The Male Loneliness Epidemic: Breaking Free From Shame with Dan Ross

ModM - 118 - Don Ross

Don Ross [00:00:00] I think the way our society is set up right now, kind of dupes men in that way because we go through the school system, right through like high school, and if you go on to college, like even through college where you're surrounded by your peers, you're surrounded by people who are the same age as you, going through all the same things that you're going through at the same time that you're going through them.

Don Ross And then you get into adulthood and all of a sudden it completely changes. You know, adulthood is not like that at all. You're around people who are all different ages, all different stages of life. You don't see them every day. You see them intermittently. They're not all going through the same things that you're going through.

Don Ross Your coworkers might be at very different stages of life than you are in dealing with very different struggles. And so it's like, it's completely disorienting and, and super confusing. Done. Welcome to the Modern Masculinity Pod. It's, uh, it's great to have

Hector you here. Yeah, Hector, thanks for having me. I'm excited because, well, I, I just love having these conversations.

Hector I realize that in life there are certain things that I get a lot of anxiety about going do or going, you know, to, uh, [00:01:00] one of 'em recently was, uh, my daughter's cheer camp that brought a lot of anxiety outta me. And, and on the opposite end of the spectrum are these conversations which, um, you know, are just so enjoyable to have because I think it gives guys like us a chance to.

Hector Have a little bit of a, a break, a respite from all the world, you know, all the world's pullings. And, um, I'd love for you to, to take us into your world. You know what, the question that I ask all the guests is like, what, what load, what burden, what cross, what, what muck are you still, you know, mucking through as a guide today, um, that you find yourself still navigating through?

Hector Yeah.

Don Ross I, you know, I think, uh, today I find myself in the muck that I think a lot of guys find themselves in, which is, um, we, we live in a society and a culture where it's just hard for men to connect with other men. Like it's a very isolating society. There's not a lot of spaces, uh, in our culture anymore where men can just get together as [00:02:00] men.

Don Ross Uh, and I think because of that, we've kinda lost the art of male friendship a little bit. And, uh, so, you know, I kind of see it as my like almost goal in life to try to like build really good men friends and, uh, to help other guys be able to do the same. So that's, uh, yeah, that's a little bit of me.

Hector Yeah, it, it was interesting.

Hector I went out on like a, it. A guy's night out. It was really, it was the dads of all of, like the elementary school crew. We call ourselves like the the Springbrook Mafia and we are anything but, but nefarious, right? I mean, it is literally we coordinate, you know, uh, bicycle, uh, riding, uh, play dates and, uh, the girl, the moms always get a chance to go out and it was the first time that the guys dads got a chance to go together.

Hector And so we were like, we had a hard pro, hard time figuring out where we were gonna go and what we were gonna do. And, uh, all they, they, you know, they wanted to go and, and have drinks and beers and all that sort of stuff, which is fine and great. And we ended up bowling and we get [00:03:00] there and it's, this really, you know, it's everyone's kind of.

Hector Interesting. 'cause like it's everyone's kind of awkward. And I was like, why is everyone like awkward here? Like, this is weird. And one of the guys finally was like, you know, this is so nice guys. He's like, I, I moved here, blah, blah, blah. And I don't have any friends. Like, he's like, this is the first like group of guys that like I can like, hang out with and like go and be and feel, you know, normal with.

Hector And I was like. Uh, that I think is sort of what you're speaking to, right? It's like people, people don't have that. And, uh, it's tough or, uh, yeah. I imagine it's tough in this world where guys have responsibilities and the internet and everyone's working remote and, uh, it's just not necessarily conducive to, to those, you know, friendships that maybe, uh, or more commonplace.

Don Ross Yeah, I think so. I mean, like, I had lunch with a, with a friend today. And he was just saying he and his wife moved to the area where I'm in kind of near Raleigh, North Carolina, um, about seven or eight years ago. And he said it was just not too long [00:04:00] ago that his wife was asking him like, does this feel like home to you?

Don Ross And he was saying, no. Like, not really. Like, I live here and I enjoy living here, but it doesn't quite feel like home. And, and she said, well, why not? He said, I, I just don't feel like I have my people here. Like, like there's just, you know, I haven't connected with a group of guys. Like I, I know some guys, but I just don't feel like I have, like, you know, if something gets desperate or I really need somebody to call, like, I don't know who that would be.

Don Ross You know, I don't, nobody that I know I'm close enough to, you know, other than like, we play flag football together or something, you know, it just is kind of like, we're pretty good at this sort of like. Shallow casual. You know, our, our lives overlap a little bit, you know, in some kind of weird Venn diagram way.

Don Ross Like I can do those connections, but when it comes to like shared life and meaningful friendships, we, we kind of don't know how to do that anymore. And our culture doesn't help us a lot. So I, yeah, I, I think you're, I think you're spot on and I think that's kind of what I, I like investing my time into,

Hector you know, it's [00:05:00] interesting.

Hector One of the things I have, like a. A Gardens of Life assessment that I, I do as, as often as I can bring myself to, whether it's weekly or quarterly or monthly or whatever. It's, and it's pretty nerdy, but on one of 'em is like, that I measure myself on is like how I think it's, I think the, the line item is like man talks.

Hector It's like how, how consistent are you with your man talk? Because I remember when I was going through it and my life was falling apart, it was like if I was able to reach out to a guy and connect with a guy and really. Have a conversation like this, right, where it was just like, we just are able to sort of put our shield down and just sort of connect and relate like that.

Hector For me, it was like, oh my goodness, this is, this is a little bit easier. I think, like I didn't know what it was or what was happening, but I was like, okay, this is, this is, is getting easier. I'm getting better. This is helping me move through it. And so it became one of the tools and resources that, like I lean on and I go if [00:06:00] like, oh, if things are not where I want them to be, it's like, hmm.

Hector Like your man talks. You haven't had any this month. Like, no wonder you're off.

Don Ross Yep. Uh, no. Uh, 100%. I'm, I, yeah, I kind of feel like, uh, I need that at least every week in order to just be able to kind of keep afloat. You know? Like, I, I think some of it is, is that, you know, for us as guys, like, I think the culture kind of pushes us in the direction of like.

Don Ross As you get out of college into the stage of life where you're thinking about getting married and you know, maybe having kids or whatnot, the culture kind of pushes us a little bit towards like leaning on our, our significant other as like the only relationship that really matters or that really counts in life.

Don Ross And not that you shouldn't be close with your wife, uh, but you know, she's a girl. She processes life really different than we do. And so the, the idea of being able to. Talk through the challenges that you're facing as a man. Uh, and for her to be able to understand it the way that you understand it as a man.

Don Ross You know, it's like it's just not gonna [00:07:00] happen. And so, you know, I think we all need that. All of us as guys need just other men in our lives who are aware of what's going on in our lives, helping us to see it through their eyes and kind of make sense of it in some ways that our wives just never will.

Don Ross And that's okay. That's not a fault of theirs. We're just different. And it's okay that we're different. Poof. Yeah,

Hector I made that that mistake. I'm guilty of that. Huge. And just. Expecting my partner to provide all of my emotional needs, right? Like, let alone I wasn't even taking care of myself emotionally. Now I'm putting all of that emotional wounded and ba baggage onto somebody else.

Hector It's like a, it's not fair. And no wonder things, you know, worked out sort of the way that they worked out, you know, for you, is it. Is it a framework thing? Is it a, is it a purpose thing? Like when you, when it comes to, you know, what it is that you're doing with guys and why you're doing it, you know, to try and sum up sort of your [00:08:00] message, does it come down to a framework, a belief, an ethos, uh, a mindset?

Hector Like what, what do you feel like it's all sort of built around?

Don Ross Yeah. Uh, it does now, but it definitely didn't start that way. I had to kind of fumble my way through the dark for about 20 years to sort of figure out like. What, what did the framework actually look like? And you know, just the fact that it took me that long to be able to figure it out, I think is kind of a reinforcement of the fact of like, oh, as men, we don't really know how to do this anymore.

Don Ross You know, it, it just, it's, it's a lost art. It's kind of a foreign skillset. Um, and so yeah, it does, it does take time. And I think that was kind of my motivation for starting to build a framework was just to say, you know, we need some help here guys. Guys need it put into a little bit, you know, simpler nuts and bolts.

Don Ross Yeah, the framework essentially is, is a model that I call Tribe. Well, was, was there,

Hector was there a, were there moments though throughout, like, you know, the listeners have heard all about my, you know, my relationship and kids and parenting and like all that whole arc, but like for you, was there an [00:09:00] arc? Was it a, was it a, a moment?

Hector Like how did that come about?

Don Ross Yeah, it was, uh, it was, I would say kind of a, a series of intense moments in my twenties and then sort of a slow building arc from there. Yeah, when I was, um, kind of in my, like college and early 20 years, um, I found myself in a place where I was just really living basically a double life.

Don Ross So, uh, I was in college, I was involved in pretty much everything like leadership and faith-based that you could find on campus. Like, you know, I was kind of like the standup good guy, uh, you know, trying to live a life that looked like that and, and model that for others. Kind of on the side. I, at the same time found myself, uh, getting deeper and deeper into an addiction to internet porn.

Don Ross And at that time, you know, to date myself a little bit, internet porn was still basically a new thing. I mean, high speed internet was kind of a, a new thing at that point in time. So it wasn't, uh, you actually had to download stuff. Yeah. You know, it's wild that back in the day where you, you had [00:10:00] to store it to your hard drive.

Don Ross Yeah. Can't imagine what cloud, you know, there was no such thing. Um. Yeah, these were the days of Napster. You know, foul sharing was as close as we got to anything. So, uh, yeah. So, you know, at that point in time, uh, internet porn wasn't talked about the way that it is today. It was still very much a, a taboo kind of hidden, uh, thing in the culture.

Don Ross It was sort of just emerging, um, despite the fact that, you know, every guy I was around was using it as well. Um, you know, nobody really talked about it. But for me, you know, like I was especially not talking about it because I had, you know, this lifestyle that I was kind of putting, uh, upfront that was really different than what was going on behind the scenes.

Don Ross And uh, and I just really kind of got to a place where, you know, I felt like I had tried everything to quit. Like that was not something that I wanted to be part of my life. It didn't feel like that was true to how I wanted to live and who I wanted to be. But, uh, but it had its claws sunk pretty deep into me.

Don Ross And so. For [00:11:00] me, the process, uh, I just really kind of came to a place of desperation after trying, you know, every bit of willpower that I possibly knew how to imagine from, you know, like. Uh, taking the door of my dorm room off its hinges, or, you know, like giving my, uh, roommates in my apartment complex, the password to my computer so that I couldn't log on without one of them helping.

Don Ross Like, I was doing everything and none of it was really working, you know? And so, uh, I, I just kind of got to a place of desperation with God and just was trying to say like, Hey, I, I don't know what to do here, but if, if you can get me out of this. Um, then I'll do whatever it is that you would ask of. And, uh, I meant that.

Don Ross But the one thing in the back of my mind that I really did not wanna have to do was to talk to somebody else about it. And sure enough, that was the very thing, of course, that he asked me to do. Um, I can remember it real clearly. I felt like I, I heard from God. I felt just, you know, kind of in my heart, felt like he told me that I needed to confess it.

Don Ross And, uh, I knew that that wasn't something that he meant

[00:12:00] that I just needed to do to him because I'd done that a thousand times over. That I really needed to confess it to somebody else. And, uh, and so with, uh, a lot of, uh, fear and hesitation and, uh, you know, just like kind of unwillingly, uh, going into it, I did, I, I found a friend that I felt like I could trust and, and had a really, uh, hard conversation with him.

Don Ross Uh, just sort of bearing my soul and talking about all the ways that I was dealing with this and how much of a, an issue it had become for me and you know, that it was causing me to. Skip classes and miss out on relationships. I mean, you know, just all the ways that, uh, it had really, horn had really, you know, kind of taken over my life and that conversation, uh, did a number of things for me.

Don Ross Uh, one, uh, it didn't kill me, which is what I thought was gonna happen. You know, I, I really didn't expect to come out on the other side with sanity or reputation or anything intact. Um, but I did, and in fact, my friend was actually really kind and gracious and understanding and, and actually told me like, Hey, you know.

Don Ross Just this week I've talked to a couple [00:13:00] other guys who are dealing with exactly the same thing that you're dealing with. And so for me that was like, uh, I just, I, I didn't understand. I couldn't imagine that kind of like, uh, compassion from him and just, uh, peace, you know, that sort of came over me. Um, that did not like solve my porn addiction overnight, although it did provide me with, uh, a, a real season of freedom.

Don Ross I think for the first time I kind of felt like I had this weight lifted off of my shoulders. And that conversation with him really began sort of, uh, the process for me of saying, okay, there's something to this openness, honesty, vulnerability with other people, with other guys in particular that, uh, I, I need to make a part of my life.

Don Ross Like whatever the pathway to freedom looks like here, it, it's gonna have to include that. And so that's really kind of where I started, was just saying, all right, I, I gotta figure out how to do this. Um, I started having some of those same kind of conversations with other guys. Some of them went well, some of them went not as well.

Don Ross I wouldn't say any of 'em went like terribly. But [00:14:00] some, some people were more understanding than others. Some people were more helpful than others. Um, but all along the way it was helping me. Not only find more freedom from porn, which is what I really wanted, but it was also helping me develop relationships that I was like really enjoying.

Don Ross I was getting closer to these guys who were not just like helping me get free from porn, but like were actually becoming really good friends. I was enjoying spending time with them and we had things in common and we talked about it and it was like life all of a sudden got richer in ways that I wasn't expecting 'cause of how these conversations and these friendships were developing.

Don Ross So it all of that kind of began to, to paint the picture for me of like. You know, I, this is, this is a lifestyle that I want, this is, this is something that is gonna have to be essential for me. And I think it probably is for a lot of other guys as well. We just don't know it yet. And that kind of started me on the journey of, right, what does it look like to have guys in my life where we're having these kinds of conversations regularly, where we're challenging one another to, uh, get better at the things that we want to [00:15:00] get better at, and, uh, and figure out life together.

Don Ross So yeah, that was the initial sort of impetus and then it's been just a long kind of journey ever since then of really figuring out like, hey, what I started to figure out about the whole porn issue was that it was really a manhood issue. Wasn't just like, uh, it wasn't really about sex. It was about like, who am I as a man?

Don Ross Am I actually trying to become who I want to be and, and what am I reaching out for in this porn thing That is really about filling some other holes that I wasn't aware of that I had. And all of that was, uh, related to manhood. And so I started asking some questions about, well, what does it mean to be a man?

Don Ross And I started asking my friends the same thing, and none of us knew we didn't have an answer. Uh, and so, you know, all of that kind of rolled into the same journey of just saying, all right, I need to try to figure out what it is that I'm actually looking for as a man and in trying to be a man, and I need to build some other male friends around me who are wanting to do the same.

Don Ross So, yeah, that, that's kind of where everything began.

Hector What were some of the holes. You had, [00:16:00] what was that process like of filling those holes?

Don Ross Yeah, so, uh, one of my, uh, one of my favorite authors is a guy named John Eldridge. He wrote a book called Wild at Heart, which is a, uh, kind of a famous, you know, guy's book, I think at this point.

Don Ross But he talks about the idea that, uh, he uses this phrase saying that we are wounded in the place of our greatest glory. And what he means by that is that the places of our deepest pain. Uh, blackest shame places that we wanna hide from the world the most because they either the, the, the hurt is the most, or the embarrassment is the most, or whatever.

Don Ross Uh, those are the places where we as men are actually meant to be able to offer something to the world. Like that's where, that's where our, like biggest place of value actually is. Um, and we've been kind of intentionally targeted in those places that our, our wounding doesn't happen by accident. And it actually happens in some really specific places for us.

Don Ross So for me, uh, you know, some of that was [00:17:00] learning to kind of identify the, the messaging that came along came along with some of that wounding related to manhood and porn. 'cause for me, the, the messaging around porn was, you're not a man. Uh, you're some kind of a perverted version of a man. And you're weak because you can't figure out how to get out of this on your own.

Don Ross You know, all of that was kind of wrapped up in my struggle with porn. And so what I had to begin to sort of figure out was like, all right, a. None of that is true. Okay, let's just start with that. None of that is actually true of me. Um, but it feels true. Like there's enough, you know, the best lies have a little bit of truth in them.

Don Ross And when I looked at those lies, I could kind of see like there's something there, like there's some evidence. If I looked at my story, especially as it related to porn, all of that felt true. And if I wanted to find some evidence, I could find some evidence that suggested, yeah, I'm kind of weak. Yeah. You know, I don't really handle, have a handle on my sexuality.

Don Ross This whole like. Porn perversion thing. Like there's something to that. That just wasn't the [00:18:00] whole story. And I, I was, I was making those lies, the whole story about me. And so learning to be able to say, actually, there are some other things about me that really are true. And to come to believe those kinds of truths.

Don Ross So on the, on the flip side of that wounding was not only like, you know, that wounding that was telling me I'm not a man, you know, I'm, I'm some lesser version of a man because I'm perverted, I'm weak, I'm, you know, whatever. Can't figure my shit out. Uh. What, what was on the other side of that was actually like, I am a man.

Don Ross I, I'm a very, like, strong, capable, confident man and I'm meant to be a leader of other men. Like I, I'm meant to help offer to men what this whole idea of manhood is really all about, uh, to help them gain some freedom as well. And so of course that began to make sense. Like that's the, I think the wounding opposite, the glory kind of idea that, that Eldridge is talking about, uh, is being able to say.

Don Ross If that's what I'm meant to offer to the world, then of course it would make [00:19:00] sense that that's where I'm, I'm being taken out. You know, of course that's where those lies are being aimed at for me, is because if I can buy into that cheapened or broken identity, then I don't stand a chance of actually living out the really good purpose in my life that I'm meant for, uh, 'cause I'm gonna be stuck in some really false beliefs about myself.

Don Ross So that for me was, that was, you know, I would say that was kind of the biggie was, was beginning to identify like, yeah, there, there are some holes here and they're there on purpose. And, uh, if I can learn the truth that's actually meant to replace those things, uh, not only do I gain some freedom, but I actually begin to gain some purpose as well.

Don Ross I get a sense of. Who I actually am, who I'm meant to be, what I'm meant to offer to the world. And, uh, man, that's, uh, that's empowering, you know, not just freeing, but empowering.

Hector Yeah. A lot of guys, I think, well there's, there's, there's the shame part, which is its own sort of issue, but I think there's a, they think it's just the sex or the porn.

Hector Like it's, it's like a [00:20:00] isolated, like, like that's the thing. And if they, if they whack-a-mole, that thing, then you know, everything will be good. And in my experience and sort of having these conversations and talking to guys about it, it seems like the, the self- worth part of it is so wrapped up into that, that, that at a certain point that's gonna have to be addressed.

Hector That, you know, e even if, like, that's gonna have to be addressed. And, and if you don't, you know, if you're just looking at it at this superficial kind of surface level, let's not call it a problem. But if you're trying to treat that, that symptom. Then you're gonna actually miss out on the real,

Don Ross you know, the real Yeah, absolutely.

Don Ross I mean, uh, there's, I, I think that's the biggest mistake that men make about porn is that it's a sex issue. Um, and it's like, it isn't not a sex issue, but that's typically like way down on the list of things that it actually is. Uh, it it, it speaks to things that are much, much deeper in a man's heart [00:21:00] than just that.

Don Ross And, uh, I think if we can get to the root of some of those things, that's when we really have a chance of, of gaining freedom and going after the life that we really wanna have.

Hector It seems like there's a, there's a direct connection, you know, and I, I don't know, maybe we lose some of the guys when I get it.

Hector My woo woo hat on. Right. But, but like, you know, your, your root chakra, like your, your bottom of your, your, you know, spinal cord where all your, your sexual organs are, like, that's, that's sort of. Responsible for your, your survival. And I think, I think in a weird way, it also like, if it's not guided the right way, it can get, it can get bottled up, it can get, if, if you're not, you're not finding a way to move from just survival up into, you know, self, self actualization to actually give yourself some direction and some purpose with your life.

Hector All of that energy is just gonna get crowded down there. And then guys are like, you know, I, I need, I need to release this. And it's weird when, when guys, you know, the reasons that guys sort of sort of

[00:22:00] go down that path. It's, um, a lot of times like starts with like boredom or like, it just starts because they're just, they don't have anything to do or they're, or they're sad or depressed.

Hector And, and so it gives them that sort of quick dopamine hit. Um, but, but it all sort of stems from a lack of. Self-worth.

Don Ross Yeah, absolutely. Uh, one of the, one of the things that was helpful for me just on the, the process of, you know, gaining some freedom was an acronym that somebody shared with me called Halts, uh, which stands for hungry, angry, lonely, tired, stressed.

Don Ross And it's like, those are typically all of the things that trigger, uh, you know, in this context it was, you know, looking at porn, but it really could be anything. It could be, you know, alcohol, it could be, uh, sports betting that, you know, that one's becoming even more and more of a problem, I think for guys at this point.

Don Ross Um, but yeah, you know, any, whatever your particular vice is, uh, those are the things that usually trigger it. It's actually not typically about the, the dopamine hit that you [00:23:00] get from whatever feels good about that vice. Uh, it's because you've got these other things going on in your life. You know, the, the negative emotions that we as men, you know, nobody teaches us how to deal with negative emotions.

Don Ross It's basically kind of like from a kid. The only negative emotion that boys are allowed to have is anger. Any other negative emotion needs to either get covered up by anger or covered over by food often. And so, you know, it's kind of like just, you know, find a way to like supplant all of those negative emotions.

Don Ross And then as we get older, you know, uh, the way that we do it is with all of those little dopamine hits, all those vices. Uh, so we just, we aren't paying attention to the things that are under the hood there very well because nobody's taught us to nobody. Nobody teaches men how to do that in our culture anymore.

Don Ross Maybe they never did, but they definitely aren't now. And, and we have way too many ways to be able to try to mask them, uh, in our culture today. And it just, it only leads us into further problems. It doesn't actually solve anything for us or leave us feeling any better.

Hector So you wrote a book. Is this is the, is and I think I cut you off a little bit, is [00:24:00] the book.

Hector Correct me if I'm wrong, right? Am I living in a different universe? You, you did write a book, is that right?

Don Ross Yes.

Hector Yeah.

Don Ross I wrote a book. It's called How to Be a Man.

Hector I'm like, I've, I've am fully, um, imagining that I'm waking up in different realities. But, um, what is, is that a, uh, is that a framework? Is it a recipe?

Hector Is it a blueprint? Like how do you think about, you know, how to be a man? I mean, I think you wrote a book on it. Like what a great, amazing, what's the answer?

Don Ross Yeah. Yeah, so I, I would call it something of kind of like a field guide. Um, so it is, uh, it is, it is intensely practical. Um, it's meant to be very helpful for guys.

Don Ross And so yeah, it does provide some framework. So when I talk about how to be a man, uh, the, the kind of first half of the book starts out by really talking about this framework for manhood. Um, but I call the five marks of manhood. And, uh, it's really just a way to be able to say, I don't think manhood. Uh, we need to, in our culture right now, we need a real, like.

Don Ross Baseline understanding of [00:25:00] manhood. Um, and I think most of the definitions that we get out there are things that are talking more about how to be a good man and not necessarily about being good at being a man. So, you know, more. So what we need is that real baseline idea of what does, what does manhood actually look like?

Don Ross And that's, honestly, that's kind of hard to get at it. It's really hard to kind of wrap your, your hands around that. As you look at culture and history. So anyway, without being like too long-winded about it, I'll just say that what I came up with is, uh, this stuff called the Five Marks of Manhood, which are really just traits.

Don Ross Uh, they are strength, courage, skill, honor, and allegiance. And the basic idea is if you can display those things in your life than you are demonstrating what it means to be a man. And the great thing about them is that you can get better at all five of them. So whatever place of manliness or un manliness you feel like you are at at the moment, you're not stuck there.

Don Ross To be able to [00:26:00] get better at being a man just means growing in each one of those areas. And in the book I actually provide some things that I call manhood challenges. Uh, they're just ways to be able to help you, you know, kind of level up in each of those kind of five categories. And, uh, yeah, how to get better at being a man.

Don Ross So that's kind of the first half of the book. The second half gets more into like how to do being a man with other men, and that's where I talk about kind of my idea of what it means to be a tribe and how all that looks together. But we can talk about that some more too.

Hector Yeah. I love these, these five marks and it reminds me of the, um, one of the first books I read when it came to, you know, this whole man thing.

Hector And it was, it's interesting as I look. Like my, my Kindle and my Audible, I can sort of see my trends of like what I was interested in. And there was this moment, there was this moment when my relationship, my, you know, I haven't talked about this on, on a recording, but I apparently it, it wasn't technically a marriage.

Hector Uh, we had a wedding, but there was no legal documents involved. So someone on the other side of, of the aisle now is getting pretty uppity [00:27:00] about my, um, vocabulary. So, we'll, we'll say it like that. Regardless. When I was in shambles and I was sort of reflecting on it, I looked back and all of my, the books that I had gone were all on parenting and business and, and even health and eating.

Hector And I looked back and I was like, no wonder. You're really like, no wonder. It's like, it's, it's no wonder why you didn't. This went the way that it went. You, you sort of, there was one book at the end which was like, about sex. Like, I was like, okay, like, alright, you missed it, dude. Like totally, totally, totally missed the window there.

Hector And, and the point that I, well I'm going back to this is just like I read, uh, the book, um, king, warrior, magician, love. And are you familiar with that book?

Don Ross Uh, not that one in particular, but I know those archetypes, you know, all the like young philosophy kind of stuff. But yeah,

Hector so it was written, I think in like the nineties is when it came out.

Hector Um, I was, I was shocked at, at seeing when it was originally

[00:28:00] published and I was like, oh, like why didn't anybody say that? This is how to do it like that. This is like, why didn't we get, instead we had, you know, Homer Simpson, Tim, the tool man, Taylor got al. We got, you know, and I've, I've gone on and on about that, that sort of cultural programming that guys get.

Hector But it was when I saw those that I was like, oh, like, okay, maybe I don't have, maybe I'm not a 10 at these right now, but at least here's the criteria. And now that I know the criteria well, well now the game, now I know what the playing, now I know the, the playing field. I know the rules. I know, I know at least what I'm being measured at.

Hector I think so many guys come up. Just not even understanding what really matters, because what it seems is that what culture and society tends to say matters. It's like maybe 70%, I don't know, drop, pick a percentage, but it's like it's not all correct. Right. [00:29:00] There's some of it that's good, but then it's missing a whole part of it that you're talking about.

Hector I wanna play devil's advocate a little bit before we get into the tri part because one of the things that I thought was really good about this, you know, king warrior magician lover thing was talking about. The, let's call 'em the soft skills, right? Things like compassion, things like wisdom and insight, which I think you sort of, you sort of acknowledge with the skill.

Hector Uh, and so I think like that part of it is, is sort of there, but what really took me in the book was the lover part, right? Was the ability to, the, the range that is, is required for that. Whether it's being a, you know, that's from a. Lover as like a significant other, A lover in, you know, a familial part, like a lover, like there, even to a friend, right?

Hector Like it's the ability and the range to access that notion. I think for me it was like, oh yeah, that is part of being a great man [00:30:00] too. It's not all just brutish, you know? Right. How do you speak to that or handle that? Or, or, you know, I don't wanna say combat, but like, how do you approach, you know, and I, that sort of critique or criticism?

Don Ross Yeah. So, uh, I think there's two ways that, that shows up kind of in my framework. One is exactly as you nailed it, it's kind of in the area of skill. Um, I, you know, I love that kind of archetype of the lover. I think most men, uh, come into their own in that category. Through the area of skill. You know, it's like learning how to speak your partner's language, uh, or how to be able to love someone else the way that they want to be loved.

Don Ross Like, those things start as skills. They're not only skills, uh, but I think most men, that's kind of where they start, you know, in terms of being able to figure that out. I think another part of it, uh, the way that that shows up in the five Marks framework is in the area of honor. So honor, the way that I talk about it is really [00:31:00] different than I think how most people talk about honor today.

Don Ross It's, you know, I don't use it as kind of like a, um, a word that means like integrity or trustworthiness or something like that. Honor's actually kind of more of a morally neutral term. That just means you're doing right by the, the close people around you. Um, so what that can mean is that like, if the, if the people closest to you are making really unwise decisions or un good decisions and you're making those same kinds of decisions, then they're probably gonna hold you in high regard because of just, you know, mob group mentality.

Don Ross That's a little bit of what honor means. That like, uh, if you're acting like the people closest to you, they're gonna hold you in high regard because you look very similar to each other. So, in that regard, honor doesn't have to be a good thing. It, it can be a just a, I'm holding in esteem, you know, somebody who's like me, but where it goes well, and I think to your kind of question is to be able to say, uh, if I'm surrounding myself with people [00:32:00] who are trying to uphold a set of values that I want to uphold, like if I, if I look at some other men who are treating their wives well.

Don Ross Who are making a priority of loving their family well, uh, you know, of, uh, of caring well for the important relationships in their lives. Um, if, if I'm, if I'm seeing that as something that I want to value and I'm surrounding myself with men who are doing that, then I am likely to become a man who is doing those things as well.

Don Ross That's the way that honor works. We become like the people who we're closest to. So that's why, you know, that's why it's super important that we as men choose our friends, our close friends in particular, very wisely, is because we're gonna end up emulating them. They're gonna end up emulating us. We become like our tribe, whether we mean to or not.

Don Ross Uh, and so, you know, finding men who are kind of living out that lover phase or stage or archetype like you're talking about. Um, and, and doing it [00:33:00] well is an important part of that.

Hector Yeah. It reminds me of the, one of our first episodes was with Philip Folsom, and he's a great guy and he does leadership training for like companies with like wolves.

Hector He like has like a pack of wolves that he like, does offsites. It's like totally badass. Fucking the cool. It's the coolest job ever. But his, his point though, right, like that it's wrapped up into it, is that there's no lone wolf. Like that, that idea is not, that's not, it's a myth that wolf dies. That wolf is not successful.

Hector That wolf is not thriving.

Don Ross Yeah. The lone, the lone wolf is not a good thing. Yeah.

Hector You know, and um, I saw something on, maybe it was X or Facebook, or, who knows. I saw it on social media and so. Take that with whatever truth it means. And I should have done my research on it before I blasted out here, but I love the idea of it.

Hector And it was essentially the idea of the, uh, the sequoias out, you know, out California. Um, but that [00:34:00] they're these massive, massive trees and that the roots really don't go down too deep. They don't go down too far, but that their roots actually extend really, really far. And apparently. Their roots. And it, it makes sense, and I've heard this a lot with like fungi and stuff, but they actually intertwine and interlink and they actually link up with the other trees and, and they actually share resources and share, you know, and, and so that's how they're able to withstand fires and floods and, you know, droughts and all these sorts of things.

Hector And so it was the, the point of, of the post or whatever they were saying is that, that the, the tree was not. Focused on securing the most resources for itself, but it was actually most interested in how does it become part of this system, this ecosystem, and, and how do you sort of find your pla your thriving place or thriving role within that system.

Don Ross Yeah, exactly. [00:35:00] And I, I think that's, uh, that's so much of what I try to talk about in terms of the idea of tribe. Men are really built for living in something that looks like a tribe. And we don't do that at all in our modern society now, it's become so individualistic. Um, the closest idea that we have to a tribe is what we now call the nuclear family.

Don Ross Um, but it just doesn't do much for the idea of what it means to be a man. And so we, we've, we've lost all sense of manhood as it relates to being a tribe. And, uh, I think that's, that's without a doubt something that in order to be healthy, we as men really have to recover.

Hector Yeah. That's one of the reasons why I fought so hard to stay in the neighborhood that we're in, you know, which is in Orange County and we're in Southern California and it's an otherwise, like a very small county feel, at least in our neighborhood.

Hector I grew up in LA where there was no neighborhood Lee Sense. There was, you know, there was no sense of [00:36:00] neighborliness. And there is here, you know, kids ride around in bikes. They have, you know, a bunch of friends like right here and, and there's this sort of tribe that has that they bought the Springbrook Mafia, right?

Hector It's like this silly little group of, you know, six and 7-year-old kids and their parents. But, but I thought that that was so valuable for my kids to be a part of that. I'm willing. Two, three x rent, what I have to like all of these burdens and hardships and I'm like, okay, now you're just saying, and I'm like, it's affirming and why that's sort of worth it to provide them with this sort of, you know, granted they don't sort of a single parent household, which is even harder.

Hector So it's like to surround them with people that can provide those other qualities or set those other sorts of examples or even just create those other sort of connection relationships. Um. I think is valuable, obviously for a family, but like guys need to go out there and create that for themselves too.

Don Ross Yeah. Well, and I think, I think that's exactly the point there at the end is [00:37:00] that, uh, you know, there, there just isn't a place that that happens for men in our world anymore. And I, I think we get a, I think the way our society is set. Right now kind of dupes men in that way because we go through the school system, right through like high school.

Don Ross And if you go on to college, like even through college where you're surrounded by your peers, you're surrounded by people who are the same age as you, going through all the same things that you're going through at the same time that you're going through them, and then you get into adulthood and all of a sudden it completely changes.

Don Ross You know, adulthood is not like that at all. You're around people who are all different ages, all different stages of life. You don't see them every day. You see them intermittently. You don't, you know, like they're not all going through the same things that you're going through. Your coworkers might be at very different stages of life than you are in dealing with very different struggles.

Don Ross And so it's, it's like, it's completely disorienting and, and super confusing. 'cause what once felt really, really easy as guys, which was to just [00:38:00] have other guys around me doing guy things and enjoying guy friendships. Like all of a sudden that just evaporates. I mean, literally overnight, you know, you get outta col high school or college and it's just gone.

Don Ross Uh, especially if you move from wherever you had been, uh, you lose all of 'em. And so trying to replace that becomes incredibly difficult because there's no. Equivalent structure of any kind, really left in our modern society where men go to just be able to spend time with each other. You know, there used to be, uh, in, in, you know, generations past, we had things like country clubs or barbershops or, you know, men's civic organizations or things like that, that, you know, guys could just hang out and for all kinds of reasons, some good and some not.

Don Ross You know, those things have just sort of disintegrated and so men are left without. Spaces that are just for us as men to be able to connect. And so if we're gonna have that, exactly to your point, we unfortunately have to create it for ourselves. There just isn't anything out there that's gonna [00:39:00] invite us into it.

Don Ross And so we have to be intentional to say, all right, if I want this in my life and I'm recognizing that I need it. Uh, nobody's gonna ask me to be a part of one. You know, like nobody's standing on the corner, you know, uh, after work going, Hey, why don't you come be a part of my tribe? You know, it just doesn't work that way.

Don Ross So if you want that, you, you have to create it, and you have to be the one to say, Hey, I think this is important. Would you come be a part of my tribe? And, uh, and that's really kind of like, that's, you know, what I spend the rest of the book kind of talking about is like, what does it look like to actually do that?

Don Ross How do, how do you create some kind of experience like that? How do you create a group. Where guys can do that together. And, uh, it's, um, it's not easy. Um, it takes intentionality, uh, but I think it's worth it. You know, it, it's worth carving that out and creating that space for other men and for yourself.

Hector Yeah. Is there any, I don't know if mistakes is the right word, pitfalls. You know, sharp corners to think about when guys or someone says, you know what, you're right. I need to [00:40:00] start my tribe. And they're gung-ho. Is there anything you might caution or advise them against or to be mindful of in that process?

Don Ross Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I, I, I would say yes. Uh, and, and I would say mostly it's that, um, every guy is probably bringing something into the tribe that the tribe is not equipped to handle, right? So whether it's, you know, something like my story where it's this deep kind of like porn addiction. Or it is, uh, you know, like failed relationships or failed career dreams, or, you know, something that's just big heavy.

Don Ross It might be some other form of addiction. Um, you know, some other form of loss. Uh, you know, death of a loved one kind of thing. I mean, every guy's carrying something and, and often multiple somethings, um, to where, you know, I, I think most guys, unless they, you know. Have some kind of, uh, degree or career in counseling or mental health [00:41:00] or, you know, something along those lines.

Don Ross Most guys aren't prepared to be able to handle that. And so it's just recognizing that like, that's okay. Like you're not necessarily equipped to be able to handle that, and you don't really have to be, um, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't go after, uh, building a tribe. It doesn't mean that those topics should be off limits to the tribe.

Don Ross It just means being able to say, we may not have all the resources that we need to be able to best meet each other's needs in this environment. That's all right. We don't have to be everything to each other, uh, but we need to be aware of what we can be to each other and be willing to seek outside help in the places where we're, we're not gonna have enough to offer each other.

Don Ross And so that way we're not intimidated by a man's struggles. The struggles are welcome, you know, within the tribe context, but we also can say like. Brother, we're, we're not gonna be enough to really help you. Uh, you know, in all the ways that you need help in this, we'll walk with you. We'll, you know, be the accountability that you need to make the steps that you need to take.

Don Ross But [00:42:00] we're not gonna know the roadmap necessarily, uh, through this situation. And, uh, and that's all right.

Hector But were you surprised about yourself? Or what did you learn about yourself that surprised you? Of writing,

Don Ross in writing the book. I would say what surprised me was that, um, well, I'll say this. What surprised me the most was that writing was fun.

Don Ross Um, I didn't initially set out thinking that it was gonna be that way. I, I wanted to write. Um, but everything I had been told about it was like, writing a book is the hardest thing you'll ever do. It's so laborious. It's such a difficult task, and when it's finally done, you'll be so glad it's done. I actually loved it.

Don Ross I, I really enjoyed everything about the process and would do it all over again, and probably hope to at some point. But that's maybe not exactly what you're asking, but uh, but that was a big surprise I would say, when I think about, like, what surprised me was, um, gosh, probably just the amount of stories that I was able to come up with of both in my own life and in [00:43:00] other men's lives of how I had seen these things play out and be true that the things that I were talking about.

Don Ross Were not only helpful to me, but were far more universal than I even thought that they would be. And, and, you know, of course I hoped they would be a little bit, otherwise I, you know, what's the point of writing a book if it's not, you know, generally for lots of other people. Um, but, uh, it, it just really kind of helped me to tap into the fact that like, yeah, this is a, this is a season in our world and in our culture where, um, men are just, we're just kind of a drip at the moment.

Don Ross And, uh, and we need some help and that's not a bad thing that we do. Um, but uh, it was good for me to be able to see like the value of what I was doing and, and how it could really be helpful for other men. So yeah, that was, that was more of a surprise than I expected It.

Hector Love it. Uh, why don't you tell people where they can find when they might be able to find and expect the book?

Hector Yeah. And if you got any other social, social medias or websites that people follow up or stay connected. [00:44:00]

Don Ross Uh, the book is out now, so you can find it on Amazon if you want to. How to Be a Man by Don Ross. Um, and I would say if, like anything from this conversation has kind of struck a chord with you in terms of.

Don Ross I can resonate to being that guy who is dealing with something that feels like it's more than I know how to handle, or a battle I don't quite know how to fight. I'd love to offer to your audience kind of a, a free guide that I've put together that's just called Pathway to Freedom, and it's really about what are the first steps that you can take to be able to help address the lies, the addictions, the, you know, whatever pit you kind of find yourself in and begin to find a way out of that.

Don Ross So. You can go to manhood tribes.com/freedom and download that free guide right there, manhood tribes.com/freedom and, uh, that'll help get you started. And it also is kind of a gateway into, if you're interested in working with me and finding more out about the coaching that I do, um, there's some information there to help you get started.

Hector We'll link all that in the show notes as always. [00:45:00] And, uh, last question for you, Don. In your opinion, what is the definition of modern masculinity?

Don Ross Yeah, I, I mean, you know, kind of as I said it, as it relates to the five marks of manhood, and I think modern masculinity is really like possessing those traits and demonstrating them so that others understand that you are a man and then striving to get better at each of them.