Becoming the Modern Alpha Male with with Ali Tag

[00:00:00] Hector: Fellas, what's going on? I hope this episode finds you well, and as always, hope this episode leaves you better than when it found you. Today's episode is with Ken Mossman, and he's another man who's been in the work for a long time. And I love bringing you guys these conversations because not only are they perhaps a couple of steps ahead of me, but they have been doing the work for a number of years.

[00:00:54] Hector: not even a number of years, for decades and has been leading men through this, path for decades. And we talk about some really interesting research, some really interesting things that he's been up to. and I just think that it's helpful for guys to see what we are experiencing here.

[00:01:11] Hector: Is not necessarily unexpected. I mean, it's exactly perhaps what we did expect. the great thing is, is that there are some guys out there can being one of them who have started to figure out some things that work. He also has identified some things haven't worked that don't work.

[00:01:27] Hector: And so we're gonna get into that. But it's a great conversation just about the men's movement, masculinity in general how things are, the same and how things are, different this time around. So enough of me, y'all let's get into today's episode, Ken Mossman.

[00:01:44] Hector: Ken, welcome to the Modern Masculinity podcast. Thanks for being here.

[00:01:47] Ken: Hector, thanks for having me. Looking forward to this conversation.

[00:01:51] Hector: Yeah, we were talking before recording about, you know, had anything come up, in between our pre call and now, and it seems what might not have come up in our lives? I don't mind when people ask me, how's it going? I'm still here.

[00:02:02] Hector: Things are still alive. Everyone's here. We're well enough. But that's been life. I'd love for you to take us into your world a little bit and take us into some things that you're challenged with as a man, a partner, provider father, any of those things.

[00:02:16] Ken: Where do you want me to start? That's pretty wildly open ended, yeah. Where do you want me to start, man?

[00:02:20] Hector: Today, is there something that, today is prescient and today that, you're feeling and that is, especially raw for you.

[00:02:28] Ken: I wouldn't say raw, Hector, but, one of the things that I've found myself, a topic I suppose, that I've found myself drawn to over and over again. Really for the past six or seven months is this idea of ancestry. And, as humans, a, but more specifically as men being good ancestors, showing up in the world as good ancestors, with a concern and a willingness to be responsible for what we're creating and what we're leaving for.

[00:03:04] Ken: The next several generations. So that's something

[00:03:08] Hector: How does that show up for you today? when I think about that, I look at the news. And it's I've got to distance myself from some of the media, right? And I'm playing that game of how do you stay informed, but also stay, at this point, stay sane and grounded. it seems to get harder and harder every day.

[00:03:25] Ken: Yeah, man. wish I had some actionable wisdom on that front, but I have to be honest with you. It's something that I also am wrestling with. I will say this, one of the things that's helped me to, step away from the news, step away from the doom scrolling has been this notion of responsibility and looking at, okay.

[00:03:44] Ken: There's huge problems happening out in the world right now, and what is it that I can, as one human being doing what I do in the world and being who I am, is it that, I can, happily take responsibility for and that and the and the impact of going in that direction tends to shrink things, I think in a really useful way.

[00:04:11] Ken: It's okay, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna stop as one human being. I'm not gonna stop a conflict halfway around the globe, but what I can take responsibility for is is on this side is not go to war with myself

[00:04:29] Hector: I think that's a problem that I, find myself. Battling against that at a both macro and a micro level is what does it even matter? And if everything is going to shit, and everything's going to hell, whether it's in my own life personally, or whether it's at a big scale what, I find this question like, why does it matter to do the things that matter?

[00:04:49] Hector: And it's that question just, I don't know that there's a bottom to that question, because it's like why is there any point in doing anything? If not now, then when would be worth doing it?

[00:04:57] Ken: Yeah if you let yourself go, love that actor to me, there's a bit of a, could be this kind of ego driven indulgence in that question. if none of it matters. Then why even bother, to go down that rabbit hole to me anyway.

[00:05:12] Ken: And I know there's certainly been times where, I've taken the bait on that one, but what I find is. then in some way, shape or form, I've given myself permission not to be responsible for anything, and if I go down and if I let myself go down that, that spiral, then I even on the right side of anything if I'm looking out there and saying, no, this can't be, we have to do something about this.

[00:05:36] Ken: If I've divorced myself entirely from responsibility, then, I think I've divorced myself of a right to have a say.

[00:05:45] Hector: well, and I'm only playing devil's advocate and also from my own experiences of sitting there and saying what causes these things? And for the most part, for the most of my life, I've been very positive. I've been very, by. By societal measures, successful. If people look at me, they go, Oh you've got it together.

[00:06:05] Hector: You, you've got the college degree. You got a good job out of school. You had kids, you married yet like the whole thing. And then life happens, and things don't go exactly as the script wet, or as the script had, or as I had it. Thought it was scripted.

[00:06:20] Hector: And all of a sudden, whether it's, financial challenges or struggles or health challenges or struggles or relationship challenges, struggles or all these sort of like real life sort of things there was a point in a perspective where I,felt helpless to it. I don't know that was the case, but it was the feeling of what can I do?

[00:06:37] Hector: feels like everything I'm trying to do It's not working. Or in spite of that, still here we are getting, onslaught by life. know that has pushed me up against that point of being and saying, what does it matter? And having to find and figure out those answers and really get to the root of why and find a purpose, amidst all of that chaos and conflict and strife and challenge and such.

[00:07:02] Ken: You just threw a lot into the pot there, Hector. And

[00:07:05] Ken: and so I'm wondering, all right, is there a question in there somewhere?

[00:07:07] Hector: No question there. There's just more to stir on.

[00:07:10] Ken: Yeah, a lot. So one of the things that I picked up really early in what you just shared is followed the script, I followed the plan the stepswhatever you would call those. And my question would then be, okay, whose plan was that?

[00:07:23] Ken: Like, where did you get that plan?

[00:07:25] Hector: I'll tell you it was the teachers. It was my mom. It was society. It was, college counselors and I ate it up. I hook line and sinker the whole thing. And I,went down that route

[00:07:37] Hector: and I'm now realizing

[00:07:38] Hector: that it was their path.

[00:07:40] Ken: Exactly. Exactly. And this is something that those of us who are in the, men's work biz, we hear a lot of it, we hear a lot of it on and out from a working with, working with clients for many years,

[00:07:51] Ken: It's the thing that I've heard. I'd say if I had a dollar for every time I heard this, I'd be a wealthy man. But the truth is probably I have way more than a dollar for every time I've heard this. And we won't discuss my finances, but it's such an important question to ask if you're following a plan, whose plan is it?

[00:08:09] Ken: Who authored it? When did they author it? What was my role? Did I just pick it up and decide, Oh, this looks like someone told me this is a good plan. So this is a good plan. So I'm going to follow it, only as you described. It's like I get 20, 30, 40, 50 X number of years down the road.

[00:08:27] Ken: And I realize, wow, don't have any authority here because because because I didn't author this thing, and oftentimes that just leaves, again, my experience that just leaves, that simply leaves one, scratching their head wondering, wow, why am I not satisfied?

[00:08:43] Ken: Whose life have you been living?

[00:08:46] Hector: and I think an added nuance to the challenge that a lot of our listeners are going through is that let's just call it challenge is much simpler when you're only focused or worried about or responsible for yourself. But as you go up the ladders of manhood, all of a sudden you start adding more people into who you're responsible for partner kids, sometimes even parents or.

[00:09:10] Hector: In laws of add on these different people and that it creates a different levels of complexity. And I've seen, in my own journey, losing my own path in, in the word that's coming to me is pursuit, but it wasn't really a pursuit losing my own journeylet's just call it in an excuse of doing it for somebody else and saying that I'm a I'm taking care of you or I'm taking care of your needs whatever it is.

[00:09:36] Hector: I'm focusing on you at the expense of focusing or filling up my own cup first, right? That whole oxygen mass

[00:09:44] Ken: Yeah. Put on your mask before helping other passengers. Yep.

[00:09:47] Hector: At the end. Yeah. At the deepest level, right? Of purpose at the deep at the level of the direction of your life. I wasn't putting on my own mask in that regard.

[00:09:56] Hector: And then, still in the middle of it, but looking at and pointing at and blaming other people, not realizing that it was my own lack of direction, my own lack of boundaries, my own lack of whatever that was actually causing this.

[00:10:09] Ken: and if I'm going in a, funky direction, call me back, Hector. 'cause the, because you're touching on some stuff that's really important. And I love that you used the word complexity because From an adult perspective. if we're not seeing the complexities around us

[00:10:20] Ken: then we're missing a lot. We're missing a lot. But I want to come back to this notion of purpose, because it's wildly important. this is my opinion. if your purpose is only about yourself. Then it's okay, great, that's wonderful.

[00:10:34] Ken: What is that serving? And if the only answer is it's serving me, okay, I'm going to come back with the same question. who is only serving you serving? We can go, so you can see the feedback loop in there. and we see out in the it's very vivid in the world of leadership right now, pointing to men whose sole purpose seems to be serving themselves.

[00:10:57] Ken: And, we see the impact of that. If we're paying attention, we see the impact of that. We see the potential damage of that. call it messy is a gross understatement. Now, fascinatingly, at the same time, If my purpose is only to serve others, and I've left myself out of the equation, becomes a formula for some form of martyrdom.

[00:11:21] Ken: I give and give for your kids, and what do I get in return? Nothing. Bupkis. Not particularly useful either. It's a different kind of feedback loop. in the case of the one whose purpose is strictly focused on themselves, everyone around them tends to get exhausted.

[00:11:38] Ken: In the case of the focus strictly on others, my purpose is focused strictly on others, then that's just a formula to wear me out. So The notion of purpose has to be more integrated, has to be more inclusive. Yeah, about world, the planet, the environment, etc.

[00:11:56] Ken: You need to be able to see yourself in that picture and understand the way your purpose, even if it's wildly generous. It's got to include you, you have to be in the equation somewhere. Otherwise things just get way out of balance.

[00:12:10] Hector: I'm glad you're saying that now, Ken, it would have been nice for you to mention to that me a few years ago. I say that in jest

[00:12:18] Ken: didn't call me.

[00:12:19] Hector: I know. but that's not enough of the conversation. And there's all of this, competing ideas of you only have 18 summers and you've got to do this and you have to do all these things.

[00:12:31] Hector: And. And it's if guys forget about taking care of themselves and forget about, tending to their own purpose and passions then they don't have anything, none of that else to provide, right? There's nothing left to give.

[00:12:43] Ken: Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:12:45] Hector: So let's talk about this integrated you got a great name for it, integrated adulthood, which which I think is really important. And you talked about, those of you guys who are just listening, Ken has been making this kind of infinite. Symbol in the air as he's talking about, some of these concepts and what's interesting is that when you said That when people are only focused on themselves that everybody else gets burned out when people are only focused on others that they get burnt out.

[00:13:07] Hector: And I think that you've got this process, though, to create something sustainable out of those two extremes, right? So what does that look like? And how might a guy better integrate themselves in their lives?

[00:13:19] Ken: Yeah. It's a really important question. So there are many parts. let's start with this notion that we are multi. I didn't make this up. I love it. We are multi dimensional beings. What does that even mean? At the very basic level, it means there's many different aspects of us.

[00:13:38] Ken: And this is common in the language. We talk aboutbody, mind integration, body, mind, spirit, body, mind, heart, however you want to say it. So a starting place is to look at not just body, not just mind, not just emotions, not none of these things in isolation, but to open yourself up to seeing the self as, and here's that infinity symbol again, I'm noticing, to open oneself up to seeing oneself as a system.

[00:14:05] Ken: That's part of a larger system. It could be a family, it could be community, et cetera. That's part of an even larger system. The world, we can go bigger, we can go all the way out to the universe just in terms of being part and parcel of these different systems. And the place to start is within our ourself, and.

[00:14:23] Ken: Some of the work that I do goes even farther into looking at, okay let's look at even more pieces of the system. Let's really unpack them one by one, how's your relationship with your own inner child? Do you have a relationship with your own inner child or did you vote him off your island because you were following the script, the formula?

[00:14:44] Ken: Let's go let's meet him or meet him again and get in the right relationship with him and bring him back home, recognize him as an integral part of ourselves. Same thing for all the different stages of development, tween years, adolescence, young adult, etc.

[00:15:01] Ken: There are aspects of us that are very much. Alive in, in, in those historical periods of our time for, of our lives alive in those different parts of our developmental stages of our life. And we wanna bring them in, we wanna be aware of them.

[00:15:14] Hector: What does that look like? Can Because I think about that and I've heard, doing inner child work or, doing that sort of stuff, but I've never heard it broken down about, going through and integrating each of those, developmental phases. Because as you're talking about it, I'm like, there was like a different kid at each of those phases going through different things.

[00:15:33] Hector: And in my own work, I've seen myself go in and work through some of those the glaring ones and the ones that, that seemed like they were most obvious, but also I would imagine that there's some work to be done for those phases that weren't as painful or as obviously traumatic but still work to do, I would imagine

[00:15:52] Ken: Yeah. I want to make something really clear that we're not necessarily talking about, we're not actually talking about opening up, re traumatizing these parts of ourselves. I want to be really clear about that. And you said it beautifully.

[00:16:04] Ken: It's oh, okay. I remember they're like almost different. I'm paraphrasing Hector, but almost like they're different people. In many ways they are different people because we're, we change in our level are hopefully, we grow in our level of sophistication, our level of discernment and our level and our capacity to appreciate difference and complexity, all these things, as we develop, we become more sophisticated in them.

[00:16:27] Ken: And at the same time, and I'll use myself as an example. there is this playful little kid who's very much a part of meThat at times I want to talk to him, I want him to guide the show. if I'm out and about in the world, man, no one's a better tour guide for being out in, say nature.

[00:16:45] Ken: For discovering things and looking under rocks and, exploring a forest, for example. So I want to be in alliance with him. I want to be able to call on him. I want to be discerning as an adult. I want to be discerning about when I'm asking him to, guide and when I'm asking him To sit back, another example I'll give the interadolescent, wildly curious, wildly curious.

[00:17:10] Ken: If you think about yourself as an adolescent, wildly curious, probably idealistic, hugely creative. Never bored with anything having to do with sex, for instance and also a great part of self to partner with for different reasons. If I've got a creative project, I want to be in partnership with my own inner adolescent, cause he's gonna have wild and.

[00:17:34] Ken: crazy ideas and ideals, most of which are just, beyond the pale in terms of practicality on the one hand, on the other hand, had some kind of cool ideas over time, but I want to be, as an adult, I want to be really discerning about, if I'm feeling hurt.

[00:17:52] Ken: For instance, because there's a lot of different kinds of hurts that come during our adolescent years. I don't want him, I don't want him running the show. I don't want him to be showing up for instance, for an argument with my wife. If we're having some sort of a disagreement, not a useful resource in instances where there's disagreement, because he's just going to go to the time where his high school girlfriend did X, Y, Z, and that's has absolutely nothing to do with where we are in the moment right now.

[00:18:22] Ken: If I've integrated him, I can say. Yeah, let's just sit this one out. I've got this, I'll handle this. This is not your job. There's more. I, I, could say about that, but that's

[00:18:31] Hector: sounds a lot like a family. What is it called? Family systems, family,

[00:18:35] Ken: internal Family Systems.

[00:18:36] Hector: internal family systems. Yeah. Are you familiar with that?

[00:18:39] Ken: am not trained in, I'm not trained in IFS, so am I familiar with it? Yes. Am I trained in it? No.

[00:18:47] Hector: I'd imagine they're pulling from similar kinds of themes. And when I heard about IFS and it was really, I don't know what the word is and enlightening perhaps to me because I always felt that there was so many conflicted parts of myself, so many things that, I shamed myself self for, and when I pull back the layers, it's like I'm doing that.

[00:19:09] Hector: Like I was the one who was shaming or making fun of this kid. For me, it was like, I love to dance. I loved, dancing as a kid. And but I also grew up right around the time of boy bands in the 2000s. And so there was this huge cultural stigma about it. Boys that danced and there was just like there was all of these things and I can't tell you, you know My dad would never go for me joining a dance there was all these cultural stigmas and all these familial kind of stigmas And so I when I think about me wanting to my daughter She's like daddy dance with me and like internally I'm like I hear myself initially saying no that's silly or no don't do that or no this is not the time for that sort of stuff.

[00:19:51] Hector: that's only coming from that, that conditioned place of not what you're talking about, integrating that, that part of me that enjoys dancing and thought of himself as a young Michael Jackson and Justin Timberlake.

[00:20:06] Hector: Yeah.

[00:20:07] Ken: why not? I love that you brought the example of your daughter saying, oh, daddy, come dance with me. How cool is that? How much fun is that? it's funny reminds me of a story I've told a number of times.

[00:20:17] Ken: it was a Halloween thing. We at this farm, and, pumpkins all over the place, apples, the whole hayrides, the whole thing, and there was music playing, and there was this little girl, she had to be about I don't know, she probably three years old.

[00:20:31] Ken: She's probably three years old. And this little girl just full of life and delight is is dancing with a pumpkin. She's dancing with a pumpkin. and I'm watching her and,she is just happy off the charts, just full of joy. And her father comes up to her and says, honey, you're being silly and don't do silly.

[00:20:51] Ken: And first of all, I wanted to kill him just saying, because it was like a knife in the gut because I saw, this little being who was just full of joy, expressing herself, just having a good old time harming no one. In any way, it couldn't possibly, and I just watched her father just let all the air out of her joy.

[00:21:15] Ken: And I just could not, to this day, you can see it in my face, it's like, why, why, and what, wounding had he not dealt with? that he was passing on to, the next generation. is she gonna rebel against that and allow her own children to be silly?

[00:21:34] Ken: Gosh, I hope so, but maybe not, which is just plain sad.

[00:21:38] Hector: Yeah. the undoing of generational trauma. I remember one of our earliest guests came on and when he talked about Was that they could see diabetes in the grandfather like they could trace it You know two generations before and that his point was that if this is coming out in medical, conditions Why wouldn't it be coming out in psychological, in spirit, in emotion, like in everything up the chain, right?

[00:22:04] Hector: You talked about us being multidimensional beings, wherever you're at on, your religious, your spiritual journey we have a physical body, which you can measure and you can take stats and blood pressure and monitor and stuff like that. Then we've got emotions. Which you might be able to put those on a monitor or see those on over. But a different sort of thing. Those exist in a different place. And then we've got this thing that we think we are right. We are some sort of person. So it's like no matter how scientific or spiritual or whatever you want to get, we are that.

[00:22:33] Hector: And so there are all these components that are being pulled along. And what you're saying is that it's moments like that, that transfer That sort of trauma onto the next generation when we stifle and we remove that ability to express themselves or we remove our inability to deal with our own emotions prevents them from experiencing whatever they're meant to experience.

[00:22:55] Hector: And that happened at scale at, without any awareness is how we're at where we're at.

[00:23:01] Ken: Yeah, I'd be curious to hear what an epigeneticist would say about that, because I'm sure they'd probably have some pretty cool science to point to. Around, all of those things.

[00:23:11] Hector: Yeah, go back and listen to our episode for you listeners. Dr Ted Ransaw came on and talked about and that's exactly it. he studied that sort of stuff and really how started off from, fatherless parents, I think is what it started with and how that, shaped and created children and the downstream effects of all that sort of stuff.

[00:23:30] Hector: Coming back to this integrated adulthood thing, I think so. You mentioned like the first part is going backwards doing some of the work to, words come to mind is get comfortable with our previous selves, but it's even more than that. It's like befriending, falling in love.

[00:23:45] Hector: What does that process actually look once you've done the work? How do you integrate them if you will?

[00:23:50] Ken: Yeah. I want to make a distinction and this is a bit of a headbender. I want to make a distinction and that is it's not so much about going backwards. It's to meet those aspects of ourselves in real time, because I mentioned I have, my own inner child. My inner child is with me now in this moment in real time, same is true for the other parts, my inner adolescent, my shadows, my ego, all these different my masculine self, my feminine self,name it all of these different parts are very much with me in real time.

[00:24:23] Ken: And they're part of what makes up. That integrated adult is a whole person. So ask me the question again, cause I just wanted to make that distinction. It's not so much about going back going back in our own personal history. It's recognizing those aspects of self and where they are now in real time and how they're doing in real time.

[00:24:39] Hector: maybe it's not necessarily going backwards, once work has been done To what is the day to day work? Look like, how might someone once they've, acknowledged these different parts of ourselves become acquainted and, comfortable, whatever that may be like talked a little bit about leveraging and using certain parts in different times.

[00:24:57] Hector: But I'm curious how you are, moving throughout the day with all of these tools. Thanks. Shadows and masculine. Like, how do you integrate that without looking I don't know, insert word here. I don't want to offend anybody, but looking like someone that's not normal. Or does that even matter these days? Who cares about normal?

[00:25:15] Ken: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:25:16] Hector: not not getting the loony bin calls on you or whatever might be, people's reactions to this kind of, seemingly revolutionary way about Of carrying yourself throughout the day. Have

[00:25:27] Ken: first of all, recognition that is not revolutionary, nor is it new, if you think about it, Rumi writing poems about this stuff hundreds and hundreds of years ago if you're familiar with the poem, The Guest House, where he talks aboutthese different things showing up at your door they're different parts of self, they're different parts of self or expressions of different parts of self.

[00:25:51] Ken: there's like everything else, this is not new stuff. And it's so wildly common in our language and in our culture. If you think about cartoons where the characters trying to make a decision. And there's the devil on one side speaking into the characters here, and there's the angel on the other side talking.

[00:26:09] Ken: And the reason that we find that stuff so funny and engaging is because we all have that experience. Oh, and we say, yeah, there's a part of me that wants pizza. And there's another part of me that wants. to go out for Chinese, it's okay, for mundane things like that.

[00:26:24] Ken: So it's a part, it's such a part of our language and it's such a part of our reality, if you will or certainly the culture so the job becomes to, okay, if that's out there, which it is, and it's been out there forever, let's take a deeper look at it and begin to really I don't want to say I will use this language.

[00:26:43] Ken: We want to isolate those different aspects. As I mentioned before, to get into relationship with them, to get to know them, what are we getting to, what are we doing there when we're getting to know them, we're getting to know ourselves better, and then once we have an experience of those different pieces of self.

[00:27:01] Ken: Then we're more able to be in communication with them. What am I really talking about? I'm talking about being in communication with myself. I hear a limiting belief. That's a voice in my head, not something that I need to seek psychological care for necessarily.

[00:27:14] Ken: I'm speaking for myself. Some people do need to seek psychological help for the voices in their head. This is a different kind of thing. It's like, Oh, I know that, that one that tells me that I'll never get it right. That one that tells me that I'm never enough. or the one that tells me that, everyone else in the room here is an idiot.

[00:27:32] Ken: It's just a different side of that same voice, by the way.

[00:27:36] Hector: one of the core wounds, if you will, was my third grade crush who I,worked, I had a crush on her for years, I finally worked up the balls to tell her, one day after school, and I professed my love for her, and she ran away in terror.

[00:27:52] Hector: She literally just ran away and it crushed my eight year old. I think I was eight, right around there, my eight year old self. and then we find other experiences to match

[00:28:01] Ken: right. To echo.

[00:28:02] Hector: To echo that wound and we pay attention to those and hyper focus on those ones.

[00:28:05] Hector: And so that kind of similar things have played out. And so I guess my question is I'm, 32 and it's like, how do you stop the echoes? Like, how do we prevent the echoes or the echoes bound to happen? we just don't listen to them. What's the next step

[00:28:20] Ken: Yeah. It's such a good question. So the echoes are going to happen, and I want to make a distinctionwhat we'll do with our mind, this great computer, this great pattern recognizer, the, what the mind is going to do it's going to do something like, okay, here we go again.

[00:28:36] Ken: Here we go again. This is just like when I was eight years old and, my third grade Crush, ran away when I professed my love to her. So first of all, that is a lie. there's a piece of getting current recognizing what's going on in this moment. It's is this really happening at that same level that innocent me professed my love for this third grade girl?

[00:29:00] Ken: And she freaked out and ran away. Who knows what was going on for her at the time. So one of the pieces is to really be slow down, and all of these things, I'm saying them as if they're dirt simple. And on the one hand, they are dirt simple.

[00:29:15] Ken: And on the other hand, they take years and years of conscious practice. To be able to slow down and toyou know, approach that with a little more sophistication and to ask is this really that, is this really a repeat of that? Am I the same person that I was when I was eight years old in third grade?

[00:29:37] Ken: No, I have the same name, et cetera. I have that history, but am I the same person? Thank goodness, no. Is this person that I'm having this response to, or what just happened, is it really the same as that? And if we really stop and look, the answer is no. This is a different moment.

[00:29:54] Ken: This is what's happening here and now, and this is where knowing those different parts of self and being in right relation to those different parts of self becomes. Even more important because being able to say to that eight year old in me who's being retraumatized by this because he thinks it's happening all over again and he's never going to find the love of his life or he's always going to be rejected, which is not true, yeah.

[00:30:20] Ken: Will there be rejections? Yeah, of course there will be. Are you going to get along with everybody in the world? No, of course not. It's not the way it works. But to be able to slow things down enough to make those distinctions and to be able to advocate that little one, in that little one inside and let him know, Hey, I gotcha.

[00:30:39] Ken: I gotcha. This isn't yours. This is mine, and if you want to, we can sit down and have a conversation about this later, but right now, just know that I've got you. I love you. You're protected. And, this is my, this is not yours to handle, not yours to react or respond to.

[00:30:59] Ken: It's a lot to that.

[00:31:01] Hector: Yeah, but I think the awareness is. Of them being separate, like the idea of acknowledging a part of me feels this way,

[00:31:09] Ken: Exactly.

[00:31:11] Hector: a part of me feels this way. I think that's a big part of the I. F. S. Kind of thing is that, and what it does is it releases the pressure.

[00:31:18] Hector: Both ways of how or the judgment, if you will, of that feeling. And so ifif you're pissed off or you're jealous or you're whatever, whatever these things are, a part of me feels this way. It doesn't mean that's you or doesn't mean that is who you are, but that there is a part of you that is experiencing this.

[00:31:35] Hector: And then awareness to separate that because I think The challenge with emotions, and especially for guys who are very untrained emotionally, is that emotions, when they're at their peak, are very sticky. And so it's, they're gripping and they're like getting yanked by something.

[00:31:51] Hector: You're not able to stand in your own strength if you're not aware of that pull. it's like a dog, I'm not liking it to a dog, pulling on a leash. If you're not ready, I've got a pit bull and if you're not ready for her to take off at full speed, she'll drag you.

[00:32:06] Hector: But if all of a sudden you're standing and you're ready and you're willing, then, she's going to get dragged back by your strength and your spot, Because you have that awareness, right? And so I think it's that same kind of thing. But it's hard for guys who are so untrained in these things because you have to peel back the layers.

[00:32:24] Hector: you've got to be able to step outside of that emotion how it feels. And to go, why am I feeling this? Oh, that's what it's for. and that's hard to do when you're like pissed off.

[00:32:32] Ken: And there are times, Hector, also, and I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but there are absolutely times allow oneself to be pissed off, and we all react this is one of the reasons why these things are practices and it's not a checklist it's like i did that got pissed once never have to do it again i know what that's like you know i remember i was once said.

[00:32:52] Ken: Done with that, no, it doesn't work that way. Again, it doesn't work their way. There's absolutely nothing about the human operating system, including the emotional realm, that set it and forget it, work that way. And yeah, it does take awareness it takes getting to know oneself, all aspects of oneself, a deep,

[00:33:19] Ken: Acceptance is an acknowledgment that this is the way things are at this moment in time. Acceptance isn't the same thing as approval or resignation. Acceptance is a recognition this is the way things are. And sometimes this is the way things are as I'm pissed. Acceptance also isn't an excuse. That's just the way I am.

[00:33:41] Ken: I'm pissed. And therefore you're wrong. Thanks a lot. No, because there's no responsibility in that either. Hopefully you're hearing in all this that, it's a combination of practices of awareness and practices of intention and practices of responsibility. Practice, lather, rinse, repeat.

[00:33:57] Hector: what I see is, you really presenting perspective, a framework through which to look at things. And I think that underneath that, at least for me, the thing that allowed that or allows for me to have that perspective. Is some sort of contemplative practices, right?

[00:34:14] Hector: It started off for me with meditation. Meditation grew into mindfulness. Mindfulness evolved into breath work. And so now it's like all these three things that are coming together. But without those, I don't have the ability to separate myself from the emotion. I don't have my ability to separate not only myself from the emotion, but separate the emotion from the event.

[00:34:36] Hector: Because I see a lot of times, like in my kids, especially And I'm only playing as kids, but I know that it happens in adults, but my kids freak out about something, but that's something that they say they're freaking out about. It's not the root cause of what's causing their emotion. My wife has been traveling a lot.

[00:34:52] Hector: And they, the kids miss their mom naturally and I noticed that they are much less emotionally strong when she's not around and they're having trouble freaking out, putting on their shoes and she's absolutely throwing a tantrum about her shoes and we get through it and it's okay, the shoes are giving her some trouble, but four minutes into the tantrum, she's screaming, I miss mommy, like I miss mommy, and I think that the same thing happens with guys is And I noticed that I'll lose my shit a little bit on my kids or like something like that, where I'm like, whoa, that was reaction that did not fit the circumstance and I have to take a step back and go what is it that's causing me?

[00:35:28] Hector: Oh, yeah, there's other things going on. Stress or work stress, whatever. That's causing me To react this way. that first bit of awareness is like the first defense against just that inert reaction that comes from the emotion,

[00:35:39] Ken: Again, there's a lot to peel apart there. Chances are if you're having, chances are if you're having an emotional reaction to something that's small, it's not the small thing you're having an outsized emotional reaction to. The classic example is she never screws the toothpaste Tubetop on right.

[00:36:00] Ken: Really? Is that thing really a thing? that the hill you want to die on here? Let's look at the larger picture ofwhat's going on.It comes right back to awareness. And it's an interesting point because I've noticed I'm pulled in two directions at this point right now, Hector.

[00:36:17] Ken: And one is, this is the way the culture emotion. It's you're just over emotional. You're just over emotional or, don't be so emotional.

[00:36:25] Ken: that's as useful as saying, calm down. When someone's upset calm down. Okay, be an angel from beyond right now and maybe I'll come down. You go first. It's ridiculous on the one hand. On the other hand, it's Oh, okay.

[00:36:37] Ken: What is it about emotion that we have such a hard time with? And I think it's really important from an emotional point of view too. And this is again, there's more practices here and that is the recognition that Emotions are data,

[00:36:50] Ken: There's huge information to be found in emotions if we're willing to experience them and really take a look at them and dare I say, take ownership of them. I'll use a little bit more language, become emotionally literate, become emotionally flexible on the way to becoming emotionally fluent.

[00:37:14] Ken: Because the more, friendly we are, the more we recognize that, oh, these emotions are actually, they're all friends. Wait a minute, you're saying that when I feel hatred that I'm with a friend and I would argue, yeah, you bet. There's information in that, if you're really feeling that.

[00:37:32] Ken: If I'm enraged, if I'm outraged which is not to say, also a distinction to be made between strong emotion and acting out, because they are not the same thing. one is, internal. experience. And the other is taking that internal experience and not taking responsibility or ownership for it, but going out and acting out in potentially destructive ways.

[00:37:58] Ken: Cause you can feel absolutely outraged without breaking stuff. You can feel violently angry without hurting someone. You can feel deep love. Without having to, jump in the bed with somebody all of it everything in between, you can be feeling deep joy and be completely still, all of these things can exist at the same time again.

[00:38:24] Ken: And I'm pointing to another, quality of that integrated adult, that conscious adult, which is to be able to hold different things, sometimes paradoxical, sometimes holding paradox, things that shouldn't be able to occupy the same space. It's like I'm lividly angry right now, and I'm calm as an early morning mountain pond.

[00:38:45] Hector: it's hard sometimes for I think a lot of guys to contextualize this sort of stuff if they're not going through it, or if they haven't found a reason to go for go through seek that kind of stuff. And I was talking with Larry Hagner yesterday from the dad edge recorded episode.

[00:39:04] Hector: And he, his thing was like, do you want to wait for house to burn down, before you, fix the electrical, socket or if we notice. You know that there is something off. Can we put the attention there and proactively, improve ourselves.

[00:39:21] Hector: So that way the if and when these echoes or if and when these experiences do come that we're better prepared to handle them.

[00:39:29] Ken: I agree.

[00:39:30] Hector: Ken, this has been a really great conversation. I appreciate you shedding some light and some insights on this stuff. this is your work. So I'd love for you to share where guys might be able to go and learn more about you and how they can get deeper in your world.

[00:39:42] Ken: Yeah, great. Thank you. A few different places. One of them, also host a podcast. It's called Mojo for the Modern Man, and you can find that wherever podcasts are found. And it's also an interview format. Some great guests on there and always more coming. Hope to have you on at some point. My website, Ken Mossman.

[00:40:03] Ken: com is a great place to go and start. I do a lot of writing. there's a page of my blog there. There's also every episode of my podcast there. And there is a program that I run a couple of times. A year called I am, which stands for the integrated adult man. And that's where we take a deep dive over the course of 15 weeks.

[00:40:28] Ken: So it's a commitment and I think appropriately. So a deep dive over the course of 15 weeks to some of the stuff that I talked about to meet and get into relationship with these different aspects of self, really look at the complex. beings that we are as adult men. And quite frankly there's an invitation in that work to step a hundred percent into becoming, that into stepping into this state of conscious integrated adulthood.

[00:40:55] Ken: Those are places where people can find me.

[00:40:58] Hector: The most recent episode that Ken published, I think is called assholes and angels. So there's a there's a little tease for you on what you can expect, but it looks like a great read, a great find. I just subscribed. I just followed there on Spotify and I want to thank all of you listeners for sticking around, hanging out with us.

[00:41:15] Hector: We appreciate you. You got some value out of today. We'd love a rating or review wherever you get your podcast, especially on Spotify. We're trying to make a little push there because we just that seems to be the place to be for all the cool kids. So if you happen to have Spotify on your phone or somehow on your computer, if you can open up the show, there's some stars at the top.

[00:41:33] Hector: And if you can click those and give us as many stars you think we're worth. Yeah. We'd be forever grateful for that. And if you know a guy who's in the middle of something going through something, or you just know that they are, they're experiencing more life than they have, maybe they getting married or having a kid, getting a new job, something like that, that that you think that they might benefit from this cinema, send this episode and check in on them, let them know you're thinking about them.

[00:41:54] Hector: I know it'll go a really long way and as always, we appreciate you being a part of the fam, the tribe. We'll see on the next one later. Y'all.