The Silent Struggle: Why Men Are Losing Themselves in Success with Jeff Boyer

[00:00:00] Hector: What's going on? I hope this episode finds you well and, I hope this episode leaves you better than when it found you. I feel like it's been a while. You know, sometimes these. They come out when they, they come out. And , I appreciate you being here no matter where you and when you're listening to this, , I really am honored that you would allow me to be a part of your day, a part of your life, part of your journey, your evolution.

[00:00:57] Hector: And I don't take that lightly. I'm, I. Honored and humbled, uh, to play, uh, any sort of role that you allow in that. And today's episode is with Jeff Hittner and he is the founder of Ambitious Dads , and someone who I think is, it's so important because these conversations are becoming more and more important for guys like you and me who are in the thick of it.

[00:01:20] Hector: And. This is, is so real for me because I'm, I'm pushed up against the wall over these last few weeks about, you know, trying to be a great dad and a great provider and a great business owner and a great, you know, person and, and just live my, you know, be and live and, and it's fucking a lot. Is it hard? I think it's a skill issue, right?

[00:01:42] Hector: It's, it's about us getting better and, uh, I'm excited to bring you this episode in. Hopes and in intentions, to help you expand as a man, as a father, as a future father, uh, or even as a, uh, you know, an uncle, a godfather, uh, a leader of, of young men. But, um, enough of me, y'all, I believe you're gonna enjoy today's episode with Jeff Hittner.

[00:02:08] Hector: Jeff, welcome to the Modern Masculinity Podcast. Thanks for being here, my man.

[00:02:12] Jeff: It is my pleasure. I'm looking forward to having the conversation.

[00:02:15] Hector: Take us into your world. We always ask to, , the listeners go into your world a bit because they probably heard about your accolades and some of the cool things that you're doing, , in the intro, but I'd love for you to take them into your world today, you know, as a dad, as a husband, as a business owner.

[00:02:32] Hector: You know, just as a guy, right? Like, even aside from all those, just like a person, , what sort of things are you still wrestling with challenged with, you know, musing over, , that's like coming up, you know, today.

[00:02:46] Jeff: , I mean, everything. So I would start right into my biggest challenge is always my own emotional regulation as a dad. I've got two boys. They are four and seven. There'll be five and eight in a few months. And, , temper tantrums are still a part of my daily routine. And, when it started, when they were super, super young, I, couldn't hold it together myself for a minute or two, much less the 20 or 30 minutes that some of these tantrums took, , and.

[00:03:16] Jeff: , that is not like an overnight journey for change as someone who wasn't really taught how to emotionally regulate when I'm frustrated. And of course, these two human beings that I love more than anything in the world are in front of me. And so I think that is one of the biggest challenges that I, , confront daily.

[00:03:34] Jeff: and it's not about the temper tantrum, right? It's about you know, I want to. Do everything I can to be a great dad. I want to do everything I can for my son to calm his emotional state and give him what he needs. And when that doesn't happen, it elevates my angst even more. And it becomes like a vicious cycle and learning about my own triggers and my history with that.

[00:03:56] Jeff: , and managing that is, part of my evolution to, , what I've launched, which is the ambitious dads program. ,

[00:04:03] Hector: I want to talk on that because I think like don't get to see inside the houses of the people that we don't live with. Right. And what I mean by that is that we only know our own sort of experience is normal. And I remember when my kids were about two or three and like, as I'm saying, it's like probably the worst time to have a yelling, like if they're, you know, in their most impressionable.

[00:04:28] Hector: Times. Right. And, I've really worked on it and talked and sort of, thinking about that, capacity to hold those tantrums. Right. I remember it. I could feel my, nervous system. I could feel my, Nerves in my hair, like, everything's starting to rise up my back, and just knowing this is not, like, you're just getting upset because they're upset, it is simply your inability to regulate your own shit.

[00:04:57] Hector: And I think that that was a big, like, I had that big realization from my parents and people that were, I, I was upbringing was like, they couldn't handle someone being a little rowdy or rambunctious or loud or singing like they couldn't handle that. And so they just stomped it out.

[00:05:14] Hector: it just kind of reminds me, we've done, a pretty good job in our house to sort of allow emotions. Right. But then also. Process I think both of those is really, really important. , because one without the other is sort of, you know, you can't have one without the other.

[00:05:32] Jeff: I would go even a step further and say repair because I'm gonna screw up and I screw up a lot. And, , this is so important to me, but I will never. Feel so much shame that I won't apologize afterwards. And in fact, my kids, I don't know what this means about my improvement on my emotional regulation or not, but my kids are, so versed in my repair and their repair that it is actually a really beautiful thing in our family.

[00:06:00] Jeff: Like when people calm down, like there's no just moving on there's, apologies, like, we know that. and we know this as adults, right? Like we can't teach when someone is in a tantrum, right? So when that moment comes for repair, and my son apologizes, or I apologize, depending on whose tantrum was worth, right?

[00:06:22] Jeff: Like that's the moment where I'm like. No, , next time you got to remember that, like, it's only one dessert after dinner or, you know, whatever it is, right. And, , or you don't hit your brother, , no matter how angry he makes you. Right. And, , it's the processing and then the repair and, I have found repair makes me also feel better as a dad for all the mistakes that I make trying to be a better dad.

[00:06:47] Hector: Yeah. I'm glad you bring up the repair part. I talked about it on the show too, but a lot of people, who are, let's just call it other family members are not so great at, apologizing. You know, some of them are very,

[00:07:00] Hector: they're very stubborn And so for me early on like I I had to set an example and what's really interesting is that it allows us to sort of move forward in sort of a loving way because I was really surprised the other day my six year old son He had some blow up and I came down kind of like hard at him, but like not hard in a it wasn't bad, you know, relatively speaking. And I, think that there was reason and like, you know, but the point being is like afterwards, maybe three or four minutes later, he came up to me and like, asked me a question and gave me a hug.

[00:07:34] Hector: And I was like, we moved past it, we didn't stew on it, whereas I've had, whether it's parental figures or, partners or relationships where that stewing would go on for days or, Weeks, even sometimes where there's no repair and then there's no ability to move the relationship forward or, or reconnect you know, that repair has to happen at some point in order to establish that reconnection.

[00:07:59] Hector: And I think with our kids, to your point, like if we don't have that connection, there's no teaching that's possible. it's going to land either on deaf ears or resentful ears and the, best way to sort of teach our kids is kind of like be on the same side and, you know, walking alongside, a couple of steps ahead of them, if you will, but still alongside of them, not, dragging them where they, feel like they don't want to go.

[00:08:22] Jeff: Absolutely. wrote an article recently about how, talking about my weaknesses and vulnerabilities and what I want to work on as a dad with my kids inspires them, right? Because the whole point, you know, the whole modern movement around learning it, it's around growth mindset. It's around, , always being inspired.

[00:08:42] Jeff: To, , expand how you can behave, how you can learn and all these things. , and so I tell them what I'm working on when it comes to my emotions. And I tell them that I, just screwed up. So it's not just the repair. It's like, this is what I'm working on and this is how I'm doing it this week. Or like, .

[00:08:58] Jeff: We have a gratitude, , activity that we do every day. I bought like cheap on Amazon, this, wallpaper of a tree. So I call it our gratitude tree. , so it's like a physical thing that's on the wall in our kitchen. And after we have dinner, we write down like three things that we're grateful for on a sticky note that looks like a leaf and we put it on the wall.

[00:09:19] Jeff: And a lot of times I use that as a chance to talk about. Like the things that i'm trying to get better at like, oh, i'm so grateful. I had a chance to practice this around, you know, this aspect of fatherhood and I want them to hear that I want them To be like if we talk about modern masculinity, I want them to see me as imperfect and I want them to love that but I also want them to see me trying and recognize it

[00:09:45] Hector: That's interesting. don't think I want them to see me as perfect, but I want them to be like, Oh shit, dad, like don't fuck with dad though. like,

[00:09:55] Jeff: I'm a leadership expert too. And I, write a lot about authentic leadership and authentic leadership is imperfect leadership. And it's like people actually will respect. and pause when you are serious, because your authenticity plays through and, it's not out of fear, right?

[00:10:13] Jeff: It's out of love. So

[00:10:15] Hector: you know, this show started when I was going through my divorce and it was really the, it was my therapy, if you will.

[00:10:22] Hector: I was like, you know, I don't know what to do. What are you going to do? Big podcast. Well, you know, I do know how to do that. So, , and I remember as the, you know, it was kind of going on and as it was happening, there were moments where I was just bawling next to Mike.

[00:10:36] Hector: Like I could not regulate my emotions. Like, no, I wasn't angry. I was just so sad. Right. and I think about what sort of effect. That's done, you know, like I don't think that hiding, like, I'm not a fan of hiding vulnerability or like I'm sort of, A person that when people meet me, they're like, wow, he's like, he's very forthcoming and sort of his, pitfalls and his shortcomings. And he's like, well, I'm like, you know, I'm five, six. I was like, the shortcomings are, full around here. But, , I've also realized that there's that, , they call it like the, he rabbited himself in the sense of like, And the Eminem movie eight mile in the final scene. I don't know if you've seen that movie, in the final scene, he comes out and he throws out all of his imperfections. He calls himself out, you know, all of the things that have gone wrong. You know, someone took his girlfriend, someone beat him up.

[00:11:24] Hector: So that way his, his opponent didn't have anything to say, it was one of the first mic drop moments. Right. and so I've sort of leaned that way, and then I've, also wrestled with where is the line, and what's healthy for the kids, because I think one of, and there is a, it was a big spoke of, reasons for the divorce.

[00:11:48] Hector: But one was my dumping my emotions or my dumping my challenges, you know, dumping all that stuff on my ex and expecting her to be able to do something with it, And so now I'm always kind of cautious of, you know, what am I dumping on my kids and sort of, what am I allowing? how am I being vulnerable with that?

[00:12:09] Hector: And so I'm curious, you know, if you have any reflections on, that sort of balance, if you will.

[00:12:15] Jeff: Well, let me attack it from two perspectives. Our kids know so much more than we can ever express with our words, right? They absorb body language, sentiment. Everything. And so you can decide you're going to tell them or not tell them that you're struggling with something. They may not know the specifics, but they are damn sure going to understand that there's something going on with daddy right now.

[00:12:42] Jeff: so I think that in knowing that there's. power in saying like the reason that we have triggers as dads, whether it's like how we explode emotionally or otherwise is because we absorb something from our parents on probably our dads. So to not talk about it or to have a brave front because we think they're not ready for it.

[00:13:09] Jeff: , is to assume they're not going to see it otherwise. And I think they are, , they're just going to have their own childhood interpretation of it. And, , I'd rather it come out with a little bit more intention from me. , so that's definitely how I view it, I think. , I also think that, , everything has to be framed in a way for them to understand it based on their age. Right. I'm not going to say like daddy is working on his emotional regulation due to his childhood trigger. That was related to the way his father presented himself. That's like, no.

[00:13:41] Jeff: I'm just going to say like, daddy's also trying to learn what to do with big emotions, right? Like I get them too. And this is so cool because like, this is going to help us both throughout our lives. So trying to frame it from that perspective.

[00:13:55] Hector: Yeah, I think the awareness is huge. one story that I think would be interesting. I want to, I've shared it on this podcast before. It's like fucking bingo cards that the listeners probably have, you know, this story, but, I remember one time something was going on with. my ex and I was not emotionally regulated.

[00:14:10] Hector: And so we were driving to my friend's house we were going to see their mom and, you know, I was going to have to whatever. And I was just breathing. I was just doing some hardcore, you know, breath work. And my son, goes, dad, are you doing breath work? And I go, yeah. And he goes, okay.

[00:14:25] Hector: And he just, he kept on going and looking out the window. And, it was normalized though, right? it became sort of normal, this, processing, I sent my buddy the other day, there's this funny, , King of the Hill skit, or not King of the Hill skit, it's a King of the Hill scene where the daughter, and once again, these nineties sort of cartoons, but, it's the programming that guys like you and I got.

[00:14:47] Hector: Growing up. And so the, dad, , Hank, he's like, you know, he's talking to his daughter and his daughter's like, I just don't know what to do with all these emotions. And he's like, just shove it into your stomach. Don't feel it. And she's like, but it hurts. And he's like, that's how you know, it's, working because, you won't be sad.

[00:15:05] Hector: you'll be in pain, but you won't be sad. And it was this funny, funny scene. But it was like that was the only playbook that guys had for what to do with their emotions and all of a sudden we're thrown into 2025 where energy and emotions are just naturally high, let alone, you know, introduce a kid into this sort of environment.

[00:15:30] Hector: And It's a lot to sort of hold, you know, so much so that couldn't hold my shit broke and I had to like rebuild it. And, that's sort of the journey that I've been on. But, all that to say that, like making these, tools normal for kids again is something that I think, , You know, dads like you and me are sort of pioneering and I'm glad that, you're really diving into how, to help dads and then not only with, like raw, raw stuff, but actually bringing some data and some research and some real, science to, that's kind of a buzzword these days, but like, I think it's really important to give dads that new playbook, because it's not there.

[00:16:07] Jeff: it's not there. And it's sort of sneaked up on us. Like we don't have role models. Right. And it's like, we know we want to do things differently. And then we're looking around and it's like, where are we learning this from? And then we're hard on ourselves. And then we, get in this vicious cycle.

[00:16:21] Jeff: There's one really cool data point that I like to talk about, which is like 91% Of fathers identified first as fathers, like it's their most important identity, right? And then when you ask those same dads, like if they think they're fathering well, only 39 percent say they are

[00:16:42] Hector: the hard part is though, oh, so I'm glad you said that, because I, have so many people, you know, I'm kind of a solo dad, not like a single dad, but I have a lot of the moms who see me, because I'm very involved, and I take the kids all these places, they're like, oh, you're such a good dad, and it's weird when they say that, I don't receive it fully.

[00:16:58] Hector: I don't believe them. I'm like, ah, like if only you saw the blow up or if only you saw the, whatever, like, yeah, but you know, we can only afford one basket of groceries instead of two baskets. whatever it is. Right. I think we have all these sort of measuring sticks that we have as guys, but I'm wondering if it, is what I think that you said , is that guys are actually not. They're not giving themselves the credit perhaps they're doing.

[00:17:21] Jeff: why do you think it is? I mean, I have the data, but I'll, ask you, why do you think that is?

[00:17:25] Hector: I can only draw from my own experience Which is like, you know self worth and like all these natural wounds and things that weren't processed, from childhood that are just sort of lingering on in our psyche when all of a sudden it becomes your primary source of identity, I think it's only natural to do that.

[00:17:45] Hector: Most of the traumas and triggers sort of get attached to that along the way. but that's just been my experience.

[00:17:51] Jeff: it's definitely a piece of it. And I think another piece is. No dads are talking to each other. So we have no points of comparison. Like I have two boys, right? So for the longest time, I was like, am I just a shitty dad? Because these kids fight with each other all the time. I know they love each other, but they fight with each other all the time.

[00:18:12] Jeff: And then finally, I just started talking to other dads that had boys or just other dads that have brothers because I have a younger sister and they're like, no, dude, like we've fought all the time. Like it's totally normal. And, that's an example of my confidence was being pulled down because I had no point of comparison because my friends had girls or a girl and boy.

[00:18:35] Jeff: And I mean, there's tons of comedians out there talking about, the difference between having a six year old girl and a six year old boy in terms of behavior. And so. We need to have more

[00:18:44] Jeff: conversations with each other.

[00:18:46] Hector: and my daughter. I have to constantly tell her like stop the sucker punching your brother I'm like you are going on the offensive. She's like I'm defending myself. I'm like I saw you you're not defending yourself you are abusing your brother and I've had those similar experiences where I thought that like we're unique or special in that sort of thing.

[00:19:06] Hector: Like I used to joke that I, my secondary role, my primary role is IHOP waitress. My secondary role is MMA referee because I'm, mostly like serving up dino nuggets and I'm also like breaking up fights. and yeah, it's not necessarily less exhausting in the moment per se, but I don't judge myself as much for the fact that it goes on, right?

[00:19:27] Hector: Because it's like, why would you beat yourself up for something that's, it's not indicative of, of you per se.

[00:19:33] Jeff: no, but it's also part of how kids learn to interact grow with each other and, when I bring the boys home from school, , I let them play by themselves. I hear some fighting, but I don't run over to stop it right away. And let's say like three quarters of the time, they figure it out on their own one quarter of the time.

[00:19:54] Jeff: I got to get over there. But my wife will go over at the first sound of conflict. And that's not helping anyone. That's not her from a stress perspective. And it's not helping the boys learn how to regulate and build relationship with one another. And so there's no perfection on this. there's middle ground.

[00:20:14] Jeff: But the point is that only happens if we talk to other folks and we learn about what other people are experiencing. And what I've found is, women have figured out how to have those conversations for many, many generations now, and men. They're figuring out they need them, but very few are figuring out how to have them.

[00:20:33] Jeff: , and that's a big piece of one of the things i'm focused on

[00:20:36] Hector: I'm glad you're putting some, like. Study, you know, doing some research this because I don't know like It would have been so easy for me to not be involved or given all the sort of chaos that's been going on to sort of, make other choices and I'm not sure what compelled me, but one of the things that I'm glad that I have the ability to sort of take some arrows at the front.

[00:21:01] Hector: In the sense of stumbling through it, not knowing, seeking answers, being willing to like be weird and be different, be the only dad at the playground or, there's so many times where I'm the only dad and it's all other moms and. , it's a new skill set, it's an entirely different skill set.

[00:21:21] Hector: And I don't think it's just like, Oh, men are protectors, women are nurturers. Cause I think there is a, way that men can be nurturers, but stumbling through that and figuring out how that, looks or how to, do that on sort of a day in day out sort of basis has been really. And so I'm curious what else you know, if a new dad, you know, I've got some buddies that are just having their, first kids or one or two year olds.

[00:21:45] Hector: And so it's like, you think that's hard now? Like it's a little, Challenging, but I think it actually gets more nuanced the older they get, right? the challenges, , and the solutions also become a little bit more, not complex, but, , kids are so unique, right? That , one size sort of doesn't really fit all.

[00:22:05] Hector: And so I'm curious if there's other skills that you think are helpful for dads, , that they may not have naturally, developed, growing up or may not be thinking about developing given their, new role as, a father.

[00:22:22] Jeff: there are many I think what i've heard the most from dads is they want to be present, but they also like we, as men in particular, and, but also as dads, like we want to look long term, like that's just tends to be something that's part of our DNA too. Right? Like I want to see and think about how I plan out for my child's like, , success through school.

[00:22:45] Jeff: I got to get them into college. want them to have this incredible life. But the problem is, is. We don't actually spend the time to create what I call like a fatherhood vision or a fatherhood philosophy. So I talk about like everyone that works in a company, 100 percent of our companies have a strategic plan, like 12 month goal or an 18 month goal, a three year vision, whatever that is.

[00:23:08] Jeff: Like no one has it around their fatherhood. , and the truth is like our kids have big development, especially when they're really young, big developmental stages every 12 to 18 months. , but then, you know, as, we're moving past toddler time into the next stage and the next stage, it's like. Well, what kind of dad do you want to be and looking at the forest through the trees so you don't want to be like reactive all the time.

[00:23:32] Jeff: And if you don't actually spend the time to think about what your vision is for the dad, you want to be, then it just, it always feels like you're. Drinking from a fire hose and so i'll give you an example of how i did it so we told my kids were like two or three i would actively tell them guys my primary job as your dad is to keep you safe like that is my job as your father so whenever there was conflict like you know they wanted to do something and i said no and i go guys remember what is my primary responsibility.

[00:24:04] Jeff: To keep me safe. That's right. Okay. So then we got past that age. So it wasn't, it was no longer about like, you know, eating the Q tip or, you know, putting something crazy up your nose. Then it was like, , I defined my primary responsibility to them was to, help them. Either manage their emotions or to learn I usually use the word like my job right now is to help you learn and so like that became the new focus for me for a couple of years in terms of how I defined it for them now is that nuance not at all but I didn't need to be nuanced they were like.

[00:24:42] Jeff: I'm talking four and five at that point. And that connects to a bigger kind of vision and philosophy that I created around, you know, I have a set of values that I want to instill in my kids and I know what those values are And I know how i'm going to teach them each week. And so those are the types of tools That , i've been talking to a lot of dads about that They're like they didn't know how to define them, but they knew that That's the kind of thing that was missing for them.

[00:25:09] Jeff: Like I want to be thinking bigger and I don't really know how to do it. And the truth is we do know how to do it. We do it at work. We just need to do it at home now.

[00:25:17] Hector: Yeah, I've heard those rules. well, and I've heard it continued on as they approach, being a teen, it's, it's more about guiding and then once they're an adult, like, Then you can be a friend. I've heard it framed in the sense of like, that guide, or, or I've heard it switched to, you know, someone who's more of a, console, right? And when they're teenagers, you need to have a little bit more guardrails and, and as adults, you know, that those, guardrails sort of loosen.

[00:25:42] Hector: But I think that that gives a dad's a really good framework to be like, What am I doing here? Because, , we don't hear it as much anymore. But I think, like, when our kids came around, like, the, kind of stereotypical meme was that, like, The moms didn't want to give the dad any of the responsibility, right?

[00:26:05] Hector: And I didn't experience any of that. but I know that it was like the meme was like a dad, you know, standing in the kitchen. Well, well, like he couldn't, he didn't know what to do, right? He just kind of like threw up his hands and it was like, well, fuck if I can't help, like, let me just withdraw and let me just.

[00:26:20] Hector: get out of here and go sit on the couch and watch TV, whereas if they can see themselves as initially keeping them safe and then sort of a teacher, , I think that gives them a little bit different , of an objective, right? As opposed to just like, what am I supposed to do here?

[00:26:35] Jeff: I would also say in that context that. you know, it's, it's funny because it's another thing that popped up was that, , , there was a study in 2018 or 2017, that three quarters of the men that they interviewed, , for this study said that they believe that there should be a quality in the home in terms of the caregiving, but only half of those men were successful at doing that and what was keeping them from like, Okay.

[00:27:00] Jeff: An equal share of the caregiving and all the other activities in the home. Well, it wasn't just one thing. So in some respects it was, yeah, the guy had no idea what to do. In other respects, it was the culture of the family, right? Like you could have your partner's culture. You know, everyone comes from different cultural backgrounds.

[00:27:19] Jeff: Their culture could be the, the mom does everything right. And even though. , they may want some more support, like that's just not built into how they were raised. And so, and if you don't have the conversations about it, it becomes tricky. And so the point is there are so many things that actually prevent the equality from happening in the household.

[00:27:40] Jeff: , and it's not just one thing and it's, almost never just. The husband or the wife or the one partner or the other, , I think it's something like 70 percent of couples come from different cultural backgrounds. And so if you imagine each of those cultural backgrounds comes with baggage around, like, what a dad's role was traditionally, especially since we're talking about how different dads want to engage now versus just our own parents generation.

[00:28:07] Jeff: yeah, there's a lot to it.

[00:28:09] Hector: think it also requires, I mean, naturally, I think it requires more of everybody, but perhaps guys aren't, aware that, , it requires more of them. I think it was so. easy for, you know, I come from a very traditional household, if you will. Mom, dad, dad went out and worked every day. Mom cleaned the house.

[00:28:31] Hector: it was very traditional in a sense, not in others. But the same way, it was very easy for my dad to come home and kick his feet up on the couch. And I remember Recently, my mom was like sweeping under his feet, like it was so prototypical of that sort of thing. And neither one of them thought anything weird or different of it.

[00:28:52] Hector: and I guess on the other side. A lot of dads today, they want to come home from work and be engaged with their kid. They want to be, , you know, present. is sort of the word that's, I think it's thrown around a little bit, but think that it requires a greater capacity for guys.

[00:29:08] Hector: And I don't know that they're properly prepared for that, right. In the sense of that. could be a lot of things, whether it's taking care of their health or, you know, emotionally processing or, you know, having guy time, like all these sorts of things, , that become important for someone to just not want to check out on the couch when they get home, which was so much of the norm of, dads, right?

[00:29:30] Hector: I think that was model that I think even got perpetuated in culture and society and TV and all that sort of stuff. So any thoughts on like breaking the, mold of the previous generation and like how guys can practically maybe go about something like that.

[00:29:47] Jeff: Well, I mean, I will say that the number one challenge that every dad I speak to talks about is this balance, right? Like we got work, we got family. I got my own personal wellness. I got whatever else I want. And then I have my relationship with my partner. And oh, by the way, like different from our parents generation, it's 77%.

[00:30:11] Jeff: Of, , women, , with kids, six or older are working outside the home too. So there's like so much more going on. Right. And so, there's no silver bullet to this, but what. Has been really helpful with all of the dads that I speak to is just this idea, like, yeah, I'm also struggling with how to balance these things and like how to get some time for myself.

[00:30:36] Jeff: So I can show up well for my kids,

[00:30:39] Hector: I've had dreams of creating like a self care salon for dudes and for dads, just where they can just like come in and have someone rub their shoulders or like, I don't know, bring them a beverage, like to do something for the dad.

[00:30:54] Hector: Because I feel like so much of our, life, at least, me, and I'm just speaking only from experience, is like, it's putting out and so much, right, giving so much because we want to be a great and present dad, but, it actually, it left me so depleted though, and it left me so deprived of what I needed, and it took me, You know, my marriage falling apart and having to sort of rebuild and all these sorts of things to find out actually what it is that does refuel, my tank, what it is that does actually, , keep me thriving.

[00:31:26] Hector: And so is there any data around, like, self care for guys or, you know, whether or not guys are, giving to themselves in any sort of way?

[00:31:36] Jeff: Not from the positive side. I mean, there's data about the percentage dads that go through depression, right? And, think it's still called postpartum for dads, but the, , depression right after children are born as well. , There's a great, , , author named Kevin Maguire, who's on a sub stack that does, , talks a lot about male fatherhood depression. , because our biology changes when our children are born, not just a woman's biology. , and that is something that really needs to be known by everyone. And that's why it's so insulting not to have paternity leave, because what happens is when you have a brand new baby.

[00:32:15] Jeff: Your testosterone drops and your oxytocin levels go up. And that is biologically intentional for you to bond deeply with your child. If you do not go on paternity leave, you miss that window for that to happen. and then there's neuro biological things. So there's stuff changing in your brain to like the parts of your brain that process, , like.

[00:32:41] Jeff: Social and emotional, , needs and issues that process empathy. They're actually changing. Like they've done all these, , MRIs, , with new dads. And so all of this stuff does have biological basis for men, just as it does for women. , and so we need to start recognizing that. I have this feeling like, 50 years into the future, this conversation will be so different.

[00:33:03] Jeff: it'll be like, I can't believe. we were leaving these dads out in the cold for like the first, you know, six months to two years of our kids lives. Like, look what all of the capacity they could have given to their children, if only we enabled it and understood it better.

[00:33:21] Hector: even recently I told my friend. I was like you fucking need paternity leave Fucking you need like, you know, I was I was half joking but when you were adding that science, I'm like, okay I'll re rethink that because I'm curious, why I feel such a deep connection to them.

[00:33:40] Hector: And I look at other dads and I'm like, you, you don't. And I got that time though, you know, I worked from home and ex wife, unfortunately, , was in the hospital Like right afterwards, and so like We got the time to spend the you know together And so I think it's interesting that you say that those connections they start, At birth, right? I think a lot of guys have the mentality, I'll sort of build that connection when they get older. and I think what you're saying is that you're just, you're kind of missing the biological boat, if you will.

[00:34:15] Jeff: Yeah. I mean, I don't ever want to say that it's not possible to do that. You a hundred percent can. But I mean, the biology stuff is real 10 to 15 percent of dads actually gain a shit ton of weight to as if they are carrying a baby. That's an actual, like scientific, it has a name. I can't remember the name off the top of my head, but, and I had a wicked close friend who he had three kids and I swear to God, I thought he was pregnant with every single one of them.

[00:34:42] Jeff: And it was hilarious and it's real. And it's like. We are designed to be a part of this family, not just go out and make some cash. And the more we embrace it, I think we're, , apt to discover some really powerful new ways that men can really, , Be wonderful caretakers, , in the context of their kids.

[00:35:07] Hector: Has there been anything that's surprised you or perhaps maybe what's been the most surprising from sort of either the research that you've done or even the dads that you've

[00:35:20] Jeff: Oh, most surprising. , It's an interesting question. I, so much of it has been so interesting. I think some of the different things that have been really powerful are, , One, how few dads have role models, and if you just think about how we like shape our view of the careers we want to have or the heroes that we have, and to imagine, like, so many of us as dads don't have that, like, we don't know who we're looking.

[00:35:52] Jeff: At to like model this new type of behavior that we want to have for the little human beings that we love more than anything

[00:36:01] Hector: because on the contrary, , for so long there was these, Homer Simpsons, the Hank from King of the Hill, the, Tim the Toolman Taylor, Al Bundy, you know, everybody loves Raymond.

[00:36:13] Hector: I can literally go on and on and on about the buffoon like dads that, I mean, they were like nice.

[00:36:21] Jeff: No, those, caricatures are a big issue and, we need new ones. Right. And it's also not just like, , the dad that. Is engaged because he is the coach of the soccer team or the baseball team. No, there's like so many other types of, , like caricatures that we should have dads.

[00:36:40] Jeff: And, you know, they should be the dad that, works from home and picks the kids up from school or the dad that works out, uh,, you can still go out and travel, but comes back and always spends three day weekends with their kid. I mean, there's so many different ways that we could create new quote unquote stereotypes that are going to be so much more useful for us because what so many of us as dads are struggling with is understanding like, What is baseline? Like, what's the norm? Like, am I doing this right? Like, is it enough? Is it too much? Is it like, am I supposed to be exploding because I have no one else to ask about

[00:37:17] Hector: is there an answer to that? Cause I think so much of what I've gotten from this show is like, , you know, it can be like whatever the fuck you want. And I think we're moving a little out of that. You know, I started it in 2023. So maybe that's just kind of how the culture was. And I think you know, that it sort of is changing, but in the same sense of, is there.

[00:37:38] Hector: Some baselines, is there some standards that as dads, we should be holding? and then, you know, above those, there's, different modes and modality, there's different, you know, you can be a mage, you can be a sorcerer, you can be a warrior, you can be, you know, there's all these different ways that you can win the game or be, you know, valuable.

[00:37:58] Hector: . And that's kind of what you're saying, but is there a baseline or a minimum that you've seen that guys should be holding?

[00:38:05] Jeff: No, I think, , well, I mean, let me answer it a different way. I would say, , I ask every dad that I interview, what does it mean to be a great dad and they all give me their own version of that answer. And so based on that answer is usually where they're going to try to direct their efforts. , and that's a really powerful thing.

[00:38:24] Jeff: And, people, , are all over the place with what it means to be a great dad. there's themes for sure. And being present is a huge theme. , and, , so is like. Understanding how to provide the types of internal tools for their children to be resilient to , have a full, range of emotions and be able to thrive no matter if they're sad emotions or happy emotions or angry emotions, those sorts of things.

[00:38:57] Jeff: , so I, think. that's one angle. And then the other angle is that study that I told you about where it was like three quarters of dads said they wanted to share 50 50 in managing the family and the home, but only half of them were able to do that successfully. So I think there's. a big space there where men are saying, I think this is what I want.

[00:39:18] Jeff: I also know that my partner really wants this because they're just as committed to their career as I am. And so if I can succeed at being really like half of the lion share work at home, then I'm also helping my partner succeed, not just at home, but at work. , and so there's a lot, there's a lot there.

[00:39:38] Hector: it's definitely an exciting time to be alive, that's for sure. And also, if I allow myself to go there, I get really nervous about the world that my kids are going to be living in. part of it is my control freakness and I'm just, I have zero control of it.

[00:39:57] Hector: And so that just bothers me. and also if I start to think about it it's sort of empowering because at least we, as dads, we can affect it. Like we've got a chance to make an impact, not only on our, kids, but on, on also The collective future as a whole. And so, where does your brain or heart go? Or like, what do you tell guys who get sort of caught up in the left, right, up, down, blue, red, you know, climate aliens. Like it could be so easy for guys to sort of. think there's a proverbial end to end of the world, you know, happening every single day.

[00:40:36] Hector: don't know, I just think we're in a unique position, not only as, as humans, but like, specifically as fathers during this time. How do you look at, You know, our relationship to that,

[00:40:45] Jeff: I bring it back to the fatherhood philosophy, right? Like, know what values you want to instill in your kids. Know like the type of human you want them to develop into in the long term, and work backwards from there. , because like your locust of control is not all the craziness that's going on outside, but.

[00:41:07] Jeff: your locus of control does include your family. So like, , control for that, , as best you can from the standpoint of, , values and social and emotional learning and education and philosophy and that sort of thing.

[00:41:20] Hector: this has been a really fun conversation, Jeff. ,

[00:41:24] Jeff: Thank you.

[00:41:24] Hector: you have a new program that's, launching. I'm sure by the time this gets out, you'll be the thick of that. But if people want to get, , connected with you or just go deeper in your world, where's the best place for people to follow up?

[00:41:36] Jeff: , you can check out my substack ambitious dads, on substack. , the other spot is to find me on LinkedIn. So just Jeff Hittner, I'm on LinkedIn. I do a lot of my work around fatherhood there. , and yeah, I've got a founding father's program going and we'll have another one and I'll be running some workshops.

[00:41:55] Jeff: So be sure to connect with me either over substack or over my LinkedIn and, and you'll hear all about it.

[00:42:01] Hector: Amazing. , we'll link all that up as always in the show notes for you fellas. And last question for you, Jeff, in your opinion, what is the definition of

[00:42:11] Jeff: You know, I really wanted to say the first thing that came out is one word. It's just vulnerability, , vulnerability and , courage to, grow and explore, , and be uncomfortable. , and I think that goes hand in hand with vulnerability. , modern masculinity, there's a vacuum out there, so, , if you don't know what masculinity means to you, you can get sucked in to a vacuum that's focused on a lot of fear, , and a lot of blaming.

[00:42:38] Jeff: For like where we, are, because we don't know exactly where we are just now, or you can have the courage to explore and be vulnerable and really sort of see for yourself, , what it means to you to be a different kind of person, , for you and the people that you care most around you. So I think that's the way I would talk about it.