering. They're suffering in silence. And I have this thing that can help them out and just reaching out to more men in that regard.

[00:03:15] Hector: I don't usually like to get into the backstory in the context of how people got to where they got I don't always think it's as relevant as like, well, tell me your story and how, you know, like, but what you're doing specifically, I think is, is really. I think it does call for that.

[00:03:30] Hector: And I think that given little bit of a context because, therapy has become this kind of, I don't want to call it like a buzzword, but it be buzzing. And then the next layer of like therapy then for men is like, I don't know if that's a buzzword, but it's like, that's starting to bloom or butter, you know, so tell how you got into this and why you thought it would be something kind of worth pursuing as your, at least your life's work right now.

[00:03:55] Hector: Yeah,

[00:03:57] John: I'm kidding. So say that as a kid growing up, like I was very curious, shy, but I always had an interest in listening to people talk about whatever's happening in their world. So I never thought I was going to become a therapist, to be honest. Again, in terms of like academics and being inclined for schooling as again, we see that a lot, a lot of men are going to university or applying themselves in school through my mom, encouraging me, pushing me.

[00:04:23] John: However you want to look at it. she believed in me, I guess, and pushed me to go into university I decided to, yeah, study like religion, philosophy, psychology, just trying to learn different, perspectives on life, suffering, all that kind of stuff. And it wasn't until I was in my second year of university where I had a tragic situation happen where my dad suffered a stroke.

[00:04:43] John: I had this guy that was my father, the provider supporting me, all that kind of stuff. And it just changed overnight. Like he was hospitalized, not able to speak, walk. So we had to become his caregivers and I was what, like 21, 22 at the time. I kind of had to be the man of the house now because I'm an only child.

[00:05:03] John: So it was just me and my mom, my dad, I was just like, Oh shit, no pressure there at all. And that led me to thinking about, okay, do I quit university? Do I get a job? Do I go help my parents? My family out in that regard my mom was always like, Nope, we'll figure it out. Just continue your studies. So I continue my studies and kind of going through that experience helped me in the career that I'm doing now, Because I get to use that reference point as a reflection of going through grief, bereavement, identity as a man, all these kind of different elements. eventually I did go to grad school to study therapy in grad school, my dad did pass away when I was doing my placement and just going through that notion now of like losing him as a person, So he was in the hospital for about like five years or so. and then he eventually passed and I had to kind of pick myself up. And again, be the man, at this point in my life now, I was, completing school about to get married, going to move out. So all these big life transitions and I'd have my dad to have that one on one talk about like all these different things.

[00:06:02] Hector: well, I'm curious for you when you're in the midst of all of this, I found that In absence of like rites of passage and in the absence of those sorts of things, in absence of that, life ends up becoming that right of passage these challenges, these experiences ended becoming what I've called like a crucible a crucible is either, going to break you or it's going to kind of make you And it's these, things that we run into, I'm curious for you if you ever had that sort of thing, like before made that moment, I have this victim, like, woe is me. Why is happening to me? Sort of thing. and I only stay in that place for a little while because I realized, well, this is happening for me, this is happening, not to me, but for me, I'm wondering if at a young age, you know, 20 something sort of thing, if you start to have those sort of realizations, or if you're just like, fuck, like, just try to just figure out, how to get day to day, you know, how to make it through the next class or the next whatever,

[00:06:54] John: I think because the time I was studying like Buddhism as well. And Buddhism taught me a lot about like suffering. It's like, this is the nature of reality. So it kind of like woke me up to that. It's like, yeah, you're going to experience a lot of suffering. That's part of life. Part of being human. So I'm like, ah, shit.

[00:07:08] John: Okay. I guess I got to go in for the ride. but also helped me develop that like empathy, compassion of being like, yeah, we go through suffering, but how can we make it so we don't suffer so much? We can suffer a bit less. Whether it's giving back, helping others out, whatever it might be that helps us in the process.

[00:07:24] John: So kind of going back to like a post traumatic growth. You can go through like a really traumatic experience and lead to post traumatic stress disorder. Or you can grow from that and learn and give back and have a meaning and purpose in life. So kind of going through this with my dad led me to do the work that I'm doing now, because then I went to the hospitals for my second placement and I was helping people on the stroke unit.

[00:07:47] John: So I was like, I was just there like a couple months back. Now I'm on the flip side of helping people. So now that was helping me in the process too, like I'm helping talking to patients, to family members, helping them go through their own grief and going through my own grief at the same time.

[00:08:01] John: So in parallel.

[00:08:02] Hector: Yeah, what's interesting is that as the, men's mental health thing becomes more, more prevalent, like that's of a taboo or whatever, it's more accepted for them to be emotional or to have feelings or whatever it may be. And on the other side, that doesn't prevent or that doesn't stop the responsibilities that are Still

[00:08:26] John: there. Yeah.

[00:08:27] Hector: right?

[00:08:27] Hector: to be the provider, to be the protector, to be all these things. And what I've found challenging is that You know, they say to feel your feelings, don't suppress them. And then it's like, okay, that's fine, but it's debilitating. And I've got to go cook dinner.

[00:08:42] Hector: I've got to make money. I've got to go like, so sit in these things, albeit, I don't know if effective is the right word like yeah that works and I see that and also guys in particular I think still have this obligation to kind of i'm even saying like fuck up Pick up yourself by your bootstraps like because i've been in those places where completely debilitated don't want to get out of bed and i'm just like

[00:09:05] Hector: I can feel this.

[00:09:07] Hector: I can continue to kind of feel this and I have to get up and go, I have to, you know, and so it's like, how do you help guys see that balance or work through that balance or realize that? Yeah. Shit's heavy. Lots of stuff's going on. and we still have this load that we carry as men, as providers for like, all these things.

[00:09:27] Hector: and or both, or actually, living and executing the both part has been a very, challenging. I find myself slipping back and forth from this focus, go, go, go mode where I'm like suppressing. Kind of because I'm like I got to just shut it out and then all these other sides where I'm like Completely like woe is me Depressed essentially and it's this back and forth and back and forth and it feels chaotic, you know

[00:09:52] John: No, absolutely. Yeah. It's you're trying to balance two different things and they're competing sometimes. Like you said, like if I have to go to work, pay the bills for my family, sometimes it can't be depressed or I got to do it depressed, right? Like I'm just going to show up half asset maybe again, depends on the profession you're doing.

[00:10:06] John: If you're working from home and maybe there's more flex, but if you're on the field, if you have to perform or something, then you kind of have to put that shit aside and be present. Cause again, if someone's life is at stake, that's on you at the end of the day too. So the thing that, I try to teach my clients is how do you take care of yourself when shit is going chaos, when there's so much going on, And therapy is one of those elements. Again, it's one hour out of your day on a weekly, bi weekly basis, depending on how frequent you're going, and that's the time that's for you, where you can Let all the shit out. I'm there to hold that safe space that would be that container to take that in and kind of sift through through it and help you see what's there.

[00:10:48] John: Well, like where the golden nuggets, what are the things that you can learn about yourself? Develop that awareness, the tools and strategies to implement it when those moments happen. So for example, if a client's dealing with, anger, cause that again, as men, that's our kind of default go to emotion, Okay. When anger is there, what do you do with it? Because again, anger blinds us to what's around us, right? It becomes narrow tunnel vision. So sometimes we just gotta, you know, take a step back and understand why are we feeling angry? Like, what's leading to these emotions? Again, it could be things that happened in our childhood that are now surfacing up in this present context.

[00:11:21] John: So the things that we haven't dealt with in the past are creeping back up in the future. In the present moment, sorry. So there are things that we have to look into, Shining the light. Okay, what's the stuff that I haven't dealt with again? For my example, if I didn't deal with my dad's grief, I'd be holding onto that and a client will share that they lost a parent.

[00:11:38] John: Then I'll start crying in session again. That can still happen to some degree. And that's me empathizing with the client, right? It's like, Hey, I know what that's like. I've been there. Again, sometimes I could share, sometimes I don't share depending on the client and the relationship. But just like, yeah, we go through this hard time as men that we have to hold the whole world on our shoulders, But there's support available to us that we can't talk, whether it's a buddy, Hey, I need a guy's night. Can we go out, hang out? And yeah. Talk about the shit that's going on in the world with ourselves, can I go to therapy? Can I go to the gym even, for example, use exercise or any tools that's going to help us feel good.

[00:12:14] John: But then we can handle the rest of the things that we have to handle.

[00:12:17] Hector: that's a really good point that when I'm dwelling or internalizing or whatever kind of going down this negative, it's like cycle. It's usually me taking it all on my own. I'm kind of isolating myself and it's And more recently I've realized that in those times, it's like, I'm fortunate to have like five or six guys that I know I can just text and be like, Hey, you know, shits at the fan again.

[00:12:40] Hector: I would love just chat, a lot of times they're 5, 7, 10, 15 minutes for phone calls. They're not long. don't have to be these, long sort of things. But all of a sudden that weight just feels a little lighter. it just gets a little more manageable.

[00:12:53] Hector: and I realized that, up until I'm only 32, but for the first 30 years, 31 years of my life, I tried to take on all of those things by myself, everything. I would just try and figure out on my own. And ruminate and ruminate

[00:13:06] John: And that's kind of the messaging we get as men, right? It's like suck it up, do yourself. Don't reach out for help because again, depending on our upbringing, our experiences, if we've got burned in the process, like, Hey, I reached out, this person screwed me over. I'm not going to trust people. I'm going to figure this out on myself and I'm going to burn myself out, hurt myself in the process to figure it out, but I'm not going to reach out for help, but we know that's not the case.

[00:13:30] John: If we need help. It's okay to reach out. It's okay to ask the K. I don't have the answer to this. I'm not a plumber or electrician. I need someone to do that to help me out with that.

[00:13:39] Hector: And for me, I made the mistake of dumping all that on my wife at the time.

[00:13:43] John: Yeah.

[00:13:44] Hector: was no one else, wasn't normal for my friend group of guys to talk about. Anything other than sports or girls Not with any sort of depth, we were talking about girls with some depth or like, relationships like okay But it wasn't that it was stupid stuff. It was surface level stuff. And so I go well, you're my partner you're Who you're supposed to fulfill, you're the one that's to And so it was only when realizing that I needed a separate space to process, to unload, to whatever, that allowed me to come back to my family.

[00:14:20] Hector: That allowed me to come back to these other responsibilities in a more whole place. and it just seems like, More and more guys are waking up to that, but I know, I mean, you see some of the statistics and it's like more and more people just don't feel like they have close friends and for guys, at least for me, if I wasn't intentional about that stuff, it wouldn't just happen if I didn't have a list of guys written down that I'm like, okay, in these instances, like these are the guys, you know, if I'm not proactive in that way, then nothing really happens, or I'm, I'm left to deal with it on my own. And I feel like that's where most, I don't know, maybe I'm speaking out of turn here, but like, I feel like most guys are in that spot where maybe they have one or two people that they can call, know, when shit really hits fan, maybe, you know, otherw otherwise it's just they're left to their own devices.

[00:15:05] John: The good thing that I see nowadays is there's this, movement again in terms of like men's groups. So there's a lot more that's happening. And this was popular back in the nineties as well. There's like a movement around like men's group with Iron John book and the King Warrior, Mitch lover. And I think that's coming to the forefront in today's culture, men are taught that, Hey, there's groups available. If you're dealing with shit, go sign up for this group. And I think that what we're doing here in Canada, or I think maybe it was, in the UK or in Australia somewhere, there's a concept called the men's shed where as men, we need something to do because sometimes just talking in a circle is like a little weird or awkward when I used to it, but if you give a guy something to do, then they can be able to open up a bit more.

[00:15:46] John: So what the men shed is, there'll be like tools, people can work on projects, and then in that they can have a conversation as a result too. So they're busy doing, and they're talking to,

[00:15:55] Hector: Yeah.

[00:15:55] John: cool.

[00:15:56] Hector: You know, I started a men's group here in Orange County in Southern California, just because. There was a whisper, and it's the same whisper that made me start this show. It wouldn't go away. I told it, fuck, I'm busy. I don't have time enough. And just kept whispering and whispering and whispering.

[00:16:11] Hector: And so I started it on Meetup, and I think now we just crossed 150 members. And I've done no, no promotion of it. No, there's been, it's just

[00:16:21] John: That's

[00:16:21] Hector: got guys were like, I've been for this and I haven't found it. Empowering is the wrong word because don't feel good about the fact that there is a need of that, but I feel good about providing that for guys who otherwise, they're like, I don't know where I would get this sort of support.

[00:16:39] Hector: And what's interesting is We did a hike a few weeks ago because what you're saying, kind of this, I'm not really a, handy crafty kind of guy, but I do like to get out and walk in nature and all that of stuff. And so in the same thing, the conversations that were happening just while we were walking and out and, we were carrying a kettlebell and a minute, like there was just these things happening, the conversations that happened there are right.

[00:17:01] Hector: They're flowing. and I think that guys having that to, like you said, when you said shed, I thought you meant shed, like snake shedding their, skin. Cause that's what it also feels like too, like you're walking around getting rid of some of this weight, the shame, frankly, that, we carry because we think that we're all unique in our problems or our fucked up NIS, but all of a sudden we're like, share something.

[00:17:21] Hector: The guy's like, Oh, me too. And the other guy's like, yeah, me too. And, and, you know, there,

[00:17:25] John: just one person start.

[00:17:27] Hector: there's some solidarity of that.

[00:17:29] John: No, that's awesome to see that. And that's why I offer like walk and talk therapy here. Cause when I was doing my research and everything, yeah, for men, it's hard to sit in a room across each other and have that eye contact and everything can be intimidating. So how do you do therapy outside, walking side by side, and we're actually walking through the problem together and not being alone in that people can share.

[00:17:50] John: We're together in that. And there's nature elements, right? Because I live beside, a lake and stuff. So I get this beautiful view of the CN tower, the city skyscrapers. And then the other one is sky and water, which is beautiful. And that's therapeutic. That could be meditative, Just sit on a rock and look into the vastness.

[00:18:06] John: Now look to the busy city and all that kind of stuff.

[00:18:08] Hector: I'm curious when you're working with your clients, what sort of, I can take this one of two ways. Is there a thing that you see come up like over and over and over and over again where you're just like, Oh, it kind of like, here's another one. Or is anything that's surprising? Let's go with that first.

[00:18:23] Hector: Is there something that you're like, you just see and like, guys, they just come in and they're like, this is, uh,

[00:18:30] John: the thing that I've been noticing lately, cause I usually ask like, what makes you come to therapy? why did you decide to come therapy now? it'll be kind of like that chaos of like, Hey, shit's overwhelming. I can't handle it. I need help. a lot of things that I'm noticing too is there's a lot of new guys coming to therapy.

[00:18:44] John: They never done it before, but now they're starting to do it, which is great. It's good to see that. and it all comes down to like, I think, emotional regulation. They're having big feelings, whether it's like anger, anxiety, and they don't have the tools or strategies in place to deal with it. So they're reaching out for support.

[00:18:58] John: It's like, Hey, I'm going through this hard time. All these things are coming up. This is new to me. What can I do with this, How can I get help in this area so I can be a better father, better husband, a better person, a better employer,

[00:19:11] Hector: What are some of the, I don't know if they're symptoms. What are sort of the signals or the, not red flags, but like the alarm bells that go off for guys that they're like, this is, now I need help,

[00:19:22] John: I would say it's usually for guys that are like in a relationship, there's something that's happening in the relationship, whether it's lack of communication, lack of intimacy, there's something missing now maybe they're shutting down again. They're escaping their feelings. They're like, Nope, I don't want to deal with this.

[00:19:37] John: Maybe they're being short, outbursts of anger of like blah, blah, blah, like getting really into that. And so they're like, I can't deal with this anymore. Or the partner will be like, if you don't change, then we're going to break up. We're going to separate. And if they have kids, they don't want that.

[00:19:51] John: They want to keep the family unit together. So now it's like, Oh shit, I got to look in the mirror, figure out what to do here. And get that help. Now reach out. So it's usually like in a crisis mode, not like 100 percent crisis, but like they're again, hard time. They don't know what to do. So they go on Google, type in therapy for men and then reach out and book that consultation.

[00:20:11] Hector: yeah, well, geez, that's what happened for me. I mean, my, marriage started to fall apart and the part of the problem I'm doing everything I thought I was supposed to be doing. I'm trying. there's not for a lack of effort. it was, a lack of, I don't know, everything else, skill awareness.

[00:20:26] Hector: it wasn't for trying's sake. and I think that there comes a place where guys are just, they kind of throw their hands up and they're like, I've done this. I've done this all the ways that I think I can do it. And, least for me, almost like, didn't seem like another option.

[00:20:41] Hector: Thankfully, I know podcasts, so I'm like, all right, I'm fucking dealing with, with this. I can start a podcast. Let me start a podcast. And that's my therapy we just published episode 69 or 68 or something like that. And the value that I've gotten personally from having these conversations has been immense, but how do I not?

[00:21:00] Hector: Had that capability had I not run a podcast company like I don't know that I would have turned to therapy

[00:21:06] John: Mhm.

[00:21:07] Hector: I'm like, there was so many, so many objections in my head. It's not for me. It's not for guys. going to work. It's for whatever. It's all just, you know, like all these, things in my head even stopped me from looking at therapy as an option.

[00:21:21] John: Can I ask you a question there? Where did that come about? Like, how did you have those notions in mind about like therapy and all that kind of stuff?

[00:21:28] Hector: I grew up in a very Mexican American machismo sort of family. cellos were all around growing up the ideal man was hardened even. so for me, There was this notion that like, oh, therapy is for women. That's for to like go through and work out there because they're emotional, Women are emotional, so they need therapy. And that was kind of the mindset that I was, coming in because prior to, my relationship going the way that I'm wed and having kids, all these sort of things, I would never consider myself a very emotional person. I'm pretty cool, even keeled like guy.

[00:22:03] Hector: No, you just suppress the shit out of everything. And the moment you had any instance of any sort of emotion, you had these, grooves that allowed you to, for me, it was like, Oh, I'm not really emotional. And I was like, but you're pretty angry sometimes because all your sadness got converted into anger so I had all these misconceptions about me and saying like, I'm not this person.

[00:22:25] Hector: It's not for me. It's not. And then realize like, I don't know and even still there's been a lot of things, you know, like I still have not had a actual therapist, you know I have a lot of friends and some who are certified and whatever but even for me the thing in my head that i'm saying right now is like One reason I love doing the podcast is because I can get, therapy sort of from 70 different people as opposed to my own sort of limiting beliefs as like this one person. I'm almost like, how are they going to help me? Sort of this air of like, I'm so whatever, but those are the things that Prevent me from going, Oh, yeah, and then, costs and who's the thing and all the, Oh, you've got to find the right one and therapists is like dating and all these sorts of things kind of like, I just put it over there, but that's why I wanted to have this conversation because I feel like so many guys are like me and, I have some tools and support in terms of people to talk to and all that sort of stuff.

[00:23:19] Hector: So I try and get that. Therapeutic sort of, other ways, but I know I'm, probably on further on the spectrum in terms of resources like that than most guys, most guys don't have, 70 people that are all trained in men's work and train like, that they can call on or, so know that most guys don't have that unique sort of opportunity, which is why like a therapy, I think is so valuable

[00:23:43] John: Yeah. so thank you for sharing that. And you can see there's so many barriers to entry for men, right? So, therapy did start as, a thing for females, I think with like Freud, like his first patient was female, and then it kind of got into, into that realm. But men also have emotions, right?

[00:23:57] John: It's not just women have emotions, men also have emotions, and we need to. Be taught the tools and strategies to deal with those emotions. Cause again, if anger is the default emotion that as men, we express to hide our sadness, that's going to create some shit in the world, wars and all these kinds of things are going to start because of that.

[00:24:13] Hector: not to get semantical with you, but I think you, you also kind of highlighted a maxim in the culture is that men have to deal with their feelings, right? Men have to deal with their emotions. And there's almost this sort of like, ah, you got to deal with that person. You got to deal with like, It's not something that you necessarily look forward to or that you wouldn't use dealing with in terms of an enjoyable experience. And on the flip side, what I've realized is that, like, I always saw emotions as this. Negative sort this thing that hindered you, it was this chaotic sort of whatever, as opposed to no motions can actually, not when dealt with, but when worked with and utilized and, all of like, when you start to, to approach it that way, it can be this, asset as opposed to this liability, right?

[00:24:57] Hector: what I had always put emotions as in this liability, where if you get too emotional, you get to whatever. That's not good. And so the default for me, it was like, all right, if that's the case, let me just suppress, let me just slam down. me just, yeah, shut it all down. And now it's like, okay, how do I actually work with the emotion, the energy?

[00:25:17] Hector: how do I utilize that? and that's where I'm at now is is this opportunity? Like, I've been the most. Sad. I've ever been in my life, you know, over the last several months, but, and that's also because I've allowed myself to like, go to that place interesting.

[00:25:33] Hector: I've had some of the most joyous sort of moments, Like both. And I don't think that you can get one of the, you know, you can't get both without each other. It's just this even killed sort of thing doesn't allow you to even experience. The good, quote unquote, good emotions.

[00:25:51] John: Yeah. Cause you need joy and sadness, right? If you don't know sadness, you're not going to know joy and vice versa. all the emotions are data points. It's okay. It's a signal that something's going on that we've got to pay attention to. So when we're sad, okay, why are we sad? What's happening? Oh, like your parents just passed away.

[00:26:05] John: Obviously you're going to be sad. You're grieving, And the same thing when you're happy, like when your child's born, it's a beautiful thing. So we need all this, all these emotions to, to tap into it, to understand, okay, that what's happening inside of me, around me, that's making me feel this way.

[00:26:20] Hector: And I think the fucked up part is that I've had, interactions with my ex wife, back when we were together and I remember being like, like having this experience and being like, I have no idea why I'm reacting this way. the reaction did not match the circumstances.

[00:26:35] Hector: And that for me was, I was like, there's something else that's causing me to feel this sort of way that has nothing to do with what's going on right now. And so that's when you start looking into like, you know, inner child work and going back to like, I think that's also the fucked up part that a lot of guys are running into is that they are like, not only do you kind of have to deal with what you have going on now, but when you're starting the process, you have this extra layer of having to go back and deal with all the stuff that you didn't deal with before.

[00:27:03] Hector: And if you're like me. You didn't deal with any of it. You just suppressed it, moved on. Suppressed it, move on. Forget about it, move on. And you start to go and unpack, and I feel like, I liken it to like, digging out clay, like at beginning, it's like soft and wet and it's malleable and if you get it out early, it's much easier, but after years and years of acting and compacting on top of each other, you've got to go in and bring like a sledgehammer in there and it's all messy and it's dirty and but it's also, I feel like a necessary part to get through all of that fucking drought and everything that got stuck in there over the years.

[00:27:36] John: And that's where like a therapist comes in, To support you. You're not alone in that. And they can help shed light on those areas of, okay, let's look over here. So part of therapy is, yeah, doing that inner child work as an adult now. So when you have kids too, as you're parenting your kids, you're some aspects of parenting yourself.

[00:27:52] John: Yeah. Yeah. Cause you're offering your kids perhaps what you didn't get for those that are parents and fathers and stuff like that.

[00:27:58] Hector: Yeah, it's really interesting. We had a, uh, Guy named Tiziano. I can't say his last name. He's a beautiful man. He's like the most good looking guy ever. I'm very heterosexual But i'm like damn it. This guy's good looking, dude Oh, but he talked about family constellations and what he was saying was like his thesis was about a lot of the let's just call it ruts or grooves, emotional ruts or grooves that we're in as adults stem from what happened with our parents and with our kids, or when we were kids.

[00:28:26] Hector: And so that a lot of the things that are happening right now, like if we look back to the source, if you will, or, you know, as a child, we can start to see some of the beginnings of those. And then also the. That's the word I'm looking for. The coping mechanisms that we established when we were kids that we're still playing out as adults.

[00:28:51] Hector: I remember there was one time where, my ex wife, she was leaving on a trip, to go out of town. And I remember for a work trip, I just remember bawling uncontrollably, like just uncontrollably. And I'm like, I don't know. You're gonna be back in two days. I have no idea what's going on.

[00:29:08] Hector: And I start to look back and back and back and it's like, When you identify some things as a kid, it's like, oh, yeah, that those sort of things, there's a remembrance of those events as a kid that never got cleared out. And so now four or five year old me, maybe three year old to two, three year old me is sitting here, weeping in front of,

[00:29:28] John: Yeah.

[00:29:29] Hector: this grown woman.

[00:29:30] John: Yep. Absolutely.

[00:29:32] Hector: when I'm saying I'm like, it feels like a lot for guys.

[00:29:35] John: Mm. And it can be,

[00:29:37] Hector: Because like, that whole thing, like if you knew what it would take to start a successful business, like if you ask successful business owners, like, Hey, if you knew everything that it was going to take to get to this point, like, would you do it again?

[00:29:46] Hector: A lot of them are like, fuck no, you know, because they see the totality of it and the entirety of it. perhaps that's the issue is we're looking at. The whole iceberg, right? Or we're looking at, I don't know, the whole mess, we're looking at a hoarder's house and it's like, fuck,

[00:30:01] John: Yeah. overwhelming. Yeah.

[00:30:03] Hector: Right. And so maybe you have, maybe with that kind of thing, maybe you have some direction of like, okay, guys, like, yes, it's a lot of shit to clean out. But let's start here. Like when I'm cleaning the house, I'm like, all right, let me pick my corner. Let me start corner and then I can work from there and I can kind of see progress.

[00:30:18] Hector: Do you have some sort of something like that where it's like, okay, yeah, we know shit's fucked up, but like, let's start here. Is

[00:30:24] John: Absolutely. Yeah. So that's where, the first session is all about the assessment part, right? Where you try to gather as much information from the client as you can. You talk about therapy goals and all that kind of stuff. And you start mapping out the work. Okay. Which room are we going to tackle first?

[00:30:40] John: Okay, let's start with this small bedroom or this bathroom or whatever, going back to your hoarding example, and let's just clean that up first. But somehow, maybe there's like, a string or something that's tied to another room. So now we have to follow that string, see where it leads us. And it's like, Oh, okay.

[00:30:53] John: It leads us to this area. So maybe let's start over here. Right. so my role as a therapist is to listen to all the things that my clients are saying and trying to pick up where to kind of go. And then asking the client, like, Can we go here? And if they're ready for it again, depending on what they're coming to therapy for.

[00:31:10] John: Yeah, maybe they're ready to explore that. Or maybe it's so hard that they're not ready just yet.

[00:31:14] Hector: is it normal for things to be, like you said, connected on a string like that? is it possible to see, you know, to kind of expand on this analogy, see something go from the downstairs bat, Bedroom bathroom to the upstairs bedroom, right where it's like something that doesn't seem connected that they would be connected are actually You know

[00:31:32] John: think so. Yeah. because again, we're, human beings at the end of the day, right? So, Most of our, the stuff that happens can be in regards to relationships. So depending on your parent dynamics, family dynamics, all that kind of stuff, maybe there's some issues that are there that are connected. So if you go back to childhood and in your current relationship, maybe there's a thread, a theme that's connected there.

[00:31:54] John: Oh, maybe when I felt abandoned, I would shut down, cry or whatever. And now that's showing up in this relationship, so you see that it's kind of like a theme that's connected, but only when we look and start connecting those dots that we can see what's the thing that's there where it could be like abandonment or shame or, guilt or whatever it might be. So it's going to take many layers and maybe the, string is entangled somewhere. So it's stuck in a certain area. So part of the process of untangling it, seeing like, okay, where else does it go?

[00:32:20] Hector: Do you have favorite? Modalities, you know, I think part of the the challenge for me as i'm like talking through something feels Like step one, but at least for me The integration process usually comes there's usually some sort of somatic, at least for I've found that to be necessary for me to have like a real breakthrough where I can like feel a little better if I talk about it, but that doesn't actually change anything until I, you know, have a deep, brief breath work session or, or, you know, some, something like that, which

[00:32:53] John: Yeah.

[00:32:54] Hector: don't know what it creates, but I found that for me too, has also been why, I haven't jumped into therapy because I'm like, it feels, or at least I'm not connecting all of the dots, Or I'm, it feels, at least from the outside, incomplete in that sense.

[00:33:09] John: No, I think that that's an important, thing to acknowledge too, right? And again, when you're looking for a therapist is trying to ask therapists, certain questions that's going to help you make the decision of what therapist you want to work with. So if you know you, you prefer more of a somatic, type approach, then finding a therapist that's trained in that area.

[00:33:25] John: Because especially as men, we're always in our heads and we have to get deep into our bodies. And it's something that Conor Beaton talks about a lot in his podcast and his work. And I'm doing a training with him now too. And it's like, how do you get a guy right into his body, into the breathing?

[00:33:38] John: So he can connect with those feelings of anger, sadness that's there. But again, that's been suppressed, been shut down. That's been hidden, Because again, guys will talk, rationalize and be like, yeah, I'm fine. I'm good. But there'll be like a visceral response inside their body. And then when you check in, it's like, what's going on there?

[00:33:54] John: And they're like, Oh yeah, that's my sadness or my anger or whatever. So as soon as you label it, point to it, then they can get in tune with it and start working with it. Now it's like, ah, I know what this is. It's uncomfortable. I don't want to go there, but I need to go there to kind of work through this.

[00:34:09] John: So I don't, have angry outbursts. I'm a wife and kids or whatever, as I get with myself, as I talk through these things, and now I can approach it in a different situation.

[00:34:19] Hector: Another thing I'm curious to get your thoughts on is I remember when I started doing this work, I thought, I was getting in touch with my emotions and, you know, whatever, feeling the things I was like, I thought I would be. I would immediately get, like, more peaceful. And what was interesting is at the beginning, I was actually a lot more angry. I was, because I was letting it bubble up, and of course, like, it was a really interesting thing, because there was a moment where I was like, this isn't working.

[00:34:42] John: But it

[00:34:43] Hector: is actually, this is actually, I, yeah, I felt like I was going backwards though. And thankfully I had some people that some fortuitous stick to itiveness or whatever to kind of keep going through that.

[00:34:51] Hector: But I remember being like, I'm way more angrier now than I was two weeks ago when I didn't think I had an anger problem,

[00:34:59] John: it's kind of like Pandora's box that you finally opened it. And now it's there. It's like, okay, now what?

[00:35:03] Hector: Yeah.

[00:35:04] John: is scary. It's overwhelming. It's like, ah, I don't know. I don't want to really feel my anger. Again, especially depending on what was anger like growing up around you, In the environment, how you saw your parents when they were in their angry state.

[00:35:14] Hector: Yeah. that's a great point. It's like these, caricatures of emotions that we hold in our head that prevent us from. because previously anger, it was a distinctly negative emotion.

[00:35:28] Hector: as I started to realize that, I'm like, no, well, why would no anger gives you strength. anger allows you to, and growing up, and the interesting thing was just like, I always struggled with that ability to hold my boundaries, to feel confident in myself, you know, not feeling weak, like, and it was just, I had this misappropriation of my anger, and thinking that I should never, ever be angry, and if I'm angry, it's bad, and if I'm angry, it's my fault, as opposed to, now when I get angry, I'm like, Okay, what boundary is being pinched on Because I'm not a naturally angry person. Like, I'm not, so then I go, oh, yeah, they're trying, they're doing this. That's against your boundary. Normally, I would have gone, I'm being angry. I'm being emotional. Let them walk all over me now. It's like, okay, I noticed the anger. I'm not going to, I'm going to process, I'm not going to get angry at them, but at least it gives me the confidence to go that this is not unbased.

[00:36:24] Hector: But I'm not, just doing this just to be an asshole. whereas previously I've thought that every bit of anger was just someone being an asshole.

[00:36:31] John: But you can see like, that's our evolutionary makeup, right? Like we have these emotions for a reason that we're going to react similarly depending on our experiences in background. So again, that same situation, if I grew up in that same environment, I would react the exact same thing. Same way, So our brains are wired all the same, but it's how we went to the input that comes in that then leads to the reaction to the output. And the whole thing with anger is when we don't have a voice. So again, as boys, we're not usually able to speak our mind, Oh, just shut up. Stop crying. I'll give someone to cry about.

[00:37:03] John: So what does that lead to? Suppression, We'll just stuff it down, ignore it. And now, as an adult, we're trying to speak up in a meeting or something. And your boss is like, Oh, no, stop talking or shut up or whatever. So that little boy is now coming up and it's like, what the hell, what's going on here?

[00:37:15] John: So, and then we get enraged, like, Oh, I'm going to fight this guy now. Again, a natural response to what's happening. But that, how do we control that anger and be like, okay, there's a boundary that's being crossed here. This person's saying something that's again, going back to my childhood. How do I now breathe, use the body as where to feel my anger, breathe into that area and then kind of let it calm down and then approach the situation in a different way.

[00:37:37] Hector: Yeah, really good stuff, John. I've been, probably going for more hours and hours, but, if people want to get deeper in your world, stay connected with you. Where's the best place to go? Sweet.

[00:37:48] John: I would say probably my website. So uplift therapy for men. com. again, I can only work with people that are located in Canada, specifically Ontario province of Ontario, but people are welcome to reach out on Instagram. So uplift therapy for men as well. If they have any questions, comments, shoot me a DM happy to answer again.

[00:38:05] John: It won't be therapy or anything related, but always happy to share anything that I have here.

[00:38:09] Hector: We'll link all that up in the show notes as well. I want to thank all you fellows for sticking with us today and being here. We would be forever grateful for a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts. And if you know a guy or Cow or, you know, a bird, I don't know, a cow, whoever needs to hear this, send it to them.

[00:38:25] Hector: And, let's grow the tribe together. I say a cow. Cause before were recording, I, I saw a baby cow being born. It's just like, Jesus, the things that are on Instagram. So, but I don't know, guys, let's grow the tribe together. it's really cool. What's, bubbling over this first year and some change.

[00:38:39] Hector: So we appreciate you being here, but, we'll see on the next one. Later y'all.