The complete conversation, in order. 2,689 words.
[00:00:00] Matt: Awesome. Mateen, thanks for sitting down with me and, uh, talking a little bit about you and Villain and, uh, DealCon. For sure. Excited to be here. Um, well, I'd love to hear just, you know, for, for folks listening, give us a little bit of your background and, and the story behind, uh, Villain. All right.
[00:00:18] Mateen: Uh, I'm going to go way back.
[00:00:21] Mateen: I love it. So, uh, so after school, I went to University of Wisconsin. Uh, my first job was with Target. I love it. And, um, at that time we were really kind of expanding into Target, digital loyalty. com, all that stuff. Um, so I had this like really fun and unique role, uh, sitting alongside the president and the CEO of target.
[00:00:45] Mateen: com doing really neat strategy work, um, and really kind of analytics driven. Fast forward, um, fell in love with tech. Moved to San Francisco, um, thought I was going to go to business school in the Bay Area. A mentor of mine was an investor in an ad tech company. And, uh, started working in ad tech. Um, first a company called AdMob, which got acquired by Google.
[00:01:15] Mateen: Then a company called 4info. And, in that, I wanted to then, Go from a being on a product side and selling to Agencies and publishers. I wanted to then start an agency. So we created a proprietary Bluetooth couponing
[00:01:35] Matt: Wow, that's interesting. Yeah
[00:01:36] Mateen: company was called song whale Okay, and that was I split time between Pittsburgh and Beijing after living in San Francisco.
[00:01:42] Mateen: We
[00:01:42] Matt: talked about that Yeah in
[00:01:44] Mateen: China for like six months Beijing was neat. Uh, it was really interesting. What time frame was that? So, this would have been 2000 2010 to 12.
[00:01:56] Matt: Okay. I, I lived there for like six months in 07.
[00:02:00] Mateen: Okay.
[00:02:00] Matt: So you speak any Mandarin?
[00:02:01] Mateen: No, zero. And you were there, you were there before the Olympics.
[00:02:05] Mateen: So I was like build up to the Olympics. Yeah. I benefited from Beijing already having the Olympics and. Kind of like leaping forward a little bit in terms of its western sensibilities. Yep. Um, because I'd been to Hong Kong before that and Shanghai before that. Those are different. Yeah, very westernized
[00:02:23] Matt: versus Beijing or
[00:02:24] Mateen: elsewhere.
[00:02:24] Mateen: But it was a fun wild ride. Came back to the States. That company was acquired. Um, More of like an acqui hire. And so, um, I'm gonna land the plane on villain. But before that, I moved to New York and I had a, um, mobile engagement company called Plife. That also went through an acqui hire. And, long story short, ended up in Dallas, found myself working in news and Um, uh, at a really tumultuous time in the U.
[00:02:53] Mateen: S. Yeah, 2015, 16, 17.
[00:02:56] Speakers 1: Yep.
[00:02:57] Mateen: Um, I think we're all more acutely aware of just politics and everything. Very true. Wanted to get back onto the brand side and Villain was sort of this, this thing that happened amongst other entrepreneurs that had sold agencies to WPP or had been on the client side or had sold a CPG company.
[00:03:18] Mateen: Right. And so, you know, if we were to do a thing and if we have access to this domain, villain. com, what do we do? Right. Yeah. What would we do if we wanted to help service and build a, an agency that focuses much on, um, business consultancy as much as typical agency services. So we kind of come in like.
[00:03:41] Mateen: Boston consulting group, if you will, but we also can execute the 50 page deck. Love it. Right. And so I think villain is, is I were to describe villain, uh, if I were to describe villain, I'd describe it as a creative and technology agency. We kind of, Fashion ourselves to be an anti agency, um, focus on business objectives and, um, focused on business outcomes.
[00:04:05] Mateen: We don't care to win awards. We always say that the people that we work with and the brands that we work with, they're the heroes. Every hero needs a villain. It's a classic line from dark night. And, um, when we first started villain, we wanted to do, um, we wanted to roll up like two to four agencies out of the gates.
[00:04:24] Mateen: Oh, interesting. And I failed. So I think, you know, the, the, knowing what I know now from being, you know, at, at, at deal con, I think I would have done those a lot differently. And I feel like I'm more equipped now and energized to, um, Figure out how to tuck a couple more agencies underneath what we're doing at villain Acquire them.
[00:04:49] Mateen: We we we have already two so far But I think now I have an actual playbook to talk through it with a little bit more confidence I like that So yeah, I mean I'm gonna leave here and I'm just gonna I'm just going to add. Crush some deals? I'm just
[00:05:04] Matt: going to add. Love it. What about, so, um, I know you guys have sort of some opportunities not only to buy agencies but also maybe even to acquire or invest in brands that you might work with.
[00:05:15] Matt: How do you think about balancing those two things?
[00:05:18] Mateen: Yeah, that's a great question. I think. I think. I think. I think. Being an, being an entrepreneur, I get drawn to other entrepreneurs, which is a problem. A shiny object. Yeah. Yeah. And so like, I should be focused on MRR, growing MRR, growing ARR, uh, reaching the next milestone.
[00:05:39] Mateen: So, you know, villain top line, call it 5 million, um, EBITDA, one, two, right? Like healthy business, but you got to double it. And you got to double it again, if you're going to be in this game. And so I have to balance it with, you know, if I'm going to take on, uh, equity or a board role with a up and coming CPG brand, right.
[00:06:06] Mateen: Then, you know, I got to really look myself in the mirror and say, what is that doing to distract me from my goal of growing my, my agency? Um, and I do. Get distracted and I allow myself to get distracted. Yeah. So I have a thing now where I can't, I can't do more than three things. I like that. And part of it is also just being a father.
[00:06:27] Mateen: So that already takes one. It's a
[00:06:28] Matt: forcing function. Yeah. So
[00:06:29] Mateen: now it's two. So every quarter I kind of just readjust how active I can be helping another startup. Um, I don't consider the mentoring work that I do. Um, inside tech stars. So they have a healthcare program in Fort worth, Texas. Um, I don't consider that part of the three cause that's just an extra bonus.
[00:06:48] Mateen: That's a bonus. That's 15 minutes here and there 30, 30 minutes here and there. Um, but we do, we will, we'll, we, as an agency, we'll bring our fees down for certain type of like, we can, if, as long as we're covering cost and we have Some equity in particular brands or agencies, we will do that. So that's where sometimes the Venn diagrams actually meet for the benefit of everyone's good.
[00:07:14] Mateen: That's really cool. We get to work on an emerging brand. Um, that emerging brand turns into, you know, something of notoriety. We get to be a part of that Genesis story.
[00:07:25] Matt: I think that concept and it ties back into what you're saying a second ago about almost having a strategy consulting approach. It's like, yeah.
[00:07:32] Matt: Leveraging your skill sets to get a piece of equity ownership in a company is a really cool way. I mean, that's a, I view that as doing a deal, right? It's just, you're not buying a business. You're not outlaying capital, but you're, I mean, if you're building a portfolio of equity investments, right? Like you're not that different from a venture capitalist and, you know, a VC might put money into a company and then they go hire an agency to do their marketing.
[00:07:56] Matt: You're just cutting those steps out and providing them with, you know, the marketing, the strategy, the guidance and getting a piece of the pie in exchange for doing that, which I think is super smart.
[00:08:05] Mateen: Yeah. Yeah. Especially around, um, uh, force multiplier things. So it can be strategy. It can be partnerships, partnerships for, uh, a brand in its infancy can be a game changer, right?
[00:08:21] Mateen: Like, cause we do. Talent deals and we also do influencer marketing like at a high level down to sort of a micro level Yeah, we can pick up the phone and we can send something to Jeremy pivot and yeah, he's likely to post it You know and so like, you know, whether it's one of our cold plunge We have a cold plunge client that I'm keen on right now Yeah, I'm also keen on health and fitness and wellness right now but I mean it's like one of those things like they they won't be able to Right.
[00:08:50] Mateen: Pick up a phone and call talent and seed particular product. And for them to do it and go through another agency or go through management or talent representation would cost tens of thousand dollars. So if you're, if you're, you know, a newish brand, you don't have millions of dollars for seeding product.
[00:09:12] Speakers 1: Yep.
[00:09:13] Mateen: And so I think the force multiplier thing is where I find the equity play. can come in and be beneficial for both parties. Can only do that so many times though. So, cause you know, I've also worked for equity before. I've had startups too, and on paper it can mean something. And in reality it can mean something totally different.
[00:09:32] Mateen: That is very, very
[00:09:32] Matt: accurate. Yeah. Um, so tying that in to back to deal cons, what's been, I mean, you've done some deals, you've had some exits, you know, you know, the space pretty well. What's been the biggest takeaway for you or the biggest kind of insight that you've had?
[00:09:49] Mateen: I think the biggest takeaway is that there's multiple ways to get to your destination.
[00:09:56] Mateen: And I think I've just been programmed because I, because my, I've raised money from VC. So like my track has always been more sort of traditional around you, you know, you, you, you raise money, you build the enterprise value, you, you try to have an exit. And so. Prior to the agency thing, it was similar, sort of like one track, you know, grow organically, get to a meaningful EBITDA, let's call it five million.
[00:10:25] Mateen: I mean, that's like kind of the milestone I think we all want to reach here. But in terms of how did you get there? I think, um, yeah, the, the, what I have realized, and it's been sort of just a massive aha moment, um, has been like, dude, organic. Sucks. If you can do it, great, but organic is going to take, it can take a while.
[00:10:52] Mateen: It's
[00:10:52] Matt: like taking the machete through the jungle.
[00:10:54] Mateen: Yeah, it can take a while. And if you can find like minded entrepreneurs that want to, want to do this actively and you know, I, I think, you know, with the group of people that are here, I think it's actually a, the mindset's more like, let's do it. Let's do it again.
[00:11:11] Mateen: Let's do it again. Let's do it again. And if that's the case, I think that that becomes a model that you can kind of lean on.
[00:11:17] Speakers 1: Yep.
[00:11:18] Mateen: Right. Because it's not like I'm going to be, it's not like I'm going to retire.
[00:11:21] Speakers 1: Yeah, exactly. Right.
[00:11:22] Mateen: So let's do it again. Let's do it again. And so I think from that perspective, the fact that, you know, it's just not, it's not a linear path.
[00:11:30] Mateen: There's multiple ways that these deals can take shape. Very. And for me, I've always thought about it as just kind of like, Grow organically, sales and revenue, right? Is the arbiter of all things and can, and can hide a lot of issues. But you can acquire sales revenue. Um, you can acquire great talent. So I think that's, that's the biggest thing.
[00:11:51] Matt: And I mean, I think about it too, like, I mean, I think organic is hard, right? Um, but at the same time, like, I think, They work best in conjunction, right? So it's like you shouldn't cast aside M and A. A lot of people don't even think about M and A as a growth strategy, right? But it's like M and A is a super powerful growth strategy.
[00:12:07] Matt: Um, and organic dovetails with that. Or if you're doing both, then you're getting almost a compounded benefit of doing, doing them together. But a lot of folks just get stuck on the railroad of like, Hey, organic. And they don't even have a blinders on. They don't even think about M and A as a possible way to scale.
[00:12:25] Mateen: Yeah, I think M& A can solidify your path to your North Star in a much quicker way. Yep. Because, well, I'll tell you, organically, even if we're at a good clip, there's churn. Yeah. Like, the problem with the agency business is that at a certain point, they outgrow you or you outgrow them. Period. Yeah. It's very few opportunities where it's like Saatchi and Saatchi and Toyota and it's a 30 year relationship.
[00:12:54] Matt: Yeah. That's a good point.
[00:12:54] Mateen: For like three or four of our clients in the last 12 months, Matt, I mean, we've gotten to the point where we've grown it to the point where they now are large enough where they want to bring it in house. Yeah, exactly. They eventually. And so, and so they've been, they're, they're in the process of in housing.
[00:13:11] Matt: You got
[00:13:11] Mateen: them there. I mean, that's like a, I guess that's okay. I mean, it's, but you know, it doesn't make you feel good when they're like, we're going to in house this in 90 days. Like, let's talk about succession plans and making sure that we have all everything that you've worked on for the last 24 months.
[00:13:27] Mateen: Right. And so I think the MNA part can help that. And I think MNA around, um, sort of this like symbiotic. Relationship services, right. Can be really helpful. Like for me with villain, you know, if it's a dev shop or highly, highly creative beyond the creative that we're doing or runs running media, like that's a creative to me, right?
[00:13:52] Mateen: Like, cause we're really good at the strategy. We're really good at the project management. We're really good at the account management. Yeah. You slot
[00:13:58] Matt: in a couple of those sort of like value added services and it's one plus one equals three. A hundred percent. Awesome. Well, dude, Mateen, thank you for coming and talking about, you know, doing deals and some of the awesome stuff you've done at Villain and sharing a few insights with us.
[00:14:13] Matt: For sure. Thank you for having me. Good to have you, man. Cool. Short, sweet, easy.
