Navigating Divorce, Co-Parenting, and Raising Resilient Kids with Tom Bresnahan

[00:00:00] Hector: What's going on? I hope this episode finds you well, and I hope this episode leaves you better than when it found you. Today's episode is with Tom Bresnahan. And if you look up Tom, he's a IMDb listed actor. He's had quite a, an acting career. But over the last Little bit in the last stage of his life has really devoted and dedicated himself to serving young men, particularly teenage teenagers, and he's doing it in a way that I think is, geez, it's so brave, right?

[00:01:01] Hector: He's like going in and working with these kids and helping them through their shit, you know, and helping them, them get through a lot of the shit that Most teenage boys, young men, are really left to sort of deal with on their own or to try and work out with the group of friends that, are sort of around them.

[00:01:23] Hector: And Tom, you know, comes as, as this guy who brings an, an immense amount of wisdom and experience and patience and compassion and an energy for these boys developments. And it's, uh, it's just so powerful. And, um. You'll have to forgive the audio. If this, uh, if this audio sounds a little funky, our equipment is, is, well, we're in the middle of a transition with our equipment.

[00:01:49] Hector: And, um, so I just hope that you extend some grace and some patience as we try and continue to get these episodes out to you. And so without further ado, let's get into Tom Bresnan.

[00:02:02] Hector: Tom, welcome to the modern masculinity podcast. Thanks for being here. My man,

[00:02:07] Tom: Thanks for having me.

[00:02:08] Hector: take us into your world. A lot of times we're going to talk about the work that you've been doing with young men. We're going to talk about the book that you've written. You know, you've been helping people for, over a decade, almost a decade and a half, but take us into your world.

[00:02:21] Hector: What sort of. Plight or journey? What sort of weight burdens do you feel yourself still working through and carrying as a man, a father, a business owner, a leader? What sort of things Do you find yourself still navigating?

[00:02:34] Tom: Sure. I mean, that's a big question, obviously, but as far as an origin story, if you will, because I think we all have that no matter what work we're in, what led us to sort of wanting to be in that field or serve that person or community, whatever I grew up in the seventies in sort of a crazy household.

[00:02:53] Tom: I'm the oldest of five kids. My dad was a Korean war veteran, kind of a. Nutty alcoholic, things were kind of crazy. So when I later in life had to work through a lot of stuff and went to counseling therapy, stopped drinking and smoking weed when I was in my twenties, I was an actor in films, intelligent for years.

[00:03:12] Tom: And then in my mid forties, when that sort of petered out, I went back and got my degrees and have been doing this ever since. And when I saw around 2012. When the iPhones and all the screens had been out for about five years, I really saw young people starting to struggle and with addictions and focus and behavioral issues and all that.

[00:03:37] Tom: And I remembered

[00:03:38] Hector: We're going to get into that, though. Tom, before we do that, take us into your world, though. Today, you're a father. You have a, teenage daughter. You have a business. You have clients we're going to get into all that. But What shit are you seeing? still, you know, before we hopped on, maybe it was the recording, like as like those sorts of things today, do you find yourself still navigating as a man?

[00:03:59] Tom: mean, I'm navigating what everyone else is navigating, right? Being a father. Being a business owner, keeping all those plates spinning. My daughter's a senior in high school. She just turned 18 yesterday. She's a great kid, high functioning in many ways, but she goes sideways sometimes and I have these visceral reactions and I find myself having feelings that I'm.

[00:04:20] Tom: Coaching the parents I work with to not have, you know, and then my daughter will be like, what's up with you, Mr. Therapist, you know, teenagers can be sassy and all that. Co parenting again, as we all know, half the marriages end in divorce. So half the young people out there have parents that are not together.

[00:04:38] Tom: They're going back and forth between two households. My daughter does that. So her mother and I, we've been divorced for six years. It was a little bumpy the first few years we've worked things out. But we still knock heads sometimes. So it's hard. And again, as you, I'm sure know yourself as a business owner, the economy was a little tough in the last couple of years.

[00:04:58] Tom: Things seem to be loosening up now. So, you're dealing with all that and then getting older, you know, I don't have the energy levels or the stamina. can't play full court basketball with teenagers like I used to 10 years ago. So, you know, I think we're all dealing with that stuff.

[00:05:16] Hector: Well, I think what's challenging as a man and maybe everybody, but it's specifically men who are in the role of leading their family. Not that we have this front that we try and put on or a facade, but it can be sort of challenging to always hold that stoic or that center or that grounded sort of place.

[00:05:35] Hector: And I, too am a, I think the new term is like a solo dad, because If we call ourselves single dads, the internet will get mad at us because they're like, you're not single that. So we are solo dads. And in that regard, we are sort of responsible for the emotional management of the entire household.

[00:05:52] Hector: and I think that that can be, that can be tricky sometimes when we're navigating our own sort of emotions and then trying to. You know, still be a good dad or a father. my kids are five and six. And so the help is a little more hands on in the sense that I'm, you know, making mac and cheese and, you know, getting dino nuggets playing I hop waitress.

[00:06:12] Hector: I find myself still trying to, Ground and center myself because there are times when i'm reacting or i'm shorter than usual and it's not their fault It's just i'm going through my own shit and there's no one there's no backup. You know, there's no one to tag in necessarily

[00:06:27] Tom: Yeah, 100%. And that's so much, I think, learned behavior. It's the modeling you saw growing up and what's in the unconscious. As we know, the unconscious is running the show. For instance, my daughter and her mother, you know, she's 18 and her mother's obviously 50. So they're both women now. And contrary to what It's said in the culture sometimes, men and women are totally different.

[00:06:53] Tom: Our brains work differently. We all know the average woman speaks 25, 000 words a day men speak 10, 000. We see things differently. So to your point. A lot of times I just have to hang back and let them kind of do what they're going to do and don't react, because if I react, then they turn it around on me.

[00:07:12] Tom: I'm like, hey, hey, they'll gang up on me. But if I just kind of let things slide and just be cool and try to be the rock, then they come back around. They almost sense, especially my daughter, she tests all the time. She's poking at me to see if i'm going to react and when I don't. She immediately will soften again, and even her mother does that.

[00:07:34] Tom: So yeah, I think that's sort of a burden that, we have as men and fathers, that we always have to be cognizant of. And then just real quick about the unconscious and your childhood programming part of what I said. My dad is 92 now. He's sort of sundowning. It's kind of sad. He was a Korean war veteran, this like, , macho, you know, ran marathons when I was a kid.

[00:07:56] Tom: And I see how some of the really tough kind of ways that he was with me, I will look at my daughter and think she's so spoiled, or she has it so easy compared to how I was when I was a teenager. But it's like. Not really. I had it hard. It was kind of crazy. She's just getting a more healthy upbringing, if you will.

[00:08:20] Tom: And so I think a lot of times with parents that I work with, especially the ones that maybe had rough, tougher childhoods, they have to realize that your kid's not soft. He's just not Going through , the intensity that you were going through, and you can't get mad at him for that, even though that'll come up for you.

[00:08:41] Hector: Yeah, well, I think the concept of emotional intelligence Is obviously that is That's growing. You know, I'm 30. probably like the typical generation or, , age and emotional intelligence seems like something that is, you know, if you were to say that to most millennials, they would at least have an understanding of it.

[00:08:59] Hector: You know, many of them might have even read the, book or emotional intelligence 2. 0. And my reason for bringing that up is that I think previous generations, there was less of that familiarity. There was less of that understanding of. What goes on internally, whether we're a boy or a girl, a man or a woman, my daughter, she is a very emotional being, I mean, it was one of her greatest gifts and also one of the things that she's learning to sort of navigate.

[00:09:26] Hector: And I can see that there are times where she just loses center. And mom and my dad, they want to come and fix things. What's wrong with her? What does she want? what is it? It's, the spoon or it's the ketchup. I mean, it could have been anything to set her off. And what I've sort of realized is that it is, not about any of those particular things.

[00:09:45] Hector: It's actually about her processing whatever emotion is going on. And that just seems much more foreign to people of my parents generation, you know, and, , they're 60, 60 something. And, that concept of let's just fix it and the problem will go away when it's like, no, that emotion is still lingering there.

[00:10:04] Hector: If you just give her a new fork that thing is still gonna be there, until it's processed and digested the right sort of way.

[00:10:11] Tom: Well, it's really good that you understand that because I'm closer to your parents age, obviously. and to your point, as much as you can, you have to let kids problem solve on their own, whether it's emotionally or functionally or, solving problems around the house or whatever, because that.

[00:10:26] Tom: You really saw that happen in the 90s, where there was this sort of thing, we can build the perfect kid and we got to get them into the right preschool and they have to be on the Ivy League track by the time they're in third grade, we really know now that that doesn't work. Jonathan Haidt, a colleague of mine, he has a bestseller out now called The Anxious Generation.

[00:10:45] Tom: previous book is called The Coddling of the American Mind, and he really talks about it in that book about where, you know that build the perfect kid and make them sort of immune to any mistakes or teach them the best way to get at that.

[00:11:01] Hector: I was a product of that. I was born in 91 went through that whole system. And exactly. take failure out of the equation. You remove failure as an option. And all of a sudden we start like, so we get you really anxious or we, we don't try because the likelihood of failure is, imminent in most things that we do.

[00:11:19] Hector: And I see so many kids my age, just wanting to be perfect at the expense of happiness, fulfillment, real success. And so they sort of limit that. I know I limited myself because I didn't want to fail or do things that I wasn't good at.

[00:11:32] Tom: Yeah. And, you're one of the very young millennials, as you know, the, Gen Z's are turning 12 to 27 this year. There's 68 million of them. They are really struggling because of what you just said they're the first generation to grow up with screens and phones and the internet and all that.

[00:11:49] Tom: And, they have a very low tolerance for know, that old saying, being able to hold two opposing ideas in your mind or sort of deal with problems and be able to compartmentalize like, okay, this isn't going right, but I've got to focus on school today, or this isn't going right, but I've got to get my homework done or that they really don't have that sort of resiliency built in largely because of how they were raised.

[00:12:16] Tom: now we're, just really trying to scramble and fix it.

[00:12:19] Hector: Well, I think social media is, I think has a lot to do with it. And it's not just social media. I mean, it's, the whole thing. It's tech, it's screens, it's that draw to whatever that draws, whether it's the dopamine or distraction or whatever it is. Like I myself. You know, implemented quite a number of habits with tech, and I've got, you know, limits on all my things and notification silence, and I still feel myself being pulled to distraction.

[00:12:44] Hector: And, you know, when I have a few minutes in between a call or something like that, just the natural inclination To just pull out my phone and start scrolling through my Twitter feed. And what I don't think a lot of people are realizing is the downstream effects of that. It's not that in and of itself I don't think is actually the challenge.

[00:13:00] Hector: It's the fact that, okay, now you had three minutes, but you ended up spending eight to ten. And all of a sudden, energy is pulled in all different ways. you're focusing on things that, frankly, oftentimes don't have anything to do with your life. I don't think that's conducive to people living a grounded, focused, centered, productive sort of life if they're worrying about all this shit that doesn't matter to them.

[00:13:19] Tom: Yeah, of course. And I relate. I don't really have an issue with any of the platforms other than Twitter, Twitter. I can just, and I have a one hour, and I just like when the little thing comes up and you have a five minute warning, I'm like, don't do it. and what you said, the real distinction for your audience and anyone listening, cause I've, done so much research on this , and obviously my experience with over 300 families now and my own daughter as well, It's not like the 10 minutes, the 10 minutes, the 10 minutes here, here, there throughout the day. That's worse than if you just did one block of one hour. Okay. Because especially with their developing brain, as we know, their brain isn't fully developed till they're 25 and boys. Brains develop even slower girls, 22 ish boys, sometimes 25 and that executive function, the neofrontal cortex, you know, right above the eyes, it atrophies that they know.

[00:14:17] Tom: So that 10 or 15 minutes, every hour, all day is almost worse than just, you can have one hour of video games. You can have one hour of, you know, the phone and social media, and then you're done. You got to turn your phone. And it's hard. if we had had those when I was a teenager, I would have been addicted to I'm sure I would have so I know it's hard for parents, but if you don't put those limits on them, you're literally messing with their brain development.

[00:14:44] Tom: We know that Steve Jobs and all the tech titans wouldn't let their kids have. iPads and iPhones because they knew how addictive it was.

[00:14:53] Hector: yeah. it's tough. I'm curious because I think that this is a maybe it's a symptom or I don't think anyone would necessarily argue with me or would get upset with me if I said that the world is a little bit fucked up these days and that if we have any inkling of moving towards, Whatever out of this past this above this, that men are going to play, I mean, if not half the role, obviously a large role in bringing us, you know, society, culture into that new world.

[00:15:23] Hector: And I think that families, you know, it starts with the individual and then once it goes past that the family unit then obviously communities and society. but I think that men. We have enough responsibility, but I don't think that we should shy away from it. We do have the responsibility to give our kids, boys and girls, a fighting chance at this next little bit.

[00:15:42] Hector: to your point, if we just send them in with programming of previous generations, I think we're just dooming them to failure. So I'm just gonna stop there. I'm curious. Like when I think about what we're doing as men or even what this show is trying to doing, maybe I'm just trying to self aggrandize myself and give myself some, self importance.

[00:15:59] Hector: But I do think that these conversations can have as large of an impact on, you know, where we move to as a society.

[00:16:08] Tom: Yeah, 100%. And, to, illustrate what you just said, that great point with a few examples. So, in my own life, as you said, men leading, men being an example, know, that mature masculinity that I'm always trying to push the young guys and even their dads to sort of shoot for. my daughter, Scarlett, She's a great kid, but sometimes she's really snotty and disrespectful and can be kind of a brat, honey, if you're listening to this, I'm sorry, but it's like I get to choose how I react you know, don't you talk to me that way, or don't you be disrespectful, you know, kind of how maybe my dad was 40 years ago, whatever versus, okay, let her be a little snotty.

[00:16:52] Tom: That's all right. I can pick and choose and sort of lead from that place of strength where they respect you. She kind of knows, all right, he's not on me for everything, but there's certain. deal breakers that I can't cross the line. And another maybe societal way to illustrate what I feel you brought up was, you know, you see the only fan stuff in pornography and whose fault is it?

[00:17:16] Tom: And the girls are all sluts and the boys are all loser incels jerking off to porn and all that. So if men aren't watching pornography, if they're not paying for only fans that doesn't exist. You know, those things dry up immediately. So I always tell my young guys, I think men , and the dads, , a lot of the dads, a lot of married men are into porn.

[00:17:38] Tom: There's a lot of sexless marriages, as we know, and marriages where there's, you know, sex once a month or something. So porn is just as addictive as drugs, alcohol, anything else. So how do we change the society? stop doing that shit.

[00:17:54] Hector: to that point, I think for sure. And I've had my own battles with, with all of that, what I realized as I. got divorced or like when I divorced was kind of starting to happen and it was not only was it like really painful, which is I think at the root of all of this, it was so strange that my natural reaction, was to start opening up dating apps or, going on tinder or looking for this, like whatever.

[00:18:18] Hector: Looking , , to fix or, what I realized it was like it was looking for something to sort of pacify the wound, take away a little bit of the pain, and it was only when I was willing to turn into that sort of pain and that hurt and all the betrayal and all those sorts of things Did it become easier to not go on porn or to delete all the apps , or any of those sorts of things.

[00:18:39] Hector: Right. because I just told myself, just stop watching porn, just go, you know, no fat, like you just don't, don't do it. And my brain, kept craving whatever was on the other side of that. And so I think that like for me, doing a lot of breath work, doing a lot of, you know, inner child, like all those, so the healing work.

[00:18:57] Hector: Yeah. It's so important if we want to stop, these other problems that sort of emerge when guys are just, they don't have a sense of self worth. They don't have a sense of self confidence there, and they also don't know how to deal with or work through any of those emotions because we, as men, we're not supposed to have those.

[00:19:14] Hector: So, so not only do we not talk about it, but we don't even know how to, navigate it.

[00:19:19] Tom: Well, yeah. And we do have the emotions, obviously the whole sort of stoic, nothing bothers me that whole meme is not reality. know, we all have it. And I've gone through my issues with drugs and alcohol and a little porn and all the dating apps and all that stuff, too. think most of us have. But I also know that those were just escapes to not look at my own pain for me to not look at How did we get to this place of divorce?

[00:19:47] Tom: How did we get to this place of, you know, I chose this woman. We had a child, we built a life together and then. it fell apart. And if I don't look at that, then I'm going to repeat it. You know, the old saying, the universe will keep bringing you back the same lesson until you get it. And so it's not even turn inward.

[00:20:06] Tom: It's just like, turn off all the distractions and all the ways that you know you're acting out addictively to not feel. And then it's going to come up. You've probably heard saying, don't worry about getting in touch with your feelings, they'll get in touch with you. Well, the way they get in touch with you is when you stop all the ways that you're acting out and numbing out.

[00:20:28] Tom: yeah, it's not easy. You're going to have a dark night of the soul. You may be crying, you may feel anger, but writing. Reading, praying, meditating. Like you said, breath work, working out, building yourself as a man. yeah, I tell all my young guys today, the bar is so low. I'm saying if you can stay in shape, keep a job, be focused, be ambitious, show up for an interview and be like, how can I bring value?

[00:20:58] Tom: What can I do? How can I make this enterprise more money? They're like, hire this kid. and this is even guys that come in with graduate degrees because so many of the dads I work with are very successful businessmen, fortune 500 executives. And they'll tell me, they'll be like, this kid came in, he was like MBA from blah, blah, blah.

[00:21:19] Tom: And he's like saying, Oh, so , how much time do I get off? And when am I going to get a raise? And, they leave my office and I'm like, I don't want to work with this kid. I don't even care that he went to an Ivy league school and has his MBA from Wharton. He's an entitled little jerk and it's something that I think is, again, we as the older men have to teach these younger guys how to and I don't mean like sit down, shut up and listen, but I mean, like.

[00:21:50] Tom: Be quiet, learn, listen to the older guys, find some mentors, , and really take direction and let them show you how you can get the success you want. one of the things, just real quick, I know I'm yammering here, but one of the things I ask teenage boys is, I say, so where do you want to be when you're 25?

[00:22:11] Tom: Would you like to have a cool job? That you're making good money with room for growth and, you know, cool apartment, maybe with some roommates, hot girlfriend and a cool car or something. And then you're doing fun things on the weekend. I've never had a teenage boy say no to that question. And so then my job there is to help him reverse engineer that to where he is today.

[00:22:35] Tom: So if that's where you want to go, how are we going to get you there? And it's not from smoking weed, vaping, jerking off to porn, goofing around with your friends, Netflix and chill and doing that bullshit. That is not going to get you there. A little of that. We get it. You're a teenager. You're in your early 20s.

[00:22:54] Tom: Maybe you're in college, but you got to be focusing. You got to be locked in. , and so many young guys, I don't think have mentors and role models to be telling them that.

[00:23:04] Hector: Yeah, one of our early episodes was, about the rites of passages for boys that sort of gone by the wayside. And, the things that are still doing those sort of initiations not that. Right. the best pass, whether that's gangs or, usually the gangs or groups of friends who are, you know, not down the right path, but , there's no structured way , for, like you said, a boy To gain those skills become a man.

[00:23:28] Hector: And so I'm curious if, you see those, things already possible or how you've been, , trying to, catch it before, it breaks, if you will, , by reaching men, , before they even get to their twenties, I would imagine.

[00:23:41] Tom: Yeah, great question. And I don't think there's a lot of rites of passage. I think in sports, kids that play football or baseball or lacrosse, there's a little bit of that. The Boy Scouts now seems to be over. That's kind of been a weird thing that happened to that. I'm starting live events next year where I'm going to have the dads and the sons and kind of that rite of passage and that sort of father and son reunion, if you will, on an emotional level and cleaning things up and really helping the young man do that transition from boyhood into young manhood.

[00:24:15] Tom: I'm really excited about that. But, to your point, don't think it's happening a lot. And it's. really a loss for the culture. It really is. And it's a big reason why I think young men are struggling even more than young women. Young women are struggling too. There's this thing that's happened in the last five years where if you're for young men and men in general, that means you're anti women.

[00:24:40] Tom: It's not a zero sum game. You can care about. both. And again, I have a teenage daughter. I want her to have every opportunity in the world, but it can't be at the expense of young men. I think we've seen the me too era and, powerful men had, their comeuppance and had to deal with things they did to hurt women and keep women down.

[00:25:01] Tom: But you can't paint young men with the same brush. for the sins of these older, powerful men, like for instance, you know, I was in Hollywood and Harvey Weinstein, I was in acting class with Ashley, this is over 30 years ago. And I remember when she went to the, you know, allegedly to the Beverly Hills hotel to have a meeting with him about her career and something again, allegedly crazy happened.

[00:25:26] Tom: And, he's someone who deserved to go down, but you saw in Hollywood where now all men were bad. And then you have these superhero movies where like a hundred pound girl is beating up like, you know, six foot five army guys and shit. It's just really stupid. And the kids are all confused. They really are.

[00:25:45] Tom: a buddy of mine teaches acting at a big. acting school in Manhattan and, you know, cause I was an actor. And so was he years ago. And he was like, you can't imagine how crazy it is now. All the like, boy meets girl scenes, you know, like in romantic comedies and movies, all the kissing scenes or love scenes or all that, they can't do those in class anymore.

[00:26:05] Tom: Cause you're not allowed to touch because there could be some microaggression or something bet. So they have to do all these exercises, but you're not allowed to touch the other person. It's crazy. It's kind of nuts. So yeah, I know that was a long winded answer, but, the rites of passage and letting just boys be boys.

[00:26:26] Tom: They're more rambunctious. They've got testosterone pumping through their system. Again, even Scarlett will tell me, she'll be like, dad, a girl will pass a note or be on her phone or joking around. And the teacher will go, stop that, Jennifer, be quiet. And a boy will do the same thing. He gets sent right to the office. That's just not cool.

[00:26:44] Hector: yeah. and you're right that there is this idea that if you are for men, you're against women. You know, for the longest time, I didn't wanna start this show because in whatever small capacity I thought that my platform would, be canceled, right?

[00:26:58] Hector: Like, that was a crazy thought that I was be just because the idea of putting masculinity in the title of the show immediately turned off. Some people, I mean, there was, some guests that I reached out to and they probably weren't the right sort of guests, but they were like, I don't believe in a platform that, is about masculinity and it's like, well what do you mean? Okay, well, I think what they're missing is that alongside the rise of the sort of feminist movement, men weren't, you know, That new place for them wasn't established, right? If women sort of had this elevation, which they should and is great and fantastic, we didn't account for.

[00:27:31] Hector: So now what role , do men play if, men are no longer the sole breadwinners, then do they provide in a way that isn't just financially? And I think that there are answers to that. But if, a guy isn't aware of that, Potential or isn't aware of that sort of value and they think that the only thing that separates themselves.

[00:27:51] Hector: The only thing that they have to offer distinguish themselves from other men is how much money they make. Well, it's like it's no wonder that, you know, there's a rise of the internet girlfriend or , these E girls or these, the AI sort of stuff, only fans you mentioned, like, it's just.

[00:28:05] Hector: It's not a, surprise necessarily that men are turning to them because they're like, , what are we supposed to do? And it's a real question that they have, that a lot of people aren't dignifying with an answer

[00:28:15] Tom: Yeah, I'll dignify it I know what's going on. and so does everyone else. I'm not saying this is like my thing, but birth rates have cratered, marriage rates have cratered the satisfaction of the sex is getting along and having fun and all that is at an all time low.

[00:28:31] Tom: So we know that's not good for anybody, whether you're a teenager or in your forties or fifties, there's this animosity between the sexes and this blame to me, I think the core underpinning of it all is this sort of wanting to make us all the same. And not realizing that men and women are different.

[00:28:52] Tom: Their brains are different. They act differently. I think toxic masculinity is almost a slur. It's just goofy. we don't have enough masculinity. Toxic masculinity is fine when there's a disaster, or a fire, or an earthquake, or a flood, and all that, right? Then

[00:29:09] Tom: it's like, oh, or a spider come save me.

[00:29:13] Tom: but the women aren't happy. They're not. And again, I'll say it, whoever I piss off. You know, sorry, we can talk about it if you want, you know, DM me, but the women are not happy. They're not, they're miserable that most of them don't want to be a boss girl. They don't want to be lonely they're not interested in making tons of money.

[00:29:36] Tom: think a thing you see, I say this is sort of like calling it almost a cultural Rorschach, if you will, there's a case going on now in New York city where this, Former Marine or something on a subway this crazy guy was terrorizing people on the subway card. He grabbed him and choked him. And apparently the guy was still alive when the paramedics got there, but you can see he's on trial, and this guy apparently had like 43 previous convictions and all that you really see how the culture is vilifying the very.

[00:30:09] Tom: heroism and I think healthy masculinity That they would want if one of their loved ones life was in danger, you know every person on that jury And every person that's outside, you know saying send him to jail He's guilty if their mother or their father or their son or daughter was about to be Maybe injured or worse by some crazy guy on a subway car.

[00:30:34] Tom: They would want that guy to, to grab them and save their family member. and I know this is long winded, but I feel it's really important for our audience. There's this public persona. I think which has made us so worried, and then what we really feel in private. And I think until those things start to come back to be as one, we're going to suffer as a culture.

[00:30:55] Tom: Because again, I think there's a lot more people that feel like, you know what,

[00:30:59] Tom: He choked him and maybe it let, but the guy was going crazy and he could have hurt people on a car and he was nuts and had 42 prior convictions. We're not going to put this guy in jail. I think most people feel that way, but they're afraid to say it because they could lose their job.

[00:31:14] Tom: or hurt their career or whatever. And I think that is really hurting us as a culture and it really hurts young boys because, that's who I really care about. That's this next generation, you know, the pool of men that maybe my daughter's going to pick a husband from, they see that and they go, Hey, I want to be heroic.

[00:31:33] Tom: I'd love to help out, but then no, maybe I'll be the one that gets in trouble. and I think if we don't correct that as a culture. , we're headed for the rocks.

[00:31:42] Hector: Another, former guest of the show, Dr. Robert Glover, , he wrote the book, No More Mr. Nice Guy, I for sure, you know, you say, oh, you look like an alpha, and I'm like, well, geez, , I'm glad that's the case now, because I was the nice guy, the pushover, the boundary, you know, I was the happy wife, happy life, I made that my mo to the demise of my, relationship.

[00:32:01] Hector: Right. Cause like you said, a certain point when a guy does everything, you know, the woman wants and been like, it's just, it's not attractive. . And we've talked about that quite a bit on the show and the mistakes that I made, but to that point, there's this idea of the nice guy.

[00:32:12] Hector: And I don't think that, That's as much in the, culture anymore for the, the Gen Zers, but I do think that a lot of millennial guys, 30 something year olds may have that programming and not even be aware because wouldn't have identified that before. My divorce, you know, and for my marriage sort of went the way that it went, but when I look back and it's like, and I take responsibility for all the things, you know, for my share of it, it's like, Oh, yeah, that's where you were not playing your part.

[00:32:42] Hector: I guess the reason I'm saying this is that we went way too far, we don't want to be, you know, the, the toxic masculinity, the aggressive the wife beater, okay, so we're going to be the Homer Simpson, we're going to be the Tim Allen, we're going to be the Ray Romano, we're going to be on that side, and we swung too far, and so hopefully there's this sort of balancing, you know, this middle ground, thankfully we've seen the two extremes, but it's going to take work to sort of find that middle.

[00:33:05] Tom: I agree with everything you just said and your points , are salient. but what I would say to that is the sort of like, the wife beater, toxic, effed up guy, that's like a trope again from the 1940s or something. again, does it happen? Of course, I'm certainly not saying it doesn't.

[00:33:23] Tom: But I think that's a small minority. I think most marriages, most relationships today, there's guys trying to find, like you said, that sweet spot where I'm not this overbearing like guy that's always trying to be the macho guy, but I'm not this little pleaser boy wussy that she just doesn't respect.

[00:33:41] Tom: And it's like. You know, boring. and so many guys I'll ask me like the dads and the guys in their twenties, so what do I do? What do I actually do? And I always tell them, you don't have to do anything. You have to come from your mature masculine. You have to come from the reasonable. Logic, and what the specific situation calls for, respond, don't react, be calm, certain reactions are just like, no, no, I'm not going to do that.

[00:34:15] Tom: And then they'll flip out on you and it's like, okay, well you can do whatever you want, but I'm not doing that. And then the woman will come around and say, okay, because you responded maturely. You didn't overexplain. But you didn't yell. it's sort of finding that middle ground. so many guys have such a hard time with it.

[00:34:34] Tom: I do too, sometimes, know. not overreacting.

[00:34:38] Hector: recently posted, you said you can't punish a struggling teen boy into being a better person. What do you mean by that?

[00:34:44] Tom: What so many parents think is it's kind of like whack a mole every problem or thing that he does, whether he's vaping, smoking, weed, drinking, acting out, he's into porn. He's yelling at me. He won't listen to his sister. He sneaks out at night and they just, if I can just solve all the problems and punish him and take all his devices away and all his privileges, then he'll toe the line. And. I'm here to tell your audience that 99. 9 percent of the time that never works. What's usually going on is he's pissed off and upset or afraid or angry or worried and nobody understands what that is. Nobody's helped him figure that out. A lot of times it can be even below the level of consciousness.

[00:35:34] Tom: A lot of times it's about. the parents getting divorced or dad's never around or moms. And that's much more difficult. Parents don't want to do that. They want to solve the problem quickly and get it handled. But when you're looking at the long term, when you're looking at his maturation, when you're looking at your son or daughters developing their own agency and their own maturity and their own problem solving skills, and as you said earlier, making their own mistakes in learning. You've really got to get in there and see, and I'm talking to the parents now, what mistakes you've made. I made plenty of mistakes, and I know all the stuff. I'm in the field. I made plenty mistakes with my daughter in my marriage and even after. And if parents don't look at their mistakes and their role modeling, and they just want to sort of punish the kid, and it's your fault, so many parents will reach out to me and say, hey, this sounds amazing.

[00:36:32] Tom: We just read your book. We want to work with you. And I say, okay, great. We'll have his first session and then we'll have your first. And they go, Oh no, no, we, we don't need a session. We're fine. And I always tell them, no, no, no, no. You have to work with, and they're like, but we're, and I say, there's plenty of stuff that we're going to need to work on with you.

[00:36:49] Tom: Just trust me. And the parents that say, you know what, you're right. And then the kid sees, wow, Tom's talking to mom and dad too. They're making changes. They know they've made mistakes. They know they've done things that have pissed me off and maybe caused me to act the way I do. That's when things really start to change in

[00:37:08] Tom: the whole family.

[00:37:09] Hector: Yeah, I know you got a lot of different things and resources and ways for people to get support, but I'd love for you to share a little bit about programs or the book. I even think there's a new one coming out just that people want to go and go deeper into your world.

[00:37:21] Tom: post pretty much every day on X Facebook and LinkedIn and you can download my new book. It's called Take Back Control. It's really getting your son back on track or even your daughter. You know, , it's a free ebook. It's a quick read. You can download it and then. If you feel like you need help, you can reach out to me.

[00:37:41] Tom: The five critical steps that parents do need to do that. I always tell them are first of all, again, like we were just saying, you got to tell the truth. You have to start telling the truth about what you and your co parent have been doing. And maybe your part in why he's acting out and then that's going to help him tell the truth.

[00:37:58] Tom: The second thing is you have to be a united front. So many parents, whether they're together or divorced and separate, they're not a united front. And so the kids will live in the gap. They know where mom and dad don't agree. And that's where they live. You know, it's like divide and conquer. Even with your five and six year old, you can see them.

[00:38:18] Tom: do it a little bit in their own way. the third thing is, is you have to agree on boundaries and consequences and even between the parents, because when he sees the parents having boundaries with each other, then he will start to respect boundaries. The fourth thing is, respectful communication.

[00:38:36] Tom: Instead of yelling and screaming and doling out punishments, again, even between the parents and between the each parent and the son, and then the fifth thing is, and probably the most important, you have to uncover and process past events, traumas, getting bullied in school, maybe a breakup for a girlfriend, maybe he went through a time of having really bad acne, maybe he was really short and got picked on for being the little

[00:39:01] Hector: how soon is too soon to start unpacking things like that

[00:39:04] Hector: ? Like, at what age does that sort

[00:39:05] Tom: 13. I just got a new, I just got a new family the other day last week, a 13 year old kid. He's in seventh grade and parents are divorced. They're going out to dinner tonight. at my behest, for the first time, the three of them in like four years. And when I talked to this little guy, you know, about cause he's an only child, would you like to maybe go out and do stuff as a family with your mom and dad?

[00:39:33] Tom: And do you wish they could sort of get along and everything? And he like started to cry. And he was like, yeah, and he's acting out and really having problems. So the parents are amazing. both willing to do it and they know they need to work together and, and start to, do things like that.

[00:39:49] Tom: So, know, to answer your question, he's 13 and. Just from two sessions with him and one session with the parents. And then, like I said, they're going out tonight and then I'm going to do a session with the parents Monday to find out what happened. And then I'll have a session next Wednesday with the young man.

[00:40:06] Tom: Things are already changing. And they just hired me a week ago because you get down to what's really going on. They 50 minute hour. But they were never hearing what, they need to do or what's really going on because they never even talked to the therapist.

[00:40:24] Hector: Yeah, I think a lot of parents, they look at, What's the kid's problem? And they don't realize that they are usually problem. Or they, have a lot to do with it. And, I'm glad you, you bring that up. Can you give the name of the book one more time for people who want to go and get that?

[00:40:40] Tom: the book is called Take Back Control. And it's in the pin post, as I said, Tom Bresnahan on X, Facebook and LinkedIn. And then again, it'll be in the show notes. It's a quick read. Even if you never work with me, it's my gift to all your listeners. If you have a teenager, even a girl, like I said, Read the book, whether you're with, their co parent, you're divorced, you're a single parent, you're going to get some great stuff to use.

[00:41:07] Tom: And like I said, if you want

[00:41:08] Tom: help, reach out to me

[00:41:10] Hector: I love it. My last question here, Tom, is in your opinion, what is the definition of modern masculinity?

[00:41:16] Tom: it's the mature masculinity. it's the middle ground. And I'll illustrate that by the three parenting styles, which I'm sure you're aware of. On the one end, there's the authoritarian. Which is very sort of like yelling and screaming and controlling. And then on the other end of the spectrum is the permissive, where the parents let the kids kind of do anything.

[00:41:36] Tom: They can have parties at the house and smoke weed and drink and all that, right? You understand. they want to be their friend instead of their parent. And then the middle ground is the authoritative. The parents are loving and friendly and all that great stuff, but they're the parent first. And they have age appropriate consequences, guidance, and all that.

[00:41:59] Tom: So, the child really understands what sort of boundaries are and all that. And so, that I feel is where modern masculinity and the mature masculinity is. Nobody wants that cartoon character Andrew Tate thing, Bitches and hoes and all right, but they also don't want the little wussy pleaser boy who will just do anything they want.

[00:42:24] Tom: There's a middle ground and I think the men that can find that going to have the best, outcomes as far as their relationships with women, whether you've been married 20 years or whether you're a young guy in your twenties. Trying to have a healthy relationship with a woman, they want that combination and, it becomes exhausting when you feel you have to play this role like I said, finding the middle ground is easy because you're always like, okay, what's the logical middle ground?

[00:42:50] Tom: I'm not going to be a little wussy pushover, but I'm also not going to yell and be like, Mr. Macho guy. think that's what women are looking for.