Are We Sacrificing Leadership for Comfort? with Thomas Pfanner

[00:00:30] Hector: fellas, welcome to another episode. I hope this episode finds you well. And, as always, I hope this episode is able to leave you better than when it found you. And today's episode is with Thomas Fanner. And he is, the creator of the. Dads who lead page and brand and show

[00:00:48] Hector: and what we talk about today is, is exactly that. And, and that's the importance of leadership for fathers. And, and whether that you are a actual dad, you know, a father to actual kids or even if you were a dog father or even a godfather or an uncle or something. I think there's something really to say about the importance right now for men and dads to step up and lead their families, because from my experience and from my observation, it seems like the men of the previous many generations almost have kind of deferred that leadership, lot of our, at least my dad, you know, And a lot of the dads that I sort of grew up around in the sense, you know, a lot of the dads of my friends and the people that I was around, they were alongside the feminist movement, right?

[00:01:54] Hector: I don't wanna say they played part in it, but they were shaped and molded in the same way that, that we are shaped by the times that are happening now. And I say all that because I'm a dad. I think that there's a shift and for a long time, women were really taking the lead in the family.

[00:02:12] Hector: There's a lot of women who wear the pants. Even the other day, I was talking to a family member and she was like, you know, I wear the pants in the family. And that's, that's like the reality of it. And it was just a really interesting thing because I think she finally even able to come to that realization because no one, it's, it's not really talked about or accepted or understood because if it was, then we would begin to talk about the implications of, of that sort of thing.

[00:02:48] Hector: And that's really what we're dealing with now. And, and today's conversation is sort of, you know. The, the medicine for that, if you will, the, the, the strategy, the antidote, the way out.

[00:03:04] Hector: That's, uh, that's what I got for you today. At least for me, you know, let's, uh, we got plenty more with Thomas. So let's jump in with Thomas Fanner.

[00:03:13] Hector: Thomas, welcome to the Modern Masculinity Podcast. Thanks for being here, my man.

[00:03:17] Thomas: Thanks for having me on man. That's an honor

[00:03:19] Hector: Yeah, I tell the guys here too that when I open the show that it's an honor that they're here with us. , there's so many shows out there and so I, feel blessed that both you would feel compelled to, take the time to, to come on and that the guys would be here to, listen to us, take us into your world and, let us in on what you hope Are doing obviously you're a, dad, a husband, a father.

[00:03:42] Hector: We were chatting before. a jiu jitsu athlete, like so many different hats to wear as men. What's real? What challenges are prescient for you right now?

[00:03:53] Thomas: right now. Well, I've got a four year old daughter, a one year old daughter and my 16 year old son. And those that know a little bit about my story know, like I became a dad when I was 18. my wife plays step mom. So there's a lot of different dynamics in our house that, and that we struggle with, where Megan is step mom and not mom.

[00:04:15] Thomas: And I've got a, carry that balance. So as far as the challenges that I'm going through right now, I have a teenage son who is developing into himself, developing and understanding how to leverage his testosterone and his masculine energy. you think about the car that realizes that they've got that next year, but they don't quite have the wisdom to manage it.

[00:04:38] Thomas: In the way that they need to. and so that's where I'm at with Charles, where he's got a lot of abilities. He's just realizing and his perception of his ability sometimes can go beyond, beyond what he's able to do yet. So like the other day. When we were at Muay Thai, I was holding pad for him.

[00:04:58] Thomas: He's like, Oh no, you're doing that wrong. It's gotta be like this. And we finished the round and he's kind of like pissed off. Like, damn dad, why didn't you hold the pads right? Cause I get the right flow. Like, I'm learning this too. So as we grow and push ourselves as men and push our kids, okay, now, now Charles is pushing me to get better.

[00:05:16] Thomas: Cause he's moving ahead of me in some areas. So it's a big game and a big journey. and I'm blessed by it, but there's definitely daily challenges with helping these young men and women, elevate to the next, season of life.

[00:05:30] Hector: Yeah. Do you mind going into this, step mom? I don't want to call it a thing because that is way more than a thing. But I, know that so much is changing in relationship dynamics. And so many guys are going through things that I think that they're not prepared for. They didn't see.

[00:05:46] Hector: The precedent for it. And so there was no, therefore no model they didn't have a basis for how to, how to act. Right. And so they're in totally new territory. and I feel like that, at least for me, has caused, it's in those moments where I've seen myself shut down or seen myself, that's when I was at, let's not call it my worst, but I'm curious, another element that for you is like, you're on the side, it would be one thing to be a stepdad because, that's totally, I don't know, at least as a man, I feel like you can step into that role a little more, you can step you can, at least, maybe it's because that precedent is there, but all of a sudden you're trying to kind of manage this relationship between these two individuals or three, four, you know, a

[00:06:29] Thomas: They always get along perfectly.

[00:06:32] Hector: I'm sure. But like, how's that been for you? and what's that? Is it been a journey? has that relationship evolved? Can you share what that's been like?

[00:06:41] Thomas: you know, Charles relationship with Megan is, very unique because Megan is someone who is very consistent and shows up, but she also is really passionate. I'll give you this example. Megan, somebody who will be there to get Charles to his practices will be there to, you know, make the meal for him and provide him what he needs, but she's also not going to take shit.

[00:07:07] Thomas: which is important, but we know that when you have these personalities, there are times where there's conflict. so I see Charles and his relationship with his birth mom. He struggles with that relationship. There are things that Megan provides. his mom doesn't provide and so when I see that I can imagine That it would be difficult for him at times to receive that love From megan when maybe he's not getting it from his mom and for him to open his heart can be difficult for megan I empathize with her as well because When she like gives and gives and there's this coldness back at times, it can make her feel like, well, why am I doing this?

[00:07:52] Thomas: so this whole process though, like I know going into this, Charles is not the perfect kid. I've got to sharpen my skills as a dad and a husband to be at the level where, all right, man, yes, I'm thinking about my wife's perspective. This dude has a teenage son this teenage son is difficult to live with.

[00:08:13] Thomas: At times, but my husband is so on his purpose and I'm so in love with him that I'm going to overlook that and continue on to grow our marriage. So that's, that's kind of where I've been.

[00:08:27] Hector: the challenge is Thomas, is that that doesn't even happen for individuals. Own kids.

[00:08:33] Thomas: Yeah,

[00:08:33] Hector: I mean, so many relationships are strained.

[00:08:37] Thomas: the reality is that so many kids strain the relationship to the point where It doesn't make it back.

[00:08:45] Thomas: Yes.

[00:08:46] Hector: and it's unfortunate that is the case. And also, I don't blame those individuals because we are coming into it and so many things are hitting and the support and the resources or really the knowhow, the per the correct sort of perspective is not there for people to make it out.

[00:09:07] Hector: Alive, frankly, and society is not telling them to go back in and figure it out. They're doing the exact opposite. Social media is encouraging, the exact opposite. And so, we're really in this place where, to your point, guys have to step up to an Even higher level in order to create this sort of, I don't know, the words that are coming to mind are like traditional relationship, but I don't think that that's the right sort of words today anymore.

[00:09:35] Hector: but that's where it seems to be headed.

[00:09:37] Thomas: Yeah. Well, I'm glad you mentioned social media and, the presence that it can have in our kids lives. this is something I talk to clients about is we look back even 10, 15 years ago, there weren't that many people that our kids could really look up to.

[00:09:54] Thomas: I mean, maybe somebody, you know, you see a, A Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant highlight on TV, but you're not following everything they're doing. And so now we're in this environment where when kids look up to somebody, especially teenagers, they can see what they're doing on a daily basis, how they at least the highlights of what they're doing, right?

[00:10:17] Thomas: And so we have more competition now than ever before. but one way that we can help curve that is sharpen our skills of being great listeners for our kids, because there's no athlete or rapper that's going to be able to compete with a dad that really knows and understands what's going on in their kid's life.

[00:10:40] Thomas: But if all we have is, this is what you should do. Why aren't you doing ABC? it puts us in a pool with a lot of other, a lot of other influencers that not be as sexy as them.

[00:10:54] Hector: well, I can imagine would guess that there are a lot of people who are farming out their parenting to social media, to YouTube, to YouTube kids. And it's even like, as we're recording it, I hear my little guy and he just got home from camp and he's watching YouTube kids right now.

[00:11:13] Hector: And it's like, we are, More intentional than some parents, but even there are some instances where it's like, I have no energy left. Mom's been out of town for a week. you know, I need a minute like, and I know that I'm of the intentional side of the spectrum. And so those that are not, you know, you go into restaurants and half the tables have kids, watching their iPads and it's like, there's no conscious use of that sort of stuff and it's not like it's programming them for good, unfortunately, and as we're moving into mixed families and all these sorts of things, like getting everybody on the same page just seems like a bigger and bigger challenge.

[00:11:52] Hector: You know,

[00:11:52] Thomas: Yes. Well, you can think about it like this. We have the average teenager spends between seven and nine hours on their phone a day. And what that means is that my dad's generation, let's just say they were two hours of TV. That's probably, it's probably less than that. But let's just say two hours of TV that they were doing a day. That means in a week, we got six times, so like 40 hours more, a full work week more development. Whether it's socializing, playing baseball, climbing around in the woods, riding a bike, 40 hours more, our father's generation got in real world activities than our kids are getting per week. It's astounding and it's like, Hey, you know, why is it that the workforce isn't as good as it used to be?

[00:12:45] Thomas: It's because there wasn't much else to do, talking to my dad. It was like, okay, well, I guess I'm going to get a paper route because I'm bored. so we've gotten with the saturation of technology and entertainment, we've gotten away from a lot of those opportunities.

[00:13:00] Hector: well, it's okay. I think it should be okay for kids to be bored today. It's a fight I have with my kids is that they are just bored and they, think that there's something inherently wrong with the boredom and I'm like, it's just good. this is great. What can we learn? How can we get creative? What can that boredom stimulate? And the other side of is that even as as parents as adults, I have to fight that same sort of response to grab my phone and start scrolling because I'm bored. have to be mindful. I don't like being a hypocrite it's a very important thing for me that has helped spurn a lot of growth and development that I think we owe to our kids, frankly.

[00:13:42] Thomas: Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. That setting that example is, is huge. I agree. Go ahead.

[00:13:48] Hector: I was going to take it in a different direction because

[00:13:50] Hector: I'm curious about the platform. , I'd love for you to, talk a little bit about Your platform is dads who lead, and I think that a lot of men, and I speak from experience, have lost that ability to be a leader, or it was, I don't know if it was taken from them, that sounds very victim like, but it was not equipped in them, and it wasn't perhaps required, because we had this path that we were prepared for.

[00:14:16] Hector: Living right. It was the go to school, get good grades, get a good job. Like that sort of path was the path. And if we just work that, then we would just defer all of our leadership to that, sort of path in that system. The challenge is, is that system, buckled and broke, who know when it happened, right?

[00:14:35] Hector: Maybe it was in 2008, 2009. Maybe it was in the 20 like, but, the point is, is that system is broken. And, if we're expecting happiness to be at the end of that road, , we're gonna, we're gonna be in a very, very sad place, which is why I think a lot of guys are, suffering. It's because we were sold to build goods that was not what's real.

[00:14:54] Hector: And I think at the heart of that is our ability to make our own decisions to be able to lead our own lives to be able to. I was just talking to a friend today to live with the Ability to be uncertain to be okay, being uncertain instead of having the path entirely prescribed out from the moment we were five years old, where we started thinking about people started asking us, what do we want to be when we grew up?

[00:15:17] Hector: It's like, fuck, we're five years old. I don't fucking know. I know. I like to, draw. I know. I like to, like, Talk. I know I like to, do these things, but that wasn't the questions. It wasn't like, what do you like to do? Or like, what gets you excited? It was like, you know, you should be a lawyer.

[00:15:33] Hector: You like to argue with me. Oh, thank you. No,

[00:15:36] Thomas: Well, Hector, I'll share this with you. I was A teacher for seven years and obviously went through a public school system. And what I observed in that time is that for 18 years, we expect kids to be a role character. You need to ask if you're going to go to the bathroom, you're going to be told what is assigned to you when it needs to be done and how it needs to be done.

[00:16:02] Thomas: which there are in very important times that we become. Role characters. And we practice how to step into other people's worlds and understand how to follow directions clearly and accurately. The trick comes when we turn 18, we expect kids to now become the main character in their own story. And not be able to manage their nutrition, their fitness, their budget, their leisure time, find a home, find a job, find a school and be equipped to lead themselves from their heart when they've been led from.

[00:16:39] Thomas: Direction and so really what I will a lot of the work that I work with dads on is how can we first and foremost as dads become the main character in our own story and have the conviction to lead our family and not defer leadership knowingly or unknowingly to our wives. And to set the example for our sons and daughters of what that looks like, because you're right.

[00:17:06] Thomas: Once you get into that hamster wheel comes to mind, but that, that cycle, you get in, you get a job, same thing. Hey, great. You show up at this time. These are the tasks that we need done from you. And it continues on. and there, again, there's going to be times where you need to do tasks for other people, but is there a break where you become, it doesn't matter what it is, maybe you hunt, maybe you do jujitsu, maybe you run marathons.

[00:17:31] Thomas: There's something where you're writing your story as a man. And that's one of the best gifts that we can give our kids.

[00:17:39] Hector: you made a post on Instagram that, essentially it was like the difference between parenting versus leading. And it reminds me of that, I don't know if I'd call it a meme, but that age old illustration of like manager versus. leader or whatever. And it's got the one is has the guy sitting behind the desk and all the workers are pulling, desk as he's sitting there.

[00:18:01] Hector: And then the leader is he's out in front pulling, desk alongside them or with them. And it reminds me of that same sort of thing because I have to catch myself when I'm Asking my kids to even, fucking clean up their toys. It's like, am I creating someone who is just going to follow obediently, to someone else, to just defer all of their agency to someone else.

[00:18:25] Hector: Or am I encouraging kid who like, enjoys having a nice space and space to walk and doesn't, and like nice clean environment, like, and it can be. The easy default way is just to start demanding and to be a dictator and just to start, doing that side of it. and the more think it is more challenging, but it also requires more energy and effort is to do that to be a leader.

[00:18:48] Hector: So How do we navigate an environment where perhaps easier thing to do is actually like the harder thing

[00:18:55] Thomas: The easier thing. Is only easier for today. So I'll use this example for my daughter. She's four is easier to make her nachos than it is to teach her how to make nachos significantly. It's going to take me a lot less time

[00:19:14] Hector: I thought there was going to be no nacho eating in this scenario. And I was like, I was going to say, wait a minute, wait a minute. Do we have to pick nachos here? We continue on. Yeah,

[00:19:23] Thomas: No, well, my daughter loves nachos. And so I was like, all right, well, I'm going to start spreading my nachos. And you can spread your nachos and I'll cut the cheese. So she starts to learn. And, the hope is that as she continues to do this soon, she'd be like, Hey, you're going to make the family nachos for lunch or dinner, giving space and time. And bandwidth and knowing like, all right, I am going to have to invest in developing the skills of my kids that matter. I think for a long time without technology, it was a lot easier to, because kids were bored. There wasn't really as much default, other than like, well, I'm cutting carrots or I'm planning a garden or I'm going fishing or whatever it is we're doing, like, oh yeah, that actually.

[00:20:07] Thomas: That sounds pretty good compared to reading a book or like, I don't know. Some people love reading books, but just like, I'm thinking back to my dad's generation, there's really, it wasn't as many options other than getting out and getting your hands dirty. And so now that technology is so ubiquitous and.

[00:20:24] Thomas: It's everywhere for kids. The default when you're in that moment and it's like, all right, man, I'm worn out, I'm stressed, I'm beaten down. It's been a long day at work. I can throw in microwave food or make pasta myself. Or teach my kids how to make a meal, man. It's so much easier just to go with, and a lot of times I do that too.

[00:20:48] Thomas: I'm like, I'm making, I'm just making the food right now. It's seven 30. You got to be in bed soon. but allowing that space to help your kids develop skills, is really important. and I think that's one of the biggest things that I see. Is the real world skills, like what can you do with your hands?

[00:21:08] Thomas: Because that's where true confidence comes from is not something that you can do behind a screen, but something you could do it sounds crazy, but you take somebody, you just basically make them completely naked. What are they capable of? That's where confidence comes from.

[00:21:21] Hector: I've recently got my five year old and my four year old. Both they started training jujitsu and just funny story just about it. that I think the listeners might enjoy. They were goofing off as normal, four and five years, five year olds do. And they were, working with, Ron Turner, dirty Ron Turner, former MMA, fighter and, great guy.

[00:21:42] Hector: And, my son watches, Ninjago. It's a kind of a Lego series. And I said, do you know Coach Ron? he's a black belt. He's like, Master Wu. Right. I kind of compared him to some character in the, uh, in the series and his light eyes lit up and like, he finally got it. Right. And he, you know, he said, buckled down and like started listening intently and stuff.

[00:22:03] Hector: And I say all that, a funny precursor to, The fact that it, does make a difference, right? He was someone who we at the beginning, right? About four or five months ago, we were like, he needs to get a little tougher. Like we, he needs to be like, of course want to have feelings and you want to be able to express your emotions and stuff too.

[00:22:20] Hector: but also you want to have a little toughness and grit. And we were like, yeah, we need a little, toughness and grit. And over the period of a lot of the kids are bigger than him. And over that time, you've seen that, that sense of confidence. And there's a class bully who, at least for now, I don't want to jinx anything, but like the bully doesn't seem to bother him because, I think that there's a certain level of, I don't know, like it just that it matters, right?

[00:22:46] Hector: Like for the longest time, my parents generation, they didn't think that that stuff matters. It mattered. And I had to walk around pretending that I was tough. Knowing full well that if anything went down, I would have no clue what to do, except what I saw in the movies.

[00:23:01] Hector: You know,

[00:23:01] Thomas: Yeah. Hope for the best.

[00:23:03] Hector: just hope say just and and it created a, a life where I became an extreme pacifist. I would just try and avoid conflict at all costs because I mean, I'm five, six. So, naturally, I'm a little smaller than most guys. And, you know, being untrained, you know, caused a lot of, anxiety in those things. And so that's why when I finally became an adult and stuff, I started boxing and then I realized like, okay, this is not it at all.

[00:23:30] Hector: So I, started training, grappling and all those sorts of things. Because, they'll tell you that it doesn't matter, but does.

[00:23:37] Thomas: So you carry that martial art with you everywhere you go. And it's the confidence that it brings with you. It's like this morning I got up, I lifted, got a lift and got my mind clear for the day. And got my son up for, you know, a guy check on it, like, Hey, you up to go to go to school? And he said something like, I don't understand we're leaving at 7, 10, like, yeah, we'll leave at 7, 10.

[00:24:01] Thomas: Well, why not leave at 7, 15 and school starts at 7 thirties. It's like, well, we'll leave to get there 10 minutes early. Why is that? so because I was in a fresh space and I was in a good space and mentally and emotionally, which I think that martial arts is something that helps us be in that, like as a prolonged state, as opposed to just up and down as a man, I subscribe to nothing less than us being 10 minutes early to everything that we do. And, he disagreed, which whatever, but I was able to hold presence and not have a major blow up conflict with him

[00:24:32] Hector: Yeah, because

[00:24:33] Hector: we're fucking leaving in 15 minutes. That's because I fucking said so.

[00:24:39] Thomas: yes, which that's probably what I would have said, in a younger version of me.

[00:24:44] Hector: or even if you might not have gotten your lifted, maybe it may not have been that big of a blow up, but I know that for me, when I don't train or lift or get that vigorous energy out, like you said, I'm not able to hold that space. I am so much more limited. I'm so much more, shorter, not like physically, but like my temper.

[00:25:04] Hector: I'm always short, but like, those things, I felt with morning, like getting my kids are four and five. And getting the mornings together. Right. It's so much easier if I go to the gym or go to my 6am jujitsu class and go train before I come back and I'm like, they can't say shit that gets me bothered.

[00:25:21] Hector: It's like, no, no, no. You don't

[00:25:22] Hector: understand. Yeah. I just got out of a run naked joke that you have no idea how hard that was like, this is like, but if I don't give that I can feel the tangible difference.

[00:25:32] Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. It's not so much what we do or what we say. That's just a lot of times what dad's going to be like, Hey, what do I do in this situation? It's how you present it. So much of it is our tonality and our presence and our confidence. just the other day, kind of flipping this on a positive side of the coin, my daughter and I got invited to go rock climbing, outdoor rock climbing with one of her friends and her parents.

[00:25:58] Thomas: And Maddie had never before the other day, before Sunday had never done outdoor rock climbing before. She'd done stuff inside the gym we got up to the wall. That's obviously, this is a whole different thing. Cause you're in a harness. and I wasn't sure how she would do. I wasn't sure if she would get scared and say, I don't want to do it.

[00:26:17] Thomas: Cause sometimes she says that she's like, I just don't want to, why? And she'll just kind of hunker in and like, grab my arm with no answer. But her friend went and climbed up and it was about a five, six, which is like five, five, five, six. It's pretty like just starting to need a harness. and then I climbed it.

[00:26:35] Thomas: It was, I asked her, Hey, do you want to watch dad climb? Or do you want to climb first? Oh, I want to watch you climb. So I had that chance to climb and she saw how I brought confidence and presence to the environment. which I was blessed that I was able to do. There was moments where I was like, okay, I'm going off the ground and trusting this harness and my belayer, and I could fall and get hurt, but my daughter really needs me to display for her, strength and composure.

[00:27:03] Thomas: So I'm going to push through and like, and get to the top of this thing. so I got through and she's like, yeah, I want to go. And she got up maybe about like a third of the way up and came down. And then she ended up going a second time cause she really had a great time. So, those skills again, coming back to skill development and not trusting that all the skills are going to be taken care of by the school, because 52 percent of adults, 18 to 29 are living at home with their parents in the United States.

[00:27:31] Thomas: So if we trust that the school is going to take care of it. you're good at coin flip at that point.

[00:27:37] Hector: I'm glad you brought up that story because I think a lot about what are, what and how do I teach my kids the things that they need to learn? And I sit there and I'm like, what, what sort of like activities or exercises or conversations can I have that's going to like help them learn that? And it's like, they just fucking learn from watching you.

[00:27:56] Hector: They just, learn from watching you. And the more that you can bring your best to, frankly. the worst situations. I think that is the ticket. It's not about creating some perfect environment for our lives, because that doesn't give them necessarily a very good understanding of life either.

[00:28:17] Hector: But it's taking life and then being able To navigate life skillfully in a way that they can see that. And I think that sinks in more than the things that we try and teach and maybe I'm, maybe I'm off on that, but I feel like the stuff that the kids have, learned has, come from not me trying to dictate to them this lesson, but really them just noticing the stuff that I'm doing, consistently and on my own.

[00:28:44] Thomas: Nice. Absolutely. Yeah, just them observing how you operate, how you talk to their mother, how you talk to their siblings, is just as big as how you talk to them.

[00:28:56] Hector: Yeah. what we make normal. And that's kind of the challenge with social media is that, and just content and media and the internet these days is that it normalizes these things that are not helpful, that are not conducive. Right. and I have to tell my kids a lot more. So recently, because they're hanging out with friends and they're going to school and they have, you know, but I tell them, like, I can't control what goes on out there, but in this family, like, this is what we do.

[00:29:24] Hector: This is how we think. This is how, like, this is what we, I, what is out there is out there. And there's a, there's a big, like, huh? They're like, I don't like, at first they think I'm lying. They're like, no, like, it's all the same. Like, no, like, no, we don't eat a bunch of sugar in this house.

[00:29:41] Hector: I know other people eat a bunch of sugar and they eat all that crazy. Like, no, we don't, this is not what we do. You know, we don't whatever. that comes up more and more and more. And, I feel like at the root of it, I'm saying it because of the things that they're seeing, on social media and on YouTube and such,

[00:29:57] Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, the new normal is So we got to identify the new normal of kids having phones when they're in fifth or sixth grade, or sometimes fourth grade, and starting down that path and spending copious amounts of time on social media, looking at what other people are doing with their lives, rather than our own, it's not a, it's designed to be that way.

[00:30:22] Thomas: To keep us in that role character space where we're watching, we're consuming, we're clicking yes, clicking no, and it's the illusion that we have control, but it's a fantasy land.

[00:30:36] Hector: what else do you think is important for guys that we've not covered today? Is is there things that you lessons that surprised you along the way, or things that you've changed your mind about?

[00:30:47] Thomas: Yeah.

[00:30:48] Thomas: so I think the big thing that I see that men need to be aware of is there's an effect called the, uh, everybody loves Raymond effect. And that is as we observe technology, or we observe how men are displayed in media, it's the buffoon, it's the, dad who doesn't really know what to do and is useless and helpless without the wife coming in and rescuing him.

[00:31:16] Thomas: he's great for turning a wrench and making some money, but his ability to understand and make sound decisions is. Is broken and he's got to lean into his wife's leadership because otherwise he's, toast. And so what I've observed in this work is that as that we're a reflection, like we live lots of times in mirrors.

[00:31:37] Thomas: So as that becomes normalized on in media, I've seen it become. A reflection of the men that are in existence in our country. so now you laugh at things that are true. I want, when my son or my daughters see a dad joke about a dad, just like, Oh, I didn't know what time the kids were getting done at school because they had a field trip.

[00:32:04] Thomas: So I figured they'd drop them off here or whatever. It doesn't matter what it is, but there's some be like, well, They don't even laugh. Cause like, well, that's, not my dad. I saw, this happened to me. I went over, I was at promoting our father son retreat. There's a guy that came up to me. He's like, Oh, what do you do dad to lead?

[00:32:20] Thomas: Do do you train the wives how to train their husbands? I told him no. Like I fundamentally believe that men need to lead their families and that includes leading their wives. And he looked at me like, Oh man, he wasn't expecting that response. so being in that space to take a leadership role and be confident that when you feel something isn't right, that you can stand up for it.

[00:32:42] Thomas: Not in a way of this is how it's going to be. Cause I'm the fucking man of the house, but I'm do it with convictions and principles and say, this is the problem I see. With what's happening and there needs to be a change that will be respected not only by your kids, but by your wife as well. If you're able to stand up and hold your ground.

[00:33:01] Thomas: And sometimes that feminine energy will blow back and push into you. But if you show that you're strong and firm and when your beliefs. She's looking to see if you'll crack, but if you're able to stand firm, she'll respect you more.

[00:33:15] Thomas: I think one of , the worst bits of advice I ever got was happy wife, happy life.

[00:33:20] Hector: And not because the wife shouldn't be happy, I think that she should, but I think the challenge is, is that men, they, they, they subjugate everything else at that expense.

[00:33:38] Thomas: right

[00:33:38] Hector: Right. They, and I'm even in my head, I'm thinking, wow, some people are going to hear this.

[00:33:43] Hector: I'm going to think what an asshole Hector is. And it's like, I think that's, the problem though. Right. Is that we for so long thought that it was wrong for men to make decisions for them to have to lead it to. Otherwise it was toxic. I mean, so much of what, I grew up trying to not be as a 30 something year old, guy is like this idea of toxic.

[00:34:04] Hector: So that turned me into this pacifist that turned me into this Mr. Nice guy that's turned me into someone who had no boundaries that turned me into somebody who was willing to abandon myself at the expense and hope that someone else Would like that or would want that or or that going to fix these things right that if I just placate that that's going to make everything better and I think it's something that leads, it led me down, very tumultuous and painful path and I think a lot of guys are on that path and hopefully if they can wake up and realize that, yeah, if they can lean into some of that conflict, I was, optimizing for, uh, future.

[00:34:43] Hector: No conflict. I was doing anything at all costs to avoid conflict because if we're in conflict, she's not happy. And if she's not happy, then we're not happy or whatever. And when conflict is actually a necessary part of relationships, when she's looking for not, she's not looking for conflict, but in the midst of us standing our ground, there may be some conflict and that is, that is okay.

[00:35:08] Thomas: Yeah, and I would even push back a little bit that there are times that women either probably mostly subconsciously Do look for conflict. They do test us to see You How firm we are in our beliefs and they want a man that they know when things are tough, he's going to stand up for what he believes in.

[00:35:27] Thomas: And I You're absolutely right. Like that principles that you've developed, you've recognized that in yourself and have said, like, okay, where is it that Hector's going? Where is it that, what is the example that I want to set for my kids? And coming from that space, as opposed to just, I'm just going to do whatever is asked of me and hope that things work out.

[00:35:48] Thomas: They should, if I'm doing what I'm told. I've talked to dads, but I get home. work at a graveyard shift. Wife tells me to do the dishes. I do the dishes. I'm doing everything she wants. And now she's still, wants a divorce. I don't understand, and it's tough

[00:36:03] Hector: She doesn't understand it either though, is the problem that everybody's so unconscious to what's going on. And, it's unfortunate because we were in so many ways, like guys were just doing what they were told and they're looking up and going, what the fuck happened here? I followed the playbook.

[00:36:20] Hector: I followed the manual. I followed the recipe. this is what you told me to do. This is not the output you said was going to happen.

[00:36:26] Thomas: Right.

[00:36:27] Hector: and that's the problem. And, and that's maybe not the problem, but that is the challenge that a lot of guys are in, where if, they also could see that, A, the uncertainty, A, that part's okay.

[00:36:36] Hector: Like that's all part of it. But, I don't know, at least for me, so many things had to fall apart for me to finally wake up and realize this sort of thing, because, And maybe that also is a part of it. I don't know.

[00:36:47] Thomas: Yeah.

[00:36:48] Hector: Thomas, talk to us if people want to, I got one more question for you, but before we get there, if people want to get connected with you, get deeper into your world, where's the best

[00:36:56] Hector: place to do that?

[00:36:57] Thomas: Go to dad2lead. com. There's a free leadership quiz. Uh, you will get placed into one of three leadership styles after you take that quiz. and that will give you a full breakdown of what your leadership, natural leadership style and strengths are. Any gaps that you may have in our common gaps within that leadership style, and then how to leverage your strengths to create the greatest connection possible with your kids.

[00:37:23] Thomas: that's a free gift to you, and you'll also get plugged into our, our podcast and other opportunities that we have coming on once you've completed it.

[00:37:32] Hector: deal. We'll link all that up in the show notes, so fellas, you can check that there. My last question for you, Thomas, in your opinion, what is the definition of modern masculinity?

[00:37:42] Thomas: Ooh, great question. I think number one, even more important as, how I answer this is to be aware when people use language like a, well, a real man or man up, or this is what a man does, doesn't matter which side of the aisle they're on, they're leveraging a blurred definition of masculinity. Because it's so undefined to try to trap people into their agenda. so if you ever hear somebody with this response, like, well, a real man does ABC. it can be a trap because it's, it's trying to leverage a, the blurry definition of masculinity that the world has presented, into their agenda. Well, how I would define it is simply a man who knows his North star and is moving towards it with consistency and resilience. There is some target, something in life from a higher power, God calling you, to take action, to serve, to serve yourself, to serve others, and you're on purpose, not because somebody else is telling you to do it, but because it's in your heart and that's where you're going and you're doing it with a conviction, and force that is unparalleled because God's made us all unique.

[00:39:06] Thomas: And give us all unique gifts and goals. that's what I would say is, is men who know who can identify a clear target that's in their heart and move towards it with consistency.

[00:39:16] Hector: Fellas, I want to thank you all for sticking with us today and being here. We with it. Appreciate a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts. If you know a guy who needs to hear this and needs to be a part of the community, hit that share button and send them this episode. Go get connected with Thomas.

[00:39:32] Hector: I know we connected on Instagram. If you're not connected with me at Hector underscore podcasts, as always, we appreciate you being here. We'll see on the next one later.