142. Petri Dishes & Policy Shifts: Capgemini’s Richard Traherne on Scaling Biology

[00:00:00] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Sorry. I am, I did, I, sorry. I thought you were gonna continue. I do you want me to respond? Sorry. Sorry, sorry, I, I just thought you had that expectant look, sorry, felt at the first hurdle. Hi Karl. And um, really great to see you again and I'm delighted to be on the, on the pod.

[00:01:09] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Yeah, so. Capgemini is a global professional services company, is big 350,000 people worldwide, about sort of $24 billion in revenue. And Capgemini invents specifically as the innovation and business transformation arm of that. And it's the home to a specialist set of deep innovation brands. And one of those is is Cambridge consultants.

[00:01:35] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Cc. It's often referred to as a parent of the Cambridge U uk, uh, high-tech cluster. So in, in West coast terms, the UK Silicon Fen, and that's the deep science and technology engine of Capgemini. And that's where we've built are our practical engineering biology lab capability. And it's a capability we've been growing for about 10 years now.

[00:02:01] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Uh, it augments our other physical and and digital capabilities. And in, in terms of our role in bioengineering and the, and the broader sense, in simple terms, we help clients in a very practical way to discover, develop, and, and launch commercially successful bio solutions. And the foundation of that work is our AI driven labs based in Cambridge using genetic, uh, agent techniques.

[00:02:34] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Uh, and behind that, a multidisciplinary team across science, tech, digital, and engineering. And the, the center of the value that they deliver to clients is accelerating bio development. And using next generation lab approaches, so lab in loop and automated DPTL cycles and things like that by improving predictability.

[00:02:57] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Predictability is the center of of, of what they're driving for to basically reduce time and cost. So for a company new to bio, it's helping them at the start of the journey, you know, what they can do, the business case, technical, economic analysis, and then helping them on the journey to develop it. And for those already active, that's an interesting one because it's, it's kind of working with them.

[00:03:21] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Understand their existing traditional process and injecting in new techniques around AI automation, digital platforms, and so on to you, help them accelerate and turn that into a, a next gen. And so the big differentiator I think we have is that we bring an outside in perspective. You know, we try to inject techniques that we're using in other industries to disrupt traditional thinking.

[00:03:50] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: And, and also, you know, I think we're unusual in the sense that we do that end to end from ambition in a boardroom all the way to launch and, and outside the lab in areas like policy regulation, sustainability analysis, brand reinvention, things like that. All of the things that you need to make that a success from a business and commercial perspective.

[00:04:14] GE - Richard Traherne - Erum: Yeah, I love that and absolutely necessary. It is such a huge slog. To bring an, an ambitious idea into a commercial ready product. Um, and to have an organization like yours that can provide all that support is critical. And I really appreciate your, your background and I love when people have different experiences because there's always.

[00:04:38] GE - Richard Traherne - Erum: These different levels of convergence. So your career has moved from wireless innovation to deep tech, and now you're in the world of engineering biology. So what connected the dots for you? What pulled you toward biology as a next frontier?

[00:04:53] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Yeah, that's a a great question, Aaron. Um, because, you know, first glance wireless systems and. Biology might seem worlds apart. And I suppose to me there's been a, a common thread that's been about, uh, the ability to model and predict complex systems to make them. Commercially viable. So, you know, back in the days, uh, when I was actually on the bench doing, doing wireless, we pushed limits of physics so that radio signals could travel long distances, be reflected off multiple surfaces, and still get to the other end, you know, in one piece at a tiny signal level, you know, wrapped with encryption and for security, you know, and whether that was personal wise headphones or, or global satellite communication networks, the same problem existed.

[00:05:40] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: And, and interesting. My, my specialism was around high frequency electronics, so radio frequency, electronics, and unlike digital and low frequency where, you know, you're, you're trying to, um. Use the inherent properties of a radio wave to fly through the air from A to B. Um, you're trying to harness that because that's the very property that doesn't wanna keep it on the track of a circuit board.

[00:06:07] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: And so, you know, the physical properties of the electronics become part of the design. It's not just a, a simple, you know, low frequency design. So.

[00:06:20] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Areas of electronics to be modeled at a, a sophisticated level. And so I think there are huge parallels to biotech with its huge complexity. It's, you know, it's orders of magnitude more complex than that. Um, about how to turn what's traditionally been, uh, an empirical experimental domain into a predictable, commercially viable pro process.

[00:06:48] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: And, um, yeah, in terms of my attraction towards engineering biology, I would say that it's centered on, on a belief that it really is a new industrial revolution. It's not just hype, you know, you just look at the, the platform potential from it. Uh, and for me personally, being relatively new to it, it was the realization that biology was programmable and that, for me was a real aha moment.

[00:07:12] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Um, you know, the fact that we have the ability to. Design living systems with the same intents and precision that we once reserved for software or electronics. That's huge. I mean, that's a seismic shift in, in capability. Um, and then the other thing I, just to, to close on, on that question, I'd say that, you know, from a, a societal perspective.

[00:07:38] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: I have a, a strong support for any view that our current approaches are failing to win the race. You know, whether that's climate crisis, you know, national re uh, resource constraints, um, health challenges, you know, and so on. So biology is, is not just an innovation or a nice idea or a, uh, a handy thing to use.

[00:07:59] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: It's, it's actually a necessity.

[00:08:29] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Yeah, so it, it is a shift that. Yeah, I definitely recognize, and it's happening I think, more widely than, than most of us sort of expected. Perhaps it's, you know, biology is no longer confined to, you know, pharma world or academia. It's becoming, as you're saying, that foundational layer for innovation across industries, you know, from materials to energy, food, fashion, you know, even data storage and so.

[00:08:57] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Capgemini, uh, like all professional services companies, you know, we have clients that span those industries and so it's quite a useful position to become a barometer, you know, for what's going on and where the industries are heading. So, you know, I can comment on that, but also. You've reminded me that last year we commissioned a report with our Capgemini Research Institute who surveyed 1100 corporate executives and 500 startups, and we wanted to go further than some of the high level reports that had been produced before, you know, the trillion dollar industry and all of that, you, we wanted to establish what was happening in the industry in more tangible terms.

[00:09:40] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: You know, some, some stats that I recall from that were that 96% of organizations, and, and bear in mind, those 1100 corporate execs weren't bio companies. You know, these were across industries and 96% of the respondents said that they were already exploring BioSolutions in one way or another, and half of those were engaged in active experimentation or beyond.

[00:10:04] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: And then close to 70% said that they were planning to increase their investment in the next two to five years. In other words, short term. And, and, and that's not fringe, you know, that's mainstream. So we, we published that report, as you know, the time is now. And it's become our mantra in many ways with clients to say, Hey, you know, you've gotta, you've gotta take notice of this because it is a new platform.

[00:10:27] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: You know, it's changing the way we're thinking about innovating. Um, you know, biology is becoming an infrastructure because it offers something that's unique. It's the ability to create sustainable, you know, high performance solutions that traditional engineering and also manufacturing just can't match.

[00:10:46] GE - Richard Traherne - Erum: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that report. We use it all the time in our con uh, conversations with potential clients and our existing clients because. It really pointed to something really important that you were saying. Not fringe. It's happening. People want it and they wanna be able to do it right.

[00:11:03] GE - Richard Traherne - Erum: They need the resources to be able to make the decisions. Well first plan some scenarios. Like what, what resource do they resources do they have? Do they have the capital? Will they make the investment in order? Tolog, we like to use that word, biolog. Their supply chains or their. Production of their goods.

[00:11:21] GE - Richard Traherne - Erum: So it's a great report. We'll definitely link to it in the show notes, so if people have not read it, it's something you must read no matter what industry you're working in. Um, but yeah. And then like, you know, like you guys have been doing such great work at um, cap Capgemini Invent and at Capgemini, um, you led the, um, the next Frontiers initiative, which fuses design deep tech science.

[00:11:45] GE - Richard Traherne - Erum: Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Um. Like, what does a breakthrough innovation look like when those disciplines align?

[00:11:55] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Yeah, I, I love the fact that you, you've kind of framed that around the multidisciplinary aspect. I think that's. A massive part of, of how we are going to succeed with biology. And certainly for us, it's a, a huge theme and a focus at Capgemini. Um, you know, we, we work hard to bring together disciplines to avoid thinking in the traditional silo.

[00:12:16] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: So we've got biologists and chemists and data scientists and electronics engineers and, you know, sensing engineers and so on, all sitting together in our labs and, and seeing the magic happen at the intersections, or, or I should say maybe in the gaps is, is what is so amazing. And, you know, years ago I remember sitting in a brainstorm.

[00:12:39] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: This was an entirely different area. It was next generation, uh, coffee machines for kitchens and, and there was a cleaning problem. And, you know, for most of the hour we sat there and, you know, a lot of interesting ideas emerged. And then suddenly very quiet person in the corner who was an ultrasonics expert spoke up.

[00:13:00] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: You know, we had the answer. Suddenly, you know, the cleaning, the cleaning technique became clear. And so it was a, a really good example of how when you bring in those unexpected disciplines, you know, suddenly you can make a breakthrough. Um, so yeah, in, in Next Frontiers, we deliberately bring together designer, scientist, engineers across that, but also market experts.

[00:13:25] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Have seen how other markets have evolved and can translate some of that across. And, you know, so, so we're not just, you're trying to prove existing methods, but invent new ones. And if I think about our engineering biology work, that's happened quite a lot in all of the areas that we've worked in. Um, yeah.

[00:13:47] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: The first area, I suppose, is in generative AI and large language models. So we have developed specialist LLMs that act on curated data sets, and that's needed close collaboration. We wanted curated data sets because if you do that, you can radically reduce the amount of data and training that you need, and so you don't have to rely on.

[00:14:11] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Bru methods. And so that requires, you know, the biologists to be there with the data scientists and everybody else to, to figure out how to do that. And it allowed us to find breakthrough candidates that had beaten the performance of years of, of research of particular candidates in, in a matter of days.

[00:14:32] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Um, one of the examples is aase enzyme that was, uh, used to break down p. Use 99% less data than we would've done using traditional AI techniques. Um, and then we're moving on to develop our own foundational model, uh, so that organizations can access that and give them a, a kind of a protected AI approach and give them a differentiated position rather than using public models.

[00:15:02] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: And again, you know, that needs expertise across bio, um, you know, platform design as well as the data science. And then. In terms of bringing it alive. Another example I can point to is in high throughput screening. So, you know, most of our customers are looking to do the, the scale up and the scale down more effectively, and they're wanting to bring real world conditions into the lab environments so that they can produce organisms that perform better in the real world.

[00:15:34] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: And so we've.

[00:15:40] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Bring those conditions in, um, you know, so that we can control things like variation and realtime biomass and pH and dough and so on. And, and that needs fluidics engineers and sensor physicists and, you know, electronics engineers to be able to produce something that's at a, a micro tight rig, you know, well format that can be used in a lab, in traditional incubators and so on.

[00:16:14] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: I. But I, I could carry on for a long time. You're probably right to cut me off actually, because I think, you know, you've hit on a really important thing for us that, that, that multidisciplinary aspect is, is the key to it. And, and then the icing on the cake is when you bring in those other skills around it, you know, of, uh, I, I haven't mentioned Frog, who's a, a sister organization to Cambridge consultants in the group.

[00:16:37] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: They're a, a design and a business reinvention specialist. So they're bringing in, you know, the brand and reinvention. Capability and, and policy and, and regulatory insights that can help clients to kind of wrap, you know, those disciplines around the science and the tech even. So I think the, you know, it's a layered problem, but, uh, yeah, I love that multidisciplinary focus.

[00:17:39] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Yeah, it's an interesting question 'cause I think the, yeah, the landscape has a, you know, quite a complex. Complexion and, and it's ever changing. Uh, and I think, you know, it's fair to say, isn't it, that it's, it's always gonna be highly dependent on which industries are being successful in being supported by new legislation and incentives.

[00:18:00] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Uh, and actually again, going back to my wireless background, it remem you. I remember the days. Um, in the early days, in fact, I'm showing my age here. This isn't the, the six G 5G, but the, the kind of the one G where, uh, you know, Bluetooth and wifi and other short range technologies were being developed. And there were trundling along and there was a lot of debate about which the winners were going to be, and a lot of names that I could mention that, you know, you won't recognize because they fell by the wayside.

[00:18:31] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: There weren't any clear winners in terms of volume and then technology breakthroughs, like implementing Bluetooth on a single ultra low cost CMOs chip. Actually that was a, a Cambridge consultants, uh, breakthrough with their spin out Cambridge Silicon Radio and also things like, uh, hands free driving laws coming in, which suddenly.

[00:18:54] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Bootstrap the market into action because you know, there was suddenly volume and it gave, um, if you like the chat GT moments, I listened to one of your previous episodes and I remember you talking about, um, mRNA vaccines during COVID, uh, you know, regrettably being a chat BT moment. So, you know, each industry needs that kind of stimulus, I think.

[00:19:16] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: But you know, to answer your question. I think across industries, uh, consumer products, you know, personal care, food ingredients and so on, that has the advantage of really strong consumer pull from a sustainability perspective. And that's a real boon. And, and I think we're seeing strong interest and, and, and interestingly at the lab of the future level, so it's not necessarily a, an, you know, a spot engineering biology problem, but a, a next generation lab.

[00:19:46] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Challenge next generation r and d industrials, like, uh, you know, chemicals, materials, and, and agritech and things like that. I think that, you know, they're strong in volume, but the margins are typically low and the incentives aren't always heavily aligned, um, you know, to deincentivize legacy, petrochemical based options.

[00:20:08] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: So we're seeing, I would say patchy traction, some highlights, but, but some low lights as well. Um. And the high spots are the platform products that can be the foundation for many. Different, you know, forms of, of bio solutions. So you know, onic, assets of the world and other, you know, platform products like that.

[00:20:29] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: And then pharma, of course, which is undoubtedly the most invested and the most iterate, but also has the most legacy to overcome. So there we're finding that we've got clients who are well equipped. But using, you know, quite traditional methods and methods which are heavily invested. So, you know, there's a lot of inertia in them and they need a lot of support internally to convince the business to pivot to alternative methods.

[00:21:01] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: But of course, the. The returns are huge, so cutting discovery costs is, is worth it. And then energy and fuels, where I'd say, again, patchy at the moment, uh, partly due to incentives, but yeah, a very varied landscape. Uh, and each sector is looking for, its on switch.

[00:21:20] GE - Richard Traherne - Erum: Yeah. So, um, you shared all the different sectors. Some of them are. Incumbents when it comes to leveraging biology, but might have old ways of doing things. Some are completely new to biology. They know they have to do something, but they don't know where to start. So when you're talking to your clients, where do you see that they usually get stuck when it comes to implementing biology or biology?

[00:21:43] GE - Richard Traherne - Erum: Um, and how do you help them move forward to get unstuck?

[00:21:51] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: So, yeah, for some of our clients, um, they can be really sophisticated in engineering. Or digital or or manufacturing when it comes to biology, you know, for, for them it seems like they're stepping into a different universe in many ways. And, uh, and so, you know, fundamentally one of the biggest sticking points, of course, is that biology doesn't behave, you know, like code or machines out of the box.

[00:22:16] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: You know, we're in the process of making it more predictable. So it's living dynamic, it's unpredictable. And, and at the highest level, at the fundamental level, I would say the first. Overarching challenge is to build confidence in, in clients. Um, you know, because planning and budgeting is hard, you know, making it, uh, more of a honed business process, you know, like traditional technologies.

[00:22:40] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: And I, I'd say if we go beyond that, there's three areas possibly that I can think of, curve. The first is, is fundamentally understanding what biology can do for the business. Um, not just in theory, but supported by good analysis. You know, techno economic analysis, analysis of the route to market, the supply chain changes, you know, a quantified business plan.

[00:23:09] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: So you're kind of turning that business. Uh, or, or boardroom discussion into, um, one of, yeah, we're confident to proceed, you know, rather than what it seems the right thing to do. But, you know, the business plan seems a bit flaky or we've got some gaps or some things we don't understand, you know? No, we're confident to proceed and then once, once we're past that stage, it's how can you make that discovery and development process cost effective?

[00:23:38] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: You know, whether that's accelerating the discovery process, whether it's about, you know, speeding up screening, whether it's about making scale up more predictable, you know, employing computational fluid dynamic techniques to simulate your bioreactors so that you know that, you know, you can scale up confidently and without iterating and things like that.

[00:24:00] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Um, and then the other one we're seeing particularly in the consumer market is how do you bring the product level? Parameters, you know, the, you know, sensorial performance or, you know, other, other product level performance parameters back into the lab. How do you have biomarkers or, or signatures that you can look for at the lab level that give you confidence that once, once you've gone through those stages, which become more expensive, as you step through them, you're gonna get a, a good result at the end?

[00:24:31] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: So. I say fundamentally our role is about helping clients to move forward with confidence, demystifying the science, you know, translating into a, a language that resonates with their business. And I think for, for me, the most exciting moment is when. A client sees that, you know, they see you, they see that biology isn't, isn't a, a sort of a problematic science challenge.

[00:24:57] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: It's, it's a platform and that they can invest confidently in it and gain advantage across a whole load of future business areas.

[00:25:43] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Yeah, and there's a, there's a lot in there and, and it's, I think it's a really. Important question because, you know, biology doesn't, doesn't scale and, and become successful in a well plate. You know, if, if we want a Thrive bio economy globally at scale, um, you know, we've got so much to solve around the biology and the ecosystem.

[00:26:05] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: So I mentioned earlier that we're partners to the World Economic Forum for their bioeconomy initiative, and, uh, I'd love to give a, a shout out to Brynn Stanson who leads that, um, and, and, and is driving forward the thinking at the, at the Bioeconomy level and the community with Novo and Regeneron and DDSM and, and Serbia, uh, C four IR and others.

[00:26:27] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: And I'd say on the infrastructure part of the question. You know, biology needs a, you know, different kind of supply chain. You know, you're not just shipping molecules, you're growing them. So you know that that means by manufacturing hubs, fermentation capacity, cold chains, you know, the regulatory frameworks that go around that, and all of that.

[00:26:48] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: That's, that's keeping up with innovation because one of the challenges that we see is that. You know, we need innovative and agile approaches to getting that set up to boot, again, bootstrap the industry and, and that, and right now, I, I'd say that's a bottleneck. So, you know, agile piloting facilities, um, entrepreneurial minded regulatory bodies like the new regulatory innovation office in the UK led by Lord David Willetts, um, you know, things like that, that, that stimulate progress quickly.

[00:27:22] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: And on the business model side, you know, many bio-based solutions don't fit neatly into existing categories, you know? They, they, they might be more sustainable, but they're not always cheaper. At least, you know, not, not yet until we've solved, you know, some of the other problems. We know that the 10 x rule, that a disruptive product needs to be, you know, perhaps three times better, three times cheaper.

[00:27:47] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: So overall it's, you know, 10 times better in order that it disrupts an incumbent. So. You know, what we try and do is help clients think creatively about how they can unlock that. You know, how can meaningful performance be enhanced that will make a difference in that equation. Or, you know, how can you monetize an aspect like carbon savings or, you know, how, how do you partner with a brand that can value and amplify the story?

[00:28:16] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: You know, and can you start in a premium niche and, and scale from there. So that business model part of, of your question, I think is, is a key one. And it's often quite difficult because it does require, again, a, a, a very different perspective to the science. And then, and you mentioned storytelling, and this is where, you know, kudos to you guys because, you know, as, as you well know, this is, is huge.

[00:28:38] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Um, and I think, you know, your work is so valuable in this regard. Um, biology is invisible to most people. Um, you know, if you're making leather from mushrooms or the extreme, you know, talking about bringing extinct animals back to life, you, you've gotta bring people along that journey. You know, they've got to understand, you know, why that's a good thing to do.

[00:29:01] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: You know, what, what it means to them personally and societally. And, you know, we hear debates about whether synthetic biology or engineering biology are the right label, when of course we know that in fact both are pretty awful in, in general terms. Um, but, uh, yeah, and, and also, you know, failing to kind of employ that benefit of, of sort of harnessing the power of nature and turning, you know, switching on the positive.

[00:29:27] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: So, you know, consumers, um, individuals, investors, regulators, governments that, you know, everybody needs to understand not just what it is, but why it matters. And, you know, for us, the best bio companies are the great storytellers. And I'm sure you know, you've been behind many of them, but you know, those that make the science, um, and the, and the impact, uh, tangible and personal, uh, and make the future feel.

[00:29:52] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Possible are the ones that are gonna succeed and take people on that journey. You know, we're lucky to have frog in our family because, you know, they, they also are sort of, uh, in the storytelling area, uh, but also, you know, experts at brand design and brand reinvention to, to harness that set of messages in brands.

[00:30:13] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: And help companies reinvent themselves in that regard. So, yeah. Yeah. The work that you, you know, John cu at Symbo. Beatta, yeah. Dick Kitney, Paul f Freemont at Sym City and others, you know, to, to bring the communities together, to get, to, get us to think about that. I think it's so important.

[00:30:28] GE - Richard Traherne - Erum: Yeah, absolutely. And I also wanna highlight, um, you mentioned Lord David Willett, who was at Saint Ba Beta this year, and I just really appreciated that he was on stage talking about how. Open and how much he will be advocating for the development of the Bioeconomy in the uk. And he was saying all the right things.

[00:30:52] GE - Richard Traherne - Erum: Maybe I would say Mark Michael Cor chorus of darpa, um, in from the US. I mean, he was doing a bit of that. Um, but I think just. Having government involved and advocate for it, giving those green lights for people to say, yes, it's okay. Yes, we're supporting them and creating the regulatory pathway or hopefully financial incentives to be able to build a buy economy is super.

[00:31:20] GE - Richard Traherne - Erum: Important. And I just wanted make sure like that's not understated and we are all hearing that. Um, and I mean, it was cool to see, I not pretend to know, um, UK politics and how it works, but is he also a knight or is he just a, just his little side tangent. What's the difference? Oh,

[00:31:44] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: is it breaking up for you?

[00:31:45] GE - Richard Traherne - Erum: oh no. Oh no. Oh, oh no, I can't. Um.

[00:32:33] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: I feel Okay. Um, I, I would, I.

[00:33:01] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Is it, um, James or Richard? Ian Taylor.

[00:33:31] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Well, thank you. Just in the gap. Thank you for the invitation for drinks after Simba Beta. That was a, a great evening. Met some really interesting people.

[00:33:48] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Yeah. What we're not actually, I don't think, uh, and that's not from one, you know, from desire. It was just something we didn't get to quickly enough.

[00:34:27] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Yeah, yeah. No, it's funny 'cause I, um, I was drinking, uh, hazy IPAs that night that we were together. And I'd been, you know, in, in the States, I'm always careful to look at the percentages and I'd been going for one that was about 5%. But when we got into the rounds with some of the, the people who introduced us to, um, about two drinks and I thought, wow, you know, this is going to my head.

[00:34:55] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: It must have been a busy week. And Chris, my colleague, bought the next round and he, he came back and he said, I don't wanna worry you, but I've just taken the orders and I suspect you are drinking what the others are drinking, which is, uh, an 11% or something.

[00:36:29] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Yeah, sure. So. While ago, I, you know, first heard that there were more DNA combinations in the universe than atoms on earth, which blew my mind as I thought an atom was really the lowest common denominator of what we had around us. So to design new biological solutions, AI isn't a nice to have. It's essential.

[00:36:52] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: And if we want to make it as predictable as our electronic and and software technologies, it still needs to go a long way. So, you know, quantum computing needs to hurry up. So we see, you know, very real and very tangible value in the use of AI and, and breaking down design cycles. You know, transforming a domain that was slow and experimental in one that you can predict and, and so on.

[00:37:16] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Um, how a protein will fold, you know, in silico before you step into the lab. And that means for us drastically reducing the design space, uh, having fewer failed experiments, you know, fast restoration, lower costs. Uh, and that's a game changer for companies who are trying to produce, you know, bio-based chemicals or materials at scale.

[00:37:40] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: And I loved hearing. Andrew Phillips at, uh, sym Beta, you know, at Sanofi talking about his Moonshot AI platform plans. Um, and, and certainly that's, uh, a very common theme across our clients, helping them to bring generative techniques into the lab in order that, you know, we can, uh, accelerate the process from, from start to finish.

[00:38:06] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: And beyond the lab. You know, AI is helping with supply chain modeling, regulatory strategy, you know, market forecasting, all of which are critical for scaling, you know, those buyer based businesses. So, yeah, I mean, for us it's, there's a real value and a substance in the use of ai. Um, but the key is not to treat it as like replacement digital tool.

[00:38:34] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Operate it combined with deep domain expertise, you know, so that you've got a range of domain experts feeding it so that you've got meaningful insight from it. You've got curation of the data so that you can reduce the, you know, the challenge of feeding and, and deploying it. And I think that's something that separates us from, you know, some of our peers in the sense that we have those practical capabilities in the lab that we can bring to bear on the ai.

[00:39:04] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: So we're not just an AI company that, um, you know, with some people, with, you know, backgrounds in the areas. We, we have practitioners that are do it using it on a day-to-day basis.

[00:40:22] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Yeah, yeah, sure. No problem.

[00:40:35] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Yeah. No. No problem at all. No.

[00:40:58] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Yes. I mean, sustainability is an interesting topic. In relation to biotech, because you know, traditionally sustainability used to be about doing, you know, less harm, reducing emissions, cutting waste, improving efficiency and so on. But, but with engineering biology, we've got the ability to shift that towards regenerative innovation and sustainability from that perspective.

[00:41:22] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: So. It's not just about, you know, minimizing impact. It's about redesigning systems to be inherently sustainable from the ground up. And I think that's a really key distinction. So I think, you know, in the areas that we're working in within engineering, biology. One of the key principles that we, we try to keep in the center of our minds is that, you know, sustainability alone isn't enough.

[00:41:51] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Uh, you know, for commercially driven organizations, it's perhaps even just table stakes, but it, it needs to be supported by, you know, better product, performance, cost, and so on. Uh, in the World Economic Forum work that we're doing, you know, there's a little piece of work looking at, you know, what value means in the.

[00:42:11] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Uh, value chain, um, you know, to, to reinforce that. And also, you know, going back to that Capgemini Research Institute report, you know, we were talking about one of the. Feedback from that was that over 70% of the executives that were interviewed believe that BioSolutions had the potential to significantly accelerate, uh, progress towards their sustainability goals.

[00:42:33] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: So I think it, you know, it's definitely recognized as a key driver. So we help clients to, to model, you know, complex ecosystems, the supply chains for circularity, um, you know, predict the environmental impacts of new materials, you know, before they're made. Um, but with, with engineering biology, we can help clients create new materials and new molecules that are biodegradable.

[00:42:56] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: And the challenge that. We face pretty quickly is that even for companies that are used to undertaking, you know, sustainability lifecycle analysis for traditional products areas, they struggle to understand how to do that for a bio solution because, you know, the, the models are different. Yeah. They may not have the data that they need to feed the model.

[00:43:23] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: So it's an entirely, you know, different question. Um, and it also shows up in how we're helping clients to rethink their portfolios. Instead of asking, you know, how do we make this thing greener? We're asking, you know, what would, what would this look like if it were bio native from the start? And how does that fundamentally affect your, your business?

[00:43:46] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: And that opens up entirely new possibilities, um, across, you know, performance, sustainability, resilience, and. Your question reminds me of hearing Amy Treasure from, uh, Procter and Gamble at, uh, a recent event talking about her activities within p and g, um, around, you know, how, how to drive that business case through the organization in a way that is quantified and people can buy into it and agree that it's, you know, it's a good thing to do.

[00:44:20] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Um, so. I, I think that's a, a really important topic. Uh, and it's one that companies struggle with.

[00:45:40] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Projects that really sticks in my mind. It was across actually a couple of decades relationship with a client. Iridium communications and they're unique. They're the only, you know, fully global operator, operator of satellite communications in the world. They've got a, a satellite constellation that's 500 miles up in the sky that satellites travel at 17,000 miles an hour, and it forms this canopy of connectivity around the globe.

[00:46:09] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: We developed, yeah, their ground based equipment of, of, of, of modems and, and handsets and things like that. And also the, the network infrastructure, the, you know, the carrier grade network infrastructure that received all the calls. But, but basically one day I got into the office and I heard a story that, uh, had been described, uh, using the Iridium system and it was.

[00:46:39] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Uh, most astronauts he'd had to rea acclimatize to earth and he'd taken six months to do that, but then got bored because he was an astronaut. And he said, well, I'm gonna do a charity climb of Everest. So he, yeah, he, he, he did the climb. Uh, and, and as we all know, you can't predict when you're gonna get to the summit.

[00:46:58] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: He, uh, gotta the, you know, penultimate point and then waited for the weather to clear and then gotta the top. He noticed, you know, when he got the top, it was the birthday of his colleague who was still up there in the station. So he pulled out one of these Iridium phones and he dialed his number and to get the station, his call went.

[00:47:23] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: From the top of Everest, up 500 miles across two satellite, uh, cross connections until it was over Tempe, Arizona, down to Iridium's Ground Station, across to NASA's ground station. From there up to NASA's, spread a satellite that spreads communications, you know, up in space. And then from that satellite out to the International Space Station, and he stood on the top of Mount Everest.

[00:47:50] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Singing Happy Birthday with a group of sherp around him to his international Space Station. And so, yeah, I mean, when, when I, when I heard that story, I thought, you know, first of all, that's why I got into science and technology and engineering. Uh, and, and to answer your question. You know, I, I, I look back and I, I often tell that story because it does shape how I think about innovation because it require, that system requires you to pull every ounce of, of physical capacity outta the world to get the signals to do what they need to do across those distances.

[00:48:31] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Um, and bear in mind that's a low volume application. It doesn't have the volumes of mainstream mobile communication. So being really clever with how you use your, your resources and your electronics and, and, and, uh, yeah, digital technologies and so on. Um, and, and also. The whole aspect of, well, if, if you can do that in space, uh, we can do it on the ground.

[00:48:55] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: So it, it often makes me think, you know, if we can do that, then you know, we can solve some of these nearer term problems that we have in front of us.

[00:50:00] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Yeah, it is an amazing set, set of technologies and, and yeah, the, the Iridium system is particularly strong in that regard. As long as you can see the sky, you know, you'll get through. Yeah.

[00:50:41] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Okay. Well Carla, as long as you promise not to play this back to be in 10 years, I'll give you an answer.

[00:50:50] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: So, yeah, I mean, I, I think with, with engineering biology, yeah. The, the world has the potential to look radically different in 10 years. You know, we're talking. If we get this right, as you say about a shift to biology becoming a core part of how we make things, how we move, how we live, and I, I suppose what excites me personally about that is the sheer scope.

[00:51:17] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: You know, everything from, you know, materials are gonna be grown instead of mined and, you know, packaging that compost like leaves and, you know, proteins from air, electricity, and, and cities with. Decentralized bio manufacturing hubs that produce everything from, you know, food to pharmaceuticals. And so, so very much democratizing many of the processes and supply chains that we have around us today.

[00:51:44] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: And, you know, you, you and I know that's not science fiction that, you know, is seeing the seeds of that starting today. So it's within our grasp. And I think that's, that's really enticing and really exciting. Yeah. Uh, you know, and you mentioned behaviors briefly. It's, I think behaviors is, is a key ingredient, isn't it?

[00:52:04] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Because, you know, behaviors need to and, and will shift. You know, when, when we think back to the advent of all of the big technology steps, whether, you know it's steam or electricity or anything else, you know, behavioral shifts occurred and were needed. Um, and so, you know, anticipate that, you know, as consumers we're gonna be expecting products not just to be sustainable, but bio native in, in that regard, you know, supply chains, you know, we're gonna expect to be shorter, smarter, more resilient.

[00:52:41] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Um, and that of course, you know, is a, is a great response to some of the current geopolitical challenges that we've got at the moment. Um, and industries from, you know, fashion to construction redefined in, in what biology makes possible in terms of, you know, the, the common everyday, uh, commodities, you know, we have around fabrics, dyes materials, and so I suppose, you know, to answer your question directly, I I, I think the biggest change I would see is the, you know, that transformation being.

[00:53:18] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Systemic, if, if we can scale with intention, biology won't just be a tool, it'll be a, a design principle. You know, we'll be designing economies that are circular by default. Uh, you know, we'll be designing. Innovation ecosystems that are inclusive and, and distributed and, and, and harnessing the power of nature to do that.

[00:53:41] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Um, and that's on our planet. And to the extent that we need to explore further planetary homes in the future, you know, planets beyond. So, you know, the scale of its immense. You know, for me that's the opportunity. And I think it's why the basic choices that we make now about infrastructure. Policy education and some of these broader topics matter so much.

[00:54:30] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: One term, I'm gonna say huge potential, but overhyped in terms of. But watch that space.

[00:54:51] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Sorry, can we, can we skip that one? Sorry, I hadn't, yeah, I, I thought that was the, the same question and I hadn't thought about it. Sorry.

[00:55:08] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Well, I, I think that's self-serving because I, I think it is bio, isn't it? Yeah. Bioengineering, you know, moving it from misconceptions around Frankenstein esque connotations to how we can harness the power of nature for the benefit of, of, of society of.

[00:55:31] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Ooh, that's really tricky. 'cause am I allowed both? Because I think realizing a disruptive breakthrough technology, but then seeing it hit volume and success in the real world, those two things really get me going.

[00:55:59] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: So I think on the design side, perhaps biotech styles and dyes, um, you know, seeing, seeing those develop from microbes walking down a cat work, walk in a ho couture fashion house. Um. And maybe also, you know, the bioluminescence. I, I remember seeing, you know, the demos from Light Bow and others, and I think they're very cool.

[00:56:42] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: I really appreciate being on and, uh, again, fantastic work that you guys are doing. And yeah, listen, I look forward.

[00:57:01] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Podcast. Yeah, absolutely would love to. Yeah.

[00:57:17] GE - Richard Traherne - Richard: Yeah. Great to see you, Karl. And so my best wishes to Aaron. Second.