The Reality of Brand Building: Strategies for Sustainable Growth

[00:00:00] Matt: obviously the social thing is, is important, but I, I feel like just the point of sale is changing too. And, and more and more people are checking out via shop pay and safe credit cards on their phones and stuff like that. So I only see that trend accelerating and getting more important in the next couple years.

[00:00:44] Kelly: Everyone. Kelly McGuire with IDE Digital. Excited to get into today's topic.

[00:00:49] Todd: Everybody, Todd Kelly's partner.And we have Matt back with us again. Who's our e-com retail media. Strategy expert. Thanks Matt. Welcome.

[00:01:00] Matt: Thanks for.

[00:01:02] Todd: it's September.

[00:01:03] Todd: Apparently, according to some of the information I'm reading, people are already starting their holiday shopping earlier every year. So I guess pretty soon in like June, back to school will be like January and holiday and we'll just like reverse our years entirely. But for the sake of this conversation Matt, you and Kelly, I got some just prompts to pick your brains about holiday shopping and.

[00:01:28] Todd: What's coming up? So I thought we could touch base on some stats that just came out about sort of the growth projections for holiday shopping. Some topics around mobile being. Heavy dominance again in shopping, but even more so. Of course everybody's talking about ai. So like to pick your brains on ai, sort of powered personalization of shopping.

[00:01:52] Todd: Like are people going to be asking Chad GPT, Hey, my boyfriend or girlfriend or husband or wife or my dog is this or that, and giving them this long prompt and like, what should I buy them? And getting shopping lists, AI powered shopping lists. We know that the socials are playing a big role in shopping now.

[00:02:11] Todd: But some stuff Kelly and you and I riffed about not that long ago, was sort of speed and fulfillment and how that's like becoming an expectation now. You know, click and click and pick up, click and shop, those kinds of things. And we can talk about if, if we think sustainability or, or eco-conscious brand.

[00:02:30] Todd: Plays, have any, have any movement. So, so here's the latest stats. E-commerce holiday sales are projected to grow even bigger than 2024, so that's good. That means we're still seeing growth. And some of those statistics are saying that a percentage, upwards of 10 plus percent or 15 plus percent are planning on starting their shopping in September and October.

[00:02:54] Todd: I dunno about you guys, but I have been into Home Depot and places like that and I'm already seeing holiday stuff out in September, which blows my mind. So I don't know. What do you guys think about the whole early shopping thing? What do you think about when you walk into a Target or a Home Depot and they've got stuff out two and a half, three months in advance?

[00:03:16] Kelly: I mean, this is something that I, that I think about as far as the. Timing of, of the holiday shopping period. It's, I feel like it's something that's evolved over time and it, for the longest time, it was sort of a novelty around that, that whole Black Friday and then that turned into Cyber Monday and then it stretched out into kind of the week leading in, and now I feel like it's at least the entire month of November and now you have to prep leading into it.

[00:03:40] Kelly: And it, I don't know. To me, I've thought about this before on whether or not it's lost sort of the novelty or the, the trigger effect that it was meant to have. And now it's just become so expected and I almost feel like you, there's a, a downside to it where you're training audiences in a way that is not always beneficial, where, you know, we've had this conversation with clients on, if you're not careful, you can kind of arbitrarily create a waiting period of people like, well, I'm just gonna wait to buy.

[00:04:08] Kelly: And now you're sort of cutting yourself off into this area. And then if your offer is ever not as good as expected, you can really create your own problems. And so. That's, that's one of the things that I think about is how audiences and consumers have sort of been trained around this idea of holiday shopping and how that shifted and evolved and, and as it's gotten noisier, it's harder to create novelty, but now there's an expectation and delay that causes all these other problems to navigate.

[00:04:34] Kelly: You know, I don't know what the new sort of breakthrough is. I mean, you see it with, you know, Amazon Prime Day and all these other things that come through. I dunno. It, it feels like it was a novelty and, and it was a sales tactic at one time. Then it became an, an expectation and now I don't know what kind of the new thing that'll create that novelty or that that boost effect is gonna be, but I feel like we're on the precipice of something kind of iteratively needing to change around it to be practical.

[00:04:58] Matt: I agree. I feel like it's been diluted. It just keeps stretching out further and further. And obviously there's a reason behind it because consumers are purchasing these goods earlier and earlier. But I still think as a brand or an e-comm business, there's a way to sort of save some chips to go big. And the earlier you use those chips, it's sort of like a a little bit of a bet to gamble.

[00:05:17] Matt: Whereas if you want to really capture some of that heightened demand for like the big five. Like Friday to cyber, like you kind of can't use those too early. But also if you don't start too early, you might lose out on some of the early demand. But I also think it's different for every business. I know we all, we talk about that like in every podcast.

[00:05:33] Matt: Like a lot of this stuff doesn't apply broadly to the market. But I, I was in ACE Hardware last week and saw the same thing. I walked in there to buy some like patio chairs for a. Harvest party where I'm like making tomatoes from the end of the summer and all the end caps were all like Santa and Halloween kind of stuff.

[00:05:50] Matt: So I'm wondering also maybe in like the commodity markets, like Home Depot and things like that, you just get people who are just gonna put stuff in their cart that might be very different from like an e-comm business that sells a, a very specialized single category. Good. So it might be different

[00:06:04] Matt: for everybody.

[00:06:05] Kelly: impulse and gifting are probably very different things when you think about it that way, right? Decoration for your own situation or circumstance. Versus forward planning, gifting versus just the deal seekers, which is what cyber black credit and cyber money always was. I think that's a good point.

[00:06:19] Todd: So I, I have to ask the question because I'm, slightly older of the bunch. And so maybe a little bit more old school. So Matt, when you saw that, does it bother you that you're trying to buy, buy like stuff? 'cause you're having this like, you know, end of summer. Harvest like thing, and you walk in a store and there's Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas stuff out.

[00:06:43] Todd: I, I'll just save the record for me. It pisses me off. Like it's actually a bummer and a turnoff for me because I don't need to be, and I don't want to be thinking about Thanksgiving and Christmas in September, August or September. Like, I want to enjoy the seasonality of things and I wanna start thinking about maybe.

[00:07:02] Todd: Thanksgiving in like mid to late October and Christmas and like, you know, late October, maybe early November, like when you're in the season in the field and the vibe of things. Now I walk into Home Depot and I'm like four C, I'm like four holidays ahead of like what season I'm in. I'm like that, that's lame.

[00:07:18] Todd: Like who, who's driving this Is consumer demand driving? This is, is like manufacturing and fulfillment driving? This is, or is it marketing that's driving this?

[00:07:29] Matt: That's a good last question. They an they answered the first one. It definitely bums me out. I'm I was born December 23rd, so I'm like a Christmas baby, so like Christmas spirit and the holiday spirit, Hanukkah, everything is like, I just love it so much. It's such a great time of year. So when I see it this early, it, it bums me out.

[00:07:44] Matt: It just feels. A little bit overly, maybe like consumery, but it's, to answer your last question, I think it's just people making, people love it so much that they're willing to buy it

[00:07:55] Todd: That's not true. To interrupt that, the opinion that you just gave, Matt, if I were to ask anyone in my neighborhood or any circle of people that I talk to on any given day, they all say the same thing. Oh, I hate how all this stuff is showing up so early, and why are they doing this? Why? So if that

[00:08:13] Matt: Yeah.

[00:08:13] Todd: potentially the general consensus maybe of consumers or is that the small percentage and the large percentage is like, yeah, I wanna buy it now.

[00:08:22] Todd: Get it on sale, get it early so I don't have to think about it.

[00:08:24] Kelly: Well, I can guarantee you that bus, that a place like Home Depot or a hardware, they're in the business of maximize. Using their retail space so they're only using an end cap or, or putting that floor space out. If there is demand or, or statistics that say it is useful, but I do think it,

[00:08:41] Todd: Are they creating the demand by putting the stuff out?

[00:08:43] Kelly: And that's what I'm saying is, is there, there must be some statistic or data that is saying that you can create an arbitrary consumer demand, whether that's fear of missing out or guilt or, or you know, the opportunism of getting ahead of it or, or things like that.

[00:08:57] Kelly: But they're all, they're only gonna do that if, if people are buying it and it's kind of creating it because that. That's their job is to maximize their floor space and their retail opportunity. And so someone somewhere's job is probably to analyze what is going to drive the most profitability on my end cap and my high value space.

[00:09:16] Kelly: And somewhere along the lines, statistics probably said it was seasonality and I think that there might be a play. The way that people value that, that type of merchandise. I've always said some of the best businesses I think to be in are weddings and babies and pets, because there's just something about those things that people don't have the same cost benefit analysis.

[00:09:37] Kelly: They don't have the same scrutiny on value that they're getting in those things. They'll just spend on their babies and their pets and their weddings. I feel like seasonality is the same thing, like decorations. And perception and sort of the fun of that. I don't think people scrutinize the cost value as much as they would almost all utilitarian items.

[00:09:56] Kelly: And so there's probably something to be said about, you don't need this decoration, but it's cute or it pops and that might just tug your heart. So I mean, it creates more impulse and you'll sell more. And there's so much psychology I think that goes into those things.

[00:10:10] Matt: I agree, and you do always say that pets.

[00:10:14] Kelly: It's a dream.

[00:10:15] Matt: Yeah.

[00:10:15] Kelly: I mean, I think they did. I think like pet costumes is probably the most profitable thing on planet.

[00:10:21] Matt: . I also think there's, maybe because it's so early and everyone's, Todd, kinda what you brought up of, like, everybody would say that maybe there's, that's like a almost a marketing angle. Like I feel like the days in between Christmas and New Year's, there's always that like, get what you really want, which is sort of like a little bit anti gifting.

[00:10:38] Matt: You've just got gifted all this stuff that you're probably gonna return and get what you really want. I wonder if there's some sort of like pre-holiday hook of brands sort of reacting. The fact that we probably all agree it's starting too early. I'm not sure what it would be. But it could be a fun little, like pulse sort of like understanding where consumers are at right now.

[00:10:55] Matt: Everyone's probably feeling kind of annoyed in the next month of like everything starting too early. Maybe there's a way to to own that message in a way.

[00:11:03] Todd: I, I agree. I like, again, I don't, that's why I asked you the question. There's no one I know that I talk to in my circle of, of friends and family and whatever. That is not irritated by all this stuff showing up far too early. So again, if that's the case, why are companies, why are retailers and why are brands doing it?

[00:11:21] Todd: And Kelly, to your point, I think that retailers are doing it because if they put out Halloween stuff in August, home Depot creates, you know, a whole section of Home Depot as they do with Halloween stuff in August. Of course people are gonna go like, well, I've gotta get it now because if I wait until like September, all this stuff's gonna be gone, so I have to buy it now.

[00:11:41] Todd: But what's the point, right? They could have put the same merchandise out on September 25th, and they still would've probably sold it all by October 15th. Why do you need to put it out in August? We've, I mean, I don't know. We need to keep kicking this question around, but that's

[00:11:57] Kelly: No, I, I think it, it opens up a really interesting thought and I think it, this is indicative of what I would consider a, a broader problem, challenge, use whatever you want to it. There's an element of, I'm gonna keep using kind of catchphrases here, of keeping up with the Jones' element to it, right? Where it's like if Lowe's does it, home Depot has to do it, or they miss out on the customers that are gonna go on that.

[00:12:19] Kelly: And I think there's so much of that. I think that happened with the Black Friday, cyber Mondays. Well, if they're gonna offer a discount, I have to offer a discount. If they're gonna extend it a week, I have to extend a week. There's almost this. Self, self-fulfilling prophecy of chasing everyone that tries to do something unique and outside the norm.

[00:12:35] Kelly: And it creates that expectation. It all goes back into the psychology to me, which is, you know, then you get trained Well, I'm not gonna buy from that brand 'cause their discount is in as good as that one. Or they're not offering the same thing. Or I'm gonna wait. And it, I think it creates a problem where everyone almost undercuts each other.

[00:12:51] Kelly: It's kind of like the price wars that that would happen. Where everyone ends up a little bit of a loser because if you, you can't be the one outlier if, if there's a wave of momentum going there, because you'll, you may stand on principle, but you're gonna lose in reality, and it creates this huge problem that goes through that.

[00:13:09] Kelly: And, you know, 'cause my, my first thought when you guys are saying like. Well, what, what is the norm? What should you do? I'm like, well, maybe the new way to break through is to be contrarian and find some unique way and be like, well, I'm not gonna do Black Friday, cyber Monday. I'm gonna do the month of December.

[00:13:24] Kelly: And it, it sounds good in theory, and maybe that one piece of novelty might make you break through, but if it were to work, everyone's gonna follow the winner, right? So let's say a, a really clever brand did that. Inevitably the next season, a bunch of brands are gonna be like, well, now we're gonna do discount December instead of Black Friday, cyber Monday.

[00:13:43] Kelly: Like, everyone's gonna chase the thing that works. 'cause everyone there's very few sort of leaders, there's a lot of followers into in that kind of learning those lessons on those types of things.

[00:13:51] Todd: So back to what I said, it's marketing. It's nothing more than marketing.

[00:13:56] Kelly: Everything is mostly marketing and some degree or another that's, that's a reality of life in so many ways, unfortunately.

[00:14:02] Todd: Alright let's move on to the next topic. We beat that one up pretty good. Let's talk mobile and social. The, the use of the mobile device and the interaction with social apps and shopping, where do you guys think that universalized this year versus last year, do you think people are. Way more mobile active and social shopping active.

[00:14:29] Todd: 'Cause most people aren't shot. You know, you can't shop from TikTok on your laptop necessarily. So it's very much a mobile, very much a social platform. You start to see it on Instagram, TikTok and the likes where you start seeing all the same sort of eTail selling of the holiday shopping season.

[00:14:48] Todd: Where do you guys sit personally with your own shopping experiences? How much of your shopping do you buy from mobile and social apps versus retail and online? And what do you think the general consensus is?

[00:15:03] Kelly: I have an overall perspective, but I mostly wanna set up Matt and, your sort of perspective on what, on what I'm gonna say because my first thought around it, specifically when it comes to mobile and social. It dovetails off a little bit of the previous conversation we had around shipping expectations and things like that, where I think the world is shifted really heavily with an attention span and a tolerance issue where people's attention span and their ability to go from discovery to purchase and their tolerance of journeys and, and how easy or hard it is to make a decision and to process things and to go through things is really, really short.

[00:15:40] Kelly: And so. That's where I think mobile and social becomes really important because they are vehicles to go from. I've never heard of this product to, I've purchased it in the shortest way possible. So I think why I, it's a little bit of the Amazon effect although that's a byproduct of it, but I think that that attention span and that tolerance for friction is at an all time low or high, however you want to put it. That's why I think those become so important. 'cause they solve that attention span and that friction tolerance that is, I, I think is the biggest hindrance to, to commerce in general in this day and age, especially as you go through the generations.

[00:16:18] Todd: Educators, you, you come from the worlds of, of the brands e-commerce, Amazon, Walmart, like you've seen you. You've seen the biggest of the big, so where does mobile and social sit with all of that from your experience?

[00:16:34] Matt: I think like broadly holiday is so competitive and such an important moment in. Digital commerce, that every trend that's kind of happening in digital . Commerce is just like heightened during holiday, meaning mobile is that much more important. Personalization is that much more important. Social media is somewhat important.

[00:16:55] Matt: Additionally, I think what's happening is just you have this younger generation that's getting older and is getting a bigger share of all these categories. So as they traditionally like use social and checkout on mobile, the whole market sort of is shifting that way. But I also think what's happening for me as a consumer is.

[00:17:12] Matt: Just the ease of what's happening on Shopify with Shop Pay. It is so much easier to check out on my phone that I've kind of shifted most of my spending just to mobile and like everything from Discovery to actually checkout. I used to be a consumer that would get discovery, put together a list and checkout on my desktop, but now I'm like a hundred percent all the way through with shop pay and things like that.

[00:17:35] Matt: So, obviously the social thing is, is important, but I, I feel like just the point of sale is changing too. And, and more and more people are checking out via shop pay and safe credit cards on their phones and stuff like that. So I only see that trend accelerating and getting more important in the next couple years.

[00:17:51] Todd: So, so you said you're almost exclusively, you even said a hundred percent mobile shopping. Is that true? Like, do you think this year for like buying your Christmas gifts and stuff like that, do you think almost all of your shopping will occur through a mobile device? And how much, if that's the case, how much does. discovery usually play a role in either things you're looking for or things that the algorithm is suggesting you buy.

[00:18:20] Matt: For me, it's, it's, it is my purchase habit is almost a hundred percent on mobile now, which I think I'm prob I might be a little bit extreme, a little bit of an outlier, but it is just so easy and the brands that I like are all typically on Shopify or have this like accelerated checkout function, but.

[00:18:36] Matt: I'm finding out about brands right now. What's interesting is in the apparel world, which is generally like where most of my purchases are, especially for gifts, I'm like a big apparel gifter. Is everyone's putting out their fall, winter, like lookbooks and stuff right now. So they're dropping all their stuff.

[00:18:53] Matt: It's all on Instagram for me, and I'm sort of finding out and keeping awareness there. But just the ease of purchasing is just so much better on mobile for me that I've, I've kind of completely shifted over just doing things there. Yeah.

[00:19:04] Kelly: I have a, I have a question on that experience in, in kind of the, the perspective. So kinda my commentary was around ease of, of use and, and the sort of the attention spa area. But I almost wonder does making it so easy to impulse buy and discover and to check out, does that remove. Too much of the scrutiny of the purchase.

[00:19:28] Kelly: And is this a good fit or is this the brand that I like? Or is the product in there where you almost can buy too quickly, which then contributes to the whole return culture and all of the, and Todd, you talked about sustainability and the, the eco impacts of things. And I know the whole return culture, and again, Amazon's a big driver of this problem is does that almost create an inherent problem where it's like, it's so easy and quick to buy?

[00:19:53] Kelly: The sort of commitment level that it takes is maybe not there, that that almost is gonna create its own problem down the road where you, you buy so fast and you return so easily and it's just like, I don't know, like, is, does that water down brand loyalty and scrutiny and you know, the consumer's obligation to, to really do their own research and believe in it?

[00:20:14] Kelly: Or is it just like, oh, I'll buy it if it doesn't work, I'll return it. It's no big deal. And those types of things, like, I dunno if what my question is in there, but it, it sparks this thought of. Does making it too easy to buy, create ripple effects to the entirety of the the ecosystem.

[00:20:30] Matt: Definitely. I mean, I would a hundred percent agree with that, especially as you have the brands that are sort of mobile first and urgency first, like Temu and things like that are just like, if you ever get a Temu email, they're like the most urgent need to do it now, kind of thing. And the price is so low that I think that's just maybe where, I don't know if we wanna start talking about culture, where culture's going, but I definitely think all those things do lead to more returns.

[00:20:58] Matt: Sustainability packaging floating around. So maybe there's gonna be some movement that's anti that. Back to marketing of like, everyone's trying to hype you up to buy everything now, everyone. Wait, wait. We're gonna do something really special in a few months. That might be, that might be the angle, but I think you're onto something for sure.

[00:21:14] Matt: There. I hope I'm, now, I'm, now I'm questioning my habits though. Maybe I like now I need to slow down. Todd. What, what, what you're, what you're thinking.

[00:21:25] Todd: I mean, I, I think you're both right. I think what Kelly's talking about is an existential crisis within the generations and the tech and the involvement of technology. So we can, we can ladder this up to AI as the next conversation. Or, or we can save that and talk about you know, sustainability, speed, fulfillment of shipping, things like that.

[00:21:45] Todd: But yeah. I, I have read some reports that there's a movement amongst the, the real young generations, like the sub 16 year olds right now, they're shunning smartphones. They are going back to analog type, like dumb bones, if you will. Because there is, there is a part of culture and a part of the, of the gen alpha, I guess.

[00:22:14] Todd: I think they're younger than Gen Z that are starting to see what's happening with Gen Z and millennials, and they don't like what they see. And they're like, if this is where our world's going and at this pace, our generation is doomed because there will be no reality to life anymore. And that's why I think it's a larger sort of existential crisis of like, if you think about it, it goes back to what I said.

[00:22:36] Todd: Is it all marketing? Yeah. It seems to be all marketing because it is a. Marketing algorithmic machine. That's driving our behavior now culturally in a lot of ways. And it's forcing people to shop and buy in ways that is, you know, would be abnormal just five to 10 years ago. And I don't know from a sustainability standpoint, from a, you know, just all those kinds of things, is that really, is it possible for us to continue going.

[00:23:08] Todd: Down that scene. And Patagonia produced a film last year called Shit Anthropocene, and it's about consumerism and it's about mainly about the perel industry. Matt and you and I both worked in the perel and fashion industry and so, you know, we know how environmentally awful producing clothing is. It's really, really bad and there are landfills the size of San Diego that have nothing but just clothing in them.

[00:23:35] Todd: It's just, it's a disaster beyond comprehension, but just, you know, it's not, it's not out there so people don't, you know, think about it or know it, but I think culturally and Matt, this is where you can expand. I think we're at a very pivotal moment where if, if things keep, I mean, how much faster can we go?

[00:23:54] Todd: How much easier can it be to click and buy? How much more boxes and, and shipping can we sustain? Before, before something breaks. And is it, and is it an environmental global break? Is it a humanity break? I don't know. But to your point, Matt, culturally, I'm starting to see this gen alpha movement that's sort of anti, and I think it's a very small fraction of gen alpha that's sort of going this way.

[00:24:23] Todd: But I, I don't know, culturally are, are there other things that you guys are seeing or hearing when it comes to social and shopping and discovery? I mean, look for. We have a social commerce tech company that we are in startup mode on. So what are we doing? We're empowering and enabling people to discover products and buy them with far less you know, clicks or, or taps or anything on a mobile device.

[00:24:51] Todd: I mean, we are literally, Kelly, we're making what Matt is saying, he's a consumer of. We're making it just that much easier for people to just go see, see us, see something in their feed, go. I wanna buy that. And it's four taps and it's, and it's on their Apple Pay or their Google Pay and they're out and it's being shipped to them.

[00:25:08] Todd: But to your point, Kelly, they go, oh, and it shows up. That's not really what I thought it was gonna be. It's not really what I want. And I didn't really research it. I just bought it 'cause it was there in my feed and it was easy. I'll just return it. Like, what, what, how, how is that changing culture and the impact of the world?

[00:25:26] Kelly: Yeah, I mean, in theory the hope is that there's authenticity behind what's driving that connected to, you know, the creators and there's, there's problems with everything. I mean, as, as you talk through it, I mean, I, I agree. It's a, a challenge, but I have 2, thoughts of mind on it where. I think, you know, it can that genie be put back in the bottle, right?

[00:25:45] Kelly: Like, it's not like, you know, yes, you, you have movements for good and change all these things, but the reality is, is if marketing works and people make money doing it, someone's always gonna do it. And they're always gonna fill that vacuum in that void. And, and it works for a reason. It's not suddenly gonna stop working.

[00:26:03] Kelly: And that's really hard. I mean, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. It doesn't mean that change isn't good, but. How realistic is it? Like, you know, progress and movement forward, kind of that momentum always happens. And then the other side of my mind is like, I feel like the same alarmist thing that we're saying right now, which I.

[00:26:19] Kelly: Believe in and, and buy into. It's been said forever, you know, going back to the industrial revolution and people saying that's gonna be the end of the world. And I saw this funny anti, you know, you say that thing about young kids and, and smartphones and I, I saw a funny anecdote or I heard, heard it around, you know, there was a time in history when people thought reading was too much for kid and they kids and they said it was reading fever and these kids are gonna be corrupted by reading too much.

[00:26:43] Kelly: And that was the technology of the day. That was too much. And so there's always. A certain degree of it. So what's reality, what's progress, what can be done about it? What's realistic? I, I don't have answers all these things, but it's, it's an interesting exercise to uncover it and to think about it and to come to some of your own conclusions around it.

[00:27:00] Kelly: I think all you can do is do better.

[00:27:02] Todd: let's talk about AI then. So, I dunno about you guys, but I'm a, I'm a pretty daily chat GPT user or other uh, ais. And I personally find it incredibly more beneficial and valuable to train. The AI to, you know, do certain things or think certain ways. Like for for sure we have it all.

[00:27:25] Todd: We each have our own versions of our AI engines we're using for work, and we have it trained on things that we're thinking about for marketing and strategy and all these kinds of things. And, and then I have, you might have other ones for your hobbies or whatever, like I do. I have not tried it, but I intend on trying this year to go through a series of prompts.

[00:27:47] Todd: See if, 'cause I'm a terrible Christmas shopper I'll just state that for the record. Unless my wife or kids tell me exactly what they want, if I don't get a Santa's list, I am terrible at buying things. So I'm gonna try this year to see if I can surprise myself and maybe a family member by using AI to help me. Come up with conjure up a, a, a new item gift to get somebody, and I'm gonna have to tell it like they're like this, they like these kinds of things. They're in this stage of their life or whatever. Like, I'm gonna try and train it with everything I can feed it so that it will give me back the best Christmas gift I could possibly ever buy.

[00:28:24] Todd: Do you think that's real or not possible yet? And how many people do you think are gonna do that?

[00:28:29] Matt: I'm actually prompting my cat GPT right now on best sweatpants for former Pro surfer. Runs a digital marketing agency 2025, and it's coming up with a bunch of very specific recommendations, so I absolutely think people are gonna be using this way, way more. I actually haven't thought about that use case of thinking through gifting and things like that, but.

[00:28:51] Matt: Maybe that's for another podcast, but I mean, brands are gonna need to start thinking through how to optimize against these engines and, and populate on these lists too.

[00:28:59] Kelly: I also think you're giving, giving the ai AI a little bit too much credit there, right? There's always the argument around AI is only as good as the prompting and the inputs you put into it, right? And so your ability. To dissect and describe who you're buying for and, and provided the training materials of who is that person, what do they like, what is all of that, and to iterate and to come through that, the better you are at that.

[00:29:22] Kelly: It, you know, I look at the I, I look at AI as not kind of replacing it. I look at it as an enhancement because if I'm really good about thinking through what I'm teaching it or training it or guiding it through, that's gonna improve those outputs. And so it's still. You know, it's a processing engine that's basically taking a lot of fragmented thoughts and the human brain works in very fragmented ways and it's organizing it.

[00:29:43] Kelly: So if you're really good around, who is it? What have I bought them in the past? What are their emotions like? The deeper you go into that and the more it kind of. Prompts you and guides you to give inputs, then it's going to consolidate it together. And I think it's really cool when you think about it that way, but it's still a byproduct of your knowledge and history and basis on that person that you're trying to seek that output for.

[00:30:04] Kelly: And if used that way, I think it could be really cool.

[00:30:06] Todd: Right, which is why I said for family, right? So for my wife, I can clearly tell Chad, GBT, everything it needs to know about my wife and her age and what she's into and what she likes, and you know, things like that. I can say, you know, I've gotten her jewelry from this designer before and she really likes it.

[00:30:21] Todd: Tell me things. So like I'm going to, this year as an experiment, I'm going to see if chat, GBT, I'm gonna input every fa my wife and both my kids and my dog. And I'm gonna tell it everything it needs to know about my, my family, and I'm gonna see if it will give me back, like legit real shopping sort of suggestions or ideas to not, you know, to enhance what, what I'm gonna go get.

[00:30:47] Todd: So,

[00:30:48] Kelly: really quick though. You know what the irony of this conversation go going back around is it is at the end of the day, the system still needs a point of reference to give you suggestions on that prompt and guess how it's gonna prioritize what it brings back. Quality of marketing, of brands that are in the market and the how much social's being talked about these brands and how much exists in SEO and all of that.

[00:31:07] Kelly: That's how it's gonna prioritize and pick, these are the best sweatpants or this is the best jewelry. So it all comes back around to marketing.

[00:31:15] Todd: That's why I started this off saying, is it all just marketing? Are we all just victims of marketing tricks that get better and better every year or they just evolve every year? Alright. We've said a lot about holiday shopping. We talked about mobile and we've talked about AI and we've talked about sales are supposed to grow, which is good for brands and companies, and maybe it's not good for the landfills and the ecosystem of of the world because.

[00:31:40] Todd: Stuff gets thrown away and returned and blah, blah, blah.

[00:31:43] Todd: but any, any final comments on any of this today?

[00:31:46] Matt: No, I'm excited to talk more about AI and, and things like that, especially how brands can maybe leverage it to cut corners during a busy, busy time. But I'd say happy holidays to, to everybody. It's already starting. So.

[00:31:57] Kelly: Happy holidays in September. There we go. Byproduct of it.

[00:32:00] Todd: Ah. what do you, what do you

[00:32:03] Kelly: I mean, for me it's, you know, again, we, we've said it a few times, everything's about marketing. I would add in psychology to that. Right? It's all, at the end of the day, it's human behavior. It's psychology. It's, it's. How, how is that stuff being either influenced or manipulated or, you know, leveraged you know, whatever you want to talk about.

[00:32:20] Kelly: I, I, I think it's all interesting. I mean, these are the things that, you know, we're faced with every day. We support clients in reaching their, their customers and driving the behaviors that we want, and, you know, trying to guide them to make the best decisions in the realities and what's coming down the road.

[00:32:35] Kelly: I think that's all we can all do is, you know, what, how does AI play a role in that? How does holiday promos play a role in that? How do websites play a role in that? These are all just variables in, in getting that human behavior to, to go in a direction that I don't know that, that we need to influence it, which is an interesting existential thing to think about it in that context, but maybe that's, maybe that's oversimplifying or overcomplicating it.

[00:32:58] Todd: it is I'm not gonna say happy holidays because it. Not holiday time. It is 76 78 degrees in San Diego right now, it's still summer, so I'm gonna say happy towards the end of summer and maybe start thinking about your fall coming up because Damnit, it is not holiday season yet. Matt? No way. Not yet.

[00:33:20] Kelly: I'm gonna go look into Pet Halloween costumes.

[00:33:22] Matt: Yeah.

[00:33:25] Todd: All right, boys, we'll talk again soon. Thank you.