Money, Masculinity, and Modern Husbands with Brian Page

[00:00:00] Hector: Alan, welcome to the Modern Masculinity Podcast. How are you, my man?

[00:00:06] Alan: Hector, thank you so much for having me. I'm great. I'm really excited about the opportunity to spend a little time with you in conversation today, and, get to know your listeners a little bit better.

[00:00:14] Hector: Yeah, It's fun to have these conversations, at least selfishly. They're always timely, and what I'm realizing and knowing as I'm kind of going through this is that more and more. Men are going through the same thing. And one of the kinda traditions we've built here on this show is instead of sharing about how awesome you are, and you've got a book, and we'll talk about it and all the cool things that you've done, we like to talk about what's real and what we're going through.

[00:00:38] Hector: Because I think as men, we oftentimes are so hesitant to share. Those things because of fear that it makes us look whatever type of way. And so that's of a practice that we've been doing. A, because I think it's fun and it makes me feel a little better, but I know that it also connects because there's other guys out there who are, going through similar things.

[00:00:58] Hector: So as a man, perhaps father or a partner or, any of these roles that we as men take on. what's something that you're going through that's, real for you right now?

[00:01:07] Alan: Absolutely. Well, I wear all of those hats as you might imagine. So I am a husband, I am a father, to a 14 year old daughter who just had a birthday a few weeks ago. And you know, I think what I think of when you ask that question is, showing up for the people who matter in my life. being there and being a supportive person, being a source of, presence, and doing all of that right.

[00:01:28] Alan: is a challenge at times because, You don't know what life is gonna throw you at any given moment. it seems like the working models that we've had in the past for how to men, who do these things are somewhat flawed or outdated. it's not enough to be the strong and silent type.

[00:01:43] Alan: It's not enough to be, the person who just goes out and makes a living. And then throws every other aspect of being a member of the family to all of the other members of the family. So, are you content to stand around and tell dad jokes? Are you content to, do whatever you can to not embarrass your children as much as possible?

[00:02:01] Alan: or is there more? And I've been spending a lot of time and energy in the space of the more lately. And, it's fascinating to me. And, I think I'm fortunate to have, a small network of friends who are in similar phases of their life and at roughly similar ages to mine. And, they're terrific people they bring a lot, not just to their families, but to other environments that they spend time in and, and watching them do that has been inspiration to me as well.

[00:02:24] Hector: Yeah, of the themes that's come up a lot on this conversations is that we're not living in our, father or grandfather's time anymore. with regards to any of those things, parenting, relationships, providing the game has changed completely. And what we're trying to do a little bit and what, I'm seeing is that more and more men are, trying to rewrite that manual, And to, provide some of these models. I'm curious though, I've shared a lot on some of these recordings, my own challenges with the ability to navigate. All of those battlefronts, if you will. You know, I've, I've kind of related it to like Napoleon, who's, got all of these fronts that he's gotta fight and, the skills that are required to be able to do that effectively has there been moments or points or crises where, you've felt that a little bit.

[00:03:12] Alan: Who hasn't, honestly. there's no rule that any of this is supposed to be easy. And, I think that we can go back and talk about the way things were the patriarchy and historical gender roles in this country and in society around the world. yes, that system, that model worked really well for a great number of people.

[00:03:30] Alan: mostly men, but for a great number of people. It didn't also, and I'm not just talking about those who were subjugated by it, there was a lot of unhappiness, a lot of unfulfillment, a lot of questioning. even I think among men of prior generations, you just didn't see it or hear about it as much because along with that, solid provider thing, it was kind of supposed to be easy or it was assumed that it would not be a struggle.

[00:03:51] Alan: And it is a struggle, I think anybody who's walking around saying in, modern times in today's world, but they know exactly what's going on in their life and exactly what they should do at any given moment is probably delusional. only thing I can say that makes it easier because it's hard.

[00:04:05] Alan: Is that you don't have to do it by yourself. So I mentioned my friend group, I mentioned, people in my family that I can count on when I need something. And I think having conversations like this helps. I think having resources like your podcast helps. And there are also peers and mentors and therapists and coaches out there, who are available and necessary in certain cases.

[00:04:26] Hector: Yeah, I've, I don't ever like to pick on my parents, but I think they're generationally, they're an emblem. You know, they grew up in the sixties. They were both born in 1960, and I think that their the American dream, my grandparents were immigrants and, they struggled and were very much in, poverty.

[00:04:43] Hector: And My parents bought the house. They got the picket fence. They've got the Roth ira, my mom's got the pension and so I grew up. With this same ideal of you're gonna get the picket fence, everybody's gonna be home by five 30, eating dinner. And like those memes of the 1950s guys with the slick backed hair and got his briefcase and he's walking with his smile and the wife's all happy that home and dinner's made and the house is spotless and it's like, This ideal if I'm comparing myself to that ideal, if I open the door to my office, shit's everywhere, there's beads on the floor, you know, like the dishwasher is full

[00:05:25] Hector: it's totally not, it's not that picture. There was very much like dying of that old sense. And maybe it'll come back. Maybe it's just cause I have toddlers, but I found myself being frustrated that I wasn't living that ideal. And then I realized that maybe that ideal is not I ideal.

[00:05:42] Hector: I don't know. I'm in the middle of it. What do you think?

[00:05:45] Alan: Yeah, I think it was not ideal for many people. I pictured Don Draper from Mad Men when you were talking about the guy with the briefcase, and we saw, the unraveling of his family life in that show as expressed by people who are, living in, modern times. but that doesn't work for everybody.

[00:05:59] Alan: and maybe it doesn't work for most people. I don't know. You know, I think about our situation and we're a dual income household and for the longest time my wife, who's a school teacher, has had the harder of the two jobs. And since November, 2019, I've been self-employed and working primarily from home.

[00:06:13] Alan: And she's been the one who goes out of the house every day before I'm ready for work to, be useful and do things that matter in society and also collect a paycheck Our daughter is growing up in a world where she knows at least one man who does the grocery shopping and does cooking most of the nights and most of the laundry too.

[00:06:31] Alan: and we do that not because we're, um, necessarily trying to make some kind of political statement, but more along the lines of where does it fit within? Who's capable, who's available? and not necessarily to just assume that it automatically falls to one person or another. it's an arrangement that works for us, but not for everybody.

[00:06:48] Alan: We certainly in our community where we live now, among the fellow parents of children who go to my daughter's school, we've got dual income homes, we've got single income homes, we've got single parents, we've got, all manner across the economic spectrum. And I think if there's one lesson to take away from this discussion of what masculinity is or how men are supposed to show up is there isn't a universal model anymore.

[00:07:09] Alan: And I don't really think there should be.

[00:07:10] Hector: Right. Well, what's interesting is that, yeah, I do a lot of the cooking. If anything is being cleaned, it's probably gonna be by me. I've had my own conversations about that and that's been his own process. but also on the other side, I have my four year old son and I'm very conscious of trying to make sure that he also knows that yes, men clean and men cook, and men go hit the punching bag and men lift heavy stuff.

[00:07:33] Hector: we stink from time to time. You know, like, all of it, not either or, or just because you do one, you can't be the other. I don't know if that has been enough of the conversation too, there's always the idea of like the guy outside grilling,

[00:07:46] Hector: but is it possible for manly men to also, have range I think is something that is important to be bringing into the conversation now, to include all of it, All of the various flavors, if you will, and expressions perhaps is a better word of masculinity.

[00:08:02] Alan: I agree. and I think what it has to do with is really questioning those assumptions. one of my favorite stories about how this often happens is this. So, I've been vegan on a plant-based diet for 22 years, since 2002. Long time. my whole family is, And it's like second nature to me.

[00:08:18] Alan: It's not, anything that I even consciously think about most days because I know where to get what and kind of what I need. It's like brushing my teeth. but from time to time I'll go out for lunch or for dinner with somebody I know, a colleague, a friend, who's a woman, and we'll be at a restaurant.

[00:08:32] Alan: Inevitably what will happen is, she'll order some kind of chicken sandwich or something and I'll get a salad, because of, the aforementioned dietary preferences and coming out of the kitchen every single time. What will happen is she gets offered the salad and I'm like, Nope. That's for me.

[00:08:46] Alan: it's like a running gag among people that I eat with on a regular basis. Cuz it always happens and it doesn't matter the age or the gender or the server either. it's just a thing. So I say question those assumptions. You never know who's gonna get the salad.

[00:08:59] Hector: you don't, you don't ever know who's gonna get the salad. I'm curious. I have a, group of guys we meet every couple of weeks and we hold space for each other to, dump whatever it is that's kind of going on in our worlds. and one of the things that has of emerged is that when doing these, I don't even know.

[00:09:14] Hector: we need to find new language, but the non-traditionally, uh, Masculine things, you know,cooking, cleaning, or there was even an example of a, guy who, he didn't drive. So anywhere he had to go his girlfriend had to take him.

[00:09:27] Hector: the energies, because of that, the driving is perhaps very traditionally masculine of a role navigate, whatever. And that unless he did something to switch the energies, unless he did something, to get back into that, traditionally masculine energy.

[00:09:43] Hector: So in this example, he would like swoop her down and, holder and gaze into her eyes, be that suave. Man that unless he did something like that, there was something that felt off their relationship just didn't, gel or it didn't flow.

[00:09:58] Hector: As when he did that. I've kind of resonated with that a little bit cause my wife she's an ass kicker at work and she's very hard charging and there's a lot of times where she's out on work trips and I spend, four or five days at home with the kids taking care of the house and stuff And unless I do something like that, to switch the energy or swap the energy, she's like, I don't wanna be around this wimpy, depleted whatever. So I'm curious for you, like,where are you with that? Does that resonate?

[00:10:23] Hector: What are your thoughts?

[00:10:24] Alan: You know, it sounds like the theme is, dominance in some way, like, there's a desire, or an expectation for us to take control, for us to be in charge, for us to dominate in some kind of way. And, I think all of us have our own level of comfort with doing that from time to time as the situation might demand.

[00:10:41] Alan: I think what also tends to happen is it can be assumed that we're going to do that. Even if we're not necessarily in the mindset or in the mood or in the habit of doing that sort of thing on a regular basis. So, along the lines of the, the conversation about the expectations around the salad.

[00:10:57] Alan: if you see two people walking together, who do you assume is in charge? If there's a working relationship or if you see two people together, who do you assume, has the louder voice in, let's say household decisions? it's not always the man. And it sounds like what you're asking is, what if it's supposed to be at certain times or what if, the expectation at home is that you kind of step up into that?

[00:11:18] Alan: Even when it doesn't, maybe it doesn't even feel like the right time.

[00:11:21] Hector: Yeah, if we're kind of exploring this, as this happens, What's interesting is that as it's progressing, as the weekend is going on, it could be that the toddlers are just continuing to, do what toddlers do, and, my rope is, running out, perhaps it could just even be in the acceptance of it, in this fighting of what am I, there was a lot of that at the beginning. Well, what am I doing here? Watching the kids, and you're out there, working, you're out there hunting and I had to sit there and, and. I haven't shared this much on, some of the conversations, but this machismo kind of attitude that is so prevalent especially, you know, I'm, Mexican and Hispanic, and is, so dominant in that culture I've had to unpeel some of these mindsets that I didn't even realize were programmed in there that were so like foundational that it's like, why, why?

[00:12:07] Hector: why am I getting upset that she's out working and I'm at home with the kids? why do I get upset at that? Like, I'm, sitting there trying to figure out why my body is all hyper reactive, simply because she's at work and I'm not, so that was its own kind of awakening, if you will.

[00:12:22] Alan: Yeah. so then you're asking yourself, what part of me is being triggered with all of this, and where does it come from and what's missing? in this situation maybe that I crave in some way, that I wasn't even aware of before I started having the thought.

[00:12:33] Hector: Yeah, it's great in that regard because you start to assess, okay, what is it, What is it that's causing that? And I think it's helpful because so many of the challenges that we've had in our relationship recently stemmed. from that, and it would've been great if we could have gone back eight, nine, however long this period has been.

[00:12:50] Hector: much longer than I would've liked and said, here's what it is, dude. This is the problem. This is, this is where it's coming from. It was like an onion, It's like in Shrek, it's like it was peeling back one layer. And I was like, okay. I thought that was a problem.

[00:13:03] Hector: I thought I'd figure it out and then, nope, there it is again. And it was appealing of another and another, and who, you know, it's probably to the fact of, I'm not even at the core of it yet, but at least, at least that's been a, journey that has helped, Is being open to that as opposed to, a year ago I would've, been pointing the finger outward and saying, no, the problems are out there.

[00:13:22] Hector: Not my responses to whatever's happening.

[00:13:26] Alan: Absolutely.

[00:13:27] Hector: So, would love to talk about the book a little bit because I think it's foundational. I think guys will, really appreciate it. So go back to the beginning, like, as you think is relevant. And then let's start there and then just kind of catch us up on what it is and how you think guys who are out there, Dealing with all this stuff might be able to apply some of the things that are in there.

[00:13:47] Alan: okay, so I'm an executive and leadership coach, and I work with leaders at. Pretty much all levels of organizations. And one of the things that I noticed, back a couple years ago now was that analogies were coming up in coaching conversations all the time. And it could be something that a client just kind of spills out as they're having a coaching conversation with me.

[00:14:07] Alan: It could be something that I. Thought of off the top of my head during a conversation and just threw it out there as a way of helping them reframe what's going on. or I might have been thinking about a coaching conversation in hindsight after it had happened and something popped into my mind, that related to it in some way, by way of analogy.

[00:14:24] Alan: And so I was collecting these things for a few months during 2021 before I realized I've got enough to collect them into a book. So I wrote a book, my wife, who's an elementary school art teacher, did some fantastic illustrations for it, one for every analogy in the book. And we have 52, there's one for every week of the year.

[00:14:40] Alan: And they're related to many aspects of leadership and things that people confront when they are leaders in organizations or in life. So we talk about communication, we talk about mindset, we talk about relationships. And what I have found is that the analogy is a very powerful tool for just helping somebody do a simple reframe of the situation that they're stuck in.

[00:15:00] Alan: So it's hard to be stuck in something for too long if you start to see it a different way. And I think that's one of the real benefits that having a coach offers. and one of the ways that coaches do that is through analogy or metaphor. So you'll see that in the pages of the book as well.

[00:15:14] Hector: So based on what we've talked about and kind of knowing your perspective, how is leadership different than what most guys might think or most guys might have grown up thinking that leadership is.

[00:15:26] Alan: Yeah. Well, I think, there's a perfect parallel to what we were talking about in terms of men in the household. So, I will come out and say as a man who has held leadership positions, with fairly little controversy that the ranks of leadership in every type of organization are still overpopulated by men.

[00:15:43] Alan: we don't have the kind of representation of other genders that we need, and it's been that way for too long. So all that being said, it works differently than it used to, and I think most of it is for the good in that we don't have these top-down command and control, very directive, very hierarchical types of leadership as often anymore as we used to.

[00:16:02] Alan: So the idea that, you would come in. And your boss was somebody who was going to issue you commands and kind of direct how you did your job step by step and make sure that you were there all day and punch a clock. still common in some industries. Yes. But in the kind of work that I'm doing with my clients, in those parts of the economy, not that way anymore.

[00:16:21] Alan: It's collaborative. It is, decision making that is consensus driven rather than completely top-down. And I think what is happening is that leaders are realizing they're becoming more successful and therefore the people they lead are becoming more successful when they recognize and actually voice the idea of not having all the answers all the time.

[00:16:41] Alan: Not being the expert all the time, not being completely in control all the time that, leaders are human. We have questions, we make mistakes, we have faults. We don't always know what to do. And so old model is you gotta look like you're the smartest person in the room all the time. New model is you hire the smartest person in the room and have them work for you so that you can together get to the better answers than you would've if you were on your own.

[00:17:07] Hector: the idea of control a big thing that keeps coming up. I for sure, in this conversation, and it's been a theme that's ran through a lot of these, That is, changing. so much of the drive to quote unquote succeed was, I'd imagine driven by control,

[00:17:23] Hector: the ability, if I, move up this ladder, then I get to run the factory, Then I get to run the company as. Businesses are evolving and things are becoming a lot flatter, organizationally, hierarchically. I'd imagine that, drive is going away have we found what is on the other side of that?

[00:17:41] Hector: Do we know what the, perhaps positive side to that coin is?

[00:17:44] Alan: I think we do, and I think it's a spread of possibilities. And if there's one thing I think that, certainly covid and the impact that the pandemic had on the working world, but also this turn towards so many more people becoming self-employed as I have, is that we have a lot of different choices.

[00:18:03] Alan: And for some of us, they're choices that existed all along. And for some of us they're new, but your career trajectory and the way you get there, it looks very different now than it did 20, 30 years ago. And one of the things that I'm hearing fairly frequently from clients, is what they don't want. So I think we've gotten pretty clear on what that is and our ability to make choices that affect our careers.

[00:18:26] Alan: And I'm hearing a lot, I don't wanna be the ceo, I don't wanna be the executive director. I'm content to be a couple of levels deep. I'm content to be an individual contributor because I know what the trade-offs are because I've seen my boss doing it and it's not interesting to me. And I say, how wonderful that you know that about yourself.

[00:18:44] Alan: How wonderful that you're not gonna be headed down a road that's gonna make you unhappy, versus just kind of chasing the thing that everybody expects you to chase.

[00:18:52] Hector: Well, yeah, I think that there was this, fixation on being ceo, even a founder. I saw someone said that they were going to join a company as a founder.

[00:19:02] Alan: to join a company as a founder.

[00:19:04] Hector: Yeah. I said, okay. I think we've gone off the deep end here.

[00:19:07] Alan: But it's that, association with rank and title and status that I think was so much a part of, at least I was taught as like a man, A man goes out, makes a lot of money, gets a beautiful woman, gets really strong, gets big muscles like they do those three things and then if they don't, they are less, or the ones that, there's that intuit or that, built in premise Yeah. Well, I think, you know, at the risk of getting slightly political, I see a bit of a parallel in terms of the way, our country is seen. Around the world and what its reputation has been over time, if we're not sort of dominating, the scene, somehow we've, become less than, or we've fallen short of our, founding ideals.

[00:19:47] Hector: Yeah, I've seen it happen personally, and I'm curious how you've seen this happen in the professional space or if you have seen this kind of thing. But, as my wife was working more and I was home with the kids more, friend was like, you know, a good friend and he meant well and, but he said, oh, you're playing Mr.

[00:20:04] Hector: Mom now. And it was kind of like a jab, I'm wondering if there is a, professional equivalent that is holding guys back you know, because at, that moment I was like, Hey, Dick, just parenting here. You know, like, what do you mean I'm being a dad? I'm being Mr. Dad here.

[00:20:19] Hector: and had I not had. Such a, firm grounding in who I was and what I was doing. I might have taken that as like, well, dang, maybe I shouldn't be doing this. or maybe that turns into resentment for my wife, or, it could have gone different ways other than I just threw it back at him and told him that he was a dick, but I'm wondering if that is happening in the professional world or it could be happening where, we're holding men back from being those genuine, authentic, compassionate, whatever the other side of that leadership, coin is.

[00:20:48] Alan: I think it's possible. Sure. a lot of the conversations that I end up having around vulnerability in the workplace are with, men. There is a fear there that, we could show too much. We might actually, display ourselves as emotional human beings or something along those lines.

[00:21:01] Alan: and I see the other side of it as well. I see, people of other genders being not as successful as they could, because the expectation on them is to either, be more or less male in a way. You know, I think we all have probably seen or heard the story from somebody we're close to about, women in the workplace, for example, being told that they will not advance, they can't succeed because being too much this or too little.

[00:21:24] Alan: That that's not the sort of thing that tends to happen to men in the workplace because there is an assumption that there'll be a certain way. and for the most part, I think it still kind of plays out like that.

[00:21:33] Hector: Yeah. I think that the, vulnerability part that you bring up is huge, and I hear it coming into more of the lexicon, but it, it might only be because I'm, hanging out in areas where, that is, becoming more, Okay. And I think our, world, as you mentioned, is becoming increasingly divergent in that regard.

[00:21:53] Hector: I'd love to go back to this analogies because I think that they're helpful We have so many different, places where we could be challenged, whether it's in our relationships or our health or at business or, with our kids.

[00:22:03] Hector: are there any favorite analogies that you go back to more often than not when you're dealing with, some of these dad, husband, entrepreneur challenges.

[00:22:13] Alan: Yeah, I think the one that comes to mind, when you tell the story is not one that I made up. and not one that's in my book, but it's one that we all know, and that is the idea of securing our own mask before helping others. the image of course is from the airplane. And if you're traveling with a small child or somebody who needs your help, you've gotta get your own oxygen flowing before you can help them.

[00:22:32] Alan: Otherwise, neither one of you will survive. And I think of this in the context of, men and men and families and, and what they're responsible for and what, everybody depends on them for. And you wanna kind of, Strike a balance. So you don't want to be the person who just kind of checks out.

[00:22:50] Alan: And you don't wanna be the person who's, got their feet up on the couch watching Netflix or something, while everybody else in the family is like doing all the things that make a family go. And at the same time, I think it's important to know boundaries. I think it's important to know limits and when you're depleted, what that looks like, how you see it coming, and how you kind of recharge and how you make space to recharge. think about what is necessary to make that happen in your life on a regular basis. And it's different for everybody. Think about what brings you joy and, think about things that you do or think about work on that are not part of your family, that still need to be part of your life because they give you energy.

[00:23:24] Alan: And try to carve out the time and space for those things, not at the expense of the other things that you're responsible for, but in addition to and as a way of kind of facilitating everything else that you carry and that you're responsible for in life.

[00:23:37] Hector: Yeah, it's a great analogy because if you think about it in that moment, it's, really compressed, So I'd imagine if you're ever in that kind of moment, you really only have a few seconds. And so if, you. Or doing what I would imagine I would do in that moment, which is start fiddling with my three-year-old, my daughter, right.

[00:23:53] Hector: Just fiddling with her thing. if I do that and it takes too long, you're not gonna like outgo me and then out goes everybody. And when we, you know, kind of expand that and extrapolate that into like a more life scenario, We get caught up. we get lost and we think that, oh, let me just fix this real quick.

[00:24:08] Hector: And then that real quick turns into a lot longer than we thought, and now we're burnt out and now we're sleep deprived and now we're screaming at 4:00 AM You know, it's like, it's a very slippery slope I know I rationalize myself out of in saying like, oh, I'm, I'm helping, I'm doing this for them, or I'm fixing their problem, or whatever.

[00:24:29] Hector: When in the long run, that's actually what is keeping everything, the way it is perhaps.

[00:24:34] Alan: Yeah, for sure. for sure.

[00:24:36] Hector: 52 weeks. Is there a reason that you guys landed on, like, I love the idea of, it being something that people can kind of do, throughout the year, there was one year where I read 50 books in a year It was great.

[00:24:48] Hector: I learned a lot. I implemented and integrated nothing.

[00:24:53] Hector: I, I was exposed to a ton of awesome ideas. I did absolutely nothing. And so I really like this idea how have you kind of broken it up? was there any intentionality to that or is there any insights that you have seen from people who have kind of taken it in that bite-sized piece I'd love for you to just talk about that a little bit.

[00:25:11] Alan: Yeah, absolutely. I think a couple of ideas come to mind. One is on my side, as the person who put it together. And I realized the space I was in might have been a little different from the space of the typical leadership development or current events type book that I'm used to reading. And I read a lot of those both, you know, for, for work and for pleasure.

[00:25:32] Alan: One is that there's tons of leadership books out there. You know, tens of thousands of them. If you pull up, you know, your favorite online bookstore and take a look and do a little search. Two, we have a lot of models. Four describing how the world works or how the principles of leadership should apply to your life.

[00:25:48] Alan: And I was not feeling especially compelled to create another one of those. And three, At the time that this all came together, I did not see myself as having the expertise or the attention span to do a deep dive, to do research on one particular topic and come up with, the end result of hundreds of, and hundreds of pages on that topic.

[00:26:06] Alan: There's plenty of authors who do that for a living, and they do it brilliantly, and it's just not me. It's not the way that my brain was working at the moment when I started on this project. So what I wanted was a collection of bite-sized pieces, and that's what ended up. So there are a bunch of different ways you can use this material.

[00:26:23] Alan: You can read it cover to cover, and some people have, I have certainly my editor did. you can also keep it on your nightstand and read one or two of them a night until you get through, bit by bit, piece by piece. it could be bathroom reading, it could be a, a reference that you keep on your desk for situations that come up.

[00:26:38] Alan: And you're gonna look up, what analogies might apply to that situation as you're having the, the situation develop. So I wanted it to be kind of multi-use, multi audience, but also not that sort of 300 page heavy lift that might have a little bit of trouble sticking to your brain.

[00:26:53] Alan: only because I have great respect and admiration for the people who do write books like that. And I didn't see myself as being able to, do something similar.

[00:27:01] Hector: Yeah, well it's great, awareness there and I think that that bite-sized nature is, really helpful. is it available on all the popular bookstores or where, should people go to get it?

[00:27:11] Alan: Absolutely, you can visit the soup book.com for kind of the rundown of where it is available, but pretty much anywhere. You can go on a website and buy a book. You'll find it, uh, and it's available in print and also ebook. the ebook version is, very, very inexpensive. I did not do this project to make a lot of money.

[00:27:26] Alan: I was interested in getting the material into as many hands as possible, so kind of hard to beat the immediacy of, the ebook, although I have to say when the thing was printed and it first arrived in my house and I could hold it in my hand, that was pretty amazing.

[00:27:38] Hector: Yeah, I imagine so. so cool. is there any other place that people can go get connected with you, whether it's online or, websites? anywhere people can follow up.

[00:27:47] Alan: Absolutely. my website is peaceful direction.com. That's the hub for my coaching practice. People can find me and contact me there. I'm also on LinkedIn, which is the only form of social media that I use at the moment.

[00:27:57] Hector: I love it. My last question for you, Alan, is what does modern masculinity mean to you?

[00:28:01] Alan: Modern masculinity to me means something that is evolving. It means something that we need to keep having conversations about so we can keep understanding it, rather than a fixed model that I think too many of us have been living with for too long. and it means being uncomfortable sometimes. It means making mistakes.

[00:28:18] Alan: It means doing things that other people would not expect of us, and perhaps, violating the expectations of others in some way. So I think it means, Nothing that strictly defined with a definition that's gonna stay that way for a while. And what I look forward to is continuing the conversation, with those who are interested because I think it's a topic that's close to me and, maybe close to a lot of us.

[00:28:39] Hector: Yeah. Lots of flavors. Lots of flavors.

[00:28:43] Hector: so we appreciate you guys hanging out with us. If you guys enjoyed today's episode, we would love a rating, a review, wherever you get your podcast.

[00:28:49] Hector: If you know someone, if you know a guy who's going through something, maybe they need some support or they're just looking for some connection, send 'em this episode and then, love for you guys to connect with Alan and myself on LinkedIn and Twitter for myself as well at Hector podcast. But we appreciate you being part of the tribe.

[00:29:07] Hector: We'll see you on the next one later, y'all.

[00:29:09] Alan: Thanks.