The Modern Man’s Man with Lawrence Dunning

[00:00:00] Hector: Lawrence, welcome and thank you for spending some time with us on the Modern Masculinity Podcast. How are you?

[00:00:07] Lawrence Dunning: Oh my pleasure.

[00:00:09] Hector: we do this often in the podcasting world, but we had to, just hit the record button and stop the flow of the pre-conversation. 'cause it was, so much gold and I wanted to clue our, listeners into it because, ' we were talking about some good stuff, but, If you want to take us there, you can, but I'd love for you to take me and the listeners into your world.

[00:00:25] Hector: were talking about the fact that you just moved, you've got a kind of, not quite a newborn, not quite a bay, you know, right in between toddler phase. So like, new parent, you know, you've obviously got a podcast that is, thriving and, businesses and such.

[00:00:38] Hector: take us into your world and, what are you challenged with or, struggling with as a man right now?

[00:00:43] Lawrence Dunning: Well, Hector, I think it's a problem of abundance, which I'm blessed for, but every day I wish I had 30 hours. You know, 24 doesn't seem enough. And um, that's something before I became a parent, I was always busy I was never bored or anything. But I have such a new appreciate for time now because when I look back on my life, I. When I was in my late thirties, you know, 37, 38, 39, the the years kind of bleed into each other, and I didn't really have much appreciation for time being the most important resource we have. And then as soon as you become my parents, you realize that, one month goes to the next month and, my son is developing and you realize I'll never get that month back with him. I guess my biggest struggle right now is I'm one of those people that I've always been very goal driven. And back when I was in my mid thirties and I was a professional fighter, I remember I got, so much anxiety. before the fight, a month before a fight, I used to think in my head, I know I'm gonna get through this next month, but it's gonna be so hard, you know, I've gotta be training two, three times a day, six days a week.

[00:01:39] Lawrence Dunning: I've gotta make sure my rest is on point. I don't get injured. I've gotta have my diet perfect, so I've gotta drop weight. And I used to think in my head, I wish I could just kind of click my fingers and just wake up the fight's over and I can just relax. You know, the pressure's off me. I don't know if you've seen that movie, click with Adam Sandler, but it's such a great movie 'cause it's kind of about that same concept about you wish you could just kind of click through these things that you don't really wanna do in life to get to the, things that we all like to do in life.

[00:02:02] Lawrence Dunning: You know, vacations, good times with friends, good times with family. And now as a parent, I realize that's my biggest struggle is I want to get to these certain places, but I know that when all is said and done, even the best case scenario, if I look back at my younger self and I said, would you be happy with achieving X, Y, and z?

[00:02:20] Lawrence Dunning: I would be ecstatic if I achieved it. Once you've achieved it, there's something a little bit sad about fulfilled potential. So the best case scenario for a young man, Is to have high goals and dreams and achieve them. But even when you do, there's something a little bit sad because there's something so wonderful about the, way a young man's life can go in almost infinite directions.

[00:02:41] Lawrence Dunning: And even the most successful among us, you kind of get drawn in certain paths where youhave less opportunities. You know, like right now. I'm a happily married man. I've just rehabbed the house in rural Indiana. I'm now south of Chicago. I don't have infinite past where my life's gonna go, and maybe I'll take a sabbatical in Europe or maybe I'll do some cool things, but it's gonna be a lot less than when I was years old, just graduated college in London.

[00:03:05] Lawrence Dunning: Have no idea where the path of life's gonna take me. my challenge today is, trying to appreciate every single day, even though I'm not where I want to be in many areas of my life. Is, enjoy the process. Because even the best case scenario, if you get your goals and you get to where you want to be, you are one day closer to, one less day on this earth.

[00:03:23] Lawrence Dunning: And I just wanna enjoy every single day, even the days that are struggling, even the days that I'm, exhausted and coming up against failures. I want to enjoy the process. 'cause ultimately, that's my mission in life is to try and get every last mortal of this experience.

[00:03:36] Hector: Yeah, I don't always think that it's important for people to talk about their. Accolades or their experience. 'cause I feel it's less relevant to things that people are going through today. And so that's why we start off with that question. However, you're someone who, perhaps has lived a variety of lives, in your time.

[00:03:54] Hector: we were talking about, I believe before we hit the recording, that you know, now you've got your own son there's a new. I call it awareness, urgency. There's a new, something that's kind of clicked in your head. when you look back on your experiences, are there a set of, let's call it foundational experiences or, important experiences, events, moments that kind of shifted that path that you ended up taking, that you look back on and as part of, you know, key parts of your journey.

[00:04:22] Hector: I.

[00:04:22] Lawrence Dunning: I've said this so many times and I always say it 'cause I really believe it, I. Life has to be lived looking forward that can only be understood. Looking back and looking back, I had a few, big career shifts and pivotal changes in my life, and one of them was when I was 35. I just had my last professional fight. I had blown through a whole bunch of savings and I changed careers and I started right from the bottom in real estate and it was so depressing and humbling. At the time I was 35 years old. had a background in trading where I was making a lot of money.

[00:04:53] Lawrence Dunning: I worked for myself. And I had to essentially start at the bottom of a new business and build myself up from nothing. And I had that mindset of an entrepreneur where I said, I'm not gonna go off the money. I'm gonna go after, knowledge because I know the money will come. And the first year I worked like a dog and I barely made anything. And I remember at the time being being a little bit depressed. I knew it was part of the journey, but it was still a bit depressing. And now looking back, that was so good for my soul. that idea of being humbled again and kind of rebuilding yourself. now I'm going through something similar in the sense that, Partnered with somebody in real estate and he was a developer and we did very well for a few years. And then, I don't know exactly what happened. A lot of lies came out later, but we ended up in a, contentious lawsuit and he stole a bunch of money from me. Some of my friends were investors and it became this absolute nightmare. And so what I was navigating all of that, I was trying to think, how can I see a positive in this? the one positive is, every time we encounter Miss Fortunes, these can be wonderful lessons. I can't wait to talk to my son about this when he is older, because I just imagine if I had this perfect life where, you know, maybe I was born with a trust fund and I never had to strive and struggle for anything, how am I gonna teach any wisdom or lessons, to my son? So it's a beautiful, it's just kind of that idea of. we all have problems in life. It doesn't matter if we're rich, poor, which country we live in. Everyone has problems. people you look up to and admire, a lot of people admire Elon Musk. That guy has more problems than anyone.

[00:06:16] Lawrence Dunning: So I think it's just getting, your mindset around the idea that We're all gonna have struggles, but positive and a struggle, especially for me now as a new dad is trying to learn the wisdom from it, the lessons, and then pass it on to my son. So the lessons with, this recent thing that I'm going through is the most important decisions we make in life is who we partner with.

[00:06:37] Lawrence Dunning: So if you're a man who you wanna have a family with, that's gonna be the most important decision. 'cause even if it's a brief fling and you're barely even dating, but you have a child together, you're gonna be tied to that person for life, you know, especially the first, you know, 18, 19 years. that's one lesson, but the other lesson is just partnerships in business, I've had some bitter, contentious, friendships that have gone, that have gone the wrong way. it's such a wonderful lesson. I feel like I've got so much wisdom from partnerships, and I'm actually in a new partnership with the developer who's the opposite of this other developer.

[00:07:07] Lawrence Dunning: That's the end of Screw Me Over, and I'm doing it the right way now, but I wouldn't have known what the right way was until I went through that. So I just think that that idea of if anyone listening to this is in a really bad, bad place in their life, number one, better times are ahead. And number two promise you if you keep that mindset of what can I learn from this, bad situation, there's some wisdom there.

[00:07:29] Hector: You might not see it today, but you'll eventually see it. So just keep going. I think the best advice for anyone going through struggle is keep going, Yeah, you don't always see it. I always. Liken it to like building a house. it doesn't look pretty until like the last moment, for 80, 85, 90% of it, it looks incomplete. it's inhabitable, you know, you always watch those home and garden, those renovation shows, and it's a, a wreck, the whole thing.

[00:07:52] Hector: And then in the last 30 seconds they put the paint on and they, whatever, and, and then it's ready. And I think that, A lot of times, guys, or I know, I, started this show in the midst of a, transformation and, We just have to have faith period that, we're in the middle of something and I, go back to that.

[00:08:09] Hector: I think Shyla Buff said it, or you know, it was on some, some TikTok or whatever or Instagram reel and he said that I don't know if he came up with it, but he was the one that said it here. It was that in the end, everything's gonna be okay. And if it's not okay, it's not the end. for me, I go back to that a lot and, knowing that, we're in the middle of something.

[00:08:26] Hector: Another thing you touched on was this idea of passing on. Like wisdom generationally. And I think that, for me at least intuitively, was something that I was always excited about. 'cause I, love learning so that idea of being able to pass that on to some, else, I thought it was gonna be a lot, easier perhaps and a lot more, enjoyable at all moments.

[00:08:46] Lawrence Dunning: But it has proved to be, it's rightful challenge, but. I hope that enough guys are taking that seriously. 'cause I don't know that my dad really took that opportunity seriously. I learned a lot from my coaches. some teachers that were guys mostly coaches though, where you try and learn what it means to be a man and how to handle certain situations and such, But I didn't get a lot that from my dad, That's so interesting you said that. So I always loved my dad growing up. I was a daddy's boy. He was my hero in many ways. He still is, even though we've definitely, there's a bit of distance between us right now. But my dad had a really, really tough childhood.

[00:09:25] Lawrence Dunning: His grandfather was a Holocaust victim in Germany. His father escaped just before the Second World War came to England, 17 years old. German last name, barely spoke English, haven't finished high school, and he just had to survive. And he ended up surviving, having a family, having four kids. They were very, very poor. And he had the old school German mentality where, I'm gonna be at the table, I'm gonna be having steak, and my wife and my four boys, they're gonna be having milk and bread. You know, like that was, that just the way it was done back in the day. And so my dad came from that and he gave my brother and I, a very, very good childhood in comparison to his. But as I got older, there were so many things where I'm like, man, I wish my dad would've told me this or what. I wish my dad would've told me that. But that thing about, every generation you want to try and do better. And I've heard a lot of people talk about that, that idea. I think it's such a wonderful thing where, I'm definitely, I'm so grateful to my parents for life.

[00:10:16] Lawrence Dunning: I'm so grateful for the upbringing that I had. they did their best with what they had. And I think so many times it's so easy for someone to criticize, especially if you don't have kids, someone to criticize your parents without remembering. Most parents when they have kids, they're kids themselves.

[00:10:30] Lawrence Dunning: You know, I was 41 when I had my son, and my dad was 28 when he had my older brother. I mean, 28. When I think back to myself at 28, wasn't ready to be a father. You know, I'm still a big kid myself, even in many ways. When I was 40, I remember coming home from the hospital. With my son thinking I haven't got the faintest idea how to keep a baby alive.

[00:10:47] Lawrence Dunning: I was reading books. I was, luckily my wife was a

[00:10:49] Lawrence Dunning: little

[00:10:50] Hector: no fucking manual.

[00:10:51] Lawrence Dunning: Exactly, and, and you just feel, you feel so inadequate when the hospital is like, okay, good luck, you know, you're gonna bring this kid home.

[00:10:59] Hector: You know, I got nervous though when the only requirement was like, as long as you've got a car seat, you can take 'em home. And I'm like, that's it. no tests, no exam, no written, no, no nothing. Just, just a car seat and we're good to go. You know, there's more to drive a car than to raise a person

[00:11:16] Lawrence Dunning: It is pretty wild. I actually,

[00:11:18] Lawrence Dunning: Hector, I think that's a big problem with a lot of these societies and I know Thomas SOLs talked about this, where, it's like, on the one hand, of course, you know, if you're a single mother, you wanna have assistance to raise your kids. But when you make it a financial incentive to have more children, to get more benefits, and then the parent, the fathers don't have to be around, that's causing a huge, I think a huge problem with the youth of today is this's too many kids to grow up without fathers.

[00:11:42] Lawrence Dunning: And I think raising kids is so difficult in a two person household. And without a father, especially for boys, I just think they need that father figure. And I love what you said about coaches, because I was recently doing some, psychoanalysis on myself and I was wondering why I was so attracted to martial arts when I was young. I think a lot of it was because even though love my dad. Looking back at my life, my dad loves doing his own thing, so right now my parents have a house in the south of France. My mom's a from France, and my mom's there right now for the summer. My dad is spending two months hiking across the Alps by himself.

[00:12:14] Lawrence Dunning: He's 74, like that's what he loves to do. He loves to be out in nature, getting a backpack in a tent and just going off and doing his own thing. And so growing up, he would be like that. He would be, he would go for a week, he would go hiking or he'd do his own thing. And then when he was home, he was a wonderful father. But I think that I was always looking for a bit more, and I think something that I really appealed to me about martial arts was The relationship between a student and a coach, that there's a lot of crossover kind of father figures. And I've had some incredible, incredible coaches over the years they played that father figure role.

[00:12:43] Lawrence Dunning: so I think that was one thing that I was also looking for was a bit more, mentorship and guidance without even realizing it.

[00:12:49] Hector: Yeah, I'm curious. You have a, unique background in the sense that was such a big part of your life I'd love To frame the conversation in the sense that I've said on this show that I feel, and I'm a little bit younger than you, I'm, 31 now, so I'm, about a decade behind and I, feel like in that decade, the way that I liken it is that boys got declawed, stay inside, don't go outside, don't get dirty, let's play baseball, So you don't go out in the streets and fight. like, okay, well let's do karate, but, boxing is a little too much, so there was this, don't roughhouse because if you start roughhousing, you're gonna turn into some hooligan. Who's gonna, spend their life in J Like, it was a very real thing that like if you got into a fight, you were going to ruin your life.

[00:13:33] Hector: And anything that was associated with violence and fighting and, and that sort of thing had this kind of negative connotation. so I see a lot of guys my age come out with this, to not only defend themselves, Both physically, but then also emotionally and boundaries and, confrontation.

[00:13:49] Hector: You know, they just don't know how to effectively handle them. And so I'm curious because you were on the other side of that, you're like a professional fighter. You spent your time, your world in martial arts, and so now you know, you're coming out and, seeing this world that I'm looking at my wife right now and my son, and He's being a real sissy this week and I'm like, what the fuck is going on here?

[00:14:08] Hector: Like what is we, I had a puppy come over and he is just crying 'cause the puppy jumped and I'm like, whoa, what is happening here? There's something in the water or something on YouTube kids, I don't know. But anyways, that's the frame for the conversation. So I'd love to hear your outlook on kind of how you look at some of those things.

[00:14:25] Lawrence Dunning: my background actually, my first degree was history and I remember when I graduated in England at the time, I always wanted to work in finance. I was really trading stocks on the side. I would, work as a teenager, I'd make money. My dad would Teach me how to invest in stocks and basically teach me the lesson that if you invest and you let something grow, you're gonna make more by being a bit patient.

[00:14:44] Lawrence Dunning: So rather than spending your money today, he kind of had all these, wonderful lessons that he gave me. when times are good. There's that quote about, you know, hard times make strong men, strong make good times, good times, make weak men. Weak men make bad times that, cycle.

[00:14:58] Lawrence Dunning: And I think we're definitely in that. when I look back at my life, I had such a, I guess what I consider a good upbringing, but it was very much like my dad said, you know, you've gotta work. Because he wanted me to understand the relationship between effort and reward. and also things like, We had no TV in the house. There was no technology there, no internet, no cell phones. So kids had a real upbringing where you just, you know, with my buddies, skateboarding, just doing stuff outside, falling over, my parents wouldn't even have a curfew and I'd

[00:15:23] Lawrence Dunning: you go out and play at the neighborhood kids. And now it's like I want to be that same parent, but the world in a sense has changed. Like when I was living in Chicago, I wouldn't feel comfy with my kids. Just, you know, if I had two, kids that were know 10 and 12 or something, I wouldn't be comfy with them just hanging out on the streets till it got dark.

[00:15:39] Lawrence Dunning: so in a sense, the world has changed, I guess. But I think the old generation. have to let kids figure things out, kind of the law of the jungle as a theorist, before I was a parent, someone had asked me, I'd have said, Oh yeah, just let kids do what they do and they'll figure it out.

[00:15:54] Lawrence Dunning: And then as soon as you're a parent, I've definitely changed in that sense, where I'm very aware of head trauma from, all these studies coming out with combat sports and everything. So like my son will be playing and I'll just see like, concrete everywhere and I don't really want him to hit his head on the concrete some.

[00:16:07] Lawrence Dunning: trying to thread that needle, but I think most people go way to the other way where they're trying to protect everything from their kids and it's doing them a massive disservice. You have to, you have to let them when they're toddlers, fall and get bloody lips and then as they get older, you have to keep letting them get in situations where they have to figure things out because just like you said, it seems like we're raising a generation of people that just can't. I mean, it's a crazy world, right? In Canada, I think that you can get fine now for saying they're calling people by the wrong pronoun or whatever it is. I don't know the exact technicalities, but we are getting to a stage where if you say the wrong thing now, it's considered a, criminal offense. So you're trying to be so careful about how people's feelings are never gonna be hurt. That's not protecting them for the, world. The world is, the world from the west has become so, I mean, I don't know if soft's the right word, but, we're not doing a service to our children to try to worry about their feelings all the time, because when you go out in the real world, the world doesn't really care about your feelings.

[00:17:05] Lawrence Dunning: So I think there's a fine balance. that's another thing I'm struggling with is, to. Of course, you know, you want to protect your children. the idea of that movie, the Sound of Freedom, I've heard about it. I can't even watch it because I know it'll depressed me so much.

[00:17:16] Lawrence Dunning: It's so sad what's happening. There's so much. Predatory behavior on children. So you have to obviously be careful about that, but at the same time, you have to let kids be kids. And I think in a world where life has become so easy, the biggest gift, that's what I love about combat sports. I just think it's such a safe and healthy way.

[00:17:33] Lawrence Dunning: For kids to deal with things like fear and, hierarchy and all these things they're gonna need in the real world. So I think the, one of the impetus is actually for me moving on the street that I'm at, is I have two friends on the same street. One is an old friend, a doctor friend of mine who used to all my medicals when I was fighting.

[00:17:50] Lawrence Dunning: He's just a wonderful guy. The other guy is a friend of his who I didn't know very well before I moved, but he owns a Jiujitsu school down the road. He has two boys that are both jiujitsu champions and I'm thinking, what a wonderful environment. If I move here, my son is gonna be around his boys, he's gonna be around his, the gym, he's gonna be around, he's gonna see from a very young age, he's gonna be exposed to martial arts.

[00:18:10] Lawrence Dunning: And I don't want him to be a professional fighter unless he wants to, but I want him to be exposed to that I feel like the lessons that he'll get through martial arts, Well, it'll be like a superpower for the rest of his life. And I think if anything successful that I've accomplished can be, I think a large part of it will be because I got into martial arts when I was young and it got me to overcome my fears and it got me to be my best self.

[00:18:31] Lawrence Dunning: And Joe Rogan talks about that, talks about martial arts as a vehicle of personal development, and I couldn't agree more. it's so, so true.

[00:18:38] Hector: In regards to my, son, my wife and I are like, okay, we gotta get him signed up for Juujitsu. Yeah, I stopped training since I had kids, but it's, time and I need to get him back in the gym.

[00:18:46] Lawrence Dunning: but I mean, how old is he, Hector?

[00:18:48] Hector: five next week.

[00:18:49] Lawrence Dunning: Okay, so it's the perfect age. So, tricky because you don't wanna push it on him and then by the time he's nine, he hates it. Right. But at the same time, you know, as a parent, the benefits that he'll get from it. So, I don't have this answer.

[00:19:01] Lawrence Dunning: It's something I've been thinking about. it's how much do you want to encourage him without pushing it on him because want him to love it. But it also at the same time, you know, a five-year-old kid or an eight-year-old kid, they don't know the benefits of doing certain things. So when I look back at my youth, I remember my, my dad would get me in swimming lessons and he said every single time, I would be, kicking and screaming.

[00:19:20] Lawrence Dunning: I don't want to go, I don't wanna go. And then he said, on the drive home, I'd be so happy, I'd be, I'd be talking to him. And just, just so obviously he knew as a parent that I didn't know better. When I'm saying I don't want to go, he's like, no, no, we're going. And then I was happy. So it's like that, that weird balance as a parent, and that's not an easy thing.

[00:19:36] Hector: Well, that's a good point because one thing that we've tried to do is not, and if someone were to listen to the whole. Archive of our show, they'd be like, damn, Hector's really don't like his parents. And that's not the point of these conversations. It's simply to, create some context or really some contrast.

[00:19:50] Hector: And one thing that they, did, and, and to your point, they, were doing what they, thought was, best was they put me in all the sports and signed me up for all the activities. I was in something structured from, morning to night. And it was great because I was busy and, achieving and, I was in a people pleasing kind of mode where, I was just like, okay, this is whatI need to do to get love.

[00:20:10] Hector: Okay, I can climb this ladder, I can check these boxes, and so we've tried not to, Push our kid, like, you know, everyone was saying, when are you gonna sign 'em up for baseball? When am I gonna sign up? 'cause that was what I did growing up. I played, all the traditional sports, not knowing I was gonna be five, six, and, have no chance at any professional career in any of those.

[00:20:27] Hector: but it was because that's what my dad wanted to do. My dad wanted me to excel in baseball and my dad wanted me to excel in, in basketball and football, because it would make them look, and feel like they were a good parent. You know? And that's, what everybody was trying to do.

[00:20:41] Hector: And so we've kind of shied away from that. But what I think you've illuminated is that there is also some need to. Push them into things that are just inherently good for them. I know my, son is not, for baseball. We, tried one thing of soccer and we're like, we're not doing that again.

[00:20:56] Hector: And so he's an artist. We know he's an artist and a builder and and an engineer. And so we try and kind of give him all the opportunities to be creative in that regard. But I also know that we gotta toughen you up a little bit. Dude. So we're gonna, I think there are necessary skills and then there are the skills and the things that we can kind of push people towards.

[00:21:14] Hector: 'cause that's perhaps their talent. And my daughter, she's a singer and, very much a performer. that's where she's exuded.

[00:21:20] Lawrence Dunning: Well, Hector, so your son. cause my son has those same traits where my dad and my brother they're both engineers, professional engineers, and also, kind of academic engineers too. And I didn't have those genes and I can, barely change the light bulb and it's embarrassing. I'm always so jealous that I didn't get those genes.

[00:21:35] Lawrence Dunning: But my son definitely, he's, two and a half and he's already fascinated by building things and seeing how things move. And, fascinated by water and pouring different things. And so I know he already has that mindset. and your comment about, you know, you'd never be a professional.

[00:21:47] Lawrence Dunning: he doesn't have to be necessarily excellent at anything, in terms of athletics. But I think the idea what I'm, I'm trying to get to the lesson with martial arts that I got is, There's something about if you're in a room full of guys, and one is a amazing soccer player, the other one's a great baseball player, one of them. a championship boxer, all the other guys knows that if it comes down to it, that the boxer is the alpha of the room because in a physical confrontation, he could, he could defeat everybody. And I remember when I was teaching English in Russia when I was a student and I went, I walked into this boxing gym and it was at the time, I'd done about. I don't know, probably eight to 10 years of, martial arts included some kickboxing, but it wasn't super hardcore. And this was like a hardcore boxing gym, some of the best boxers in Moscow at the time. And I did a few rounds, I remember with the Russian National Champion. And I didn't get knocked down, but I got, the shit kicked outta me. And I remember after I went to a party I walk in, I had kind of a swollen nose and cut kind of marks under my eyes and there was all these Russian guys there, and they were talking to me like, oh, what happened to you? And I was, I was explaining, oh, I went to this gym. Oh, what's it called? And as soon as they even heard the name and they realized that I had just walked into this gym and spa with this Russian national champion, they were just like, the whole, dynamic of the rub shifted.

[00:22:59] Lawrence Dunning: And suddenly I was, I was always a very introverted, shy kid growing up, and suddenly they were like, ask me a million questions. I remember there was a girl there that I kind of liked and she was like, why are these guys talking to this English guy? And then she came over and I ended up hooking up with the girl.

[00:23:11] Lawrence Dunning: many years later I realized, the gift that you are giving your children by getting them a boy, especially by having him. Have some understanding of combat is he gets the respect of his peers and the respect of your peers opens up almost infinite doors.

[00:23:26] Lawrence Dunning: So, for instance, my first trading job, I remember at my interview, had, I had two days of interviews. I probably had 15 interviews over two days. And right at the end, in order to get the job, I had to, to interview with the c e O of the trading company. And the first thing he saw on the resume, he started talking about martial arts.

[00:23:40] Lawrence Dunning: His wife started Ki Cardio Kickboxing. He was fascinated by it. And we spoke about martial arts for 20 minutes, and then he gave me the job. And it's like, man, don't know if I would've got that job if I hadn't done that, but it, it is just another example of it opened so many doors because he obviously respected me because I had the commitment to train several times a week for a decade. And so I think that's what I want to give my son is it doesn't matter if he never competes. He doesn't have to win the golden gloves. He doesn't have to be a jiujitsu champion, but just by him putting the time in, he'll get so many lessons from himself, like overcoming fear and just understanding, you know, if he gets jumped by a kid at school, he knows like weight distribution, he knows balance, he knows those kind of things that defend himself, but he'll get the respect of his peers and that will open up infinite doors.

[00:24:23] Lawrence Dunning: And so that's, the lessons that I really think martial arts is so good. So when you said. oh, you know, maybe you wouldn't be a professional baseball player. I'm sure the lessons you got from that, from sports to discipline. Just even just the understanding that life isn't fair.

[00:24:36] Lawrence Dunning: you can train all the time and you can have one of your teammates who trains half as much as you be as better genetics and he's better than you. it's a tough lesson, but I think that's a useful lesson in life, you know, like, To understand life isn't fair.

[00:24:48] Lawrence Dunning: You have to work with what you've got. But also you do get some sense of there is some correlation between effort and results. And I think that's really important too. So I think we don't have to think about professional aspirations. We can still get so much from, I just think combat sports for boys especially, it's so, so beneficial.

[00:25:05] Hector: Yes, right. There was the leadership and the discipline and the teamwork and the whole thing. and also there is something to being able to defend yourself that I still came out of all of that with An inability to defend myself. I remember going through college even and getting into my first fight and really being like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing here.

[00:25:22] Hector: you think you're tough 'cause you can lift weights and you're strong and whatever. But in a, actual real life, street fight like that stuff does not. Matter. and so I think there's something to the actual being able to defend yourself and if young men especially, and even, thirties and forties, if, if those guys had a real confidence in the ability to defend themselves physically.

[00:25:43] Hector: I think and I'm sure you know, and I've kind of sensed this after I trained in theminimal amounts that I have. I mean, you walk around and you carry yourself differently

[00:25:50] Hector: Because you know,

[00:25:51] Lawrence Dunning: also Hector, I think there's less need to prove yourself with like a stupid drunken fight or things like that. Like I remember so many times when I was young and single going out with friends and they would always get in these situations and I was always the guy apologizing on their behalf. And I would tell random people, I'm like, listen, if he wasn't my friend, I wanna kick his ass too, but I just want to go out, you know, especially when I was, training six days a week, you know, when I was competing hard and training twice a day. If I went out on a Saturday night, the last thing I wanna do, I've been in the gym spark every day.

[00:26:20] Lawrence Dunning: The last thing I wanna do is get in another fight when I'm out. I

[00:26:22] Lawrence Dunning: just wanna have fun with my friends. So I think it blunts the ego. every time you go in the training room, you know you're not the worst. You know, you're not the best, you know, your peck order. You don't have that need to prove yourself.

[00:26:32] Lawrence Dunning: So I think it makes you, I just think it makes you a nicer person too. I think I'm a very nice guy. I don't know if I would've been a very nice guy if I didn't have a positive outlet. Like, all the training. And it's still, you know, I'm in my forties now, but I still train every day.

[00:26:43] Lawrence Dunning: not necessarily martial arts. I might go for a run. I might lift weights, I might do yoga, I might do jiujitsu, but I'm trying to do something physical every day because I think it makes me a happier person. I think it makes me an nicer person. I. the human body evolved to move to sweat.

[00:26:57] Lawrence Dunning: I think if I go to bed at the end of the day and I haven't broken a sweat in some way, I feel like it's not a great day. So I just think it's something that if you build it in your life, it makes you a much better person. and Hector, I just wanna say, so when you became a parent, you were in your mid-twenties.

[00:27:10] Hector: 25. Yeah.

[00:27:11] Lawrence Dunning: 25. Kudos to you. Kudos to you for doing this. to explore the, the subject, because actually just before we started this, I wanted to look up the actual definition of masculinity because obviously we all have definitions in our head and it's basically, the qualities or attributes. that's regarded of characteristics of men, and obviously that's changed over the years.

[00:27:31] Lawrence Dunning: You know, back in the fifties it was chain broing, Marlboros, and slapping your wife if she, says something back to you. now the world seems splits on, especially in the US I felt like half of the country wants men to still be men, and the other half want men to be this.

[00:27:45] Lawrence Dunning: almost cartoon character where we're in touch with our feelings and we're also gonna be providers. they want an almost unrealistic expectation of what a man is. That's just almost not possible. And actually in the, dating world, a lot of my single friends, that's something they complain about is they feel like the expectations of what women want in men.

[00:28:02] Lawrence Dunning: is almost possible to achieve now. It's almost unrealistic. they just want everything. They want the guy to be good looking. They want him to be insensitive and in touch with these feelings. They want it to be wealthy. They want it to be generous. They want him to be strong. They want him to be in shape.

[00:28:13] Lawrence Dunning: They just want absolutely everything. But then on their side, they don't really have that much to offer in many cases. I mean, all the statistics are showing there's just a growing number of single men and single women who want relationships, and they just can't seem to find the right person.

[00:28:27] Lawrence Dunning: I think a lot of that's because they're a little bit unrealistic in their desires.

[00:28:31] Hector: Yes. Yes, on both sides. and unrealistic in their responsibility to the situation too. Because I see, and I've talked about it a lot, my wife is, the perfect example of the, independent woman she's got four or five companies that she's running right now.

[00:28:48] Hector: she's just, crushing it as she should be. I could have very easily shrunk in my masculinity. I mean, there were, moments where my masculinity was, being called into question, and I could have, pointed at it in saying, that's just society, or your expectations are, crazy, when I peeled that off and I go, well, actually there were places where I was lacking in my own, masculinity where I was lacking and where I wasn't, taking as much leadership and providing as much direction or, all of these traditional things.

[00:29:20] Hector: 'cause I think in that conversation, what is. also true is that those women want. A man just as much as anything else. just because they're independent and, achieving and, and whatever. They, still have this need for structure and leadership and guidance and, provision and security and safety.

[00:29:40] Hector: And so I think it's just a calling up of men and I can't speak for women, I can only. Speak to the men that are listening, that, in that calling up though, will be, if not rewards in your mate, like there will be own personal rewards in evolving yourself.

[00:29:55] Hector: and foremost.

[00:29:57] Lawrence Dunning: But I love that Hector, that you're not intimidated by her success either. 'cause I know a lot of men do get intimidated by very successful women I think one of the biggest faults with couples is they look at each other or miss' competition among friends too, I want all my friends likeThe saying a rising tide lifts all boats. Like, I want all my friends around me to be doing well. if I hear great news about one of my friends who's killing it on some deal or got a big promotion or jujitsu body that wanna big tournament, I'm not gonna be in any way. Competitive that, oh, I'm not where I wanna be. I'm so inspired by that, and I'm so happy for them and so proud of them. I don't want to be the most successful guy in the room, all the time. I want to be, I wanna have people that I look up to, people that I admire in different ways.

[00:30:37] Lawrence Dunning: I think that's really healthy. And it's the same in relationships. You don't want to be the guy who's, if you're the man, Who's got all the status and all the prestige and all the money, and all the career success and, you're the one doing everything and your wife's just kind of this new person who's just raising the kids and not doing anything if she wants to be a stay at home mom.

[00:30:54] Lawrence Dunning: And You are both happy with that. I think that's awesome. If your wife wants to be, have her own career and follow her own goals, I think that's awesome too. I always tell my wife, I'm like, baby, we're a team. So we have to figure out what's best for ourselves with our resources and our strengths, what we enjoy doing.

[00:31:10] Lawrence Dunning: How can we both enjoy as many hours for every day doing what we're doing? And as a team, how are we gonna best raise our farm? And I think so many other ex-girlfriends and things. When I look back at the relationships, why they didn't work is 'cause I, I've never really had that mentality of we're a team, we're teammates.

[00:31:25] Lawrence Dunning: And I always tell my friends who want families, I'm like, listen, it's great if you find a woman very attractive. if she's fun, that's also great. But I think one of the most important characteristics you're looking, if you want someone to raise a family with is are they gonna be a good teammate of yours?

[00:31:38] Lawrence Dunning: 'cause you're gonna be teammates for 18 years, you know, 19, 20 years for life, even with, in some circumstances with kids. So, just having that different, mindset shift, I think is, great. I think the way you show that humility, you became a father when you were very young, And you have this desire to be your best self. That's one of the reasons I'm sure you're doing this podcast is 'cause you wanna talk about these things and you're gonna keep evolving your own thoughts on masculinity and being the best parent, the best father, the best husband, but also are very proud of your wife's success.

[00:32:04] Lawrence Dunning: And you look at it as, you guys are teammates.

[00:32:06] Hector: well, it wasn't easy and it was an evolution of it, you know, because. Intellectually. At first I was always proud of her success, but emotionally I kept getting triggered. there was a, the word that's coming to mind is an unraveling, you know, there was some scabs that I had to rip off or some programming really, that I had to let go of that for some reason, As much as I said in my head, babe, I want you to win.

[00:32:30] Hector: I'm proud of you. I want you to succeed. My body was not letting that happen. and energetically, she could sense that and pick up on that. And there was a real rift to where I had to, let go of some, deep rooted programming that was just not serving me anymore, We've gotten here but it was a process.

[00:32:47] Hector: I say that to guys not to be like, oh yeah, it was always easy because it, wasn't, it was actually very, very challenging.

[00:32:54] Lawrence Dunning: well, well, Hector, I'm really glad you said

[00:32:55] Lawrence Dunning: that because I think that I have a great marriage I talk about my wife as being my soulmates. I think in many ways she is, I'm so grateful that I met her because we're both immigrants. We both look at the world in the same way in many different ways. so I'm so grateful. Having said all of that, we still bicker, we still butt heads. it's not always smooth sailing. And the reason that I wanna highlight that is 'cause we live in a world where, pull up my Instagram and you're gonna see us. Last week we're hanging out on my buddy's boat.

[00:33:21] Lawrence Dunning: we were at a wedding. In Louisville with my son, it looks like everything's just perfect if you look at that online picture, but it's not always perfect, and that's a good relationship. So you can only imagine, you know, they're not so good relationships. So I think it's really good to say that it's really good that you stress that it took you a while to get this place.

[00:33:36] Lawrence Dunning: Because too many times people, they might look at you and be like, oh, it's easy for Hector. He is got a great marriage. He's got two kids. They don't appreciate that it took work to get to the place of having a good relationship. And I see that among a lot of successful entrepreneurs is. They'll put years into building a company. They'll put years into their business, but they expect to have like, you know, a few different dates and meet their perfect life partner and not do any work in their relationship. And I think everything takes work, whether it's maintaining close friendships, whether it's maintaining a great marriage, you know, life is work.

[00:34:06] Lawrence Dunning: I was young, I had the mentality where you could just do something and then you can kind of just tick the box, like, okay. I'm gonna box. I'm gonna win the golden gloves. I tick the box of being a badass, I'm done. But if you do that and then you don't train for three months, you're gonna be a slob.

[00:34:19] Lawrence Dunning: You know? Like you have unfortunately. It's like there's certain things where you have to do every day, and I've realized that that's happiness. it doesn't matter, where you are in life every single day there's gonna be aspects of struggle. I start every day with three minutes in the cold times 'cause I hate the mornings and I hate the cold.

[00:34:33] Lawrence Dunning: So I get in there and I do it. First day, every day I try and get a work in, and most days I'm old. My back hurts. I'm tired. I got a lot of work to do. I don't feel like doing it, but I do it anyway. So for me, success is not sitting around drinking margaritas on the beach. Retired success is doing hard things every day and getting them done so you can enjoy the rest of the day.

[00:34:52] Lawrence Dunning: I really believe that

[00:34:53] Hector: Lawrence, this has been a, conversation that I, would imagine could probably go on forever. 'cause, 'you said it, we are cut from the same cloth or we came from the same star or the sayings are. so maybe, we'll probably, definitely have to have you come back for round two.

[00:35:06] Hector: But if, people want to go deeper in your world, I know you've got your own show. where can people get connected with you?

[00:35:11] Lawrence Dunning: we're Kid of Spirits because my podcast is called End the Lionheart. And back when I was fighting that was, my nickname, Lionheart. I know you have a lion in your, podcast too. so you can listen to that and you can, um, just pull up my name, Lawrence Stein.

[00:35:22] Lawrence Dunning: I'm on, social media I just try and put out good energy and have conversations like this with kindred spirits. And the one thing I love about people like you and me is that we definitely don't think we have all the answers, but we work on ourselves and we're, we're trying to just improve every day.

[00:35:37] Lawrence Dunning: And I think that's what life is. Life isn't about getting to a place where you say, I figured it out. it's constant evolution and if we had this conversation three years ago, you would've said so many things to me as a parent yourself. When I wasn't a parent, that would've just gone completely over my head. Now I've changed my perspective on so many things, and I hope when I'm 50 in seven years, I've also evolved and I've also changed my perspective on so many things. So one thing I'll say is just don't be too dogmatic in your thinking because, I often look back at things that I said, or see myself from 10 years ago and cringing at some of the thoughts that I had then.

[00:36:10] Lawrence Dunning: And that's the way it should be. We should always be evolving. so don't be too hard on yourself and just be open to change. I think that's really important.

[00:36:17] Hector: Yeah, my son, started making a mistake that made early in my life, which was thinking that I knew it all. And he said, the other day, I know everything. I go, okay, I've, said that before. and little did I know that I now think I know nothing. So, uh, it's, uh, it's funny how things evolve.

[00:36:32] Lawrence Dunning: That's so that,

[00:36:34] Lawrence Dunning: that.

[00:36:34] Hector: Yeah. Yeah. Fellas, I wanna thank you for sticking around with us and, being here today. If you got some value added today, we would love a rating or a review wherever you get your podcasts. If you know a guy who is out there that needs to hear this, send it to him. And, what I've been saying on the show is that they're probably not asking for it.

[00:36:50] Hector: Like there's probably a guy in your life, a brother, a friend, a coworker who, is not. Asking for this stuff, but send it to 'em anyways. And just say that like, Hey, I was thinking about, yo, listen to this episode. I thought you might enjoy it because, I think that as men we have a, duty to, put our arms around each other and, bring each other through this, crazy fucking world we're living in today.

[00:37:12] Hector: So send it to somebody. Let's spread this tribe and let's grow this tribe together. And as always, we appreciate you being here. We'll see you on the next one later, fellas.