Building Brands Consumers Love

[00:00:00] Kelly: A lot of what we need from people is the willingness to go outside of their comfort zone and to fill gaps that may not necessarily always be in their job description, but because it's in the best interest of the team or the client, you know, we'll figure it out.

[00:00:11] Kelly: And we need that scrappiness. So, again, my best thing is just to get to know someone to understand why they would want to work with us. To understand what gaps they've had, why they are looking to make a move and make sure that we can fulfill that and show up on that other side. And like I said, paint the picture of the expectation, right?

[00:00:56] Kelly: Hey everyone, Kelly McGuire with Vujadate Digital.

[00:00:59] Todd: Hey everybody. This is Todd Kelly's partner in crime at Voucher Day. Today. We're going to talk about people and a whole lot of people that we've talked about or talk to, I should say in the last 30 days. And why is that? It's because we are hiring. And anytime we have to hire, it presents all sorts of new obstacles and challenges.

[00:01:22] Todd: Though you and I didn't face five years ago, or I guess I should say pre COVID when we could actually sit face to face with someone when we needed to hire them and the other people on the teams could sit face to face and you could actually meet a person. And now we have to do all of that practically through zoom, which makes it really, really difficult.

[00:01:41] Todd: So today I don't know if it's contrary to any opinion. Talk about some of the interesting things that have come to light in the people that we've talked to coming from, why they're leaving, what they're looking for interestingly enough, I'd say 50 percent of the candidates that I spoke to originally one of the first things they cited was I listened to your podcast which I never thought about anyone listening to us as a result of trying to think about, do they want to work in our company and for us?

[00:02:16] Todd: And so that set an interesting tone in a lot of the interviews because they had questions about things that we've talked about which are sometimes contrary to general opinion or popular opinion about how we describe what we do, the way we do it, maybe how we believe it's different than people The large majority of the rest of the industry sort of behaves or does work.

[00:02:37] Todd: So a lot of interesting things have come out of these conversations. I know there's some topics that I can talk about and some that you can talk about. I don't know that we have to talk about the podcast being a piece of this, but it is a piece of it. It is a validator that again, I was not expecting.

[00:02:53] Todd: So I guess I would tell other business owners that. Candidates are gonna go look at your LinkedIn profile. They might look to see if you've ever done anything in social media, what you're posting.

[00:03:05] Kelly: Well, good candidates will, hopefully.

[00:03:08] Todd: Well, that's why I said only about 50 percent did it, but I'm also surprised that, I mean, you would have to scroll to the bottom of our website and look at our footer to see that there's a podcast, which I guess the inquisitive, Good candidates, or I shouldn't say good because there's other candidates that might be listening to this, but the inquisitive ones are curious ones.

[00:03:27] Todd: Did find that we have a podcast. They did listen to certain shows. It did prompt them to ask us certain questions again about the business. A lot of it around the people and culture and how we do what we do. So, that's sort of the table setting for today's conversation. I'll just kick it over to you for you to Maybe pick up on any one of the various things that you heard through the interviews in the last month.

[00:03:51] Todd: We've talked to mid level candidates to incredibly senior level candidates and they've all had different things to say and different Sort of reasons why they're in the marketplace. What's jumped out to you?

[00:04:04] Kelly: Yeah, I mean, it's been a really interesting process that I've reflected heavily on. It just, as you said, the evolution of what it's been like to identify and interview and select candidates has been such a roller coaster over the last, you know, five to seven years, pre COVID and then during COVID and then post.

[00:04:24] Kelly: You know, first starting out with the in person element that I feel like we got really good at. You could get a very good sense and feel for people. And you know, I think that we were able to get a really good rhythm going when it came to interviewing when it was in person. And we had a really high hit rate when it, when it came to that.

[00:04:41] Kelly: Then COVID hit and there was the whole virtual element and then also the craziness of the job market and the expectations and, you know, the new realities that came with that and the adaptability that it took to navigate that time period. Certainly, trying to get a sense for someone in a virtual setting it was a lot different because again, I think a lot of times our hiring is, is much more based on the personality and the people and the motivators and, and kind of how we expect them to show up and operate it more so than the skill set.

[00:05:14] Kelly: Right? The skill set is sort of a, A base minimum qualifier. And so you can either do the job or you can't. And then from there, it becomes how you're going to show up and approach for what it is that we offer as a company in the market. And then coming out of that and the job market shifting again, and some of the difficulties in, in the industry and industries as a whole, and some of the talent pools and some of the pretty rough decisions that some big companies are making and, and, you know, looking at what I would say oftentimes can be people.

[00:05:43] Kelly: As. Line items on spreadsheets versus the human element to it. And, you know, in that short and long term value play that can happen business as a whole. And so that's presented opportunities. And so there's that's a lot of what's been very interesting for me to see. I think we've got some really good candidates.

[00:06:01] Kelly: I've been very impressed with the talent and the personality types, be it more than anything. And because I think that's. You know, that's another element that's very interesting when we give the interviews is, as we've said on this podcast before, and as we've talked about, you and I have very differing personalities and approaches to things and 1 of the things that has been funny to me over the years is.

[00:06:24] Kelly: I think the way that I show up in interviews has been pointed out is very different than I think what people experience for me in working once they're hired and working and I've been told that not that I can be scary and interviews, but I can, you know, I, I try and be very blunt in them both ways.

[00:06:45] Kelly: Because again, , I want to know about people's true personalities and motivators, not the curated answers, not. You know what they think I want to hear, like, I try and get to the root of things and present scenarios. They're not gotcha questions. They are genuinely meant to be, you know, communication style type questions.

[00:07:02] Kelly: But I also try and present the harsh reality of what the expectations are going to be and what it would be like if we were to make an offer and they were to accept it and work for us because. I think it's only fair to give candidates a true picture of what they would be agreeing to come into and what the expectations of them would be.

[00:07:20] Kelly: Because, you know, we've talked about, I don't want to spin my wheels and have someone take an offer and be like, oh, that's not what I thought, or that's not how it is, or us to be like, that's not a good fit. I'd rather someone be like, you know what? The way that they describe the expectations, what they want in the roles that they want out of that.

[00:07:34] Kelly: It's not a fit for me. And I think there's a filtering factor to that. So it's been a very interesting dynamic and overall. And I like getting back into the interviewing process. Minus the time requirement it asked for.

[00:07:47] Todd: So I think I thought of the contrary to popular opinion thing. And so this, this might be for the HR hiring managers, people in that space and field. So the thing that you talked about, and one of the things that is unanimously reported back to me from the recruiters that we work with. In terms of the commentary or the feedback that the recruits, the candidates give them about the interview that they had with us.

[00:08:14] Todd: And to, to your point, we don't really have a very traditional at all interviewing process might be to a fault dare I say, but Historically, like you said, it's worked very well for you and I in the room where we can detect body language and we can sort of just get to know a person over zoom.

[00:08:33] Todd: It's a little, we've not had as good of a track record, but it's still pretty good. and that just goes to the style of interviewing that you and I have again, we both say, look, we can read your resume on paper. that tells us you have the technical or tactical skills, presumably to do the job.

[00:08:50] Todd: And so we're not here to talk about that necessarily. Maybe some of our teams will dig into that, but you and I are really trying to get to know the person and identify does their chemistry and personality type and sort of drive and intuition match what we think inevitably has given us great people that we have working for us today.

[00:09:12] Todd: So the feedback. That I have gotten unanimously from almost every candidate that we've interviewed, and we've probably interviewed 10 or 15 people that have made it through one, two, or three rounds of interviews in the last several weeks is that they express, or the feedback they've given is that we treated them in a way that no other interviewer has treated them and that they felt like the conversation with you and I was more real.

[00:09:45] Todd: And more human than the interviews that they had with anybody else. And I, I think that's interesting. I don't know if it's good or bad. I there's probably pros and cons to it, but to your point, We don't talk to people and ask them the cookie cutter boilerplate interview questions. We talk to people and ask them really deep thought provoking questions about them as a person, how they think about things, how they process things, how they react to things.

[00:10:12] Todd: and there's probably canned questions that good hiring managers know how to ask that, that get that stuff out. But I thought it was interesting that You know, we're interviewing candidates that I know are interviewing with lots of other agencies very high profile, very well known agencies. And our recruiters continue to tell us the feedback they get from the candidates that they send to Vujadeh is very different than they get from the candidates that interview at other agencies.

[00:10:42] Todd: And I, I wonder if we're missing something or if we're onto something about just that pure interview style that you and I go through, yeah, are we missing something or are we onto something different?

[00:10:57] Kelly: So it's interesting. It's the first I've heard this feedback on it. And initial reaction is I like that. And It's because I think, and I'm going to speak for you a little bit when I say this, is, is we're looking for hopefully a different outcome built around the company that I think that we, we've tried to put out there and, and I think that this dovetails really nicely into the other component of this, which is one of the things that asking and learning about people's backgrounds and why they're looking to make a move and what they liked about their old situations and what they want in a new one.

[00:11:32] Kelly: is the importance and the value around, you know, work culture and, and what work means and, and the approach and the way that people are empowered or micromanaged or disempowered in, in different situations. And, you know, we've talked quite a bit about so much of what it is that we go to the market with, and that we promise our clients and that we try and bring the value around.

[00:11:57] Kelly: It relies not just on the skill set and the talent of the people that make up our team. It really requires the buy in and the passion and the motivation and the will to approach the work a little bit differently, or a lot of it differently, depending on how you want to look at it. In that there has to be this willingness to kind of show up and be creative and again, not just check the boxes and not just put in the hours and fill out the time sheet and, and kind of do the do, but really buy into the ownership and the autonomy and the, and the experience of, you know, I have a responsibility and this is my client and it matters.

[00:12:38] Kelly: And I want to go through these things. And. The only way that I think that that happens within a company is when people are valued at a human level versus a commodity level, right? I think we try really hard to give that experience of, you know, people are people and they have good days and they have bad days and they have strengths and they have weaknesses and.

[00:13:00] Kelly: Again, I don't necessarily believe that's the norm at least in my experience. It's a lot of conversations we have I know that that would go against what people say, but I think the reality turns out, you know differently quite a bit and I think that's what I try and get a sense for in these candidates is like, you know We don't in a perfect world for me.

[00:13:18] Kelly: I don't like change, right? We've talked about turnover and we don't have a lot of turnover and that means a lot to me I know you've had feedback where that may not necessarily be a good thing Or whatever the opinion is but for me I know the same thing that I say about our clients, which is I never want to give our clients any reason to think that they need to leave or could get better anywhere else.

[00:13:40] Kelly: I feel that same way about our employees. I want to create as much as possible the, the experience of this is the best place I can work with. Look, it's still work. If you're still good and bad to it, there's no getting around that. But I try to want to be mindful of can we be the best that we can be and show up and be care carrying in that side of things?

[00:13:58] Kelly: And if so, can we keep people for the long time and have them grow and have them, you know, get to know our clients and get bought into the overall and get that hopefully that reward on the outside. I know we have different structures that is meant to try and provide as much participation and upside is exist as well because.

[00:14:16] Kelly: Again, we only get to do what we do because they do what they do, and I think the acknowledgement and the appreciation of that's important. And so all of that is to say, the work culture side of things and the interview style that at least I deploy, and I think you do as well, is trying to get a sense of how someone's going to buy into that and fit into that and show up in that.

[00:14:34] Kelly: Because again, we don't just need someone that is capable of going into Google and setting up campaigns or going into meta and changing bids. We need someone that can think about a client's business and get creative and be curious as to why something is or isn't working, or could there be something better?

[00:14:50] Kelly: And that requires just a certain level of care that I think only happens if the company fosters a reason to go beyond. My paycheck and my hours and putting in the bare minimum, you know, that whole quiet quitting thing, not giving people a reason for that and getting a sense of if someone's ready for that experience.

[00:15:07] Kelly: And if they're going to do their part of it, if we do our part of it, that's the hardest thing to get right or wrong. And again, that's we're going back to sitting in a room across with someone face to face. I felt like it was a little bit easier for that. We're learning the virtual side of that. But that's a lot there, but there's so much more to that than what's your resume?

[00:15:25] Kelly: Can you do the job? What salary do you want? Okay, come in here and give me 40 hours a week.

[00:15:31] Todd: So I'm going to pick up on the second theme that I was going to bring up about. So the first theme was the feedback that the candidates we've interviewed gave to recruiters. Apparently our style of interviewing resonates maybe a little bit better than the more traditional way. Let's just call it that.

[00:15:47] Todd: The second part of this is, so you made the comment about how maybe it's the way that we harness people and empower people that allows them to, you know, they do, they, they can do all this great stuff. And I've always had this debate with you about like, well, there's gotta be lots of great people out there capable of doing a lot of great work.

[00:16:04] Todd: It can't just be us and a few people we have and things like that. And so why Why is that? And so the other theme that's come across, and I'd say again, almost all the candidates that we've spoken with, I'll be, they are looking for a job potentially. So I, I don't think they're all going to have glowing things to say about their current employer or else if they do.

[00:16:27] Todd: They, they wouldn't be looking, although a couple said they were perfectly happy, but they thought they could be even happier potentially under our rooftop and organizational way of doing things. But the, but the theme was that where they are at now, they do not have line of sight visibility. Or any other signals that they're making an impact.

[00:16:54] Todd: They don't know or don't feel like they can or are making an impact in what they're doing. They feel bottlenecked. They feel trapped. They feel like, you know, what they're doing is just a cog in the machine. Granted, a lot of these candidates, to our benefit are recent layoffs from a lot of the large agencies.

[00:17:20] Todd: There's been a lot of layoffs in the last six months. And so Were as an independent agency were a benefactor of that. The, the coins sort of flipped from two years ago but it's interesting that almost every single candidate I have talked to whether they've come from a big hold Co agency or a mid size indie agency or even a small agency They've all kind of said the same thing which is i'm just not doing anything that Flexes me that makes me feel like i'm making an impact that's rewarding to me You Not a lot of stuff about oh, I hate the team or the management or the company, but it's just more about like, I'm just not doing what I could or can or want to be doing.

[00:18:02] Todd: and largely that seems to be impacted by the business model of the agency. Again, almost unanimously, all the candidates have said that they think A large part of the reason why they cannot be fully utilized the way they think they should be is because the business model, the agency doesn't allow for it.

[00:18:20] Todd: They are tracking time. They are being held accountable to, you know, certain SOWs that they can't do more of. You know, one of the things we tell candidates is when you come into our company, you need to enter our company with the mindset that you're an entrepreneur in residence, that you are here to build something of value.

[00:18:39] Todd: And I, maybe that's one of the things that resonates. So it's interesting that, and again, I, I'm certain these people are interviewing because of those reasons, but if they're saying that. I wonder how many other people in those companies are feeling just the same. And this is probably not the ad agency business in general.

[00:18:56] Todd: I think this is probably systemic across the workplace of America, but it's, I find it fascinating.

[00:19:03] Kelly: Yeah. And it makes sense. I mean, look, I, experienced this early in my career, right? when you are a cog in a bigger machine and there's just a certain level of recognizability and, and opportunity and outcomes, you know, sometimes you feel like there's a reason to, to go above and beyond and go through it.

[00:19:19] Kelly: And sometimes you can find yourself being like, what's the point? Like, no, one's going to care. Like, it's not going to go anywhere. Like, all I'm going to do is line someone else's pockets that much more. And, And the first time, you know, we lose a client, I'll be on the chopping block.

[00:19:32] Kelly: Anyway, it's going to save me in any way. So. I'm not saying that's everything but you know it and again, I don't want to come across like like everything We do is perfect. Obviously, you know, we do the best we can in that sense but this is where again, I think it comes down to the the human element I try my best to remember and acknowledge like we are going to ask a lot of our people we are going to benefit from the the the effort and the sweat and the the the work of these people and And they're probably going to need to go above and beyond and there's going to be fire drills and there's going to be, you know, things that happen and I never want to take that for granted.

[00:20:08] Kelly: And I always want to create an environment where there's, you know, there's visibility to either the acknowledgement or the appreciation or potentially the financial reward to that. Because at the end of the day, it's a job. People are doing it for fun. Like, you know, people want want to be able to grow and have financial rewards.

[00:20:23] Kelly: And then also the cultural experience, right? . There's sort of that, idea of being in the foxhole with someone, right? The doing it for your, for your teammates and the people that are, that are doing things for you and showing up in that way and trying to really foster that environment.

[00:20:37] Kelly: And I, a lot of that, I try to make sure, and I think you and I are be, are as mindful of this as we can be. Is is doing that from the top in the leadership too, right? Like I try and make sure that. If I'm asking my team to work hard and put in extra hours to do things that I'm also doing that right that I'm showing up and not asking to do what I'm not doing.

[00:20:55] Kelly: And, you know, showing up alongside and that there's not this hierarchy of, well, that's not my role or that's below me and things like that. Like, I'll try and get into spreadsheets. I'll try and build those types of things. Like, you know, it's still interesting to flex those muscles sometimes. So, but again, all of this is to say, I think this is where the concept of work culture, and we work, we walk a very fine line with this right there.

[00:21:16] Kelly: The whole idea of like a company being like a family is considered like a big red flag. You're not supposed to say that anymore and do those things anymore. Like that's supposed to be like run for the hills if you hear that. But I I think you run for the hills if that's used in an exploitative way to try and get more out without compensation and recognition, right?

[00:21:32] Kelly: I think when we say it or where we say things like that, it's meant to be, we are all in this together and we are all trying to move towards a similar goal and we'll all show up and plug in and fill in gaps and things like that. Just really trying to understand how everyone's experience is because at the end of the day, we keep our clients and we keep our clients happy and we deliver the value we promise when we win clients.

[00:21:58] Kelly: Based on the level of buy in and passion that they have. So it's our job to stoke those flames, to empower that passion and desire for a reason. So that that premium experience that we're trying to build this company around shows up. And again, all of this circles back around to how do you find teammates, team members, employees, whatever you want to call them that are going to show up in that capacity.

[00:22:22] Kelly: Great. You can buy Facebook ads. Great. You know, the trade desk, great. You can do those things. Yeah. I need you to be able to do the work, but I need you to do it in a way that fits with the team and delivers the value and is done with the understanding of why you're doing that work. What does it mean to the client?

[00:22:41] Kelly: Is there anything we can be doing better? Are we exploring and pushing the envelope for the latest and greatest that requires someone with a certain level of buying and passion other than just you pay me for 40 hours? I did 40 hours. This is what I put through. And that's just, it's a very different commodity component when it talks about that, and this all comes down to human beings.

[00:23:01] Todd: Yeah, well, that's the way we've always talked about it. This is, this is the human game. And so that's the game we're trying to play and it has an implication on business. Another interesting theme that came out of the interviews was I talk a lot about our brand promise.

[00:23:17] Todd: because I like brand and I like the things that brands stand for and what they mean. And so I do talk about the fact that Vujadeh means something. There's a book written about the Vujadeh moment. That is the brand promise that we have to uphold. And a lot of the candidates again, cited to me, they'd never heard in their other interviews that the agency people talk about the brand, their agency brand.

[00:23:40] Todd: They don't talk about that. And I find that super fascinating because again, I think you should. Care a lot about the company that you're working for you're considering to work for and what does that company stand for other than just, you know, maybe they won some big agency award or something or, or whatever.

[00:23:57] Todd: So I thought that was interesting. When it comes to interviewing. Is there something that's either a red flag or a green flag for you that jumps out?

[00:24:05] Kelly: Yeah, I mean, for me, it's it's again, am I getting canned responses? Am I getting the sense that someone's telling me what I want to hear? Or am I getting genuine reflections about experiences? Is someone able to really tell me what it is that they're looking for? Can they paint the picture of a place that they would want to work and stay in and would be willing to go above and beyond?

[00:24:31] Kelly: Are they able to articulate a The things that that they feel they do well in the areas that they want to grow have they done research on the company do do they care enough to kind of go through? Where again, they're not giving cookie cutter answers and rinse and repeat, right?

[00:24:47] Kelly: You know, I I do my best to just get a sense of the the motivating factors Like are we able to give an environment to someone that's going to fulfill their needs? I mean part of our process and part of my questioning is You You know, what is it that you want? Cause there's things that wouldn't fit for us, right?

[00:25:02] Kelly: If someone's looking to work on, you know, Starbucks and Red Bull level campaigns with massive amounts of creativity and fun behind it, like we don't get a lot of shots at that, right? That's probably not what we're going to bring to the table, right? If someone's looking to work, if they're used to working in, you know, 50 person teams with every resource under the sun at their disposal that they can turn to.

[00:25:22] Kelly: Not, not always going to be what we have like that. That may not be a match to the skillset, right? A lot of what we need from people is the willingness to go outside of their comfort zone and to fill gaps that may not necessarily always be in their job description, but because it's in the best interest of the team or the client, you know, we'll figure it out.

[00:25:38] Kelly: And we need that scrappiness. So, again, my best thing is just to get to know someone to understand why they would want to work with us. To understand what gaps they've had, why they are looking to make a move and make sure that we can fulfill that and show up on that other side. And like I said, paint the picture of the expectation, right?

[00:25:57] Kelly: Again, I don't want to pretend like we're this perfect place. There are challenges that come with working for us, right? Like any service industry, there is going to be. You know, challenging client experiences. There's going to be deadlines that go late. We try and manage those. I would say better than anything I've ever experienced because I, you know, I'm aware of it, but it still happens.

[00:26:15] Kelly: There's no avoiding it. So, you know, are people ready to kind of accept some of that? And what those expectations are? Yeah, that's what I try my best to get a sense for us is what what someone bring to the table with us.

[00:26:27] Todd: i'm gonna wrap this conversation up, with the thought that it's good to think about humans as humans. I guess we're not probably great business people as a result, but we still have a good company and it works and it's profitable.

[00:26:39] Todd: We just made ad weeks, 75 top fastest growing agencies globally. So I guess we're doing something right. But let's. Let's keep trying to find good people. It's not easy to find good people. But we talked to a lot of great people in the last few weeks. And so I'm excited by adding to our team, some growth and seeing if our, maybe non conformative or non normal way of interviewing and bringing people on actually continues to work for long haul.

[00:27:06] Todd: So, thanks for all your feedback. Interviewing time with people, even though they say you're scarier than me, which is funny because it's the opposite once we're working.

[00:27:14] Kelly: I'm happy to look. I, you know, my big wrap up is, you know, I've been very impressed with. The people we've had a chance to interview, honestly, one of my biggest struggles right now is that, you know, we're not in a place to grow as much as I'd like to, because we, there's multiple candidates that I'd probably want to bring in and deploy on the behalf of clients that I think would really benefit from it in those mechanisms, but we're going to have to continue to use that fastest growing agency role and push those boundaries even further.

[00:27:42] Kelly: And hopefully we can continue to be sort of a destination for some of this. Thanks. You know, untapped talent that we can give an environment to continue to deliver that premium experience that I think a lot of clients, you know, probably deserve and and hopefully we'll, we'll break out of that sort of hamster wheel of the same experience and get their moment and and and have a chance to kind of see what a human driven versus commodity or blueprint driven.

[00:28:09] Kelly: Think and can really bring to the table from an experience and ultimately a result standpoint.

[00:28:14] Todd: Yep. Well, onward and upward. Thanks for talking about HR and recruiting and hiring. It's it's a complicated subject and a complicated.

[00:28:22] Kelly: It's your world, right? I don't get to dive into that all the time. And so we get to, we get to talk about all the fun that you spend doing all that stuff.

[00:28:27] Todd: you don't, but you're, it's great to watch you interview people and how you extract things out of the conversation differently than I do. And maybe that's what gives us a really balanced overview of, of people as people and not just as workforce sort of labor which I'm glad we don't look at it that way.

[00:28:45] Todd: All right, well, thanks. We'll wrap it up and I will talk to you next week.

[00:28:50] Kelly: Thanks, everybody.