Ditch the Nice Guy Act and Become a Leader with Jake Isaacs

[00:00:00] Hector: Fellas what's going on. I hope this episode finds you well. And I hope this episode leaves you better than when it found you. Today's episode is with Jake Isaacs and he is the leader of a group called gathering the Kings. And it's a, mastermind of business leaders mostly, but what I really love about it is , it's a really Holistic sort of group that focuses on, you know, really empowering guys and, and women as well, but mostly guys to really not only become the best versions of themselves, but create the best business and create the best life for themselves.

[00:01:04] Hector: And we actually had the other. Founder of it, Chaz Wolf on previously. And so I'd encourage you to go back and listen to that episode. It's a fantastic conversation. This one is a little different and you'll see why it's different. We really just talk about, you know, the journey of, of a man and really someone who is You're doing all of the right things and doing what other people say they should be doing and kind of focused on serving and helping and, and, and what that, you know, some of the challenges that might occur when you, you know, try and be there so much for, for other people.

[00:01:39] Hector: And so. , it's a really good conversation it was a great conversation to have. Right. And, and yeah, there were some, some fun moments, but I think more importantly, a really impactful conversation that I know is going to be relevant to, to any guy who listens to this, uh, no matter sort of what stage, uh, or, or what journey or, or challenge they're going through.

[00:01:59] Hector: So anyways, let's get into today's episode with Jake Essex.

[00:02:04] Hector: Jake, welcome to the modern masculinity podcast. How are you, my man?

[00:02:08] Jake: honored to be here, Hector. I'm a huge fan of the show, so this is just a great honor for me. Thank you.

[00:02:12] Hector: I appreciate that. , I received that. I've gotten a couple of messages over the last day or so of people who are enjoying the show. And hopefully if you're here, if you're not enjoying it, turn it off, go find something else. There's no one forcing you to listen.

[00:02:27] Hector: Maybe, Maybe that is happening. , I don't know. But Jake, one thing that we try and do is to have us take us into the guest world because I found that a lot of shows start with the tell me how great you are and all the awesome and amazing things you are and all the accolades and you're, , your resume and that's all cool and great, but that's not the show. So, , take us into what's real for you as a man. And what I found is we carry a lot of weight or a lot of responsibilities, , we carry a heavy load from variety of things in our life and some things are current and things that we hold on to, , and such, but take us into your world and, and some of the things that you're working through.

[00:03:02] Jake: Yeah, no, I appreciate that. I've always been a student, right? When I got out of high school, I thought that I was never going to read another book ever the rest of my life. and someone that I respected got ahold of me in college and said, Hey, Listen, Jake, all leaders are readers. If you want to be a leader of man, you need to be a reader.

[00:03:18] Jake: Not all readers are leaders, but definitely if you're a leader, you're a reader. And that really started my self development journey reading to improve and grow and be a better man and a better contributing member of society. just recently as I've been trying to evolve and grow and learn from my past mistakes and optimize for the future and all the things that are, important to me.

[00:03:38] Jake: I've just been kind of working through what does identity look like, what identity serves me and how do I grow into new identities? I'm co founder of an organization called gathering the Kings. It's a, entrepreneurial community. And, one of my, my good friends that I met through gathering the Kings is a guy by the name of Matt Kuhlhorn.

[00:03:54] Jake: And he challenged me about a year and a half ago around a, a topic called the identity shield. And with this idea of the identity shield, it's like, who are you and who do you want to become? and do those narratives about yourself serve you. And so in that conversation, Hector, about a year and a half ago, and this is the journey that I've been on.

[00:04:13] Jake: realized that the identity that I had been carrying for so much of my life as an adult, Probably didn't serve me anymore and I needed to do something about that.

[00:04:20] Hector: Yeah, I just got back from a wonderful retreat from a new friend, David mutner. it was a singer songwriting retreat and I'm neither, at least I wasn't before the weekend, but it's interesting because the thing that I had always told myself growing up about being able to sing or my voice was that I can't sing or I don't sing.

[00:04:39] Hector: And when I go back to why I have that sort of mindset, it was back in, I believe either fifth or sixth grade, there was a TV show that came to our school and said, Hey, we're having this, Catholic, , choir boy scene and you guys are a Catholic school. So we need your fifth and sixth grade boys to sing.

[00:04:57] Hector: To come in and be on this TV show. And so the choir director was really excited and it was this big deal. And Oh my goodness, all the boys. And, , it was like this whole thing. And so we were trying out for the different roles and who was going to do whatever During the episode of the recording.

[00:05:12] Hector: And so she had each boy kind of come up and sing like a solo or match a note or deuce, do something where you had to sing by yourself. And so I'm, coming up and Jesus, I'm nervous and I've never sung before. And, also, , if I'm being frank back then. , if you sang in the choir at a Catholic school, well, then you were gay.

[00:05:28] Hector: And so I go up and I don't even know what I sounded like, but what she told me was, she said, okay, when we go, she said, don't actually sing, just move your mouth, but don't make it have any sound come out.

[00:05:39] Hector: And I said. Okay. Got it. I locked that in, I was, probably 10 or 11 at that time. So for 20, 20 plus years of my life, I didn't allow myself , To do that, , to experience that. And just this past weekend, , really kind of going through all of that. , it was a whole process, but at the end, we all performed our own song that we wrote and we, I didn't write the chords, but we figured out the chords and I had some help from my friend, Dave.

[00:06:02] Hector: And, , he played it there live and we, we had a microphone and it was, , It was just really cool thing. , , , it was a, it was a country ballad, And so all that to say, , a lot of these things that we hold in our head about our,, mindset or, you know, about who we are, not only do they not serve us, they're oftentimes not even given to, they're not even from us. And we take that and, keep it with us, for better or worse, , oftentimes,

[00:06:26] Jake: Yeah, no, it's a hundred percent true. , as you're telling this story, the first thing that came to my mind was I had a, a similar experience when I was young, I was at boy scout camp I was going out for water skiing, merit badge Hector, and I don't know if you could tell, but I'm on the larger side of humans and so.

[00:06:41] Jake: I couldn't get myself up out of the water. And this instructor said, Oh, you'll never be able to water ski. You're too fat. You're not strong enough. All of the things. Right. And, I haven't tried water skiing since then. And it's just funny that you allow those things to shape the narrative of your life.

[00:06:57] Hector: and I think that it's perhaps part of life, right? I, I think ultimately there are these, things that, occur to us at the early stages of our life and , our sort of, , journey, whether it's personal or spiritual, however you want to look at it, it's the sort of undo or repair or mend grow from these wounds, if you will.

[00:07:15] Jake: Yeah, I a hundred percent agree. And, regardless of how much effort you put into it. Your kids are going to hold their own baggage from their childhood. You can be super dad and it's still going to end up that way. And unfortunately that's just a part of life. When I talk to people and they're like, Oh, my parents fucked me up so bad.

[00:07:30] Jake: And yeah, but they did the best they could. can we have a little bit of grace around that? it just kind of is what it is. And sometimes you just got to grow and move on.

[00:07:36] Hector: ultimately, we're the ones that would have to live with this reality that we have created, that's the wonderful and also fucked up part is that we have created this reality that we are living in. And if, we want to change it, is again, fighting a current is futile.

[00:07:53] Jake: Yeah. And I just believe I'm in control. Of the way that my life goes. if I want to be a victim and blame everyone else around me, I'm not going to get to the places that I want to get to in life, I'm not going to accomplish the things that I want to accomplish, and so, I just have chosen to take back that control and, be the author of my own story.

[00:08:12] Hector: Yeah, it's interesting for me because, , we share a common life event in, , a marriage that didn't work out the way that we wanted it to and at that moment, there's this rewriting of this journey and going back to this weekend, what really saw is this moment of, of writing the end of that book, , closing the book.

[00:08:31] Hector: Yeah. And at the same time, giving myself permission to write a new story. I think that's also a thing that perhaps a lot of guys, and I imagine that everybody suffers with it, but that we hold on to these things about ourselves because that's who we are, why do you have to be that Only you're the one saying that you have to be that, , I'm five, six, I don't know if I'm getting any taller.

[00:08:51] Hector: I'm kind of stuck in that, even my kids go, are you, dad, are you getting any taller? And I go, I don't think so. , maybe they're questioning, , they're starting to do their, their judgments and their bets on where they're going to end up. But like, outside of, of maybe something like that, , there's, there's a malleability And in who we are, and I don't know that enough for short guys, younger guys are leaning into what that really means.

[00:09:17] Jake: Yeah. you had a guest a couple of weeks ago, or maybe it's been a couple of months ago the author of the book, no more, Mr. Nice Guy. If your listeners haven't listened to that, I would highly recommend pausing this episode, going back and listening to that first.

[00:09:29] Jake: But that was just a really good conversation for me personally, because it illuminated some things about my past, that I knew were there, but I didn't have language for. And that's one of the things that I love about being a lifetime learner is by encountering new things, by experiencing new things, I'm constantly putting language to things that I'm experiencing.

[00:09:48] Jake: Or that I've experienced that I couldn't articulate well. And so I think that's one of the beauties of learning. And so I appreciate you having him on. I appreciate you having the show and making space for those types of conversations, because when I reflect back on my first marriage, I'm twice divorced.

[00:10:01] Jake: When I reflect back on my first marriage, really the reason why we got divorced is because we were in misalignment of the gender roles inside of our marriage. We got married fairly young and I knew Hector before I walked into the church the morning of the wedding that I shouldn't marry her. Like it was very clear.

[00:10:17] Jake: I had a heavenly download. Like this is not your person. This is not going to end well, but I toughed it out for an additional seven years, and she's a fantastic person. She's doing amazing things in her life. Three years into our marriage, she came to me, we both dropped out of college at the time. And so we decided to go back and both finish our, bachelor's degrees. And she came to me and she's like, Hey, I'm getting ready to wrap up my bachelor's degree. I think I want to continue on and go to law school and I want to be a lawyer and a politician. And fine. Great. I support you. I love you. We're building this thing together. If that's what you think that you want to be, it's important to me that our children are, raised by us.

[00:10:50] Jake: We're not farming out our children to a daycare for 12 hours a day we are the ones that are instilling values. And so if you feel like you need to be a politician and a lawyer and, drive the ship financially for our family, I'm going to figure out a vocation that I can work in that will allow me to stay home with our children we didn't end up having kids in that relationship. Because I let her lead in that situation and I took the backseat. One of the reasons why she stated for filing for divorce was, she thought that I was viewing her as a sugar mama, which was just not the case. I didn't lean into my masculine role as the husband in that relationship.

[00:11:26] Jake: and her and I's wires got crossed on what our responsibilities were, who we were supposed to be for each other and how we were supposed to build out our family. Ultimately it's the thing that sank us.

[00:11:36] Hector: Fucking near here, brother. , and I had another conversation this past weekend with someone who became a friend when we spent a lot of time together. And he's going through a similar situation and I don't, I try not to give advice. I can only give, , my experience and what I just told him after, , sharing a similar experience.

[00:11:56] Hector: And I've shared that story on the show a number of times here, but essentially that it matters right now. I would never say don't I actually, , I don't know what the right thing is. So that's why can't say I would never, but I wouldn't say yet to say, no, don't let your wife go out and work to make her ass stay at home.

[00:12:13] Hector: Like, I don't know that I would say that yet. And also if the roles are switched and she is the breadwinner, that is going to fuck something up. that needs to be accounted for. I'm not saying that it can't be counted for. It just needs to be accounted for. And if it goes on unchecked, right on unnoticed, there isn't some sort of adjustment, right?

[00:12:36] Hector: Intentional adjustment. I can't tell you how many people who I've seen who are like us would go, well, , it's fucking, we'll, we'll make the shift for sure. And then. know. Maybe it wasn't meant to work in the first place. don't know. Like I'd fucking, I don't know the answers.

[00:12:50] Hector: I just know that I haven't seen it work out yet.

[00:12:53] Jake: Yeah. The reason I referenced that book, no more, Mr. Nice guy is because. it's this concept of happy wife, happy life. Right. And I thought by, as the man I needed to go low and make sure that my wife's dreams were being accounted for. Really what I was doing is I was proving to her that I couldn't be trusted, that I, couldn't handle my end of the bargain.

[00:13:14] Jake: And. It's such a crazy conversation to have because I am not this guy that like all women have to stay home, similar to what you just said, right? Like I'm not going to say no, that you can't go out and work or your role is. At home, taking care of the kids, making sure that there's food on the table when I get home.

[00:13:30] Jake: I'm not misogynistic like that, but I also believe that there are very defined roles that are supposed to work inside of a relationship. And those need to be communicated. And we didn't do a good job of communicating what our intentions were. On the grander scheme as we were trying to architect our relationship together.

[00:13:46] Hector: Yeah. The other fucked up part is that you look up and you go, Oh, I thought I was doing the right thing. ? Like that happy wife, happy life thing. I can't tell you how many times I heard how much I heard that bullshit. And if I can just go back to every dude who said that and be like, yo, what the fuck?

[00:14:02] Hector: you're, bullshitting me, right? They would go like, yeah, I'm actually bullshitting. I don't believe that. , I don't believe it in my heart of hearts. I'm just saying it because, once again, they are a Mr. Nice Guy. And , that's what they think they should say to make her happy.

[00:14:16] Hector: And it's a, fine line, right? Cause you could take this episode out of context and I don't think we're at the point where I'm getting clipped up on the internet, but you could take this out of context and think that it sounds misogynistic. That's not what we're trying to say what I'm checking in addition to your roles thing, I think that there are polarities and there are energies that need to be maintained.

[00:14:37] Hector: And, , we're talking about modern masculinity here. So whether you are a man or a woman, I don't know. But if you are holding that masculine pole in the relationship, there are things contribute and detract from that polarity. And the moment that that polarity starts to go, the attraction quickly follows when the traction goes, the reasons for staying quickly follow, That's how people end up in these loveless marriages. Because those polarities are not, in my experience, are not being properly maintained.

[00:15:07] Jake: I think that's a hundred percent right. and to bring this back full circle to how we started the conversation, , it's this identity that I had as. The head of a household or as this male figure that needed to self sacrifice for everyone around me to make sure that their needs were met, to make sure that their dreams were met.

[00:15:24] Jake: And the whole time that I'm walking out this identity of this protector, I called it the sheep dog. The whole time I'm walking out this identity of the sheep dog, the person that suffers is me, right? I don't take care of myself. I don't do the things that I need to do for myself in order to truly be the man that I was thinking.

[00:15:40] Jake: Designed and intended to be

[00:15:43] Hector: . I've even realized, , in a weird sort of way, , I looked for the fucked up ness and I go, , oh, I can fix that. I think that's in the movie, is it Holes? Or is that, I don't know if you've seen that movie. But there's the guy, , when they go back in time It's actually a very sad part of the movie, but he goes, I can fix that.

[00:16:01] Hector: , he's just the handyman. And that's the challenge that's what I thought was the MO. I saw things like that and I was like, Oh, that's the playbook. I can do that for sure. Do whatever she wants. Sure. Don't cause conflict. Make sure she's happy. Wait on a hand and foot.

[00:16:15] Hector: Cool. I can do that. Whatever you say. Like I can do that. You show me, tell me what to do. I can do that. the challenge with that exact mentality is , like, you're sure you could, but it's, she's not going to like it. And you're like, what? And then also you're like, what do you mean? That's the fucked up part.

[00:16:30] Hector: If you do what she wants, she doesn't like it. What?

[00:16:34] Jake: what you're talking about right now is, what has blown my mind around the dating scene. have always been described as this nice person, whatever you want to call it, right? Women who are not attracted to someone like me, but attracted to the guy that's a total fuck up who doesn't have his shit together.

[00:16:49] Jake: That's a little bit dangerous. That is probably a little bit reckless in their life that has poor decision making skills, right? I don't understand why that's who I'm competing against. Well, it's because in reality, she doesn't want you to wait on her hand and foot. She wants it to be a little bit difficult, in the book, wild at heart by John Eldridge, which is a fantastic book.

[00:17:07] Jake: It changed my life. But it talks about, little boys need an adventure. Little boys need to storm the castle to run the beach of Normandy. They want to be the princess in the story. They want to be the center of attention and the affection where I missed interpreted that book was, it was my responsibility to make her feel like the princess. It's not my responsibility. It's my responsibility to take the hill, let her know that she's valued.

[00:17:29] Hector: Right. , not get caught up , in going in and necessarily, if you save the princess, , but lose the mission. Lose the war?, now the princess is captured,

[00:17:37] Jake: Exactly. A hundred percent,

[00:17:38] Hector: right? Like if you're Mario and yeah, you get princess, , peach and then Bowser still wins. Like you're fucked.

[00:17:43] Jake: You're, you're living in a terrible world.

[00:17:45] Hector: It's a great movie, by the way. I've seen that movie a number of times and I keep watching it.

[00:17:49] Jake: I can't even imagine how much you've had to watch that with your kids.

[00:17:52] Hector: Yeah, it's one of those ones that like you can put on and they enjoy it. , and also, , there's good storytelling in there and the whole thing, , , it's not. Well, it's not Disney, so there's that , first mention on the show.

[00:18:02] Jake: , that song , that Jack Black sings peaches, peaches, peaches. , it's like, I've got two nieces and if we need to get pumped up for something, that's the song we're listening to.

[00:18:10] Hector: Yeah, this is interesting because recently asked, Josh Wenner, a previous guest of the show. I messaged him cause he made some posts , on Instagram. Recently, and I asked him, I said, do you think that John Mayer love exists and, you may know who John Mayer is. Right? So for you, that might make sense.

[00:18:25] Hector: I said that recently to , another friend and he was more, I don't want to say urban culture. That sounds more racist today. he, , It's African American. He didn't know who John Mayer was. And so I was like, okay, it's more like temptations, right?

[00:18:37] Hector: I'm going to give everything of me because I love, , because I love you and because , you complete me. Right. I use the example of , my girl, I can't tell you how many times I've listened to that song growing up.

[00:18:49] Hector: And I listened to it at a super impressionable age where I was like, Oh, this is the script for love. I'm like, okay, yeah, , you find someone and then they become your everything. And the problem with that is that for a while, maybe they enjoy it. Right. But going back to what we were talking about after a while, if that becomes the only script and you don't have a mission of your own, you don't have your own sense of self.

[00:19:13] Hector: You don't have guy time or hobbies or . All these things that sort of contribute to that, you become less attractive. , there's less of that polarity. There's less of that everything. , all that stuff matters. And his answer though, when I asked him, I said, , do you still believe that it's out there?

[00:19:26] Hector: He goes, , yes, definitely. And everybody I've asked, they still say that they believe that there is . Whatever you want to call it, whether it's true love or whether it's whatever it is, , that that sort of thing is out there. And I go, okay. All right. I'll keep , my eyes and my heart open.

[00:19:41] Jake: Yeah, I know that it's still out there because I've had the fortune of being in rooms and witnessing it. , one of the things that we do through gathering the Kings is we curate a family mastermind experience every single summer where we bring in families, not just entrepreneurs, but husbands and wives and their children for a week long vacation.

[00:19:59] Jake: And inside of that experience, it's one that network with high performing entrepreneurs. It's two to have great memories as a family, but three, we bring in certified marriage coaches , and help people. Intentionally work through and grow their marriages. And so I've had this unique experience the last couple of years of sitting in the back of the room, watching men and women hard on up leveling their relationship, because the most important partnership, we say it's the mastermind.

[00:20:24] Jake: The most important mastermind that you have is your spouse and to be in the room and watch men and women work intentionally to grow that it's beautiful. I mean, some of the most. Romantic picturesque couples. I know I met in that environment.

[00:20:39] Hector: Yeah. So , I'm keeping my, Like I said, my eyes and my heart open. One of the other things that I appreciate about you, Jake, is that you have seemed to have a unique ability to sort of cultivate, , a community, an authentic community. And I have found that , , the true that when I see that I go, , that's not on accident.

[00:20:58] Hector: That's usually the mark , of the leader. And we talked about, , your partner , or, , Chaz, who, , is also one of the other whatever's in, gathering the Kings, he's a brilliant guy and he brings a ton of great frameworks and mindsets and is , a really great teacher, but I mentioned before we started recording that it seems like you, brought the heart, of the group.

[00:21:18] Hector: And I think that becomes the glue that brings and sticks things together , from a guy's sort of perspective, because I also think like, oh, and also Jake is like a guy's guy. So how do you reconcile those two?

[00:21:31] Hector: Or how do you think about, the idea of cultivating a community and authentic community, , , of primarily dudes and guys.

[00:21:39] Jake: Great question. male loneliness is a real thing and we find ourselves, especially post COVID in an environment where, more often than not men are isolating themselves from the people around them, because of either shame, because they don't connect with someone, because they don't understand how.

[00:21:57] Jake: , let's be honest, making friends as an adult sucks. It's hard to make new friends. You have to go intentionally put yourself inside of environments. We just have been very intentional inside of gathering the Kings. We want to find like minded individuals. This is not a money grab for us. If you're not a fit around the values that we are trying to cultivate, , we can refer you out to other groups.

[00:22:16] Jake: That'll be a better fit. and once you're inside the environment, cultivate authenticity by just being real with each other. Right. I care deeply. I know that there's a calling on my life for discipleship, and I want to make sure that everyone in my life is working towards the best. Version of themselves because I'm working on the best version of myself.

[00:22:35] Hector: Yeah, it's really interesting, only cause it's fresh and it was just, I got back from the trip just a couple of days ago. And so this is, my first recording for this show. Since that event. And what was interesting is, , I got there and I guess I was one of the first ones to show up and , I just hop in and I just start sharing stuff, right?

[00:22:53] Hector: Like I just start, , throwing all my shit on the table because I've learned that seems to do something to the group, because all of a sudden the group, , doesn't feel like they have to wear a mask or have some front,

[00:23:05] Hector: and I think just intuitively, I knew that it was not inauthentic. So I just didn't like being around that. And also I realized that , if that weird somebody out and my sort of issues and shit makes you feel some type of way and you don't like me because of it, , fantastic. We've got that out of the way quicker.

[00:23:22] Hector: , at least we didn't have to go back and forth. And I ended up finding that the people that I'm able to connect with the people that are drawn or whatever you can think about however you like end up being the right sort of people , , and people end up mentioning why you're very, , open on the thing.

[00:23:35] Hector: It makes it easier for me because then I can just weed through all the bullshit. , and not have to figure out if you're a bullshitter. Cause usually if you are, you're like, Oh shit, he's going to, , I don't have to share my shit too. , and that usually , doesn't line up with those types

[00:23:49] Jake: Yeah, the problem is we let shame rule our decisions and there are things that have happened in your life that you're not proud of and that you hold shame, guilt, grief, whatever over the reality is if you would just talk about that stuff, if you would just let the armor down and be true. About your life experience, your very unique life experience to the people around you.

[00:24:10] Jake: What you would learn is that, Hey, there are a lot of people who've dealt with the same bullshit that I've dealt with and they've overcome it. So I can overcome it and here's how they overcome it. And , this is now my roadmap. And it's one of the things that I appreciate about you, Hector, there is very much a, take it or leave it mentality in the way that you approach relationships.

[00:24:26] Jake: And it's great because of exactly what you're talking about. Like you're going to magnetize the right people to you , and the polarity to push people away that aren't the right people for you. And I don't think that there's anything wrong with that. We don't need to make sure that everyone around us likes us.

[00:24:40] Jake: And that's a common misconception.

[00:24:41] Hector: that was my barometer growing up. That was the MO was how do I people please everybody enough and not so much at the expense of myself that I will lose myself if it means that you like me. Because in my head, I would rather have that than like myself and once again, , there's this undoing process, but that was a big undoing who do you have to live with?

[00:25:05] Hector: Like them or you? And sometimes there's people that we have to live with as well. But oftentimes, that's not the case. And even so we're always with us. And so if we can't be happy with ourselves, what a fucked up sort of world to live in. And I think that I know that I lived in that world where when I really peeled off All of the layers and got down underneath all of the bullshit.

[00:25:29] Hector: It was like, no, you're not happy with yourself, dude. Cause you're not doing, what, , you should be doing. You're not standing up for yourself in the way that you should be. You're not setting boundaries. You're not pursuing the things that you want. You're making all these excuses.

[00:25:39] Hector: but like all of that, instead of listening , to myself right, I think is a big part of, of liking ourselves,

[00:25:46] Jake: No, I totally agree. It goes back to the identity piece, right? I was voted, friendliest person in my high school superlatives, right? And that has been something that has just stuck with me. I carry it around as a badge of honor for a long time. Like you said, and like I previously mentioned , it just wasn't serving me.

[00:26:03] Jake: If you haven't seen Ellen DeGeneres is new standup routine on Netflix. It's really good, highly recommend it. But she talks about this where, , she ended her talk show every single day telling people to be kind to other people. And then when she wasn't kind to someone, she got roasted for it. The problem with.

[00:26:18] Jake: Wearing this coat of the nice guy or the, . , jujitsu master or whatever it is, is when you aren't that person one time, everyone around you is going to call you out on it. And now you've got an identity crisis.

[00:26:32] Hector: yeah, talk about identity crisis. I think there's one other thing is that when we don't see what is so evident in other people sometimes, or at least , that's been the case for me. , it's interesting because At least in my experience, and I'm only a sample size of one, but people have always been telling us these things.

[00:26:51] Hector: It seems that it's only when we are ready to listen and accept that, do we actually internalize it. Because just this past weekend, someone said something to me, and it was only because I was in a state of receptivity and only in a state of openness where I was like, Okay, maybe I am that thing that you say I am.

[00:27:08] Hector: I would always deflect and I would always say no, no, and I would always, , push down and poo poo. , and for what nothing really changed externally, but I started to say, Oh, like, okay, , maybe that is true about me. , and what a better way to live and feel. , and I think that if that's the case, right, that's probably a sign that it's a little closer to the truth.

[00:27:28] Hector: Right. That if , our emotions, are an indication of our alignment to sort of our soul, right? My brief understanding of sort of these spiritual and emotional energies and like trying to figure out like, fucking, why am I so depressed? Well, because you believe something that is.

[00:27:44] Hector: Not true. , your soul , is screaming out to you that something else is true and you are not believing what is true. And that's what feels so painful. , and the closer that you move towards that truth, the better it feels. Anyways, I don't know how we got down that road, anything you want to add on there I got some other questions for you.

[00:28:03] Jake: No, I just, I agree with you on that.

[00:28:05] Hector: You said you like to read , I'm curious cause I'll share , when I started to really read and get into personal development or professional development, I read 50 books in one year. , I think it was like 2015 or something that was like, it was like, , it is awesome and I gained a lot of knowledge I didn't implement or execute shit, , so I started, , the next few years I started to try and read, , maybe if we were to quantify it, it was like a book a month, but I would try and read that book 20, 30, maybe.

[00:28:34] Hector: Times listen to it. 50 100 times, , try and really go deep as opposed to going really, really wide. Seems like from your response to that you're of a similar mind. How do you sort of approach reading as a whole? , just whether it's even from a growth point perspective or leisure perspective.

[00:28:51] Hector: Just talk to me how you look at it and incorporate that into your life.

[00:28:54] Jake: Yeah, that's such a good question because you're a hundred percent right. When I was younger, it was a vanity number for me, right? Like I had to read X number of books to prove to the people around me that I was better than. Or I was on this journey of self development, but it doesn't matter how many books you read.

[00:29:08] Jake: If you don't have a vehicle or the desire to implement the stuff that you're learning, what the fuck is the point of reading, right? And so I've really taken the approach the last 10 years or so. It's, I'm not reading for anyone else. This is not a vanity number. This is not something that I'm bragging about.

[00:29:22] Jake: I'm reading for myself and from the overflow of the knowledge that I have, I can give to other people. And so. There are a couple of books this year that I've read that I was like, Oh, dang, this is really good. I need to go back and read it again right now, or I'll listen to it on audible and then , I'll buy the hard copy.

[00:29:38] Jake: And now I'm reading , and listening at the same time and highlighting, and I'm trying to be a student, because. Reading to read is no different than sitting down and watching, , TV all afternoon. You have to apply it. It's just a waste of time if you don't apply it.

[00:29:53] Hector: Yeah. Any favorites that you think or any books that you feel might be relevant to. Obviously, No More Mr. Nice Guy, or Mr. Nice Guy, I'm not sure which one it is, by Dr. Robert Glover, who is a fucking badass. , he's such a, just an amazing guy. Are there any others that seem to be relevant to what we're going to cover today?

[00:30:11] Jake: The single most transformative book that I've ever read is Wild at Heart by John Eldridge. And it talks about just, That journey of a little boy finding himself in manhood and recognizing a spiritual father and how that relationship plays out. His wife wrote a companion book to Wild at Heart.

[00:30:29] Jake: Called Captivating, and it's about the woman's heart, which I think is also a very good read. I recommend to all of my single female friends that they need to read Wild at Heart. I recommend to all of my single male friends that they need to read Captivating, because I think that it is a good insight into how the other sex is wired.

[00:30:48] Jake: The single greatest success book ever written is thinking, grow rich by Napoleon Hill. And so I'm a student of that book. I read it a couple of times a year,

[00:30:56] Hector: I was trying to convey that to my kids the other day, where I was like, if you could just get this, I think the word of it is called mentalism. I think is what it's called from, , the hermetic principles, which is essentially that everything is created with your mind. I was like, if you could just get that.

[00:31:12] Hector: If I had that at six or seven or whatever, , the power, both literally and figuratively that gives somebody, to be able to do, because I think that like, once you get that, , then life becomes, I don't know if it's always fun, but at least it can become,

[00:31:27] Hector: I feel like, but then it gets juicy, going back to , the first book that you mentioned, what is the name of it, by the way,

[00:31:32] Jake: wild at heart.

[00:31:33] Hector: wild at heart.

[00:31:34] Hector: So we'll link that up in the show notes. I'm going to go read that. But I think this concept , of, a spiritual evolution, , or we talked about roles , or energetics or polarities, right? , who knows who's listening to this, but if you are occupying that, that masculine pull in your identity or in a relationship or whatever it is that you're doing, then I think that there are some fundamental steps that someone needs to go through, right?

[00:32:00] Hector: There are some fundamental . And I think one part of it that you mentioned is like accepting and yielding to, I don't know if a word that's coming to my mind. It's like a master, right? But essentially yield yielding to the fact that there is something greater than you.

[00:32:16] Hector: And with, that, I think there's this, like a boy doesn't do that. A boy thinks he's the greatest, the hottest shit out there. , but , a man is more tuned into reality and with, it comes power, right? With that becomes the ability , to grow from it.

[00:32:30] Hector: So, those are some of the thoughts that come to mind when I hear a book like that. But, but I'm excited to read it.

[00:32:36] Jake: Yeah. , my mind was really unlocked when I realized the greatest athlete of my generation and I'll, I'll go toe to toe and fight anyone about it is Michael Jordan. And when you think about him as a transformative athlete for an entire generation, and he still had a coach, that's incredible.

[00:32:51] Jake: The humbleness that it takes to put yourself in a mentor mentee learning relationship is I think real power, right? It's what we're trying to cultivate inside of gathering the Kings. , the filter that we let people join gathering the Kings is the thought process of grateful, but not done. I recognize I've, experienced some stuff and I've accomplished some stuff, but there's more out there and I need to learn and I need to grow and I need to continue to, develop myself so I can reach new heights.

[00:33:17] Hector: Yeah. And to piggyback on that, , fact check this, but word on the street is either. I heard it at a party or I do so many of these episodes that like it maybe is on a previous episode, but I heard somewhere that, , Michael Phelps, the same guy who taught coach Michael Phelps, I was the same guy who coached, the French athlete that just this past Olympics went out and broke all those records.

[00:33:38] Hector: Right. And so when you look at it, From an up close perspective, Michael Phelps looks like he's amazing and oh, he's so great. And then you zoom out a little bit and realize, well, he actually had, , the Phil Jackson of swim coaches at the helm. And in the same way, , going to your example, , Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan, right?

[00:33:55] Hector: Both of them didn't win any championships without, the same guy who, coached them. And so in a same way, We as I'm going to say we as men, because I do think this is a fatherly like role, sometimes are playing the role of the Yoda. we're not Luke Skywalker.

[00:34:12] Hector: We're not necessarily the hero of that story where we are the, guide. We are , , the mentor and how equally of an important role that is in a story as well.

[00:34:23] Jake: I agree a hundred percent. And to take that a little bit farther, there's this misconception that I can pound my chest. I am, man, hear me roar. I'm going to do it all by myself. , , this lone wolf mentality that somehow has been perversed through our society. You need mentorship and you need to mentor because that's how you truly start understanding things.

[00:34:43] Jake: So you can't do it alone.

[00:34:45] Hector: Yeah, it reminds me of . , something I really enjoy about martial arts, there's certain, some schools that are starting to adopt it, like the, the act in programs and the apogee programs where kids are not necessarily just, they're not, there's no grades, , there's loose sort of age ranges, but there's a lot of value from being with someone who is well ahead in skill level and, experience and then there's also value in you being well ahead in level and experience and being able to see the gaps or, , for a better where the gains in both of those areas, right?

[00:35:20] Hector: Being able to see that. delta, if you will, for some big words here, but that difference to see the difference in those, , people who are more experienced and less experienced than you actually helps in your skill development because it gives you somewhere to shoot for. And it also shows, , how far you've come. Jake, this has been so fun. We're rounding out here. I got a couple more questions for you, but is there anything else that, , you think is relevant to today's conversation that you feel should be said?

[00:35:46] Jake: I think the biggest thing is. the hard work is worth it. We get so busy as men being providers, being creators, trying to lead, doing all of the things that we don't do a good job to sit back and reflect and take the time that we need in order to determine, are we on the right track? Or are we headed in the right direction?

[00:36:04] Jake: The right direction. Am I leading the way I need to lead, which is why I respect so much that you put yourself in an environment that is totally uncomfortable for you and the singer songwriter retreat that you just went to, tomorrow I'm leaving for a three day silent retreat, just going off into Western New Mexico, and I'm going to sit silently and it terrifies me.

[00:36:20] Jake: The thought of it terrifies me. And I know that because it terrifies me, it's exactly the right thing for me to spend my time doing. These things that push us forward. They're not a waste of time. We just need to prioritize it better.

[00:36:31] Hector: Yeah. Talk about getting out of your comfort zone. I haven't done one of those yet, but it, it is on, on the list that, and a darkness retreat. I mean, I should just jump right in and go to, are you familiar with the darkness street? What those are?

[00:36:44] Jake: Yeah. So I told someone I was going to go on a silent retreat and they're like, are they going to blindfold you also? And I was like, what, this is crazy. No. And so I started like doing a little research that sounds insane also.

[00:36:55] Hector: Yeah. You go into a cave. I've seen some, I have one of my, earliest mentors, Juliana Ray. She's my earliest mindfulness coach. She was one of the early ones. They sent her into like a, it's built into like a tree or like the side of a Hill. So she was just in a Hill. And, , they slide you food through a slit, , three times a day.

[00:37:13] Hector: There's no interaction. And then, you come out, however, , you can scream uncle. I have a, I've had a friend who, , he yelled uncle about four days in, he was supposed to do 10 days. He made it four.

[00:37:22] Hector: So, , I guess there's levels to this thing

[00:37:24] Jake: Four days still feels like a real accomplishment. So

[00:37:27] Hector: for sure. Oh, Jake, I got one last question before round us out. But, if people want to get more connected with you, if they want to find out about gathering the Kings, the community, or, just stay connected with you, where is the best place to follow up and go

[00:37:41] Jake: yeah, you can find all that information on gathering the kings. com. That's going to be the best place to learn not only about the community, but to be able to learn a little bit more about Chaz Wolf, who's my business partner and myself.

[00:37:51] Hector: last question here. Jake, in your opinion, what is, the definition of modern masculinity?

[00:37:57] Jake: Because I, told you I was a fan of this podcast. I knew that this question was coming. And so I've been pondering it all week and I'm afraid I'm going to fumble all over it. But the definition of modern masculinity is. A man who recognizes that they need to do hard things and put themselves inside of hard places in order to grow and lead and learn to be the best value for the people around them.