Parenthood, Layers of Rage, and Self-Love with Matthew Sloane

[00:00:00] Hector: Fellas, what's going on? I hope this episode finds you well and I hope this episode leaves you better than when it found you. And today's episode is with Matthew Sloan and he's an author who wrote a book about compassion. And at least for me, when I think about the traditional values or things that men had, right?

[00:00:57] Hector: That the people thought of men and that exemplified men. Compassion might not be at the top of the list, but as I think about where our world is going and where we need to go and the sort of leadership that this world that our family that ourselves need i think compassion is is at the top of that list and uh so today's an interesting conversation and you know you start to look at some of the themes that are going on in the show and some of the themes that are happening in a broader sense and in the world and society and i really think that these conversations can be the bridge to whatever is next so appreciate you being here.

[00:01:39] Hector: Let's get into today's conversation with Matthew Slone.

[00:01:43] Hector: Matt, welcome to the Modern Masculinity podcast. Thanks for being here.

[00:01:47] Matthew: Yeah, thanks, Hector. It's good to be with you.

[00:01:49] Hector: I should have asked. we met briefly and we were introduced by a good friend, Ken and, friend of the show, former guest and, is Matt okay? Or, you know, one of my best friends and maybe he's listening out there, his name is Tommy and people always ask them like, so when are you going to stop being called?

[00:02:05] Hector: Tommy, you know, when are you going to go to Tom or I don't know, whatever someone goes to when they move from Johnny to John or, or whatever. So anyways, maybe that's relevant to today's conversation. Maybe it's

[00:02:18] Matthew: It might be. Matt is what I think of when my parents say my name.

[00:02:22] Hector: Yeah. So. the reminiscence of your parents is, is the universe calling something here into this conversation. So take us into your world though. And one thing that we always ask our guests is to sort of level the playing field, because no matter where someone's at in life, whether it's in an age or in their career or in, whatever sort of, journey guys have been on.

[00:02:45] Hector: There's still work to be done. there's still challenges that we're going through as a man, as a brother, a husband, a partner, a father, all the role, like all the roles that we as men have to play. what sort of challenges or obstacles or are you currently working through?

[00:03:01] Matthew: Yeah. I mean, I'm happy to share. I think it's really important to talk about this stuff, so I appreciate you holding space for the conversation. for me at home, I have a wife of, over, we're past, 10 years now, which is a big milestone for us. I have two small kids. One is four years old. The other is seven and challenge wise.

[00:03:24] Matthew: there's a daily struggle of because I'm a fairly sensitive person. I pick up on the energy of my kids when they're off balance. And I find myself either falling into. My own dysregulation or working really hard to stick to my values and be Present to them instead of just reactive So that is a constant daily challenge that sometimes I would say it's 50 50.

[00:03:57] Matthew: Sometimes I fall into Worst case I fall into the role of the tyrant and then I feel shitty about it and I apologize to them And other times I hold a good boundary and i'm loving with them And i'm holding that I'm holding myself from going over the edge into something that I'll regret.

[00:04:17] Hector: Yeah, this idea of I don't know if you use the word, but the idea of being sensitive, is got that a lot growing up. Oh, you're so sensitive. it was usually used in a negative connotation where, as I'm thinking about it, it was essentially someone wasn't respecting my boundary.

[00:04:35] Hector: I sort of felt a way about it. And then I was being told to not feel a way about, about said boundary. Is, is really what it was, but this idea of being sensitive and the other side of it was, I grew up in a very sort of machismo family culture. it was Mexican American, it was low riders and cholos and That was the norm, you know, that was, and, and so the idea of being sensitive in a culture in an environment like that was, it was dangerous, frankly, you know, and so you have this. Dynamic as a guy where you have these things going on inside you that you can't really tell anybody about no one really, maybe they understand, but you can't talk about it.

[00:05:25] Hector: And so we kind of, we grow up and now we're 30 something. We're 40 something year olds. And we have the same sort of things that are happening, except to your point, have, Other human beings that we're responsible for, and we've got, adult responsibilities all these things that we have to, still do whilst that internal conflict is running around in our head.

[00:05:47] Matthew: Yeah. I know that conflicts firsthand. I do use the word sensitivity for myself, I'm sure I had the same experience as you. I don't know if I got the word thrown back at me, but I certainly got the impression that people felt I took things personally. Which I did, that wasn't okay.

[00:06:07] Matthew: that's the part that I've had to shift my own framing around. Like the fall, falling into taking things personally doesn't help me. It's not healthy for me. But there's something there where I'm deeply feeling. And deeply feeling is okay.

[00:06:24] Hector: Yeah, one of the things that I working through is the acceptance of my anger. that was never, or of that hurt, or, going back to these, this sort of boundary thing, my boundaries were never really, respected growing up. I had a huge family.

[00:06:41] Hector: we lived with a bunch of people, like physically boundaries were not really respected. And then all of a sudden I was the youngest kid, with a bunch of older cousins. And so it was just. You know, boundary, I was essentially learned that the way I felt about my boundaries didn't matter.

[00:06:59] Matthew: Right.

[00:07:00] Hector: And I take that into my marriage and I take that into my work and I take that into my whatever and it carried those same sort of things. And so I had to start to realize that recent and it's real, it's like within the last couple of months, since my marriage has sort of dissolved and kind of gone the way of like, Now, when I get angry in something, instead of going, Oh, I need to not be angry at my wife, it's like, wait a minute.

[00:07:23] Hector: Why, why am I getting angry? Oh, yeah. There's this boundary that's not being respected. and you're just, you're punishing yourself for, you're going into this loop, this like this programming where we punish ourself and beat ourself up. and the other person doesn't even have to do that.

[00:07:40] Hector: Yeah. They didn't like we do it, we do it to ourselves. You know, they, overstepped the boundary and then we disrespect ourselves again by not, I guess, I don't know, listening or, or not, respecting our own selves,

[00:07:53] Matthew: Yeah, I can totally relate to that, Hector. anger for me is, it's like been a lightning rod of danger. All my life, like I've just found so many ways to stay away from my anger and I did a really good job of staying away from anger for most of my life until I had kids and now it's like I'm in that cauldron with them where they will do what they do and whatever the reason it irks me, it gets me so frustrated and that like rage is like so nearby and it's like shit.

[00:08:27] Matthew: I know parenthood is an opportunity for personal development. I didn't expect that I would have rage beyond just a feeling, but that I would be reactive. In such an angry way It's such a shock and there's so much Because of my identity thinking of myself as like generally a nice easygoing guy It's like that's not true.

[00:08:52] Matthew: I mean I am that at times but it's not really who I am anymore So there's a combination of when I feel anger. I feel angry about The anger, I don't want it, and then I feel shame about it at the same time. So that's the inner conflict that I experience when anger arises in me.

[00:09:09] Hector: Yeah, I remember there was a time when the kids were about two and three and I had the same thing. It was, and it was a, Perfect storm. It was lack of sleep. It was the marriage was starting to break down. It was, money, like, it was just everything, stress, what, like all, all the things sort of happening.

[00:09:33] Hector: and similarly, I remember thinking, like, I had no idea I was this angry. I've, I've always been the even keeled the keep it locked up, keep it tight. And really what, and looking back on it is it was just suppression of suppression and after suppression. And I've likened it. And I've, said it a lot of times on the shows and listeners like, here we go again, but I've likened it to like, clay, That just gets slathered on top of each other, and it gets beaten down and beaten down. And there's these layers and layers that get caked up. And the challenge is, is that when you start to do this work, at least in my experience, what I found is that I thought I was going to go and getting in touch with my emotions and being more joyful and being more great.

[00:10:16] Hector: You know, I was going to have all these happy emotions come up. what I actually had to go through at first was I had to dig through all of the anger and all of the hurt and all, all of that stuff that was kind of locked up behind that in order to, Be able to reach some of those, you know, better or more enjoyable emotions again, but it was just because of my lack of willingness to, to experience that anger or sadness that, that caused that, stifling, if you will.

[00:10:46] Matthew: Yeah, I want to tell you a story. this is more about my relationship with my wife before kids. But I think it gets to what you're speaking to about what's beneath a feeling. So she went on a trip, she came back, she told me about an experience she had that was as if it felt as if I was betrayed.

[00:11:07] Matthew: She didn't actually do anything, but I felt betrayed. I was jealous. I felt ashamed of my, inability to turn her on there's all this stuff there for me And I went into a deep despair for about three days and one of those days I cried so hard I remember I can Remember the image of the red rug that I was staring at for about three hours and at some point I had already been in a men's group at that time, so at some point I realized I had said a long time ago, one of the things I want in my life because I experienced myself is so like wooden and devoid of feeling is I want to feel more.

[00:11:48] Matthew: And I had this weird realization in the middle of this pit of shame. I was like, Oh my God, I feel so alive right now. Like all this, whatever I call this energy, this is aliveness. And I wouldn't say I felt joy right on the other side of that, but I felt something that was like a love, like a self love in the midst of all that.

[00:12:10] Matthew: And it was one of the things that carried me through that experience.

[00:12:14] Hector: Yeah, I had something, it's fucked up, right? It's like the fuck, this is what you asked For me, it's like, I have this wanting to learn and experience. Life, right? And it's like, here it is. This is, this is it. think about the quintessential sort of human, not the quintessential, but maybe it's top three or top four is like heartbreak, Is like this evolution of, madly in love and then heartbreak. That's like, you know, Romeo and Juliet, like the whole thing, right. It, you know, rising arc, falling arc, it's that sort of stuff. And so for me to go, Oh yeah, you're going to escape life without going through this.

[00:12:55] Hector: This. Core thing that has been, written about and poets and stories and, and all the sorts of things to just, the word is devoid, but I don't think that's the right word to exclude yourself from that experience is preventing you from, from the fullness of life. And, and perhaps that's just my rationalization, you know, trying to bring some peace to my situation, but it has.

[00:13:20] Hector: Brought that, the other thing, and it's like people could play, uh, a drinking game on this show with like, every time I bring up the same thing, because the other one that comes up a lot is the inside out and I haven't seen the second one yet, but the, on the first one there, yeah, yeah, the, yeah, the movie in the, in the first one, there's this moment where sadness, you know, the character sadness

[00:13:42] Hector: is sitting with bing bong and he just, it was a really huge moment for me because she just like sits with him in that moment. And then he gets up and he's like, okay, I'm good. And it's like, and it was so for me, I'm a 32 year old, man, and I'm watching with my kids and they're still, hopefully they're getting some of them, but I'm learning stuff all every time I watch it.

[00:14:04] Hector: And I think back to that all the time, because for me, so much of what I did. All the way up until months ago was the moment I got sad, I would run to something else I would run to anger, I would use anger as a protection I would, run, I would cope with, porn or I would cope with weed or I would cope with, I would cope with whatever, I would just, I was sad.

[00:14:29] Hector: Okay, let me not be sad, not realizing that, sad, you know, that builds up, And it's in there and it going to stick around until it comes out or until it's, it's sort of dealt with. and the other day, I was in a, I think it was in a breathwork session. I don't know how it came to me, but, but one thing that's emerged over the last several days is that like beneath sadness is strength.

[00:14:52] Hector: That like, if you want to, if you want to get to the strength in the situation, then that you have to sit in that sadness and it's that willingness to be there in that sadness that, that provides the strength upon which to move forward, at least for me and, you know, internally, and the, unwillingness to be in that, Uncomfortable emotion seems to not, I don't know if it's the opposite, but it doesn't help.

[00:15:17] Hector: it doesn't create strength to cope or to suppress or to run away. You know, whereas standing in the fire, facing it, It provides, at least for me, you know, provides something to stand upon.

[00:15:31] Matthew: Yeah. I completely relate to all that. one of the things I'm becoming more aware of, and I'm 50 years old, I've been learning about this since I was in my late 30s. That's when I kind of got into men's work and started looking at more of these relational dynamics. The way that I relate to my own emotions is the way I relate to other people's emotions.

[00:15:53] Matthew: So I, you know, if my wife gets mad and I think it's directed at me, then I want to do the same thing I noticed to her emotions that I do to myself. I want to make it wrong. I want to go away. as much as my learning is about my own health, me and my emotions. I think it's also about how am I going to be in this world in relation to other people?

[00:16:15] Matthew: Because all that stuff that to me is a version of inside out. The way I relate to my emotions is the way I relate to other people and their emotions. And with kids, it's like, right in my face.

[00:16:27] Hector: Well, I think part of the issue is like circling back to what we talked about beginning is that guys, I explained my example, which is very specific set of circumstances, but I would say most guys haven't felt free to express themselves emotionally or don't know what that looks like or don't know what there isn't a healthy relationship to emotions, A, I think, period.

[00:16:51] Hector: And then also, for guys, there's the, it's okay, and I don't want to say it's okay for women to be emotional, but it's like, we accept it, We build it into the equation, you know, it is, it is, it's assumed it's accepted. and also is it well held against them?

[00:17:08] Hector: Like, I don't know, but it's part of the equation. Whereas on the other side of it, for us to have an emotional world, part of it. Has not really seemed to be, doesn't seem to be accepted quite yet, for a guy to have an emotional world or for a guy to be if people always say, Oh, you're so you seem to have like, thought a lot about, you know, what's going on.

[00:17:31] Hector: I'm like, do you not think about your. Like, do you not have world, you know, and I think that some people are so wrapped up in social media and whatever, and this external world that may be the case. But I also think it hasn't been, safe for guys to, it hasn't been safe for guys to share what that is and, how twisted and dark and weird it might be, and, and also how. Normal and regular that also is as well, Because we're not sharing it. There's all this shame that we carry around with it as well.

[00:18:08] Matthew: Yeah. It's the weirdest. when I got into men's work in a men's group, I was in that period of like, I'm not going to say a thing until I understand that this is actually a safe place. Like, I'm going to listen for the first several weeks for other people to share and see what they do and see what the rules are and what the boundaries are before I take any risks.

[00:18:28] Matthew: And then of course, eventually when I was hearing and sharing, it's like, we're all saying the same things.

[00:18:34] Hector: Yeah, I'm the opposite. Now I'm like, I go deep and then that way anybody who comes back, they know that this is, they're like, Whoa, that was, that guy got deep quick. Like that is not, I'm not ready for that. those guys. they kind of weed themselves out, but I think it's the same thing, You know, there's the same sort of thing going on there.

[00:18:53] Matthew: it's, I think it's good in a way to test people that way and to test ourselves. you know, if I think of it as being vulnerable, there's that balance of like, it takes courage to be vulnerable. And then it also takes a kind of wisdom to know the timing of it.

[00:19:09] Hector: I heard it, used as a verb. I think they used it as like, he rabbited himself.

[00:19:14] Matthew: Oh, what does that

[00:19:15] Hector: don't know if you've, if you've seen the movie Eight Mile with, uh, Eminem. So in the movie 8 Mile, Eminem, there's a famous scene at the end where he's in a rat battle and basically he comes out and he throws all of his dirt just on, you know, he just exposes everything.

[00:19:31] Hector: He pulls out all of everything out of his closet. So essentially, His opponent has nothing, has nothing to say. There's nothing that you can hold over this person's head. Cause he just said it himself and, and he left his opponent speechless. The crowd goes wild, you know, and the movie gets the girl wins the thing, like the whole thing.

[00:19:51] Hector: Right. But it's, it was this really sort of, you know, again, profound moment. And I've kind of taken away from that too, because it's like, I'm going to share this with you. And it's like, How are you going to, if I'm willing to share these things, how are you going to hurt me? what can you say or do if I'm willing to acknowledge the truth of these circumstances,

[00:20:12] Matthew: Yeah, other than kick you out of the tribe, you know, in that old sense that what if everyone rejects me and I have no one to be with that's so old and

[00:20:21] Hector: well, yeah, I think there is that fear. There's probably something to be said about the work that's necessary to find the right spaces in which these things can come out.

[00:20:31] Hector: And I guess I'm assuming that I'm going to these spaces and I'm. Oftentimes creating these spaces or, I'm doing my due diligence and kind of finding the right spaces or, you know, whatever that may be. but I think that's important as well, because I've noticed that in sharing those things that would otherwise be shameful, it actually strengthens community more

[00:20:57] Matthew: yeah,

[00:20:57] Hector: if in the right.

[00:20:58] Hector: context right within the right space and if those people are are the right sort of people that opens the door for connection it opens the door for compassion and empathy and all the things that are necessary for relationships to really thrive and so I think that that's also why I do it, know, specifically in spaces that I create is because it's like, we're gonna go straight to what matters here and that it's not the superficial stuff.

[00:21:23] Matthew: yeah, I would believe as it was true for me that, there's a hunger for that, it may not be so known. if I'm an individual who had never done Men's work or any kind of personal development and suddenly I'm in a group of people and someone says hey Let's talk about the thing. That is our biggest challenge as a man right now Then I'm going to be like, I'm going to wait a minute.

[00:21:45] Matthew: Like, are you serious? Are we going to do this? so I'm sure that you're holding a space that creates some kind of intention and safety that invites people into that. And I really, I have so much compassion for that edge for people, because it can be really scary to cross that line with anyone, even in Well, I think it's hard to cross that line with ourselves even, I get into a breathwork session and like the music starts to play. I'm like, fuck, I don't want to do that. Like, I can feel my like anxiety and hesitation of like, not wanting to go into the uncomfortable.

[00:22:19] Hector: Right. and I think that there's a certain level of. ignorance is bliss that kind of comes along with just being a part of this, I don't know, call it the matrix or whatever, where you just carry along as if just carry along as if, and, and I think that a lot of guys, I was forced into that sort of thing where I realized had my marriage not fallen apart, had things not gone the way that they would have, I probably would have just. Coasted into whateverness, know, and into mediocrity, frankly, and into, would never would have found men's work. I never would have started to ask them these questions that for me, I'm like, how could I ever have gone without asking them? How could I ever have, gone without doing this work?

[00:23:07] Hector: how could I have ever gone without unlocking this anger and getting rid of it? You know, it was not that it was the, Determining part of our sort of relationship going the way that it went, but it was my, I dealt with anger and my suppressed anger didn't help for sure.

[00:23:23] Hector: was not helping the situation, you know, in the moment. And so I think all of that to say that there's so many, there's so many gates, if you will, that we have to go through and maybe there's not so many, but there is a number of gates that guys have to get through in order to feel comfortable and hopefully.

[00:23:39] Hector: Yeah. Shows like these and men's groups and things of the like are opening that door or that possibility more.

[00:23:45] Matthew: Yeah. I feel they are. I mean, I've seen it in, if I think of like, what are the signs of positivity around this trajectory of men and models for men that show something? Different. certainly many conversations like this are happening. There is when I think of, even some of the ways that Hollywood for all its mainstream fallbacks, there are times when there are men in conversation in a movie or a TV show where there are actually a woman involved.

[00:24:18] Matthew: Like having adult mature conversations, they're showing a kind of love for each other. That is brotherly love. so there's that. And then there's also this feels so organic, you know, if we were talking about like, how are men going to change? there's so many things happening at the same time between the things distracting us, which are always available.

[00:24:39] Matthew: And then these little conversations, have you heard of The hundred it's either the hundredth or the hundred monkey syndrome or something like that The idea, so there was this island and these people discovered the island with some monkeys on it and they started researching the monkeys and they found another island with this kind of monkey on one of the islands, one monkey picks up a coconut shell and starts using it to drink water out of it's like, Oh, cool.

[00:25:07] Matthew: There's this kind of a new tool for them miles away about like a week later. The other island starts doing the same thing. And so the idea is that like, somehow we're connected, like you and I are connected, all men are connected, all humans are connected, all life is connected, the more any of us do our work, even if it's in private, even if with a group over here that never talks to the rest of the world, we're adding something to the overall potential vibe.

[00:25:33] Matthew: Let's say.

[00:25:34] Hector: I forget that's not like common knowledge. I grew up Catholic and so much of that, I was just arguing with my grandma with this about a couple weeks ago. so much of that belief system is the separateness between it. The separateness, right, of everything. it's very, God is outside you.

[00:25:54] Hector: People are different. they're going to hell. You're going at like, you need to make sure you go to heaven, there's a very separateness. It reminds me that not everybody, realizes that we are all connected. I mean, I, I just realized like I'll come out of powerful meditation sessions and I'll get three or four text messages and people saying like, Hey, I was just thinking about you.

[00:26:14] Hector: know, like I can't, that happens often, frequently. And, yeah, you say, of course, and for me, I'm like, yeah, it is I'm like, oh yeah, that's how it works. so, It is important for us to be having these conversations. I'm curious for you. you have a book that's coming out

[00:26:33] Matthew: Mhm.

[00:26:34] Hector: an early look at it and before I share what I think about it, I'm curious what, when you shared it with other people, what are their, because it seems like a very personal book, like I would imagine that is something that is deeply personal.

[00:26:50] Hector: what are their thoughts about, or what do they think when you show them? and maybe, maybe it's like, you've shown somebody who's not of this world or not in the men's work space or not of, you know, what are they sort of thinking about the work that you're putting out?

[00:27:04] Matthew: Yeah. So I have sort of, let's say there would be three data points. there's the people who give me feedback. They say something. There's the people who show me in some way or another that They don't want to say anything. And then there's the people I just haven't asked. so the feedback I generally get is from people who are feeling positive that they have just experienced me in a new way.

[00:27:28] Matthew: They know me more deeply if they already knew me, they feel like. There's a depth that they're not used to coming from a man around his inner experience. They are delighted by the mix of imagery and words because I know for me, I've always been an artist, a lot comes out through my drawing that I create.

[00:27:50] Matthew: Can't always put into words. and often people are left with a sense of either if they're not a man appreciating men more feeling like, Oh, this, this is actually what it's like to be manned. And it goes so deep that I, as a woman can relate on a human level to a lot of these things that get shared. And then for the men to say, Oh, my God, thank God that.

[00:28:14] Matthew: Either i'm not the only one or if someone is Already a track of men's work or personal development. Who's a man? just this kind of like feeling of validation It was like oh i'm just i've deepened my self love. I've deepened my self compassion through the experience of this work that's the general kind of feedback other than the people who i'm sure my father in law will never hear this podcast.

[00:28:37] Matthew: He's like, I know he doesn't like it, but he likes me And There's kind of a shutdown ness. I'm sure a lot of people who are not open are just gonna, it won't even come near them. If someone gave it to them, they wouldn't even open it. Or if they took a first look, it'd be like, eh, that's not really for me.

[00:28:54] Matthew: I'm sure there'll be plenty of that too.

[00:28:56] Hector: I was curious about that because you said that there was a second group of people who said that they, you know, they didn't want to say like, What do you think that is?

[00:29:04] Matthew: I think it's what I experienced a long time ago. It's like if someone were to invite me When I was, let's say, 30 or younger, if someone had invited me into an emotionally rich conversation where I was invited to reveal myself, they were going to reveal themselves, like I probably would have shut down in some way.

[00:29:23] Matthew: I could have gone foggy. I might have just been like, no, I got to do. I would redirect myself somewhere else. Like I could totally imagine that because I've been there before.

[00:29:32] Hector: Yeah. Again, reminds me that people always say to me, they're like, wow, you're willing to go deep, like quickly. And I'm like, I guess in my head, I'm like, what are we doing here? does anybody actually enjoy talking about the weather or sports? Like, did you, are there people out there who you're genuinely curious?

[00:29:51] Hector: Like, so for me, uh, I have to remind myself that once again, not, not everybody, is in this work or, or I think I have some, I'm using this word loosely, but some sadistic sort of like, drawing to like the spiritual, I think it's a sort of a spiritual evolution, if you will, in the sense of, there's a deep compellingness to like figure this out. , I don't get too metaphysical on this show as often as I probably as people as I am, but The fact that we were born in this time and we're, I don't want to say forced, but we're actually given the opportunity to be a man in this time is a very, it's a unique thing because prior to this time, it was very clear What it was to be a man and also, I don't think there was open to any interpretation and it wasn't, there was no creativity necessary that was allowed or, or, you know, there was no space necessarily allowed in that interpretation.

[00:30:53] Hector: and today. we are given all of that space and with it also comes a unique set of challenges to, and, a unique set of circumstances that we're forced to deal with. Nor

[00:31:04] Matthew: Yeah. It makes me think of what Women have gone through a few decades before where, you know, eventually a wider part of our culture is saying yes, women can go to work. Yes, women can exceed at work, but that doesn't mean they could right away because there's still all the old baggage that they carried about being told no, no, no, being told you're not smart, being told it's not safe to be smart in front of men, like all those things just because the door opens doesn't mean I'm able to go through it.

[00:31:35] Matthew: I still have so much stuff that I'm carrying and I think same thing is happening for men.

[00:31:40] Hector: should you, I mean, it's a great point, nor, nor should you go through it necessarily, But, but at least the door is open. And I think that's what's becoming powerful is that we are having the chance to have those opportunities and make those decisions.

[00:31:54] Matthew: Can I add to the metaphysical? there's a book. Have you heard of a book called Journey of Souls?

[00:32:00] Hector: Uh, no, I, didn't want to go there necessarily, but since you're going there, please tell me about it.

[00:32:05] Matthew: I'll say this. So the, Author is a, he was a therapist. He got into hypnotherapy. He took people into regressive states earlier in their life, childhood, and then went into past lives and eventually found himself finding patterns among thousands of people with in between life experiences, and he put the patterns together and it resonated so deeply with me when I read it, it's a framework for me.

[00:32:31] Matthew: Like I think of mythology or religion is a framework of how do I make it. Peace with the challenges of a human experience and the framework he was offering was we are all souls and we have, this learning to be done and in between lives, we do our own kind of learning. And then we go back into a physical.

[00:32:51] Matthew: Manifestation human or otherwise, and in that time, we've, you know, it's this stuff we've heard before. If we've looked at this, like, we forget all this stuff when you embody in a human experience, but your soul is always with you and knows. And so when I think of, Why am I here at this time? There's a purpose that gets live in depth for me when I think of that frame, because I think, well, yeah, I know a part of me chose this as we were saying before, not just because I'm human, but because there's a bigger part of me.

[00:33:21] Matthew: There's a bigger energy I carry around that will always exist even after I die. And it doesn't mean I'm not afraid of death. I am, but it means there's something happening here. That's bigger than my thoughts, bigger than this emotional experience. And encompasses all that as well.

[00:33:38] Hector: Yeah, and I'm questioning, like, why am I straying away from the metaphysical here? if you made it this far, like you're, either one of us or you just listening to this fall asleep, but that's okay. Either way. we're happy to have you because I think that this whole soul thing, once again, to me, I forget that I'm like, oh, that makes sense.

[00:33:56] Hector: Like, Let's take a step back. you know, I'd mentioned that I did, I did 16 years of Catholic school. I think I'm one of the few people to do 16 years of Catholic, actually 17, if you count kindergarten, 17 years of, Catholic school. so I told my grandma, I'm like, you guys had your shot. You blew it.

[00:34:14] Hector: Yeah. You missed. Yeah. You missed. But one of the things that I've, my journey was I was in it. I remember in, in sixth grade, I told my mom, I was like, we got to go to church every weekend. and if I'm being honest, it was because, I won't say her name. I was about to say name. It was because my eighth grade crush was going to church and her mom made her go to church every day.

[00:34:33] Hector: And so it was my opportunity to see her on the weekend. And so it was like a chance that I had to take, but in doing that, I sort of like drank the Kool Aid a little bit. and, you know, I'm, I don't know what I'm 12 at that time. So it's super impressionable and kind of drink the Kool Aid and all sorts of things happen.

[00:34:49] Hector: And over the next several years, the priests and their, sexual assaults and all of like all the misconduct and all the sorts of things come out about the church. It was like, as if I'm being like loose, it felt like a betrayal, right. But like on it, like there was a loss of trust. I'm like, I can't trust any of this. I threw like all of that. I'm like, all of that's bullshit. Then it's all bullshit. we're just here on this rock.

[00:35:12] Hector: It's spinning, you know, like I went super. You know, materialistic or just I guess both in my sort of lifestyle, but also in my sort of beliefs and life sort of like brought me back the, the other way. And there was a long series of unexplainable events that showed me that was not the case.

[00:35:30] Hector: so now I'm trying to, now I'm starting to realize that going back to the, the reason I brought it up, the Catholic thing is like, oh, there were bits and pieces of that. Yeah. Existence a large pieces of that that were right. and there was a lot of stuff they got caricature eyes and there was stuff that got distorted and stuff.

[00:35:49] Hector: But there was a lot of stuff that they got right and to, to throw the baby out with the bath water was doing me a disservice and what's kind of nice is you talk about mythology and you talk about these concepts. you know, soul you know, it's like. Oh, I. I kind of have a frame of reference, like I don't, I don't have to start from scratch necessarily in my understanding of these things.

[00:36:09] Hector: And it allows me to approach today and moving forward with some sort of direction, or at least I'm able to give, purpose to, those times and to those learnings, or instead of it being like, Oh, that was a fucking waste of my life.

[00:36:24] Hector: So those are some of the things that, that I think came up as you're talking about, other people being unwilling to kind of go there, It's sort of, you see that separateness, as I think what, what brought it back is like, they, they see separateness and thus it doesn't allow them to kind of hold that compassion.

[00:36:40] Hector: I

[00:36:41] Matthew: And I appreciate, what you said before about nor should someone have to feel compelled to go through an open door. There's something about, you know, if I have a belief system, It's just mine. It's just my son of like self care method. so, you know, for anyone listening, I mean, I hope people get to feel open and explore things, but I would never assume that my way is going to work for anyone, you know, whether it's Catholicism or this journey of souls framework, there's lots of frameworks.

[00:37:12] Matthew: I think it's worth finding a framework that allows any of us to live with a little less fear. Live with a little more courage and feeling like we're connected to something greater than just this Physical meat stick of a body.

[00:37:30] Hector: took a. it was in Catholic schools, my senior year of high school, I took a class called world religions and it was taught by a wise man. I believe he was even a shaman for a period of his life named Mr. Weisskopf and, to take you into his class at one point, he took a kid up and he broke this kid's chakras is essentially what he said and the kid, you know, was, Was kind of the class clown, you know, like was just kind of joking around fine.

[00:38:00] Hector: I'll go up there, like, see what you do your magic trick on me. And he went cold, pale. And like, he's like, when he's like something had like, that was a pivotal day in that kid's life. he actually just became a millionaire like two, a few weeks ago. I mean, anyways, so that's the type of stuff that was going on in that class.

[00:38:20] Hector: But. What it made me realize is we were studying Hinduism, we were studying Daoism, we were studying Buddhism, and we were studying, Native American sort of beliefs, and I'm like, at a certain point I said, wait a minute, they're all fucking saying the same thing. Like they're all saying the same thing, but I also came up, but, and there was a, there was this, cognitive dissonance that in my head, because I'm going to a Catholic school and I'm also saying, but you're saying if they believe this, they're going to hell.

[00:38:51] Hector: How do we reconcile that? Like, that doesn't make any, it doesn't make any sense because they don't come to this building on a Sunday and eat this bread. They can't, they're like forever. Damn. To hell, like make it make sense.

[00:39:06] Matthew: Yeah, yeah, I don't believe in the concept of hell personally. I I think we have enough of the hell experience here that we don't really need another place.

[00:39:15] Hector: Yeah. And we'll see it once again, the separateness thing, I think the, thing that I've learned is, is, but heaven and hell can be wherever you are, you can, that we create our own hells and also we have the power to, create heaven on earth. with our own self first.

[00:39:34] Hector: once again, not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Cause I'm like, Oh yeah, Jesus said something like that. You know? So, going back to, the book, because opened it and I got a chance to see it.

[00:39:46] Hector: Digitally and on my phone. And I got to imagine that having it on like your table or, you know, having it in front of you in a book sort of, hardcover or paper, like that's got to be a different sort of experience. Because the first thing that stood out to me was the images. And I was like, like, it was kind of scary.

[00:40:03] Matthew: Mm

[00:40:04] Hector: And also, what was interesting is, as I read the other side, I was like, Oh, this it's because being a man is scary, like inside our world is, is can be dark, can be weird, can be distorted, can be, you know, it can be all of those things and, to, illustrate it as if it's some Dr.

[00:40:28] Hector: Seuss, sort of thing wouldn't be doing, it would be doing, Men a disservice in terms of the reality of what it's like and not to take anything away from women, But I think you did a great job of capturing that and not not just a bad part of it, but capturing that darkness, both in its good and in its you know, in its dark.

[00:40:48] Matthew: hmm. Thank you. Yeah, it was wild, Hector, because the creative process, I had a loose sense of where I was going with it. All the illustrations happened before the writing. And so they really drove the tone and then the writing, I think, complimented. Mm hmm. hmm.

[00:41:07] Hector: I mean, I think what's nice about it is that, in the same way that having a conversation with the guy about it. Yeah. Shameful experiences opens the door to, oh, you're not that different from me, In the same way that it does that your book kind of opens that door for someone who maybe doesn't have someone that they can be vulnerable with and they can say, oh, this is.

[00:41:32] Hector: Like, them too. they feel this way too. I thought I was the only one that had fucked up thoughts. I was the, I thought I was the only one that, thought this way or believe these things or treat it, you know, talk to myself like this and instead, it creates this opportunity for them to, be in solidarity, men and I think, people as a whole.

[00:41:54] Hector: And so I think he'd done a good job with that.

[00:41:56] Matthew: Thank you.

[00:41:57] Hector: As you are kind of getting on this, tour and kind of getting ready to promote and publish and share it, what are the things that you're hoping land with people or that they're taking away, from book?

[00:42:11] Matthew: Certainly the, I mean, the subtitle being Finding Strength in Self Compassion. So the title is Hiding Inside a Man. I do hope, and I know from some people that it's true, that more men especially experience self compassion for the, Condition. They find themselves in wherever they are on their path, whether that's resistant to going deeper or whether it's being heartbroken recently or feeling like a failure in terms of career.

[00:42:39] Matthew: there are so many ways that we can beat ourselves up and think we're just not meeting these standards. So self compassion, I think, is the one thing at the least that I hope will come through. If there was more than that, I would say inspiration to deepen relationship with someone either currently in their lives or find people to have deeper relationships with, whether that's a more formal setting like a men's group or just friendships that can go deeper.

[00:43:09] Hector: Yeah, amazing stuff. Where can people find the book

[00:43:13] Matthew: So, we're doing a Kickstarter from. September 13th through October 20, and it can be found there and then shortly thereafter, I'm hoping those are going to be the main kind of offerings for if people wanted it by Christmas time, probably sometime later in the year or early the next year. It'll just be available on my site as a direct sale.

[00:43:34] Matthew: My site is Matthew Sloan dot com Sloan with an E. I'm sure you'll put the links in the notes.

[00:43:42] Hector: and we'll link all that up, in the show notes. Yeah, for sure. Last question for you, Matthew, in your opinion, what is the definition of modern masculinity?

[00:43:52] Matthew: it's a great question. think this is for one such an individual question. So I want to honor that, you know, my version is going to be my version. on one hand, I think modern masculinity is open and fluid to the shape it takes. So that means to me that on a given day I have access to my emotional world and I can tap into the truth of grief or sadness or joy and then another day I can be a physically strong man moving my family from one place to another on a vacation or that in my career I can Open up conversations that respect other people and bring out the strengths both in myself and others.

[00:44:40] Matthew: these are a few of the starter thoughts.

[00:44:42] Hector: Yeah. Great stuff. Well, appreciate you being here, Matthew. And, want to encourage all your listeners to go check out the book. And, is it going to be like a larger than normal size book, or is it going to be like a regular?

[00:44:53] Matthew: It's going to be wide. So, uh, landscape style. Yeah. Like a seven by 10 ish.

[00:44:59] Hector: yeah. So I think it would be like, it's going to be a. It'd be a really good conversation starter to have on your coffee table for sure. Um,

[00:45:07] Matthew: Yeah. Just even the title hiding inside a man. Hopefully that is a spark for a conversation.

[00:45:13] Hector: Yeah. So go ahead and get that. but we appreciate all you fellows for hanging out and sticking around with us today. We'd be forever grateful for a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts. And if you know a guy who needs to hear this, hit that share button and let's grow the community together.

[00:45:27] Hector: But, it's always a joy hanging out with you. We'll see on the next one. Later y'all.