42. An Algae-nius Solution to Big Textile with Keel Lab’s Tessa Callaghan

[00:00:00] Karl: Hey, how are you today?

[00:00:02] Karl: I'm doing

[00:00:02] Erum: well, season of the grind is in full swing. our calendars are filling up with events and meetings. I know that in the blink of an eye, it's going to be Christmas. Likethat's what happens in this part of the year. cause it's just back to back to back different holidays.

[00:00:18] Erum: my family, a lot of birthdays and then, of course, a lot of industry events. And I know that you've been to some already. I've been to some. So let's chat about what we learned from these biotech events that we attended.

[00:00:31] Karl: Yeah, so I will mention before we get into the events that we do run a business and events are part of our business.

[00:00:37] Karl: mean, we go to a lot of events to meet a lot of people and stay in touch with people that know us. I was at an event. Last week, which is supposed to be a kind of an end of summer event put on by the investment fund. S. O. S. V. It was a climate event that they held on Governor's Island, which is an island in the middle of New York Harbor.

[00:00:56] Karl: It's a fantastic place. You can get there from Manhattan. You can get there from Brooklyn. It's basically a five minute boat ride. And there was, pretty small group of investors and people in the materials space and in the climate tech space that attended. So it was a super nice event. I'll give a shout out in a little bit to a couple other people that I met there.

[00:01:16] Karl: You went to an event this week. What did you go to?

[00:01:19] Erum: I went to an event. it's called stat local. So stat news is a publication that covers biopharma very particular. and they have a locals event where they'll bring together just people in the biotech space. And it's been really interesting because they've been having these events and they really Want to figure out a way to just continue having them, but create this community, continue conversations beyond just these events. And they created an app. It's really cool. this is not sponsored by stat news yet. Maybe we should be, but, , the event was really good in and of itself. it was at this.

[00:01:52] Erum: Restaurant bar, and on the rooftop in Manhattan. So very cool location. It was the hottest day of the year, I think. So that says something that people still turned up. I would say there's probably like 80 people that showed up, a lot of familiar faces. our friend, friend of the pod, Sabrius Dukes, chief scientific officer of indie bio was there.

[00:02:10] Erum: Definitely listened to her podcast. Really talking about the New York biotech ecosystem on that one. our friend Humdy, who runs a program at Merck Digital Sciences Studio. he was the one who flagged this event for me. so thank you, Humdy, for that. But I met a lot of new people. I thought it was very interesting, met a woman named Corina, who works at BioRender, which is basically the Canva for biotech. Tech illustration and design. so be able to Make everything from, images of hearts and all the, aortas and of the world and being able to then also create graphics on the cellular level.

[00:02:48] Erum: So I thought that was really interesting. She's very cool person. I definitely made a new friend, at that event. So I'm very excited now that they have, More of an organization, and see what new people we can meet and people we could bring on the pod.

[00:03:01] Erum: And I also wanted to give a quick shout out to Nick Hodgson, stem cell technologies. we actually met at one of the sat local events, and he is a listener of the pod. So thank you, Nick, for listening. he definitely appreciates our conversations with Ben Novak from revive and restore.

[00:03:19] Erum: When we talked about stem cells and being able to use that to de extinct animals or protect, species from going extinct or endangered animals. And I'm sure he's going to love, our episode with Mark Cotter, that was just released, about bit bio.

[00:03:34] Karl: just a quick comment on the revive and restore podcast.

[00:03:38] Karl: on Twitter, we got a like by Stuart brand, which I was really thrilled by, , if no one knows who Stuart brand is, he is a very early, environmentalist back in the 1960s. He wrote the whole earth catalog. He has been very involved in new technologies and, is a well known figure in California.

[00:03:59] Karl: He is the partner of, Ryan Phelan and together they're the founders of arrive and restore. And it was just a huge thrill to see a thumbs up from Stuart. I've met him and spoken to him a number of times, and I'm a huge fan. Of him and his writing. So that was a big vote of confidence for us. one other event that I attended, which is a virtual event was put on by Valley Dow and Valley Dow is a open global community that is collectively financing in democratizing access to synthetic biology tools to protect the future.

[00:04:32] Karl: Of our planet Valley Dow held a Latin America biotech event. , there were some people who we know very well there. Maria Chavez of biogenius in San Francisco, Marlene Pavez of, lands of tech. Our friend, Daniel Dominguez of Igem. There were a number of Igem people. There are a good number of.

[00:04:50] Karl: Brazilians, in the house. And what struck me about that event was really interesting was it was actually, a much more female heavy event. So if Latin American synthetic biology has being driven by women, that is just amazing. that's who really was being represented in that event. So it's a lot of fun to attend parts of it.

[00:05:09] Karl: It lasted all day, a couple of days ago, and I can only attend a couple of, sessions, but it was good to see familiar faces and, great to see what Valley Dow is doing now. We're both going to be traveling around. Why don't you talk about where you're going? And then I'll talk about me.

[00:05:23] Erum: Well, I will be going to Brazil next year, by the way.

[00:05:27] Erum: So, we'll have to start getting to know those people in Brazil that are leading the way for biotech. I can meet them. And that's for a wedding that I'm going to, but when we travel, we love our job. So we kind of mix the two. , but for the next week I'm hopping on a plane. I know not the most sustainable travel during climate week, but I'm going to Zermatt, Switzerland, which I'm super, super, super, super excited about because there's going to be a festival there.

[00:05:56] Erum: I mentioned it. in a previous episode, but it's the opposite of burning man. It's in the mountains and,beautiful, landscape, not a desolate desert. , it's going to be about growth and, there's going to be talks and everyone's going to be cozy, not wearing crazy, outfits that are like the comic con, I'm not bashing.

[00:06:16] Erum: The wardrobe choices of people that attend Burning Man, I'm just saying there's another end of the spectrum and that's where I'll be Heading so I'm very excited for it. I've been wanting to go Switzerland. I mean I know the huger he vibe is and I'm mispronouncing that definitely a Denmark Thing, but it's a Nordic thing.

[00:06:33] Erum: It's a Nordic thing for sure. So I'm excited for that. That is a great vibe to kick off the fall season and I'm excited to see my friends I made when I was, A member of a policy network, which was a part of the Atlantic Council think tank that focused on energy and environmental policy.

[00:06:51] Erum: they brought together what they called emerging leaders. So we were very young, but we had, really interesting positions at very cool companies. it was transatlantic. That is the Atlantic Council focus where they focus on European and American policy. and I met. Some of the best friends.

[00:07:06] Erum: I mean, that was like 10 years ago and we're still really good friends, we're going to go to this festival and it's also my friend, Aurelia, who is the head of sustainability at Breitling, the watch company. , it's her birthday. so we're going to be celebrating her birthday at this festival.

[00:07:19] Erum: And she is going to be giving a talk there too. very, very exciting. But Zermatt very well, Carl, You've been around that area and you live there for a

[00:07:26] little

[00:07:26] Karl: bit, right? Well, so I lived in Lausanne, which is on Lake Geneva. It's not that far from Zermatt, but when I lived in Switzerland, I was on a skateboard team and toured all over Switzerland.

[00:07:38] Karl: and I've been to Switzerland many times though. I haven't been there in. six or seven years. , and before that, I hadn't been there for probably at least 10 years. I have some family that lives in Switzerland. , they live in Lausanne and in, Basel. for of us in biotech, a lot of things are happening in Basel.

[00:07:55] Karl: So yeah, I do know my way around Switzerland and Zermatt is a beautiful place that is the home of the Matterhorn I will actually be going to the opposite side of Lake Geneva. Wait,

[00:08:05] Erum: before you go into that, can you tell me a little bit more about this skateboarding team? I mean, Carl, as a skateboarder, you're really cool.

[00:08:13] Erum: I think you're just a cool guy you know, you're writing, skateboarding and biotech. What a confluence of things. But what did you guys do on this skateboarding team? Like, what was it?

[00:08:22] Karl: it was like a local team in Lausanne. we'd get together once a week in this huge kind of warehouse where they had built a skateboard ramp.

[00:08:32] Karl: We would ride around learning tricks or teaching each other tricks. All I cared about was riding the ramp because that's what I was into. I was into riding vertical. we would get invited to do demos in different places. around Switzerland. the two that I remember most or one was in interlocking, which is outside of the CERN.

[00:08:50] Karl: and I knew all these places because as a kid, my mom and dad had a lot of Swiss friends. So I knew the names and I have like an uncle who was from the CERN. so the interlocking demo was very cool. but then there was another demo we did in Zurich at a disco, and that was Crazy too, because there was a team that we.

[00:09:10] Karl: Did the demo with that was from France. and so there were all these French skateboarders that did the demo with us. it was a lot of fun. I mean, it's like the way that I got to know lot of Switzerland. I would also often take the train from Lausanne to Geneva, which is basically like 30 minutes away to go to a skate park there, , when I could.

[00:09:28] Karl: So that's how I got to know a lot of Switzerland. And then I went to school there. I became friends with several Swiss kids who were going to this school to learn French. mostly I became friends with kids who are from the Italian part of Switzerland. Lugano is very famous because George Clooney lives there.

[00:09:45] Karl: Plus it's also really beautiful. I would go see him all the time. even after I didn't live in Switzerland anymore. So I went to Kioso probably like six or seven times right on the Italian border. , you'd go see George Clooney? did I see George Clooney? This was long before George Clooney moved to Luo.

[00:10:02] Karl: I'm just mentioning that George Clooney. Has a place in Lugano now

[00:10:05] Erum: Okay, I thought I think we went to go visit him and I was like, oh, okay.

[00:10:09] Karl: Yeah. No, but I am going to france I'm landing in geneva my wife and I are celebrating our anniversary. We're going to be going to the swiss alps to chamonix To hike for about four days and then we'll go to Paris.

[00:10:22] Karl: we initially were going to go for the biofabricate conference, but since that was sadly canceled, we're just going to go and play tourists for a couple of days. So that is coming up, very quickly. So we are traveling. Before we get into the pod, I just wanted to give a shout out to Tabong Kima of Aday.

[00:10:40] Karl: Aday is a sustainable women's clothing brand that specializes in creating versatile, useful, easy to wear in multiple ways clothes for women. And Tabong and I wrote The ferry to governor's Island for this SOS V event. And while we were talking, he mentioned that he had been listening to the grow everything podcast.

[00:11:01] Karl: So shout out to Tabong. And then I told him that we had done this podcast, that you're about to listen to with Tessa Callahan of keel labs, and he said that, Ade had been speaking to Kiehl about potentially using their biomaterial in some of the clothing they're producing. So just by way of background, Kiehl Labs used to be known as Algenit.

[00:11:23] Karl: It was a Brooklyn based textile producer producing a sustainable , textile using seaweed. they recently moved themselves down to North Carolina because North Carolina is where there is a lot of thread engineering talent, there is also a lot of biotech in North Carolina. So they moved there.

[00:11:42] Karl: that's where blue jeans used to be made. There used to be a lot of textile mills in North Carolina. but because of that expertise, they moved there and I think Tessa will get into that. So we're pleased to bring, Tessa Callahan on the pod. So let's just let Tessa take it away.

[00:12:03] Karl: Tessa, welcome to Grow everything. It's so great to have you here. It's been a while since we've spoken to each other.

[00:12:09] Tessa: Yeah. Thank you so much. I'm so excited. It's an absolute delight.

[00:12:13] Karl: why don't we just, kick it off by talking about your background and what you do and how you got to where you are.

[00:12:20] Karl: We're gonna talk about KE labs of bunch, but, what's the journey? What did that

[00:12:24] Tessa: look like? Yeah, well, I wish we had 30 hours and we can actually tell you the detailed part of it. but I guess in short, my background is in design and in textiles.

[00:12:36] Tessa: I actually grew up I remember five or six years old saying, I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna be an artist and I'm never gonna have a company and I'm just gonna create art. Obviously that has completely changed 180, I went into fashion design school in particular because I realized that design and art is really just a form of communication.

[00:13:01] Tessa: fashion in particular is, one of the most immediate ways that we're able to. Communicate with the external world without saying anything. that was really intriguing to me. And then as I started, really getting into it and working in all of these, different, design houses and getting really into textiles and kind of the engineering behind textile construction, I got really interested in how do you now use design and, textiles in particular to.

[00:13:27] Tessa: Translate these complex ideas and theories without speaking. you know, begin looking into these other areas of, math science astronomy and architecture wanting to explore how we can just use design as, a problem solving tool rather than just a.

[00:13:45] Tessa: Consumer tool. and that's what led me to the introduction of Biodesign

[00:13:50] Karl: What was the journey from being introduced to Biodesign, to actually starting a company that is addressing some, big issues?

[00:13:56] Tessa: Overall, I would say it was quite serendipitous.

[00:13:59] Tessa: So I was, As I was saying, looking into all of these areas got introduced to the Biodesign Challenge, which I'm sure you're all familiar with. I don't know how much context they need to provide there. but basically, an interdisciplinary competition to, solve, Global challenges through the integration of science and design.

[00:14:19] Tessa: I got introduced to my co-founders by, a professor and advisor that I had in that challenge. And, really what we were trying to look at and just explore was how in theory would a solution need to be created in order to solve for the. Pollution and, plethora of crises that the textile industry was creating.

[00:14:41] Tessa: we, looked at what the problems were, trying not to be as, biased as we could, you know, understanding this is what we're using right now. These are the problems. There's c o two emissions, there's water usage, there's chemical usage, there's land degradation. There's.

[00:14:56] Tessa: Waste accumulation. There's all of these things. So what would a solution have to look like to not just negate one, but the entirety of those things, while also being realistic about what resources and tools we have today? Because we do not have another 30 years to develop, trillion dollar global supply chains from scratch.

[00:15:18] Tessa: what we wanted to do and what we did and now are doing is looking at the supply chain. So this is how textiles are made. This is stagnant. This cannot change. As a designer, my, supply chain manager is not going to upend all of these things. So what could you change that would allow those things to stay the same?

[00:15:36] Tessa: And we found that the raw materials that are used, within end products, are responsible for a majority of its impact. So we focused on the raw material component. We knew it couldn't be synthetic. It can't be petrochemical based, it couldn't be, agriculture, land-based agriculture those practices currently are not great.

[00:15:55] Tessa: what is good? Okay. The ocean, what's available, seaweed, what's off the shelf, various extracted. products or biopolymers from there, and how can we basically connect these two supply chains? So long, long, long story short, we experimented with the feasibility of this and produced basically ramen noodles, honestly, that we were able to knit.

[00:16:17] Tessa: It looked like knitted noodles, but fine. ended up, winning that year's biodesign challenge. I believe it was the first year of biodesign from there started getting, reached out to by. Billion dollar global brands. And it really made us realize that if these companies are reaching out to some noodle makers, this must be a much greater problem.

[00:16:38] Tessa: and from there, we kept going. We, got accepted to, and, participated in and accelerator in London, which is now in New York called Rebel Bio. Now Indie Bio, quit our jobs and. Have been doing it since, we moved to London in moved back to New York, and now we're in North Carolina.

[00:16:55] Erum: noodles sound like a pretty interesting texture. I do like the wavy noodles of ramen. I can imagine that being greatly for knitwear. but you mentioned seaweed. Is that the raw material you guys ended up using to create the noodles, the noodle textile? Yes. Is that the brand name

[00:17:10] Tessa: too? Can we call it that?

[00:17:11] Tessa: I love the noodles. Yeah. So we didn't come out here, being in love with seaweed and thinking that was what we had to do, but it was more a matter of, process of elimination. seaweed is our foundational and, inspirational raw material that we base our innovations around.

[00:17:29] Tessa: And are you farming it? Are you collecting it? How do you.

[00:17:31] Tessa: That raw material. one of the kind of core theories that we have is whether it's lazy or strategic, we wanna change as little as possible and own as little as possible. So there's an existing seaweed harvesting industry, around the world.

[00:17:46] Tessa: And this is, hundreds of years old. There's also an existing extraction process that, is used for many industries like food and cosmetics and pharmaceuticals. we tap into that raw material almost like, Chefs and we're not growing wheat and milling it into flour.

[00:18:04] Tessa: We're just purchasing the flour. And then, figuring out what specific recipes, and not ovens, but cooking metrics, if you will, are required to create the most desirable raw material.

[00:18:17] Karl: so you guys started out in New York, you moved to North Carolina. Initially you were known as algae knit, but then you switched your name to Kea Labs.

[00:18:25] Karl: What was the reason that you guys, rebranded and was it a directional change for the company? How does the name change, reflect that?

[00:18:32] Tessa: that's a really good question and something that we thought about and worked on for a very long time. We luckily had the support of Pentagram and Michael Beirut there who were absolutely fantastic.

[00:18:43] Tessa: but really we wanted to kind of analyze not just what today looks like, but what. The long term future looks like. although allogeneic is quite a direct name, it was fine. It, worked for us. But when we're thinking about, one being very clear with our audiences, even just a matter of what's the company and what's the product.

[00:19:03] Tessa: and thinking about how, a lot of other companies in the in industry go about things, we wanted to make sure that there was, an architecture for us to not just create one product. which is our core focus. But what happens in 10 years and 20 years when things change, when things modify, is there room to expand?

[00:19:21] Tessa: What happens if you're making the same product and maybe there's multiple performance categories that you're looking at. not only from an external perspective, but I think also from. A team perspective. to me, names are really important and words are really important. And something as, little as, again, changing the name of your company really opened up the perspective that our team has in terms of now we have room and we have space to think and innovate and grow in a way that felt much more limiting when your name is indicative.

[00:19:51] Tessa: Not just of your raw material, but also of the construction. What if you wanna do a woven, what happens then? this is something that has been really helpful and there's a lot of, thought that went into the names both of Keel Labs and of Kelson. which fun fact, Kelson, which is our product name, it's our fiber that we turn into yarn, is actually, derived from.

[00:20:12] Tessa: an old Norse word for the spine of a keel. So what gives a keel a structure is it's Kelson for us that just fits so beautifully and so perfectly and poetically to a degree, we had to go forward with it.

[00:20:24] Karl: Yeah, I mean, I think,

[00:20:26] Karl: It's a really important lesson for founders. descriptive names will get you in trouble, and it's very likely you'll, outgrow that descriptive name before you know it. So your name was algae knit. algae could change as your raw material. Knitting, as you say, could also change the way the textile works.

[00:20:41] Karl: we always counsel against it 'cause you're limited in your evolution.

[00:20:44] Tessa: one of the things that I feel like is important to consider and that as much as we try to think it wasn't the case, it's also really important for the name to be pronounceable.

[00:20:52] Tessa: a lot of times people wouldn't be sure how to, pronounce alginate. Is it Algon? Is it. I mean, there's al, there's so many different ways that people pronounce things, that it needs to be ubiquitous and really easily understood, not just in, American English.

[00:21:08] Erum: Right. That's a really good point.

[00:21:10] Erum: So you landed on Kehl Labs. You mentioned that Kehl is a material. What exactly is Kehl?

[00:21:16] Tessa: Q laughs is our company. and Kelson is our product.

[00:21:20] Tessa: So Kelson is the fiber that we create. So this is derived from seaweed. that fiber is then turned into yarns, that then brands and suppliers can turn into textiles and then their end products. But you mentioned,

[00:21:35] Erum: it's made of keel. Like is keel an actual thing or is that just a

[00:21:38] Tessa: name? It's, it's made of kelp.

[00:21:40] Tessa: Kelp, okay. So kelp is a type of seaweed.

[00:21:43] Erum: know, you kind of explained there was this existing industry of seaweed harvesting. how did you end up getting kelp as your raw material?

[00:21:51] Karl: what was the thought process for that?

[00:21:52] Tessa: it just came from availability. different species of seaweeds have different, Compositions of, what they're made out of. certain seaweeds have a much higher content in something like keraginin, whereas others have a higher content of an alginate.

[00:22:08] Tessa: kelp happens to be the type of seaweed that has the, majority. Composition of the biopolymers that we work with. And so that just happens to be the seaweed that extractors work with when they're working or looking for this specific polymer.

[00:22:24] Karl: when you've taken this kelp and you've created this material out of it, it's a kelp based yarn. That's what Sen is, why did you make that your first product and how is it that you're producing, this fiber from Cal?

[00:22:35] Tessa: perhaps selfishly, but also because of the market really, we started off again as designers and working in textiles and when that's the case as a designer or Anyone kind of working in the, fashion and apparel industry. the primary basic component of all of your garments, are fibers.

[00:22:56] Tessa: so thinking about things like cotton, polyester, wool, like nylon, that is the base level of. A majority of the garments that you're creating. we wanted to make sure that we were able to address the fundamental products that we're working with. so rather than creating a leather or other kind of sheet materials, which are important, we wanted to make sure that we were addressing the knits and the wovens that are, the primary makeup of.

[00:23:24] Tessa: I don't have the exact percentage, but you know, a majority of, what we use and what we wear. with that, the other exciting thing about fibers is the diversification potential. So a fiber is,

[00:23:36] Tessa: a short length of a filament. So if you're cutting something into smaller pieces. what you're able to do then is you can blend that with other fibers. You can make the yarn thicker. You can make the yarn thinner. You can make a knit, you can make a woven, you can.

[00:23:52] Tessa: do a really fine t-shirt or you could do a heavyweight denim. There's a lot of diversification potential there. because our core mission is around positive impact, how do we make sure we're able to apply to as many use cases as we can?

[00:24:06] Erum: right now you're working against an established industry.

[00:24:09] Erum: There's a lot of textiles on a lot of, yarn companies out there. everybody wants to have, more sustainable products, but in terms of the economics, in terms of the performance characteristics,

[00:24:18] Tessa: what does CIN bring to the table? there's a number of different aspects here.

[00:24:22] Tessa: And I also realize, Carl, I didn't answer the latter part of your, question, which I can get to in a second. but. Really what CIN provides is a number of things. because we're working with these two existing supply chains, the economics around the production have already been proven out.

[00:24:39] Tessa: as we get closer to commercialization, the proof points for, cost competitiveness or really being able to compete in the market is. Quite clear and, easy. it's not a hypothetical if you could produce this much, and if we have this new way of manufacturing, maybe we could get it to a point where it's competitive.

[00:25:02] Tessa: the unit economics are, quite easily extrapolated. secondly around that accessibility. Is also really important. because of these existing frameworks, we wanna make sure that we're as applicable as possible and as easily accessed as possible. So if you're able to just plug into the sourcing supply chains and production supply chains, it's a lot easier for companies to get access because they don't have to change.

[00:25:30] Tessa: Where they're getting their materials from. but really most importantly, aside from the, sustainability component, which is really our main driver there is the fact that it looks and feels like, The natural fibers that we're accustomed to. So one of the main points of feedback that we get that although somewhat unintentional, ends up being a real value add, is that it really feels like a, cotton, it's produced in the same ways that Visco is produced.

[00:25:59] Tessa: So Visco is a fiber that's derived from tree pulp. You operate wet spinning lines to produce that. So that means you have basically a honey type of mixture. You extrude it through really, really fine holes, kind of like a shower head. It then turns from a liquid, basically into a, solid where you get fibers, and then you cut those up into staples and you spin that into yards.

[00:26:23] Tessa: The big difference that we have there as well is that. We take out all of the toxic chemicals that make that industry quite bad and also make it expensive for manufacturers as regulation increases. and we just use natural and, water-based solvents. So it's non-toxic for the workers.

[00:26:40] Tessa: It's non-toxic for the planet. Right. And you're really able to transform this existing manufacturing process.

[00:26:46] Karl: Tessa, could you talk a little bit about, the environmental impact?

[00:26:50] Karl: of, CIN versus say a traditional yarn like cotton, which I, seem to be under the impression, requires a, great deal of

[00:26:55] Tessa: water. Yeah. So that goes back to the key foundational principles that we had. when you're comparing.

[00:27:03] Tessa: Raw materials one-to-one. It can oftentimes be quite challenging because let's take polyester and cotton, for example. Polyester is petroleum based. it sheds microplastics, it, creates a great deal of c o two Cotton is natural. So yes, it is biodegradable. However, as you're saying, it requires a mass amount of water.

[00:27:27] Tessa: It also is one of the largest pesticide and insecticide consumers, of any agricultural industry. degrades soil health creates runoff. The, processing is quite envision but what you could say is, Well, cotton, doesn't produce that much c o two, so it's better. polyester you can say, well, polyester, doesn't use that much water, so it's better.

[00:27:50] Tessa: we wanted to think, okay, how do we not just be better in one of these things? How do we, positively impact all of them? when we look at. Our materials. Not only do we, dramatically reduce the water usage because it's grown in the ocean. There's no fertilizers, there's no additional chemical requirements.

[00:28:09] Tessa: it just grows on its own. But it also, naturally sequesters, c O two, it. decreases ocean acidification. It filters runoff from various polluting agricultural practices. so as a whole, we can really see this pathway of dramatically, impacting and, having a positive change when it comes to both the raw materials impact and then the end of life impact where you're still not shitting microplastics also biodegradable and, compostable.

[00:28:40] Tessa: so just

[00:28:40] Erum: to go back, so you're saying that, cotton yarn is the other alternative versus CIN side by side. Is it exactly the same or is there anything more am asking this question because when we talk to a lot of, bio companies or ingredient companies in the biotech space, There oftentimes is additional properties that they might not have thought would be there, or they just are surprised or it's actually better.

[00:29:03] Erum: So like even if it might be, a little bit more pricey, it comes with a lot more than just what the alternative has. just outta curiosity have you seen any of that or working towards it when it comes to your process?

[00:29:14] Tessa: Yeah, that's a really great question and, one that is surprisingly complex.

[00:29:19] Tessa: So I guess first and foremost, and something that it's always kind of a,surprise is something that we really have to explain, which is when you change everything, You also change everything. And so I think that as an industry, we need to be very careful around when we talk about replacing versus alternatives versus, simply a new material.

[00:29:45] Tessa: in our case, The look and feel is a lot like a cotton. It is not identical because it is not cotton. a lot of the performance metrics are quite similar to a visco, both from a chemical perspective and just we're using a similar production method, so it's gonna be quite similar.

[00:30:02] Tessa: rather than saying, okay, this is a one-to-one replacement, we wanna be clear that As a industry and maybe as just a global populace, diversification and, and having alternative options that you're able to work with is key versus continuing to instill the expectation that something new is going to directly and exactly replace.

[00:30:25] Tessa: that's really key for us. And then, I think you're really spot on. And, because of these differences, you do end up seeing various, opportunities or, wins that a new material can create versus something else and things that it doesn't do that.

[00:30:39] Tessa: another one does. This is why we use wool and not cotton sometimes. for us, I think, there's a couple of areas that we're looking into, when it comes to beneficial properties. but that being said, it's also quite challenging because when you're testing and using the standards that we're created for one raw material, It's almost an entirely new innovation to say, okay, how do we test and validate these other things that no one's really ever tested before?

[00:31:05] Tessa: that's something that our team is, continuing to explore and something that we're super excited to get, feedback both, from brand suppliers and, soon from consumers around this is something that they found that, we actually didn't even know or, or maybe didn't expect.

[00:31:20] Karl: what kind of products has Kelson been put into and what kind of feedback are you getting?

[00:31:25] Karl: you start off by saying that, when you guys won the Biodesign challenge, there was interest from billion dollar brands. has that continued? What's it looked like today?

[00:31:34] Tessa: We've been, and I feel so fortunate as an entrepreneur to say this, and I know that it will not last forever, but we've been really fortunate in that we've received truly a, mass amount of inbound requests to work with our materials, to collaborate, to supply, so much so that we cannot possibly.

[00:31:54] Tessa: Keep up with it. And even in the long run to be able to supply that large of a demand isn't necessarily feasible. that being said, and especially, brands from beginning until now, it's really nice to see the kind of shock and delight I guess, when they actually.

[00:32:12] Tessa: Feel and touch and, see our products, especially when we've turned it into textiles in that, Hey, this doesn't feel crazy. This is not a noodle. This feels like, the t-shirt or the pants that I know and love. It feels familiar and I think that's the biggest compliment and, the biggest target really that we have is that, innovation does not need to.

[00:32:33] Tessa: Completely and radically upend your experience of the natural world around you. And so when it's something that feels accessible, that's really the, goal that we have. and then around, the products that we're developing and, creating, currently have a number of brand partners that we're working with.

[00:32:51] Tessa: none of that is. Publicly launched on the market. But it is really interesting to see both from the, brands we're working with and from, just the general public, the number of, products that people are interested in. And a lot of times the ideas and concepts that people create and the designers create that we may not have thought of.

[00:33:10] Tessa: that's definitely something that we. Courage and are super excited to see because innovation doesn't end with an idea. It's a consistent iteration for us.

[00:33:18] Erum: So that's great that you're working with brands already. And, my curiosity is, how long has, Q Labs been around?

[00:33:24] Tessa: started in 2017. Although I, think that we participated in the 2016 Biodesign Challenge, but from an incorporation and quitting our job standpoint, it was so late 2017, just before the turn of the new year, Oh wow.

[00:33:38] Erum: Yeah. And then congratulations for getting as far as, that you have. so far to working with these brands, we're very excited to see who they are and what type of products that are released. we do see a lot of different biomaterials companies. on our podcast we've had, Suzanne Lee, we call her like the godmother of biomaterials.

[00:33:53] Erum: Absolutely. Um, and, bio fabricate. And from that, There has been a lot of companies that we have brought on, like Poly Bion, for example. We will have Lonza Tech on soon. and looking at how they're collaborating with different designers, whether they're, very boutique, designers from Italy to big brands like h and m.

[00:34:10] Erum: you also mentioned that you have such a high demand that there is, an opportunity

[00:34:14] Tessa: to, well,

[00:34:15] Erum: I know that you kind of ed it as, you can't necessarily fulfill all that demand,

[00:34:18] Tessa: but I think other entrepreneurs may be listening to this, like, oh my gosh, I can help

[00:34:22] Erum: you.

[00:34:22] Erum: Like, everybody loves demand and opportunity. but do you see, working with like smaller brands or like bigger brands doing a limited release, can you

[00:34:30] Tessa: share a little bit about how you

[00:34:32] Erum: envision the next five years of

[00:34:34] Tessa: Q labs? This is really the exciting part in my opinion.

[00:34:38] Tessa: and especially again from my somewhat biased perspective of being a designer. The whole frustration was, I'm trying to do better. I want to help my company change. I want to create products that fit into my personal values, but At the time, there's nothing out there for me to have access to. So accessibility is really key here.

[00:34:58] Tessa: And because of that, I think it's really important to, not just work with, very small companies. There's a lot of, opportunity and value there for many ways and not just work with really large companies there's a lot of potential. value or return from that relationship. we wanna make sure that we're diversifying the size, the sector of brands that we work with, so that we can address multiple customer bases as well.

[00:35:25] Tessa: And so that's something that we want to ensure that we're continuing to do for, Many reasons, but I think also from a, timeline perspective and, resources perspective is, really important to get a wide range of, input and insight from those that are working with your products.

[00:35:41] Karl: Tess, could you give us a picture of what the scaling process has been like, what are some of the challenges you guys have had to overcome, in scaling? Because, you mentioned the way that you extrude your material, it's still wet. You end up with these really small fibers.

[00:35:54] Karl: I imagine those have to be woven, but to scale and to have an impact, you have to produce a lot of your material. what has that.

[00:36:02] Tessa: a big part of this is balancing external and, internal resources. we want to make sure that we are developing a product that works in, again, these existing manufacturing systems.

[00:36:17] Tessa: So, Making sure that we're working with partners that are able to, test in those facilities. Because if we're just making it up and validating it solely by ourselves, we can't know that as we commercialize that it's actually gonna work for them. So one of the, challenges there is.

[00:36:36] Tessa: Balancing resources. So making sure that we have the facilities and the operational, infrastructure to be day-to-day learning, understanding, developing, producing, while also not losing sight of what industrial standards look like. And secondly, I would say it's around Just in general, I'm as impatient as anybody out there.

[00:37:01] Tessa: I wanna go buy this on the market, and I wanna, buy whatever else is there. And at the same time, developing an entirely new raw material takes time. It takes validation. You can't skip steps. Yes, we are acting as efficiently and as consciously as we can to scale as fast as we can. We also need to ensure that, we're developing quality products, that comes with r and d, it comes with engineering, comes from, again, balancing these resources.

[00:37:30] Tessa: that's something that personally, I wish you could just skip all of the steps and just have something on the market today. but sometimes you just need to follow the process, to validate even from that commercial perspective. They never just put something new on a whole commercial line.

[00:37:45] Tessa: They go through lab scale, pilot scale, demonstration, scale, manufacturing steps to make sure that it functions and works on that larger scale setting. That's basically what we're doing and what we're mimicking now.

[00:37:57] Karl: can you, help us understand in terms of the manufacturing, like where exactly, the yarn is being introduced?

[00:38:03] Erum: and also like, is it just, whatever color is produced, are you part of that process? Are you introducing color? so just to know Who exactly your customer is? is it a textile manufacturer when would they buy your materials and where would they put it on the line?

[00:38:17] Tessa: currently, we sell directly to brands, but basically what happens and, how the supply chain works is, Suppliers or textile and garment manufacturers, typically purchase yarns that's been requested by their brands or by their customers, which are brands. we work both with a apparel companies and with their suppliers, starting at the textile production.

[00:38:42] Tessa: Stage. once you have yarns in hand, then you are able to knit them, you're able to weave them, you're able to cut, sew, add any embellishments, et cetera. Those are packed. And then either shipped to the, brand distribution or directly distributed. And then on the coloration side of things, this is.

[00:39:02] Tessa: Such a good and such a complex question. going back to that idea of owning and being experts in a really focused area, we are not dye experts. We are not color experts, especially coming from someone that. Pretty much only, whereas black color is not my forte. but what is really important is that we are collaborating and working both with existing dye and finished systems.

[00:39:25] Tessa: So we need to understand how those are functioning, how that's working in our raw materials, making sure that, if there's any modifications we need on our end, we're able to do that. But, and I think more impactfully. In the long run, what's really required? There is, a closer collaboration with, innovative dye systems because that has such a detrimental and, quite negative impact from a chemical perspective.

[00:39:49] Tessa: we really don't wanna be introducing, Really harmful substances into our materials, and we wanna be able to help to direct brands and even suppliers if they haven't already integrated where they can go and what to do to integrate a holistically sustainable end product.

[00:40:06] Karl: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm kind of curious, when we first met, and we've talked to each other over the years, you're based in New York and Brooklyn. You guys have since, relocated to North Carolina. and as I understand it, North Carolina had been or continues to be a well-known, place for textile manufacturing.

[00:40:25] Karl: What was the motivation for that move? Was that it.

[00:40:28] Tessa: I think that you, hit it spot on in that, yes, the United States and North Carolina are no longer the primary producers of textiles, but that know-how, and a lot of those resources, especially in the US, are now centralized in North Carolina or just outside of it.

[00:40:46] Tessa: although, New York will always be my heart and my favorite city in the world. there aren't both large scale and knowledge bases that are similar to North Carolina, both from the universities to various, textile mills to Textile resource centers and rather than continuing to hope that, we'd be able to just pull all of that up.

[00:41:10] Tessa: We figured might as well go to where all of that is. And it's been one of the best decisions that we've ever made.

[00:41:17] Erum: right now you guys are focusing on kelp and Calen. Are there any other raw materials that you've been looking at? any other products that you've been toying

[00:41:25] Tessa: around with? Currently there's not, Primarily for the reason of, we wanna make sure that we're focused on scale and the efficacy of one product before diverting our focus and resources.

[00:41:39] Tessa: Because, we have to be really critical now to make use of the time that we have and making sure that the product that we're producing is what the market needs. That being said, and, part of Kehl Labs is, Things over the next, 5, 10, 20 years will continue to fluctuate.

[00:41:57] Tessa: And we wanna make sure that after, commercializing our first products, that we have the space in the room to address additional needs, additional resources, really look at, ways that we can help to both, mend if you will, the. ocean and, and the ecosystems around it, but also to allow us to address, whatever additional needs the industry might have.

[00:42:18] Tessa: it's really exciting what you've been doing at Q Labs. Since you're now, in this world of leveraging seaweed and biology, have you, looked to work with or just got to know more people in the biomaterial space? do you see any companies that you, I mean of course you admire, but anyones that you look to any friends, we just like to know who knows each other and what you're seeing out there.

[00:42:43] Tessa: I could go on for hours. the beautiful thing I think about this industry and about new innovations in particular is that we all recognize that we're all necessary and another company's win is a win for us because it's a proof point that, we are creating forward momentum. unlike what I must imagine, this type of industry was like, Previously, it's not about competition, it's much more about collaboration and, support. And that's been really big motivator and inspiration for me personally. I mean, there's so many companies. Everybody out there is, really inspiring me. a couple that come to mind, Are mango materials based out in California that are creating, p h A from waste methane, which is really exciting.

[00:43:30] Tessa: I wish I could explain the process it's way over my head for sure. but they've even at it for, quite a while and are up to truly incredible things. another one I would say is, living ink. That's making carbon black from, waste algae. they're, on the market, they're in so many products and that's been really exciting.

[00:43:48] Tessa: I would say as well, natural fiber welding, they've done such a good job at, developing multiple products of really communicating. And communicating consistently around the market and just publicly. There's so many others that I really look up to. but I know we, don't have endless time here.

[00:44:06] Karl: thinking, 3, 5, 10 years out, Tessa, where do you think, we will be when it comes to, biomaterials and how they're incorporated into fashion and how they impact the planet?

[00:44:17] Karl: all of those timeframes have very different expectations and I think you also have best case, worst case, That being said, what I really see as the goal and, really happening over the next 10 15. Potentially 20 years is really a, dramatic diversification around supply chains and with that, a much greater integration of biomaterials within our consumer products on the day-to-day.

[00:44:46] Tessa: What I really see that transitioning towards is, takes much longer for societal practices to change. And so the, more immediate thing is the operations of production or the what is being produced specifically. I think that although consumer behavior is. Shifting in a better direction.

[00:45:04] Tessa: I think that what will be really exciting to see is that, as an average person looks around their home and maybe looks in their closet, and when asked to see, the, ingredient labels or product labels, they're shocked and surprised by not only how many. Quote, unquote new, although then it'll be established, materials there are, but also how little they had to think about it.

[00:45:28] Tessa: And I think that when we're thinking about this transition, it needs to not be a difficult search for consumers. It needs to just be integrated the way that it is today.

[00:45:39] Erum: I mean, I love that, that, they're just making it simple. I mean, yesterday I went to Target. I don't really go into stores as much, although I should. it probably is more sustainable than ordering things off of Amazon all the time. But there are just so many things, on the shelves. And actually we, just went to Target to walk around before like a movie started.

[00:45:56] Erum: But, a lot of labels, you know, you kind of go for like the sustainable ones. and I didn't really have a shopping list, so it wasn't really getting things. And as soon as I got home I remembered I had to get all the stuff, so then I went on Amazon. But they do have the climate pledge friendly products, which does make it easier to select products.

[00:46:11] Erum: 'cause hope that it is checking off all those boxes. So I really appreciate your comment on that. the question we ask a lot of our guests perhaps a book or a movie or something that has inspired you, you are a c e O, you do come from a fashion background into this world of still fashion, but leveraging, biological products.

[00:46:27] Erum: but, do you have a favorite, business book, movie show? Anything that you can recommend that inspired you?

[00:46:33] Tessa: Oof. Again, so many things. you guys have great questions. I would say there's two books in particular I guess, that come to mind. one is called, um, nine Lies About Work.

[00:46:45] Tessa: and what I really like about it, because, I've read a ton of different business books and I think actually the business strategy is a far more creative. Design challenge than designing a shirt. but really, it, summarizes and analyzes the impact and potential of a lot of these other studies and books that are out there and, and, uh, Gives really tangible resources and results and practical examples of, how to be effective as a leader, as a strategist, as just a individual.

[00:47:15] Tessa: secondly, I would say, and it's partially inspired by your background, Carl, but, a book called Windup Girl. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but Absolutely. It's a great book. Yeah. Super fantastic. And I think inspirational in terms of, it really does a good job of showcasing the societal globalization, Ai, technology, food, resources, materials, what that transition could look like in a quite, Disillusioning way, I would say. Yeah. But it's a fun read, if you will, if you can call it that. but I think it really puts into perspective. The impacts that our current actions have on a, long-term level and takes it out of the realm of, you just need to buy better or do better.

[00:48:01] Karl: It's about, how this changes our society as a whole. so definitely recommend that one. Well, you said it's a fun read and I found that to be a challenging read.

[00:48:09] Tessa: I mean, it's a emotionally challenging, but it's, yeah. It's a, it's not like a silent green.

[00:48:16] Tessa: Right. You know, it's really hard facts the whole time.

[00:48:20] Karl: Yeah, it's true. I wanna be mindful of time. is there anything that we didn't ask you that you think we should have asked you or anything that you wanted to talk about that we didn't get to?

[00:48:28] Tessa: I think we hit on a lot. I feel like unless we had 30 more hours, covered it all.

[00:48:35] Karl: Well, we'll have to have you back so that we can cover some of the topics of those 30 hours.

[00:48:40] Tessa: Always happy.

[00:48:41] Erum: Yeah. Thank you so much. We know that we're actually talking while you're on vacation, so we really appreciate, you, having us on your vacation to, to chat about Q Labs and how you got to where you are.

[00:48:52] Tessa: It's so inspiring. Yeah. Thank you so much. And there's always time for this on vacation. This is so fun and makes me feel more inspired as well. So really appreciative that we're able to do this now. Thank you

[00:49:03] Karl: so much. Thanks Tessa.

[00:49:13] Erum: so Carl,

[00:49:14] Karl: what'd you think?

[00:49:14] Karl: I love Tessa, and I love what Kiel is doing. I've been a huge fan of theirs. Since I got to know them a few years ago when they were here in, Brooklyn she mentioned that they'd come out of the bio design challenge, which we should do a shout out. And we have tried to get Dan Greshkin on the pod before, but our schedules just haven't worked out.

[00:49:33] Karl: and, bio design challenge. goes into universities that have design majors or design schools and teaches them how and why they should be thinking about biotech as a design tool. And I don't want to go on too long, but I will say this. I have spent time within the innovation community. There's a whole academic track that students can take and people specialize in innovation and biotech still isn't part of that innovation palette for most of these people.

[00:49:59] Karl: So a lot of times it's very interesting to go into these places where people don't know that biotechnology exists to give them. An idea as to how this could be used as an innovation tool. So I was thrilled, to get to know Tessa, Alex, and Aaron Nesser, who's become a good friend of ours. the founders of Kiel I thought it was a great podcast.

[00:50:19] Karl: What did you think?

[00:50:21] Erum: Yeah, I really enjoyed it. It was refreshing. I think for myself and perhaps you, some of our listeners to hear the perspective of someone that doesn't have a PhD in biotechnology,

[00:50:32] Erum: So someone from a fashion background, Like you said, she saw that there was another avenue to make textiles and checked off a lot of boxes when it comes to sustainability, unique functionality and performance, efficiency, cost efficiency.

[00:50:47] Erum: kelp is in abundance for now. that is actually a very interesting thought is, if you scale up certain materials that you use a certain resource, that resource is becoming depleted, you know, Tesla was kind of getting at that, right now they're focusing on kelp, but they.

[00:51:01] Erum: Want to be flexible enough to be able to use different materials in the future because things change. So I appreciated that she was thinking, in a very flexible way. It's not like, I'm going to make, a hundred billion dollars off of Cal, she was flexible enough to think of the resources and what is, going to happen in the future.

[00:51:19] Erum: but I really also like the fact that when she was sharing some of her favorite books, she was saying that, business design is way more challenging than fashion design, in her perspective, because for her design is something that she's educated on and has practiced for perhaps a longer time than business.

[00:51:37] Erum: she. Knows a lot. I mean, I'm sure there'll be a time where she might know more about business and fashion because time has evolved and she's CEO of the company. And, she we'll have lot more experience. In that field, but I really do want to have her back on to talk more about, how her company's evolving, what kind of clients she's working with, what fashion designers she's working with.

[00:51:57] Erum: Cause again, coming from the fashion world, she has the chops. I'm sure she has the respect of a lot of designers. She worked at Helmut Lang in her past, a very high end fashion designer. So curious to see what collaborations come from, Tessa, her team at Keel Labs.

[00:52:12] Karl: Yeah, I think it's always interesting to think about business design.

[00:52:16] Karl: business model design is a huge challenge for startups. I actually had written about evolving business models in synthetic biology becausewe haven't even scratched the surface when it comes to innovative business models, in the biotech space. So there's a lot to do and a lot to explore.

[00:52:34] Karl: just a reminder to our listeners, a startup is not a baby version of a big company. A startup exists to develop its business model, and clearly the team at Kiel Labs is doing that so I'm excited for them too. I think what they're doing is notable. I'll throw one stat out there I once heard that if you planted about a texas sized crop of kelp in the ocean, texas is pretty big That would suck as much carbon out of the atmosphere as we need to maintain our temperature.

[00:53:04] Karl: So we need to plant more kelp. Yes, if you know the reference for that stat, please let me know if I'm wrong. Let me know. You can call our hotline and correct Carl off and wrong. but this one of those things where a lot of really incredible solutions exist and they're very simple.

[00:53:21] Karl: We just need to have the will to do it.

[00:53:24] Erum: That is such a powerful thought, Carl. the way that you framed that or whoever came up with a Texas size kelp in the ocean. It really puts a lot of things into perspective because the ocean is so vast. And I feel like when you're looking at the globe, oftentimes the globe is misrepresented to what actually is the size and references.

[00:53:43] Erum: I mean, this was big deal where Africa was not proportional to the size that it actually was. America always looked a little bit bigger. Europe always looked a little bit bigger, but. Europe and America are very, very, very small compared to Africa, but then compared to the amount of ocean surface area that we have on this planet, it's huge.

[00:54:00] Erum: so in proportion, Texas is really tiny, tiny speck in the ocean. I also think about Pacific garbage patch or vortex or whatever it was called. I mean, do you know what I'm talking

[00:54:12] Karl: about? Yeah, no, it's been in the news because, or at least I've seen it in the news because people are out there dredging the plastics.

[00:54:19] Karl: I've also been seeing these guys who are developing tools to catch plastics in rivers. So that kind of stuff has been on my feed,

[00:54:26] Erum: we've been talking to several companies on this podcast that are leveraging waste as a resource.

[00:54:32] Erum: So hopefully whoever's trudging that plastic is going to be making some valuable products that are sustainable, not just burning it and making more, carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. But it does seem very doable though. like you were saying, And a Texas size, Yeah,

[00:54:50] Karl: and just to put things into perspective, so Texas and France are about the same size. Texas is a huge state. France is a big country, takes up a good chunk of Europe. Sadly, the great. Pacific garbage patch is about twice the size of Texas or three times the size of France. So it is an enormous patch of garbage.

[00:55:10] Karl: there are people out there who are trying to clean this thing up. They're trying to keep the ocean clean. the statistic that I just heard this week is there's basically more man made materials on the planet now than there are naturally made materials. which is also very interesting.

[00:55:24] Karl: Presents a lot of opportunities, but yeah, so that garbage patch is two Texas's are three France's. I don't think we've talked about it on this podcast, but, Amazon was running the series, the peripheral, which is based on a William Gibson novel.

[00:55:39] Karl: And at the beginning of the peripheral in the book, there are people who are actually living on the garbage patch, sometime, later this century, because it solidifies or who the hell knows what happens to it. But, It's an interesting phenomenon. It's disgusting. Like to think of how much garbage is in the oceans.

[00:55:56] Karl: we can do better people.

[00:55:58] Erum: Yeah, think there's definitely a deep dive in an episode about this garbage patch, because how did it even get started? Like countries or states or whoever Threw it in the ocean, just kept throwing trash into the ocean, Because I know here in New York, we incinerate a lot of our trash, and I think a lot of other countries do, but which countries don't?

[00:56:17] Erum: how did this happen? can we run a simulation to see what happens to this garbage patch in like 20 years with the salt levels and everything in the ocean and the temperature and currents. so definitely a deep dive, but this is very, apropos to talk about now because next week is climate week, which there's a lot of events happen here in New York City.

[00:56:37] Erum: I went last year and just nonstop. I went to the. World biodiversity summit, which was very, interesting. I will say, at the least,blue, another part of our climate catastrophe wide open for me. It's something I didn't really think about, in that regard, in terms of, monoculture and the fact that a solution and how do we bring back biodiversity?

[00:56:57] Erum: So I thought that was interesting, and I know that there's going to be a few events. I'm not sure if you're going to those.

[00:57:02] Karl: am going to go to a climate anxiety event. a friend of mine, someone who I've known for a very long time from the synthetic biology space, Brit Ray is an author.

[00:57:11] Karl: She writes about climate anxiety. She has a book called Generation Dread. So I want to go see Brit, talk about that and maybe allay some of my own climate anxiety. Excellent. Excellent.

[00:57:23] Erum: we have a big event today.

[00:57:25] Karl: Yeah, so tonight is Genspace's birthday bash. celebrating 15 years of being in existence.

[00:57:31] Karl: It was the first community biotech lab. We often say you, Ram and I, that we met there. So we're very excited. It's going to be near our office in Dumbo, Brooklyn at Boston consulting groups, Dumbo space, which is an amazing space. it's one floor above the timeout market, which, you know, very well, you're wrong.

[00:57:50] Karl: so we're very excited for that. next week I'm going down to Washington DC because SymbioBeta is hosting a bioeconomy showcase on Capitol Hill. And a number of companies that we know who have been on the podcast will be there showing off their products, including Checkerspot. Bioworks and Lanzatech, others who will be there showing products off are, IonaBio, Contagion, Interplant, Pairwise, PivotBio, Twist Biosciences, and Z Biotics.

[00:58:21] Karl: So, I'm going to be going down there to support our friends at K 18 Hair. we are expecting a good group of people from Congress coming through to see the event and the goal is to show, Congress people, what the bioeconomy is producing.

[00:58:32] Erum: Wow. That's going to be incredible.

[00:58:34] Erum: So cool. That is really amazing. I mean, I'm happy that the showcase is happening and that we'll have more. People in Congress, learning about what's possible with biotechnology besides biopharma, and hopefully create policies and incentives for these companies to grow in the local area. incentives for people to join these companies.

[00:58:54] Erum: something that, we are talking about, we've been speaking with, organizations here in New York City that incentivize students. To join companies and intern there. you know, they, had focused on biopharma, but New York city is becoming a hotbed for non biopharma biotech, so it's exciting to see what's possible when you align, government.

[00:59:15] Erum: Policy and incentives with an industry that's growing like the bio economy and the biotech industry. So cool call that you're going to be there. excited for this showcase because you will be there and all of our friends will be there. So, can't wait to hear the. Reflection once you get back.

[00:59:31] Karl: So, I think that's the pod, but we do have a hotline. We have been getting calls from people. We're going to start highlighting some of those phone calls in the next few episodes. If you have a burning question or you have a comment or recommendation, or you have a guest you think we should interview, give us a call or text us at 804 505 8255.

[00:59:53] Karl: That's 804 505 5553. I don't know, Irem, is there anything else? Because to me, that's the pod.

[01:00:00] Erum: That is the pod.