How Wes Chyrchel Helps CEOs Design the Life They Actually Want

[00:00:03] Hector: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the How to Scale of Business podcast. My name is Hector Santhe Esteban, and I am your host. Today our special guest is Mr. Wes Churchill. He is a fractional COO, an advisor, speaker, and, author of a new book that, is gonna be available in just a few days. So Wes, welcome to the show.

[00:00:21] Hector: Thanks.

[00:00:23] Wes: Appreciate it. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's wonderful.

[00:00:27] Hector: I mentioned on our pre-call that I love chatting with you because you've got the stuff that I don't, I'm the visionary, Crazy person in, in most business partnerships, and we need people like you to get things out the door and keep things on target.

[00:00:41] Hector: But, I'm always curious how someone gets into that sort of, role, right? It's the, you're not the robin to most Batmans, but I feel like a lot of. Batmans need that, perhaps your, I don't know how, what you would say, like, tell me there, and then maybe gimme an idea of how we can,

[00:00:59] Wes: it's great that you're even using that metaphor. I actually just wrote a, blog article just about that. there was a movie, a superhero movie that came out in the nineties and where they said, I. they picked the people that were gonna be the heroes and who was gonna be the superhero hero support.

[00:01:15] Wes: And so I've often equated, you know, COOs as that. I said, you are the confidant, you are the second in command, you are the person that kind of helps them through their moments. And so, it's in, it's important to keep CEOs crazy. That's their superpower, and the, that not necessarily they're.

[00:01:36] Wes: Or the, just do whatever the CEOs say, they're the ones that take that, break the down into pieces and put that plan into action. So I've often used the metaphor that the COO is the one that just takes and bulldozes the road to make that stuff happen. For the CEO.

[00:01:55] Hector: yeah, I really like that the integrator, the effectuate, the actual, the person who's making things happen. Quickly. I'd love for the listeners to know your background because you've, this is not something that you've been doing. you picked up a couple years ago, it seems like you've been doing this for a while, both for yourself and a lot of other companies.

[00:02:15] Hector: You share a couple of the major pit stops along the way, and then we'll get into some of the tactics and some of the how-tos.

[00:02:21] Wes: sure. Yeah. I was consultant. I've been a consultant for 27 years, and how I ended up here was just working on people's websites. And you get to work with these CEOs and these big businesses and they're, they want you to figure it out. You're taking their business and putting it online, and when you do that, they want the ROI, they're saying, well, hey, if all that extra. Put the website together. You have to understand our business. You have to figure out how to make money for us so that it was a lot of pressure. And so learning how to look at businesses, break them down, figure out how to make money, and then translate that to a website, you really understand how a business is run.

[00:03:02] Wes: And then from that. I worked, at an e-commerce company for about 10 years and ran that and ended up moving into this EOO role, and we sold it at the end of 2022. And, preparing a business to be acquired is, it took us about two years to get fully ready. And you learn a lot about business in that process and especially when you.

[00:03:27] Hector: Yeah. I'm curious, what sort of blind spots do you find a lot of business owners run into, especially when they're having conversations with you and whether they're prospects or people coming into your orbit. What are the common challenges that you find them face?

[00:03:47] Wes: That's great question. There's, it's funny, I was just talking to someone the other day and they said how their business wasn't going well, and I said, do you know exactly. When the business started not going well, and they knew exactly like what decisions they made that were wrong. and I think what ends up happening is that sometimes when businesses don't plan, and it's almost like if you're working out, if you're gonna exercise, you work out every day, or you do something every day, you're gonna achieve this result.

[00:04:16] Wes: Well, a business isn't different. it's the same way. it's getting those reps in for your business. And I like that, the workout metaphor, because you do, you follow that plan every day and you will be successful. And when I talk to these business owners and when things go wrong, I say, well, did you get off your plan?

[00:04:33] Wes: And they said, yeah, we got off our plan. And that's when things go south. And so that's in hindsight, and every business owner knows when. Exactly. So to scale and you have to make adjustments along the.

[00:04:47] Hector: Yeah, I'm laughing in my head and nodding because it's like, yeah, the visionary, crazy, mad scientist type is like, oh, that plan we made two weeks ago. It's two weeks old, So. In your experience, what's the, are the, and maybe it's, you've seen some breakthroughs.

[00:05:07] Hector: I'm just curious how you help people to see the light, right? Like, like what, whether that's a breakthrough or, a certain framework. I just, I think that there's so many entrepreneurs who. They do it all on their own and then they get some help, but it's not really like in a COO esque sort of role.

[00:05:29] Hector: they're still left project managing and they're still left, handling a lot of the things that, that someone in this sort of role might handle. So what do you think helps to bridge that gap where they're more ready and able to make that shift?

[00:05:44] Wes: Yeah, I've always said it. When you create the goals first you have to start with those goals. Like, hey, if you say our goal is to make increased revenue by 30% this year, then how are we gonna do. Backwards from there, And so, and then when you get everybody on the same, on the, basically on the same boat, moving forward saying, okay, we, we all know this is what we're trying to achieve.

[00:06:06] Wes: Well, how are we gonna do it? Here's all the things that we're gonna do. and it's like, if it's gonna be 30% more than last year at this time, well, we can't just do what. Think about and put in action and then have KPIs that you can, that can show that you are successful. I think when people don't follow those goals and they veer away from that, or they just say, Hey, what do we feel like doing today? And every day is just, and they only focus on sales or revenue, and they don't, because a lot of times business will, businesses will be making in the front, money in the front door and they're losing it out the back door, with bad process, overhead, hiring too many people.

[00:06:50] Wes: But when you have a plan and you know what your budgets are, then you're gonna keep yourself in check. So that's the whole thing. Having the goals, sticking with the goals, and having the goals match the.

[00:07:03] Hector: Yeah, and I think that having that plan, having it written out in my. Experience and in some place where you can come back to, it helps me to refocus. Like, here's the plan, here's what we said we were gonna do, and let's start refocusing on and checking. Are we actually doing what we said we were going to do?

[00:07:23] Wes: Yeah, it's natural for the CEO to be the visionary and, the responsible of the COO is to say, alright, here's how I'm gonna take your idea and here's how we're gonna achieve your idea. And that's the CEO's job, they're supposed to put that plan together. While at the same time running the business to achieve those goals, it's a tough job being A-C-E-O-I mean, you're constantly getting hit with new ideas.

[00:07:49] Wes: Well, what if we do it this way? Oh, I heard about, people are now doing this, on, on YouTube. What if we start doing that? It's, well, is it gonna get us closer to our goal and what's the investment look like and what's the runway look like and how long is. I ask all the questions and they go, we,

[00:08:10] Hector: Yeah. Then they put down, they go, okay, we'll just stick to the plan.

[00:08:14] Wes: yeah, maybe we won't do too many things.

[00:08:18] Hector: what I've also found is that

[00:08:20] Hector: there is this aversion to. A delegation. And then once you get off that there's this sort of control part. But then also, a lot of founders, they treat, I know a lot of founders that treat their business better than they treat their kids or their partner. And so it becomes this sort of thing that they are very protective of.

[00:08:42] Hector: and having someone in that sort of COO sort of space, I know for me it was like, it seemed almost too intimate, right? It was too close to it. And it took a lot of work for me to open up to having someone in that role. And thankfully I did because it, it opened up a lot for our business and for me.

[00:09:03] Hector: Personally and all the sorts. But, I just, I think that's also something that a lot of founders have to go through is just simply allowing someone to come in and thrive in that role.

[00:09:15] Wes: I think, and it, what I've been, what I find is, and I just even talked to a CEO today and I said, what are you good at? And what do you want to do? And most CEOs are tired of doing it all. they're happy to give you some of it. They're just like, here, take all this stuff. And there's, but there's some things they just want to keep.

[00:09:35] Wes: And so I know plenty of CEOs that are really good salespeople and I know plenty of CEOs that are really good marketers. And so I think the trick is to say, why don't we have you. You tell me what you wanna do best. what do you do best? And let's, and what do you wanna do? Do you want, and what do you want your lifestyle to be like?

[00:09:53] Wes: Do you wanna be at the office at 8:00 AM or do you wanna roll in at 10, check in with everybody and then go do some sales or you wanna roll in early, check in with everybody, do some marketing, and then go home early. So those are. And then put in place because the lifestyle is really important.

[00:10:14] Wes: So that, that's what keeps you going. And then one of the biggest things that I've been saying is is boring sometimes. Once you get all these processes in place, you just gotta, you, it's rinse and repeat every single day. So you have to have a mission in place too. It's like, why are we doing this every day?

[00:10:28] Wes: are we just doing it to make money? Or is there something bigger, Important it is, and you have to have some sort of reason why you're going in.

[00:10:40] Hector: Yeah, I found that it allows having someone in that sort of role, I had to get over how quote unquote expensive it was. I had to quote unquote, how much time it took. All the investment both time and money, and then I. Like I said, the intimacy right in someone being responsible for right.

[00:11:02] Hector: Giving up control essentially is what it was. I had to let go of my control freakness. but what it allowed is it allowed me to spend a lot more time in my strengths so I could focus on sales and business development and, even figuring out and improving some of our internal processes.

[00:11:17] Hector: Whereas when I was doing all of the work and I doing all of the editing and all sort of stuff, it didn't, I didn't allow for that space, or I didn't have that time to, to work on the business because I was in the business.

[00:11:31] Wes: Yeah, it's funny, it's there is this. Metamorphosis that happens, right? And so you don't know it because you're so close to it like you were talking about earlier. And then all of a sudden you bring in a good COO, a person that really can help you and be organized. And then this, as they hand stuff off to that COO and they notice stuff is getting handled and it's getting done well, then all of a sudden they have this free time.

[00:11:59] Wes: That they didn't have before. Oh, well now what do stuff you've been wanting to do, business focus on, like said sales, now you have that time. So it is a learning process and it takes time.

[00:12:13] Hector: Yeah, it definitely takes time when we get back from break. Wes, I wanna, I'm curious if there is a, an operating system. I'm curious if you've got a, if you know anyone who's written a book about this. , I wanna get into some of the meat and potatoes of it because I think a lot of people, I.

[00:12:28] Hector: We've talked about making this decision and they go, okay, now what? How do I do that? And so, we'll get into that right after this quick break.

[00:12:36] Hector: Hey y'all. Today's episode is brought to you by Amplify Media, and we are a podcast and content production company. Well, we like to think of ourselves as like the media entity for your business because chances are you probably have, a product, a passion, a mission, a message, some sort of service that you're trying to get out to the world, but you might not have the time, the team or the tech skills to tell people about it.

[00:12:54] Hector: Well, if that's the case, we can help go to Amplify Media.

[00:13:06] Hector: So Wes, I'm I, my CEO visionary, brain wants to come over and bring over a framework or, some sort of thing to make it easy and you're like, you just get up and do the work every day. But with that being said, is there something you ascribe to, whether it's EOS or I know another popular one.

[00:13:29] Wes: Yep.

[00:13:31] Hector: I've tried a few of them and stumbled through a few of them. Is there something like that, that you found has worked in your experience?

[00:13:39] Wes: I've seen those two and I know a lot of people like the EOS and I actually think for a lot of companies, e os is great, and especially if they're just starting out, it gives them guidance and then people tend to do EOS ish and stuff like that. I, the thing, the bottom line that I found is you.

[00:13:55] Wes: You need to have goals. Goals, then you need to have KPIs, and then you have actions to achieve those KPIs. If you can do that, it literally, it dictates everything else because the actions are just tasks. It's like, Hey, how are we gonna, what are the tasks that we're gonna do every day to make sure that KPI metric moves up?

[00:14:16] Wes: Okay. And then once that's how we achieve our success, that actually is the metric. So that we look and we go, oh, okay, we're getting closer. whether that be a conversion rate or a growth rate, what have you. That's the KPI that's gonna show us that we're successful and then we know that, are we clo?

[00:14:33] Wes: Okay, it's been six months, and our annual goal, like, are we getting closer? Are we, achieving those numbers? So I think if you stick to those. Organiz goals, KPIs, and actions You're.

[00:14:49] Hector: There you go, folks. That's all there is to it. I think that's so great because it, not that it can get complex, but I think that so much of it, can be, and then also the magic seems to lie in, in the execution or, I'm sure that there's.

[00:15:10] Hector: Is there a right way in your mind or a wrong way that people are setting goals, when it comes to, their business?

[00:15:18] Wes: Goals without a plan, or any sort of structure, is basically that's when businesses go south. Because, for example, if they all of a sudden come up and say, Hey, we're gonna make 10 million this year. Hey Wes, we're gonna make 10 million this year. Hey Wes, we're gonna do 10 million in revenue this year.

[00:15:35] Wes: But you don't create a any. KPIs or actions on how to do that, then everyone's just walking around and saying 10 million. Eventually everyone starts to believe in it and think it's gonna just be magic and it's not. And so when you do that, you start to make, it's almost like you're focusing on making 10 million so much that you're not building the infrastructure underneath and you're making bad decisions along the way.

[00:16:02] Wes: And that's where get misaligned. So, and that's where I've seen people really go south.

[00:16:13] Hector: Because the, in my experience, and as a new and early business owner, you'd have these goals and then. And then even sometimes you'd have these KPIs, but I'd look up in the middle of a quarter and I'd go, these KPIs aren't actually, they're not actually helping us hit the goals that we set.

[00:16:32] Hector: they're keeping us busy. We're, we're running the hamster wheel.they're not actually moving us towards the thing that we said we, uh, is that I can't be the only one who's, who's sort of experienced that. Right.

[00:16:47] Wes: so you, it's not only the, it's not, you have right KPIs. You have to pick the right group of KPIs to measure. So there's overlap in between KPIs and especially if you're doing any sort of e-commerce,it's essential. And so sometimes if people just look at a few KPIs, like conversion rate or sessions or ad carts, things like that, if they're just focusing on those, but those are islands of themselves, you need to make sure that you're having the right KPIs across because. And so that's where I think people will get misaligned is, and KPIs just like you were saying here, goals, KPIs, and the actions that support those. There's a lot underneath each one of those. So.

[00:17:31] Hector: Yeah, and what I've found is that a lot of businesses. They go through iterations and it seems like some of the things that got them to one sort of phase, one level doesn't allow them to necessarily scale to the next level. And sometimes the processes or people that got them to, stage two is actually in my experience, sometimes the thing that's holding 'em back from getting to stage three or four and.

[00:18:03] Hector: And you're shaking your head here. so I just imagine that's something that, that people could also,experience often as well.

[00:18:09] Wes: I've said this a lot. I said, the people that start it are not the people that finish it. because the people that start the business, you have to be scrappy. You have to want it every day. You wanna have to work the late nights. You wanna, and then it's a lot like working out, I was talking one of my, new clients as a powerlifting, Jim.

[00:18:28] Wes: And so when you first start power lifting is your gains are big, right? Because you're like, oh, I can lift a hundred pounds. Oh, I can lift 200 pounds. Oh, I can lift 300 pounds. But then you start getting higher than 300 pounds and your gains get shorter, and it's like, oh, I just lifted 50 pounds. Oh, now I'm.

[00:18:46] Wes: 355 pounds. So now your measurements get shorter and shorter, but that's just how power lifting is. And so you look at the gains in micro adjustment adjustments, and that's what happens with business when you start to get past 10 million. A lot of those adjustments that you make. Those big swings.

[00:19:04] Wes: Those big swings you've already done, okay, we've made the cool website. Okay, we've. How we now have video and we have 3D images and we have, discounts and we have all our products. Well now, okay, maybe we gotta, do some ab testing and change the color of the add to cart button.

[00:19:21] Wes: stuff like that. Those are the micro adjustments. That's how you get those bigger gang games gains down the line. And so, scaling is once, once you get past a certain amount, it's all micro adjustments.

[00:19:36] Hector: And I'd imagine that as you were talking, I'm just thinking, like, and also I, I know that I've in business lost the fundamentals, right? you go so far in and you talk about something like basic like websites and that's, yeah. it's like some of those basics, it's like, oh are, oh yeah.

[00:19:52] Hector: Are we actually doing the basics as well? And then,let's cover those, as well. I am curious for you, we are recording this in, early May of 2025, and there's like nothing going on in the world right now, as it seems. there's, it's just the most, peaceful time, right?

[00:20:13] Hector: they called like, there's a time called like Pax Romana and man, what that would be like. I say all that because we're in a very, let's just call it cantankerous time, whether it's political, economic, technological. Everything seems to be heightened and changing so quickly, or there just seems to be so much, movement.

[00:20:34] Hector: For business owners who are trying to stay afloat or ahead, how are you helping or advising people to, fortify if you will, for against all of these sort of external circumstances.

[00:20:49] Wes: it is crazy. Easy time. And what I've been telling my clients is you have to have different streams of income. And so if you just sell one product and that's all you sell is, and you might have people that disagree with me, but I feel that you need to have, the ability to pivot to some of the products and needs of the time.

[00:21:10] Wes: One of the best stories, I met the owner of Ugg Boots. And Ugg boots, if you're familiar with Ugg boots, they're warm, they're fleece lined, they're with or sheep skin. And so people only bought 'em during the winter. So what did he do? He found a company that sold sandals and he sold a, sold it to them because they had the same problem he did.

[00:21:31] Wes: Now they each have a product they could sell during the winter and set, sell a product during. That they have, they could sell during the summer. And so you need to have, be able to pivot and emphasize certain products different times of the year and in different economic conditions. So just like you're gonna have seasonal products and services, you wanna have products that can also weather the storm economically.

[00:21:54] Wes: And so I don't think people put a lot of emphasis on that. And they think about that. And so that's how you wanna set up a bus, a business, to ride that ebb and flow as that economy goes and changes.

[00:22:06] Hector: Yeah, I grew up. I graduated in 2009, which was amidst one of the other, recessions that we were the old Great Recession. and it was interesting because I noticed that there were some businesses that were thriving. I. And I was always fascinated. 'cause I was like, how do we get on that boat?

[00:22:26] Hector: how do we make sure that regardless of the economic conditions, that the business thrives? And that's what you're talking about a little bit. obviously there are industries that fare better than others, but the companies within those industries or within any industry, it's the ones who are able to make the adjustments like you're talking.

[00:22:44] Wes: I've said this before, I said to me, money's like water. It never really goes anywhere. It just ends up in pools in different places at different times. And so you just need to find out where is. And so I think with, when you're working with businesses, I had a client, I had one client that wasn't doing that great.

[00:23:02] Wes: And I had, I called up another client and he said, yeah, I'm really slow. I saw,I paint houses. And I said, okay. He says, but it was the holidays. And so the beginning of the year, it's always slow. All of a sudden he calls me back and he says, Hey Wes, we just did a hundred K in sales in March.

[00:23:15] Wes: we're killing it. and all my other clients is our first quarter sucked. and I think it's just his approach was just to hustle, get out there and make it happen. So it who thought that painting would go nuts in March, but he did it, So I think it's, it is coming up with a product and a service that people want and meeting people where they are.

[00:23:35] Wes: And I know that expression used quite a bit, but. And need.

[00:23:47] Hector: Oh, the hu The hustle. The hustle aspect, and also. I have spent less time in the e-commerce space, but I started my career in like housewares and like consumable kitchen products and it was interesting that seeing in those times I. Everybody else was pulling back their marketing and their promotion. And so whether we were willing to market and promote via our own, sweat equity or whether someone's willing to do it via, Facebook ads or however, they wanna advertise, there's something to that, that if you can find a way to, attract people, There, there's an advantage there. While, everybody else is just trying to figure their own stuff out.

[00:24:36] Wes: I think people get comfortable. when business is good, they get comfortable and they just think that it's, oh, this is going great, and they forget about the other channels that they're making money in, and they can just go for the easy win, like advertising. And it's like, oh, these other channels are just so hard.

[00:24:52] Wes: Well then all of a sudden, all your competitors are now advertising too. And instead of getting a five to one man, you getting a three to one. And like, oh man. So when you take your eye off the ball or your foot off the gas in that situation, you will pay for it later. So that it, to be mindful and to constantly keep advertising, keep that marketing going, that is, that takes a lot discipline.

[00:25:18] Hector: Yeah, a former guest of the show, Jeff Woods, he came on and he just wrote a book about this, but he came on and talked about AI as a strategic sort of support, not just in, copywriting and marketing and that sort of thing, but to really use it and leverage it as a,he, what he might advise for our, in regards to this conversation is using it as like a.

[00:25:44] Hector: You can't effectuate it yet, but to at least think like a fractional COO. And so my question is, have you found any effective ways to be integrating AI in terms of what you're doing and how you're helping your clients?

[00:25:59] Wes: I think the whole format of how you organize your business is gonna change. I think what's gonna, and I even have created org charts around this and give this to. I think the middle is gone. I think the, all the middle managers and people that are managing it that way are gonna go away if they're not already gone.

[00:26:17] Wes: I think the top is gonna have your strategic team that reports to the CEO. And so at the top you will have your operations, you will have your marketing, you will have your sales, customer service, and then I think below that. You will have your coordinators, and your coordinators will be the ones that manage all your AI agents and, bots and tools that put that out.

[00:26:42] Wes: So I think the reason why. It's gonna move that way is because you'll at the top, you'll have the strategist, the people have done this before. And then you're just gonna need those people that are really good. Maybe they're really good at prompting, maybe they're really good at research, maybe they're really good at spinning things up and trying things out.

[00:26:57] Wes: Maybe they're apps that you're, that they're building to work with your tools or connect with APIs that make things happen. So I think we're gonna see some huge changes. And as part of that, I think right now there's definitely some things you. Make it easier. I, I think the, what was it?

[00:27:16] Wes: The, the CEO of Shopify, Shopify said, before we hire anyone, we're gonna see if we can do with AI all.

[00:27:26] Hector: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. well maybe we're gonna have to have you come back for another round. This has been so, so great, Wes. you've got a book that is coming out soon, but I think people can even go out and get little snippets of it. now if people wanna go out and find out about more about you, the book, where's the best place to go?

[00:27:44] Wes: So if they go to west churchill.com, it's just A-W-E-E-S and then C-H-Y-R-C-H-E l.com. And it's all there. And the book I have coming out in a couple months is called Create Your Own Job. And what it is it's literally my story. Spoil alert, but the, my wife was, seven months pregnant and that's actually when I started my, consulting career.

[00:28:08] Wes: there's sometimes it just happens and I got laid off and I was like, you know what? I think it's best time to start my own job. So, you learn a lot and I learned a lot of mistakes and how to do it and what to do and what not to do. And I finally got to a point, I was like, friends that were starting their own careers and.

[00:28:27] Hector: Amazing. We'll link all that up in the, in the show notes there, where you can find it. Wes. I'll give you the last word here, but in your opinion, what is the secret to scaling a business?

[00:28:39] Wes: The secret to scaling a business is creating a goal creating multiple goals to. And at the same time, making sure that you have fun along the way so you create the lifestyle that you want so you don't get burned out.