Why Men Need Brotherhood (Not Just Self-Help) with Marc Azoulay

Marc [00:00:00] Meaning is your responsibilities right? Your commitments to your children your commitments to your community to your church to your job to your partner right, to your health to your fitness like your commitments, your responsibilities

Marc That's what gives life meaning

Hector Fellas, what's going on? I hope this episode finds you well, and I hope this episode leaves you better than when it found you. Today's episode is with Mark Ale and he is the founder of Men's Therapy Online. And someone who I'm excited to bring to our community here because he is someone who is so.

Hector Invested and interested in just that. And that's the power of community for men and, and how valuable that can be. And we talk about, therapy, we talk about, you know, men's work. We talk about, all the things that, I think are important for a guy sort of navigating today's world and, and really, navigating it in a way that, they feel like they don't have the tools. I know that so much of it, for me has been like, I, I don't know what to do. And so having other men around who can sort of provide that guidance and support is so huge. And, and Mark has really created [00:01:00] an organization that does just that.

Hector And so, it's a great convo. I know you're gonna love it. So, enough of me, y'all. Let's get into today's episode with Mark Azule. Mark, welcome to the Modern Masculinity Pod, and it's great to have you.

Marc Happy to be here. Yeah. I love doing these shows.

Hector Take me into your world. I ask the every guest to sort of take us into the world, and I'm gonna ask for you to not share, your accolades and your achievements and, and things like that.

Hector 'cause we'll, we'll maybe find some time to do that. But what sort of things are you still working through as a man, as a business owner, maybe a partner or father, or whatever sort of roles or responsibilities you have as a man. what sort of things do you still find yourself working through today?

Marc Oh, dude, tons. I mean, so my, my cardinal sin is impatience. And like, I think that has benefited me as entrepreneur, right? And a business owner because I get shit done. Like I don't procrastinate, but I immediately feel behind all the time. You know, if I have an idea, I'm like, oh, I need to like launch this new group or hire, you know, three other clinicians or whatever.

Marc I am like immediately thrown this [00:02:00] anxious, almost shame place of like, why haven't you done it yet? Fucking pussy. Like do it. You know, like that kind of, I don't, I don't like toxic masculinity. I don't like that word. I think classical masculinity that kind of like don't be a bitch mentality. It's still alive and well at me.

Hector I think there's a place for it too, you know, so I wanna give you some grace and be like, you know, I have to like, pull that out of me sometimes because I think I swung so hard the other way where now it's like, I sort of miss my high school football coaches and like, you know, you don't, it's, it's not always,

Hector Enjoyable in the moment. and it can't be the only way to do it.

Hector but I wanna give you some grace and be like, you know, I think that it, it's probably a big reason why you've, you know, had the success or whatever, you know, that you've, you've created in your life is, but I, I get that too.

Marc Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I think I've learned to harness it. I'd rather have this problem than the other side, right. Than procrastination, which I did a lot. I mean, I was like a weed smoker for like, you know, 15, 20 years and didn't do shit. but where I was going with that is I actually, recently have had a [00:03:00] daughter, of like, literally three weeks ago.

Marc So I'm noticing that type of mentality creep up and babies don't respond well to impatience, you know, so, so the kind of. Challenge that I'm on the crest of is learning how to be in, baby time, in a way, you know, and just, being present, right? With no expectations, no nothing, no outcomes, right?

Marc Like, just being there, which is not natural for me. I tend to be kind of like, higher energy person.

Hector That's interesting that you bring that up because I remember, you know, before I had kids, I was very of that like, you know, always on mindset and it, it actually was having my first, you know, having my son where it was. There was nothing to do necessarily. It was just about being and that was a big shift for me. and I said I swung hard the other way because. You know, I went so far into that, that side that, you know, creating some urgency and creating some, you know, movement and that sort of thing was just, it was an interesting experience sort of on this pendulum of being always [00:04:00] on and then having to sort of, you know, go into sort of caretaker nurture mode and then having to switch back into provider executor, entrepreneur mode.

Hector It's this interesting dance that I feel like I've gotten better at, but is, definitely not natural for sure.

Marc Yeah. What helped you with that? 'cause again, I'm in like, literally week three, you get me in like a pretty weird time and I've, I'm finding, I'm having to like claw out whatever time be productive as possible and I'm, you know, it is a hard shift.

Marc So, yeah. Any input I'd be curious to hear?

Hector I always heard like the sleep when they sleep thing and I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. but like for me, learning how to manage my energy. with a new set of circumstances took way too long. and frankly it took my family and my marriage falling apart.

Hector Like all of that, when I look back at it was really stemming from, from energy management or it was like, you know, I'd be on burnout, depression, useless, you know, like that sort of, cycle like over and over and over again. And while, my kids were young, My ex had a, a number of [00:05:00] challenging pregnancies.

Hector you know, my daughter spent, I think a month and a half in the nicu. And, and it was just more than an ordeal, but it was, it really forced me into routines and rhythms that I had never been around. And so that's been even for me now, it's like, okay, things like, I realize that I wake up much.

Hector Less energetic if I didn't take creatine the day before, you know? Mm-hmm. And it's like small things like this where I've just gotta figure out how to navigate it, and now I'm, you know. I'm, I'm not, well, I am a single parent. their mom is still sort of involved on, on holidays and, you know, school breaks and stuff like that.

Hector But other than that, you know, I'm, I'm full-time always on, and that is just, it's just new, you know, and it is new for me as a person, but also I don't know that, like genetically I'm, you know, predisposed to a lot of those skills either. and so that's just been a, yeah. we're getting through it, but it's been, it has been a bumpy, bumpy ride for sure.

Marc That's a big shift. Yeah. I noticed that [00:06:00] with my wife immediately. Like those genetic roles of like, she can just sit and stare at our baby forever, right? Like her level of patience and presence and like fascination is way different I don't, I don't think I'm capable of that. I don't know if many men are capable of, of that level of like just attending, you know?

Hector Yeah. I think, another part of it, you know, was like the. There was like a, weird thing of, You're not good at it. No one sees you as good at this and you also have to do it. So there's all this like worth, you know, conversation going on. Am I, doing this right? Am I, you know, dealing with all of that?

Hector I think there are some, some realities to men are better at these things and women are better at these things. Not that men can't do these other things. but the dispositions, I, if we don't account for that, I think we're. trying to ignore reality or ignore, ignore circumstances, that I think hold both men and women back.

Marc Oh, for sure. Yeah. I, I'm what to talk about, but I think, I think men and women are different, which is a weirdly taboo thing to say in, you know, 2026 when we're [00:07:00] recording this thing. But I think they are, and I think like, yeah, we just have to compliment each other's strains, right? We're different, but we're equal.

Marc the issue has been, we're different, but men are better. I don't believe that. Right. I think we're just different but equal. And I hope that our culture can get to a place where we can acknowledge that there are, you know, biological differences. There are neurological differences, right?

Marc there are conditioning differences. That means we're gonna see and perceive the world in very different ways. And it's about understanding each other, right? And being able to communicate and, and consent and, and, be open about these things so we can actually be harmonious. We can actually like cohabitate and create things, create families that last.

Hector the better part I think is sort of the challenge that we run into. I was, yeah, before we hopped on, I caught myself scrolling but one of the videos that sort of came up was, Jennifer Lopez talking. She was going on a rant, and I don't rem i, I couldn't tell from the video what year this was.

Hector 'cause she seems to be like locked at in a, you know, at a. Certain age and doesn't seem to age time very much. Yeah. which is maybe what women do better than, you know, in other than men in some instances. but what she was saying was that women do so much more [00:08:00] women do you know? They they do so much.

Hector Like that was the point of her thing was that they do more and, she looked at a guy in the crowd and she was like, why are you looking at me like that? And she's like, men do a lot too, but women do more. And I'm like, that's. That is the, the disconnect, right? Yeah. If we can't have reverence for the other person, right.

Hector If we can't, you know, understand it and see them for all of their gifts, then it's like, and all that they do provide, it sort of holds, it holds everything back.

Marc A hundred percent. Yeah. I think as men we need to respect like, okay, we're doing traditional gender roles here just for simplicity. Right? But I think as men, we gotta respect like the domestic role, right?

Marc Like someone that like wakes up and cooks food every single day. That's a lot of work, right? That's a job, right? But I think what women don't see, and I think what a lot of men hide is like so much of what we do is preventative. You know, it's almost like a vaccine. You know? We're there working to make sure we don't go hungry.

Marc We're there in setting up investment accounts and education [00:09:00] accounts and you know, making sure the insurance information is accurate and all the bullshit that we do to make sure that when tragedy strikes that we're prepared. Right. We're getting all this education, we're buying all the tools and the gear, which I think women can sometimes like be flippant about, but we're doing it because when ship breaks, we need to be the one that steps up and handles the situation.

Marc But a lot of our stuff is invisible because if we do it well, tragedy doesn't strike us it works. It's, a vaccine. It's effective, but we don't get that kind of congratulations of like, oh, thank God, you know, my. Car tires didn't explode. And it's like, yeah. 'cause I replaced them, you know, six months ago when we need them to be replaced.

Marc that's kind of, I think our divis work that men do. It's all this kind of preventative. I usually a lot of like, kind of mythological union language in my work. It's like boundary keeping, right? It's like the guard on the wall protecting the village from getting destroyed by the barbarians.

Marc Right? No one really congratulates the guard. They're just like, they're just still alive. Right? Because the barbarians never hit. But that guy is working every single day to make [00:10:00] sure those barbarians don't destroy your family and destroy your life.

Hector Yeah, I, and I think to kinda sort of connect it to a little bit more of your work, the challenge is, is that yes, men need to do that.

Hector And then there is also a, another side of, you know, what I've sort of called integrated masculinity, which is mm-hmm. You know, has a lot more of the traditional masculine, you know, strong, firm provider, like that sort of thing. But then I remember early on in the show, people. When I was interviewing, they would say, well, there are these things like compassion and patience and you know, that they were associating them traditionally with like feminine as feminine qualities.

Hector And I'm like, I don't know that those are, like, those are feminine qualities. It's just a different side to the same coin and, and you know, what you do and sort of helping men to sort of, you know, find some of these answers and solutions. Like so much of it is being able to go inside. Figure out not fix, 'cause that's not the right word, but it's to, to navigate that [00:11:00] internal world, is something that I think hasn't been emphasized enough as part of the masculine role.

Hector Because yes, we do need to take care of the external and also if we don't go in and, take care of our internal, it's impossible to do, you know, to do the other.

Marc A hundred percent. Yeah. And I think that's the pitch to the guys, right? It's like if you don't handle these inner demons, you know, if you look at our website, it has a big old demon on the front.

Marc We're trying to be very, you know, like, yeah, I can do this. It's, courageous, right? but yeah, if you don't deal with those demons, they're gonna come back and bite you in the ass, right? You cannot avoid them. Whether that's, you know, a breakdown, whether that's an addiction for a lot of men, whether that's numbing out or even just like something as existential as like never living a, a complete life.

Marc You never fully learned how to connect with somebody, right? You never fully learned how to love, or you never learned how to appreciate the little things. So the, the stakes are really high and we're not stronger than them. You know, we have to, like you said, we have to navigate the inner world. We have to map it out.

Marc We have to heal it. We have to [00:12:00] understand how we became who we are so that we can then have mastery of the external, right? That we can really take over the rudder and let our, and direct our lives to be the best man we can be. And I think that's, the call of the modern man right now.

Hector Yeah. For me, I hit this wall and I, it was big into personal development and you know, I remember one year I read 50 books and it was like, it was all about, you know, learning and growing and all that sort of stuff. And hit this wall in terms of my success and relationship and all this sort of, and I kept trying to add more on, read more books, learn new skills, and I don't actually, I don't remember what sort of woke me up to the fact that it was like.

Hector Dude, you have so much shit that you have to go in and just deal with on your, like in yourself. And, that hasn't been dealt with. That is preventing, that is causing you to procrastinate, that is causing all the self-worth issues. That is cau like all of these external issues that are coming up are because you refuse to look inside and actually deal with what is actually there, you know?

Hector And, I'm excited that it's becoming more. that, you know, healing for men is more normalized. And I [00:13:00] don't know that we're going at a, quick enough pace to sort of get us out of the, you know, like if we're gonna move into a better world, I, think that men are gonna be the ones that lead us into that place.

Hector or at least, you know, play a large role in that. And I, I am nervously optimistic that we can pull it off.

Marc Yeah, I mean, there's a lot I can say on that. I, I agree with you. I, I think, you know, I dunno if you've read, have you read like the Robert Bly stuff, like Iron John, that's like kind of a classic men's work?

Hector No, I've not, I've not read that one. No. I'll have

Hector to add, check it out

Marc out. But one thing he talks about in that is like, there's this phase in masculinity called the Ashes, where you're just like kind of burnt and you're like smoldering and you're just like, you know, next to this fire and you're just in this like place of shame and, and inward looking and you're very, very weak.

Marc Right. And I think that's where a lot of men are. And that's critical for growth, right? If you think the Phoenix metaphor, right? You gotta burn all the way down before you can be reborn. And I think there's those bully men out there, right? Those more traditional masculine or toxic masculine dudes that are still in many ways, like winning, [00:14:00] right?

Marc And speaking to younger boys and the ones of us that are healing, I think as a, as a group, we're still in that ashes phase where we're healing, but we're not yet powerful enough. You know? And I'm, I'm hopeful. In the next 20 years. I think Gen Z is awesome. I think the millennials we're doing some good work too, but I think like in the next 20 years, maybe we can arise from that and actually challenge, like directly challenge these dudes, you know?

Marc And, and when we talk about, you know, the topic I was chatting about, health therapy fails men. It's like, I think a lot of men that go this work, they get feminized. Whereas what we need is to have more stronger men. And not stronger in the terms of being a bully, or how much can you bench or how much can you squat?

Marc Although health is important, it's about like being an ethical man, right? Being a truly ethical man that's able to sacrifice for the greater good and has the power to stand out for those that need it the most. Right? Like, I think we've lost that. we've lost that ability to, pick up the sword for, for good, not just for personal gain.

Hector Yeah. One of [00:15:00] my favorite sort of, Tropes maybe, and that's not the right word, but ideas is that, you know, I'd rather be a, a warrior in the garden than a, a gardener in war. And it's that idea of, you know, the meek shall inherit the earth. And I, I remember growing up, you know, I went to Catholic school and I've talked a lot about my, you know, my 16 years of Catholic school experience on this show.

Hector But I remember just coming away going, that's interesting. 'cause my interpretation of Meek was like, wimpy. I was like, oh, okay. that's a weird thing, but, also that, that misconception was not corrected. It was actually like kind of perpetuated by. The structures at be, because that sort of makes sense.

Hector Like you want kids to stay in line, you want, there was sort of this compliance thing that, was very much a part of it. And as I sort of grew and, came into my own and, and learned that no Meek is not like wimpy. Meek means like someone who is strong you know, has the ability to discern when to pick up the sword and when to not. Yeah. [00:16:00] And it was like, oh, I don't even, even if like, you know, years ago it was like, even if I wanted to defend myself or even if I wanted to be, you know, this warrior, like, I haven't even developed that in myself.

Hector I've, I've ignored and avoided that so much. And part of it is because, you know, growing up in the nineties. and I grew up in, in LA where it was an interesting sort of, just environment, but. Violence was, detested, you know, it was like if you got into one fight in school, you were gonna be a loser and you're gonna spend the rest of your life in jail.

Hector And so it was like, alright, let me learn how to be conflict averse. Let me, how to let me pacify everything at the expense of my own boundaries and the expense of my own worth and the expense of know everything because I'm so scared of, conflict Violence and it's not, you know, war and all that. Like, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying we have to be like these authoritarians. What I am saying is that if a guy is not confident in his ability to defend himself or to stand his ground or to, own his space or in whatever sort of capacity that is, like, that [00:17:00] creates some huge downstream effects that prevent that guy from doing blank, right?

Hector Being fulfilled, being happy. Like it, spills out in so many different areas that I didn't realize and you know, it took me till I was, you know. 30 to sort of realize and wake up to that when I go like, oh, if someone needs to protect my family, like it's gonna be me. Like I said, you know, like I'm, I'm, I am now the protector and I'm, I'm grateful that I have that awakening, but I, I think that not enough guys sort of see that distinction or they, they sort of have that misconception of what Meek means.

Marc Yeah, and we were talking about it, it was similar for my story too. I think a lot of millennial men Right, was born in the nineties. Like, this is our story and I'll go through it quickly, right? I mean, you, you have the toxic masculine generation, right? The boomers where they looked at women, right? And they said, I'm not that right.

Marc Like, I don't know what I am, but I'm not that. And that's very fragile, right? Because it's, it's not a internally motivated sense of identity. It's like an anti identity. Saying, I'm not gonna be weak. I'm not gonna cry. I am not gonna be emotional. Right. All the stuff that, I'm sure you talked about [00:18:00] ad nauseum on the show.

Marc Right. But then our generation, we looked at the men and we said, I don't know what I am, but I'm not that right. And especially for our generation, we're the generation of divorce. I don't know if you're. Raised in divorced family or not, but many of us were. So, a lot of us were raised by single mothers that were, you know, demonizing the, the father, right.

Marc That left, or that whatever the conflict was. So we looked at them and we're like, I'm not that. I'm not gonna be domineering, I'm not gonna be aggressive. I'm not going to be greedy. I'm not going to be selfish. Right. All of these things that we were taught. And then we got this generation of dudes who we are actually really emotionally intelligent and we actually get along pretty well with women and we can talk about our feelings, but we're, we're nice guys.

Marc Right? Another great book, Dr. Robert Glover. No More Mr. Nice Guy, right? We we're nice guys. we have this thing where our generation needs to kind of. learn from the traditional masculine, right? We need to seek challenge because our, our life is pretty easy.

Marc For us, our nineties was a golden age for America, right? Like money was great, everyone was safe. Like it was a wonderful time, especially to be like a white man, right? So like, [00:19:00] it's like that level was incredible. We were born in with such luxury, that we need to bring in challenge. And I think for a lot of guys it starts with physicality,

Hector right?

Marc Working out, getting healthy, getting your diet, exercise under control. It's a very classical way to do it, and then it becomes an emotional challenge that you and I are talking about now. But I, I think as men, we need to bring that in or else we do become this kind of like. Too soft, too newly, too wiggly version, right?

Marc That's what I was saying before that kind of overly feminized version. We need to figure out what it means to be men without being assholes. Right? Like without dominating. Right. Being that benevolent king. Right. Being you. the person that cares about their family can protect their family that is setting up all these things, you know, that I talked about.

Marc Those, vaccine things that are preventing tragedy from striking, but still keeping our sensitivity in our and our open heart. I think that's the challenge of a millennial man. but I think many of us have collapsed. I think many of us have become this kind of like forever child in a way.[00:20:00]

Marc Whether still, you know, drinking, drugging, gaming, right? There's a lot of millennials that don't quite grow up, we don't become those adults. We're still living in nostalgia. because we need that fire. I think we need a little sharpness in, in our lives as a generation.

Hector Yeah. And perhaps it's not a coincidence that, a lot of the millennial generation also.

Hector I would imagine, I don't, I don't know the exact statistics, but I would imagine that compared to previous generations at this, you know, age not as many of 'em have kids, you know, and when I think about the thing that really.

Hector woke me up and I don't wanna say like, turned me into a man, 'cause that's a weird thing to say, but sort of forced me to, to reckon with these ideas was having a kid, you know, as having, you know, being responsible for, a helpless individual, you know, like someone who's just totally helpless.

Hector And to be, and you know, to look at myself and be like, there's no one else like you are responsible now. And so, I think that a lot of guys are missing those. Those events. And, and we've talked a little bit about on the show, the, the lack of, coming of age, I forget the word, the [00:21:00] words escaping me, but, you know, these events like

Marc initiation Yeah,

Hector yeah.

Hector These initiation events that, that help, you know, if, not even just symbolically, but help, a young man, a boy to see the value in. Becoming a man because I think that that's what I didn't see, you know, as a young kid watching, you know, Homer Simpson and, and Tim, the tool man, Taylor, and you know, Ray Romano and I've saw, you know, according to Jim, and it was like every single, you know, media, you know, entity had this, this hot wife with this wimpy dude.

Hector And I was like, mm-hmm. Alright. That's the key. That's the way to be a pushover, to be this Mr. Nice guy. Like, alright, I'll force myself into that box. And it worked until it didn't, you know?

Marc Yeah, a hundred percent right. And initiation. Look, I mean, I think American culture sucks in this way, is, I think it's great in many ways, but in this way because we don't have one.

Marc And like a, as someone who used to run retreats Right. And do initiation retreats. It's like always rites of passage

Hector is the

Marc [00:22:00] word of that. I

Hector was looking for passage. Yes.

Marc Yeah. It's always like a little fake. It's always a little fake because we don't have that long history of many other cultures. Right. I know South American cultures do it phenomenally.

Marc Right. Many Asian cultures do it. I mean, I'm, I'm Jewish. We have the bar mitzvah, but even that has been really watered down. I, I didn't feel initiated. Right. I felt like it was an obligation. Right, so it's always a little fake, but the real one, and you're talking about this, the real undeniable one is having a child because when there's another kid in the room.

Marc Right. you're not a kid anymore. you can't ignore that. You can't lie your way outta that. Right. You are an adult period when you have a child because there's another child there. and I think a lot of our generation still holds on to being children. And I think for our generation, really, I mean maybe Gen XA little bit, but for our generation it was the first generation.

Marc It was even like, okay, to not have kids, like you're saying. In fact, it's even like kinda a little cool to not have a kid. Every generation, literally it was like you failed at life if you didn't have a kid. Right? [00:23:00] There was something wrong with you if you were not a parent. So it's a massive cultural shift that is not really talked about that much, right?

Marc That like we actually get to choose. But I think choosing has some pretty wild knock on effects. You know, I don't know about you, but I have a number of friends that are in their forties, fifties, chose not to have children. And to me, and I'm biased 'cause I, you know, I have a kid, but they seem kind of empty.

Marc they seem like they're missing something. I, I think they're, and they talk about it like, I think they're paying that price a little bit now where they're not having that kind of classic human or even just mammal existence, right. Of raising young. I think it's something deeply primal

Hector it's sort of trendy to kind of brag about, you know, not having kids these days. There was a, a recent video that went viral of, you know, some. She's not a girl. And, and she's younger too, you know, younger than being called like a woman. But you know, this young, young woman who is dancing in her, her bikini because she has a, you know, she doesn't have kids and she's able to sleep in and, you know, all the things.

Hector And it's like, I think for [00:24:00] me, I have these moments where I'm so grateful that I. I was bestowed this, like, it, it wasn't planned. We didn't plan to have kids. It was sort of a, you know, here it is, you're, we deal with it sort of thing. Mm-hmm. And I'm so grateful that the moments that, you know, whenever I'm in a meditation or whenever someone says, what are you grateful for?

Hector Like, the answer is so easy. It's so easy to find gratitude amidst. So much challenge and so much strife and so much whatever. You know, my, I just think about my daughter and, she still jumps into my arm. She's six and it's like nothing can, can compare to those, moments and those feelings.

Hector and I think that, I'd imagine that a lot of guys are sort of. Hoodwinked into seeing these luxuries or the travel or the, you know, lack of quote unquote responsibility or whatever it is, thinking that, like, that's actually a greater, you know, the grass is greener over there. And I, I, I don't know if it's an intentional eye that's being sold to people, but it's just something that, that I think is [00:25:00] really damaging.

Hector you know, guys, real happiness.

Marc Yes. I, I mean, Marcus Aurelius was freaking talking about this, right? In the Roman Empire, right? He talks about the danger of hedonism, right? Of just pleasure seeking. And I think that our generation has fallen for that hook, line and sinker, right? I mean, I know conspiratorial you want to get, but of course you can monetize hedonism a lot more.

Marc But what I think what differentiates a boy from a man is that a man doesn't see responsibility as a bad thing. Right, like taking on responsibility, just like you said, man, like that is what meaning is. Meaning is your responsibilities, right? Your commitments to your children, your commitments to your community, you know, to your church, to your job, to your partner, right, to your health, to your fitness, like your commitments, your responsibilities.

Marc That's what gives life meaning, right? If you're trying to not have any responsibility, you end up. Feeling pretty meaningless because it is right. You, you've pushed away anything from really touching you right. From actually mattering to you to really you [00:26:00] learning how to sacrifice for a child, right. Or learning how to do the hard thing, because like you said, man, like no one else is gonna do it, right?

Marc You, you're the man, you're the dad, right? You gotta do it. Right. And, and I think so much of our, generation, the men out there, it's like we've felt responsibility is a bad word, whereas like. Just like you said, you should be grateful to take on responsibility, right? That means that you're being trusted, right?

Marc When someone asks you to help them, that's a gift, right? That's not a burden, that's a gift. That means that someone trusts you to be confident enough to show up and help them when they need it the most. Like that's the kind of ethics and morals that I think we're lacking, and it, it's so simple, but it, feels so foreign.

Marc To a lot of the guys that I end up working with and they, you know, and they talk with me and we end up getting there. But it's wild how many guys are avoidant of responsibility or, fear of commitment. You hear that a lot, right? And it's like, dude, you should be seeking out commitments. That's how you're gonna feel like you matter.

Marc So you're gonna feel connected to the world if you're committed to stuff,

Hector Yeah. Well I think so many guys are just afraid of their inner world, you know? It's [00:27:00] such a scary place. for guys, mostly and I'm, I'm only speaking for my sample size of one and, and you know, of the people that you know of my friends and, and sort of acquaintances that, that I've talked about it, but it's, it, a lot of it is just from a lack of familiarity.

Hector Like we're just, we, we start venturing into that when we're 20 and 30 or, or however you know, well into our adult life that we're so much more. Capable at doing these other external things that all of a sudden we start to look internally. And I think it's a real gut check because it sort of highlights the lack of skills, right. The, it highlights like how much work we really have to do. And it's kind of like, I think about it, like that room, that is like, ends up becoming like, like some people have a junk drawer, some people have like a junk room where they just like throw stuff and they close the door and it's like, I'll get to it one day.

Hector And the more that you throw in there. Scarier it gets to, you know, finally go in and, and sort of clean everything out. I think a lot of guys are, doing that with their inner world. And the unfortunate side is it seems like the longer that you wait, the harder that the obstacle becomes.

Marc [00:28:00] Right. Yeah. I, I think it's harder that it, only thing I would say is I think it just appears harder, which is real, right? Like, again, it's harder to open the door because you're like, there's so much stuff there. But I've found that once you actually can approach it, build up the courage, and I think shows like this are helpful.

Marc You we run men's groups, I think men's groups, every men's be a men's group. You need to do with other dudes talking about this shit. However you can, whether you pay for it or it's just your buddies. But like, once you touch those things, they often fall apart pretty quickly. It just takes a lot of courage to actually approach it and look at some of those things you've suppressed.

Marc Maybe it's every regret you have better relationship. Maybe it's a shitty part about your relationship with your parents. Maybe it's trauma or abuse, right? But if you can touch it and speak to listeners now, like if you can touch it and you can actually feel it, and you can let yourself get that good cry or let yourself really engage with reality, again, it's a masculine thing to just like be committed to the truth and it's a very prime masculine.

Marc value. Like this stuff does fade away. It's not, undoable, right? Like it's not impossible to deal with this [00:29:00] stuff, but it does take that initial courage and it takes the, it takes humility, but being able to be like, man, I don't know how to do this. I need some help. You know? which again, I think is pretty masculine.

Marc 'cause you're getting help from other dudes and one day you can actually help another guy too, right? You just kind of, give and take.

Hector Yeah. It's the, it's the humility part, right? And, um, that I think is, is so important. 'cause it's, yeah, we are, not skilled at it. We, we haven't been given the tools to be able to navigate these things.

Hector and also I think that no matter when a guy is listening to this. If they are later in their life, I think you bring up a good point that they do have some skills. They do have some things to lean on, a little bit more awareness. And so no matter at what stage or what age someone's sort of, you know, confronting this, I think the, like the best time to get started or the best time to start looking into these things is like, now you mentioned, men's groups and what I'm curious about is like.

Hector For guys, I think that they are, I dunno if disenfranchised is the right [00:30:00] word, but they're not clear on what the options are. They don't know what the menu is, and then they hear therapy and they're like, ah, that's for, you know, sissies, or that's for whatever insert thing, you know, blank.

Hector And you know, some people go men's groups, they're like, what? You know, it sounds. I think it just sounds foreign, right? That the guys don't know what sort of things are out there. and maybe it is that you guys offer these tools, but what sort of things do you think guys should be doing, accessing, utilizing, to help, with some of these challenges?

Marc So, I mean, we run them. there's also gray orange stage called the Mankind Project. I'm sure you've heard about, that's like, it's like aa, there's men's groups everywhere. So if you want something local in person, check them out. They're often free, you know, ours are run by therapists, so we're gonna charge you for 'em.

Marc But that being said, I, I think men. Work in compartments, right? And again, that's been demonized. That meant compartmentalize, but that's our brain. Like we put things in boxes, right? So the way I kind of sell it to dudes is like, this is your emotional box, right? this is where you go for, you know, from our organization, it's 90 minutes every week, right?

Marc It's online, [00:31:00] over zoom, six dudes in a therapist. And you just try to be as honest as possible. and I use that, those words specifically, right? Because I think just to your point, when people think about therapy groups, they think it's like a pity party, right? They think they're gonna like just cry and complain, or they think they're gonna be in there with like crazy people and drug addicts, right?

Marc They think it's like, or you know, but it's not that we work with the high performing dudes. Like you get there and you try to be as honest as possible, whether that's about your pain and sadness. Sure, that's part of it. But also about your wins. what really matters to you. Right about your past, about what you really think about stuff, and I think it's critical that it's only men because our emotions, especially when you're new to this, are pretty brutal, right?

Marc I mean, we can say some crazy shit, right? There's times where I feel like I want to kill somebody, right? Or there's a part of male aggression and male sexuality that's like very domineering. You know? There's stuff that I think women, especially if they're, if women are new, they can't quite handle. Right.

Marc Plus remove a lot of the kind of like sexual dynamic, remove a lot of the competitive [00:32:00] dynamic, right? So when you're just with guys, you just try to be as honest as possible and we can talk about things objectively, kind of coldly sometimes. And when you talk about things that way outside of a men's group, I think people are like, what the fuck are you a sociopath?

Marc that's how men process emotions. It's very different. Then what people think is happening in therapy groups. You know, like we're not often crying and breaking down. We're like, just like looking at stuff as cold and hard as possible and then figuring out what to do about it. Another great thing about Men's Group is if you have a good one and takes a while to get a good one, then we'll call you out, and that is the best gift in the world.

Marc we say at our organization is that it's like a circle of mirrors, right? Like you're there, you're telling your story, you're talking whatever you're going through, and you got six other guys that are reflecting it back to you from different angles. There's no better way to grow than to have a guy compassionately call you out and tell you about a blind spot.

Marc Right. And if you hear from a therapist, you're like, okay, I'm paying this guy. There's some kind of artifice here, right? Again, it's like the rites of passage. It's like a little bit fake, but when you hear from another guy [00:33:00] that's just there just like you, just to improve, it hits in a different way. And I think that's what we're lacking as men.

Marc You know, I, I think people don't challenge us, especially if we're privileged, right? We can get away with a lot of bullshit. I think a lot of men are super isolated, and we're not honest with each other or even with ourselves. So we don't get that feedback. We don't get that feedback loop, But to go back to the market, surreal. I love, you know, that guy a lot, meditations and the book meditations, he has a line where he says like, the soil doesn't lie, right? And men need that. We need something where the feedback is undeniable because then we can integrate it and then we can get better.

Marc And it takes that humility that we're talking about. It takes being able to be like, fuck yeah, you're right. You know what? You're right. Like I'm messing up here. I'm gonna do better. That's that masculine love, that is how as men, we can love each other is by holding each other accountable and hold each other to a higher standard so that we can do better.

Hector what's really become interesting in, in sort of as I've gotten into. You know, before I started this show, [00:34:00] the idea of men's work, I was like, oh, that's like construction. Like I, you know, what do men do? They do blow, you know, they do construction, hvac. but what what was really interesting that came to me is I used to be.

Hector Super guarded and would be super. Everything's gotta be bright and shiny, and everything's all good. Everything's all good all the time. And I, and part of it came from, you know, my upbringing in the sales world where as a sales manager, you know, everything out had to be all good all the time and, you know, never show any weakness or, you know, no, no complaint, like whatever.

Hector And so I took that into the rest of my life and realized that it actually created this. Version of me that was so inauthentic that kind of prevented me from, from really connecting with people or from people connecting with me. And as I got into this space, I was like, oh, like a cheat code, if you will, is to actually like reverse that and just be vulnerable.

Hector And if you want to create an [00:35:00] immediate connection or you wanna sort of, You know, cut straight to the chase, open up a room or like, you know, whatever it is, like being vulnerable. and I think especially in a space of men, like can totally be this, like a game changer.

Hector It can be a catalyst, is what I'm looking for. And I'm, I'm grateful now 'cause I've had a number of people, like almost to a t when they're talking about, you know, the things that I, I bring to a group of things I provide, they're like, thank you for being so vulnerable. Because it helps, you know, it helps the group, you know, for them to be vulnerable.

Hector And I'm, For me, I'm actually doing it in a selfish sort of way. A, it makes it so that I don't have to hide anything, because being that perfect image is such a hard, like, that takes so much energy and effort to, to maintain that perfect image. And also I realize that like, people actually like me more, that it's actually like there's a, a shortcut to that connection.

Hector And for all my, my whole, not my whole life, but like, you know, before I started made this realization, I was always wondering like, why? People were always rubbed the wrong way by me, or they were always sort of offput [00:36:00] or like there was just this lack of connection and it was like, oh, it was just because you were being fake.

Hector Like you were just trying. And they could Intuit that or they could sense that, or whatever it is. And since I've sort of, yeah, I got divorced. Yeah. You know. Ex-wife told me that I wasn't man enough for her. Like all these sort of things, it's like ah, rabbiting myself, right?

Hector I dunno if you've seen the movie Eight Mile. I'm sure you have, you know, growing up in the nineties, but it's like that last scene where he just comes out and he puts it all on the table and it's like, there's nothing, if I can accept this and I can be real with this all in myself, there's nothing you can do to me.

Hector There's nothing you can say that can hurt me. and for me, I've sort of. Turn that I've tried to turn that into a superpower, because I think it's a, I think it's, it's helpful for me, but also it's like, enabling another guy to see like, oh, it's o it's okay too. And oftentimes they're like, I'm going through the same exact thing that you're going through.

Hector I.

Marc That's such a key point, right? The kind of like, yeah, dude, me too. Right? Because I, I think, yeah, I think we are super isolated. We're super fake, you know, we're very competitive. But to be a place [00:37:00] where like if there is a competition, the competition is to be as vulnerable and real and honest as possible, right?

Marc It's not to be as like strong and stoic as possible. Right. It's just to like. To try to say the craziest shit. That's true, right? Like, just to go as deep as possible. And, and that's, that's such a great thing that men need is we need that structure to be able to feel not alone. And, you know, I think every man, every person is a unique collection of problems, right?

Marc We're beautiful snowflakes in that way, but every individual problem, right? Individual issue is not that special. Other people have gone through it. To be there with someone that like gets it right. If you're in a group of six dudes, somebody in there, often more than one, has probably been in something very similar, if not identical and can be like, yeah, I get it.

Marc Sometimes that's all you need. Sometimes you might even need some advice. Hey, that's how I work through, or This is what I didn't do, don't, don't, don't do that. You know, like having that real kinship and that true brotherhood is, I mean, there's nothing like it. though, if you only do one thing right, as a do to self-develop is like get into a men's group of people there, where [00:38:00] that has that mutual respect and that wants you to get better.

Marc Like, it's like having a, a fighter squadron for your life. it is a, a supercharged, thing that you can really, really lean on when you need it.

Hector Yeah. One of the things that really. I found and, and sort of grabbed onto, and I, I'm curious, I've wrestled with it is, stoicism, right? And it was provided such a, a great, foundation for, you know, being able to navigate the challenges of life.

Hector And then I also wonder. If it's, you know, incomplete. Right. And for those of the listeners who aren't, don't know what that is. Right. Stoicism is like the, school of thought that people like Seneca and maybe Plato or I don't know if Marcus really considers himself a, you know, a stoic, but these, ancient Greek philosophers who Yeah, essentially it was like the, the motto was like, everything's fine.

Hector Everything will be good. what I took from it was that. Don't show emotion. Right. That's, I remember coming out of it, it was like, okay, be stoic. Right? There's that, that, you know, have a stoic face. It was like, [00:39:00] okay. and for me that was like, all right, let me suppress emotion. Let me just shove it down and then not worry about it.

Hector And thinking like, that was the way to do it. And as I've sort of grown in this, I've seen that like, that sort of incomplete, or maybe it was a. Maybe I didn't fully understand. Right. I, I, I was missing a part of it in the actual Okay. It's not just shutting it down, it's processing or it's doing something.

Hector How do you reconcile, those sorts of things. And, and I'm curious if you think that Marcus really, you know, if you group him in that, but how you sort of help guys to, reconcile those two ideas of being. Stoic and, and non-emotional with, you know, in touch with our emotions and, you know, honest and vulnerable.

Marc Yeah. So I, I think Mark real estate is a stoic, I mean, he, he was a student of stoics, so he used a lot of stoic philosophy and his, you know, governance. and yeah, I think what you're saying is what most people take from it, and I do think it's incorrect. Like, I think that stoicism like retranslated through the [00:40:00] American modern lens because what you're talking about is I think American male culture, right?

Marc Which is like stuff, everything down, be that kind of like hard face, even the word stoic, right? Like when we say have stoic expression or be stoic, you think it's like an unmoving rock. But if you read what they say, it's not that. So what I like to say with stoicism is it's not, don't feel, it's, it is what it is.

Marc But it being what it is means that it might have an emotional flavor, right? Pain is still pain, you know, but you don't have to make it worse, or you don't have to minimize it. You just try to see it for exactly as it is. That's kind of the idea. another great companion stoicism, if you're interested is, Buddhism.

Marc So I studied Buddhism intensely for about five years, went to a graduate school. My degree is actually in Buddhist psychology. and I see that as it's the same thing, but it's a little bit more feminine, right? It's the idea of in fighting the emotion, feel it, you know, there's kind of a classic thing of like, you know, have a cup of tea with it, get to know it, right?

Marc And, you know, chat with it and then let it go. I think [00:41:00] stoicism is maybe more masculine, but it's still the same thing of like try to see reality as it is. Which means it's gonna have ups and downs, right? Which means that things are gonna hurt you, but also things are gonna make you feel good. But it's about not being hysterical, right?

Marc Which would be overreacting, but also not being suppressing and you know, suppressing everything. Right? Underreacting. and that's hard. I mean, that, that's a lifetime discipline of really trying to see things as they truly are, see things. And and Mark just said will say like, you know, see things for its nature.

Marc Right. And what he means by nature is like reality as it is without storyline, without your own kind of bullshit. Whether that be your childhood trauma, right? Coloring it or your stereotypes or your biases or your assumptions. Like try to strip away all of that and encounter it just as it is. Just like I said before, you have like, the soil doesn't lie, right?

Marc Get to something that is real. That is true, that is undeniable. that's the spiritual quest is, is seeking that truth, you yeah, I think social has been warped to just be this thing of like suppress everything, versus, [00:42:00] you know, engage with it. another, you know, quick metaphor that I like that might help illustrate this point is, there's, you know, archery, there's Western Archery and there's zen archery.

Marc Okay, so when you look at Western archery, competitions, you know, if you think of like English long Bowman or whatever, right? The idea is you wanna shoot the arrow as hard and as fast as possible, right? You want it to go really long. You want it to punch through armor, right? It's about like maximize force and like the best archer is the one that can maximize force,

Hector right?

Marc In zen archery, Japanese archery or Eastern archery, their target is a bale of hay. And it's actually positioned in about the midpoint that the, bow can go. So it's not about maximizing force, it's about getting the proper amount of force. So your arrow just lands and just, just notches perfectly in that bale of hay, right?

Marc If you use too much force, you go through the target and you actually, and you miss, right? If you use not enough force, then it just falls short. And I think that when we talk about aggression of violence, you were speaking about that earlier. That's the skill that men [00:43:00] need. It's not about not being violent, it's not about always being violent.

Marc It's about knowing the proper amount of force to use in a particular situation. And that is, I mean, that's a spiritual pursuit, right? Like that's, you spend your whole life figuring that kind of shit out. You know, that's, that's a level of mastery. I think that is what we're being called to do, is to not give up the bow, not give up the weapons, not give up the power, but to learn how to really master it.

Marc How to really apply it in a perfect amount. Yeah.

Hector One of my friends, KA, who's a former guest of the show, but he talks and he shares on, on, the interview that I did with him about how his brother, who spent, a number of years in jail, they got out, he just got outta jail and they were in a grocery store and there was a bunch of, you know, really rambunctious, guys, you know, behind him.

Hector And one accidentally bumped into him and, you know, he turned around and. There was this, this face off. And thankfully the other guy was like, oh man, I'm sorry. Like, you know, didn't mean to do that. And CO's brother was like, oh man, no, no worries. [00:44:00] Like, no big deal. Like whatever. and he was, he was scared in that moment that his brother was gonna turn around and just because someone bumped into him and was gonna, you know, tear his head off and create all this, you know, chaos and whatever, whatever.

Hector And he was like, no. His brother was skilled in that. it was on tap where if he needed to use it, he could deploy it skillfully, but when it wasn't the right situation, he could also keep his, you know, sword sheath. And I think that that's sort of what we're trying to find is when do we pull our sword?

Hector When do we keep his sheath? And, because if you're not confident or skillful in that, then you just pull it out. when it's not necessary and you're causing and creating havoc or you don't and you're, you're too timid and there's, you know, they're, that kind of fall into that wimp sort of, classification and then you get, you know, stepped on or, or you know, your boundaries or whatever.

Hector It's, right. But it's, it's the balance that you're talking about that really makes it.

Marc Yeah. And to, you know, to weave it back to our, topic of fatherhood, right? I mean, I, again, my daughter's three weeks old, right? But I imagine we know when your kids get older, right? That is the, [00:45:00] ground for that.

Marc Because as the masculine's, like sometimes you gotta shoot your kids a look, right? Obviously you don't hit them, but you gotta shoot 'em a look and be like, Hey, stop. Right? Like that's the masculine is putting up that boundary. And it comes from love, it comes from containment. It comes from wanting to create structure and create a harmonious household.

Marc There's no violence. You're not trying to like hurt them. There's no sadism, right? But like you need to know how to apply force strategically. I feel like that is the ultimate challenge. And you know, with, with children, I mean, I think with women or feminine individuals, they need that, right? They need that kind of like boundary and structure, right?

Marc That is what the masculine energy is and what it brings. And that is what is needed in this world is people just being like, Hey, quit it,

Hector for sure. And I think that unfortunately, a lot of guys have to either seek models, find them, you know, join groups like, yours, where they can be exposed to that.

Hector 'cause I, I think about, you know, in my upbringing, and I've talked a lot about my parents and I love 'em both and I love 'em dearly and I see 'em often and, you know, [00:46:00] and also my mom wore the pants in the house. my dad, Snapped. It was like pushover, pushover, pushover, and then snapped. There was no, there was no skillful use of force.

Hector And so for me, there was no model. And, and again, I just came up going, well, I'm not gonna do that. Right. And so I think what we do have to try and find is okay if we're not gonna be that, what are we going to be, what do we define ourselves as? And the an, you know, defining ourselves as in the negative is, like you said, it's not very helpful.

Marc you need it in the beginning to like, you know, close off the problem space, but then you gotta figure out like, okay, now that you've cordoned off some stuff, what are you, if you're not that? Mm-hmm. And I think, yeah, for those guys, like, and, and it sounds like you're, you know, you've done a lot of this work, so when you see those aggressive dudes, you know, to the point you're making earlier around the inner demons, it's like they are being ruled by insecurity, right?

Marc When a man is acting out of pure violence, like he's using his sword and he actually wants to hurt that person. That's when the inner demons come up, because that man is actually feeling insecure. That man is actually feeling [00:47:00] afraid that man is actually maybe getting some kind of, you know, trauma PTSD response from his father that maybe beat him.

Marc You know, like, like when it becomes sadistic, that's when it's gone too far, you know? And that man is actually in that moment is actually weak, right? He might be doing something that's violent and something that's scary, something that's intimidating, but he is weak because he's let those demons win in that moment.

Marc Yeah, it's not the proper use of force. It's those, it's that pain and that cowardice often. Right. And that fear coming through and enacting. And I think the more men that can see those guys is actually weak and insecure, the better hope we have of creating a different world, you know, not being so afraid of them anymore.

Hector Yeah. somewhere I saw that, in an instant like that, or when you're in conflict with someone or someone's in a situation like that to see the. The wounded child. Right, exactly. Exactly. You see the, the wounded child in them and realize that, that, scared 6-year-old is this scared 36-year-old.

Hector And, they're very much the same. One of the [00:48:00] other things that I wanted to just get your insights on is we talked, I, I love that, you know, you provide a lot of community for men and I think that that is so important. It's something that I have a, a Gardens of life, you know, assessment that I try and take, you know, as often as I can to sort of see how I'm doing in, in other areas.

Hector And, one of the things a line items is, you know, men's group. The other one is what I call like bro calls. Just 'cause I, I think that it's important to be in community with other men. And I also think that, A lot of the work is done in solitude or a lot of the work is you can meet however often, you know, once a week, you know, every other week or whatever it is.

Hector And also, there is work to be done in between that there's work to be done. at least in my opinion, I've, found that like, on, on your own, and maybe that's with someone or with a coach, but, but it's still, you have to do the work. For me, things like breath work or, you know, cold showers, ice baths, you know, martial arts.

Hector Those are the sort of the things that, that help me to, you know, individually work through some of those things. Are there any habits, [00:49:00] protocols, I don't know, techno things that you like to do that some a guy can do on their own that might help them navigate some of these things?

Marc Yeah, I kind have two answers to your question.

Marc I, I think the first one, is yes. Like it is ultimately all on your own, right? I think that the community and the therapist, or the coach or the guide or the mentor, they exist to keep you strong and to keep you motivated and to maybe give you a little bit of a map, right? But like ultimately you have to walk that,

Marc And I think whatever that technology is gonna be, what I encourage the guys is that it has to be something that you're really insecure about, right? So, for instance, for me, right, like as a kid, I was really overweight. You know, I always had this like deep shame about being fat or being unattractive or whatever, right?

Marc So I could do all this spiritual shit. I could do all this intellectual shit, stuff that I was already gifted at and it didn't quite hit until, did something that I was really hard, which for me was getting a hold of my diet and joining a CrossFit gym. I was the kind of guy that like, I didn't want to do anything physical.

Marc I didn't wanna do anything physical with [00:50:00] other men because I was insecure. I was insecure around it. Frankly, I was embarrassed. I thought I'd be judged, and it was until I did that. That I really started to grow. And I think for other guys, it's, you're gonna have your own versions. There's gonna be, and I'm sure you're thinking about it right now as you're listening, there's gonna be one category, whether it's health and fitness, whether it's relationships, whether it's sex, whether it's spirituality, whether it's, you know, survival in the woods, being alone, whatever it is, the thing you're fucking the most afraid about.

Marc That's what you gotta do. And I think the community and a guide can help you. Get the strength and the courage and, and help you, you know, when you fall down, pick you back up. Like there's a lot of benefit in that. But until you fight that thing and every guy has that thing, every guy has it. Until you fight that thing, you're not gonna get better.

Marc I, I think all these other things, like, they're great. I mean, I, I did coach hours for a while. I meditate every day. Those are all ways to practice discipline, but it's not a one size fits all. I think the real key is like, you gotta focus on your weaknesses. Whereas men, that's the thing, we're conditioned to [00:51:00] just ignore, like you said, put it in that room, shut the door.

Marc Like you gotta, you gotta focus on the thing that you're insecure about because every man has something.

Hector That's great, great advice. You know, I think for me it's probably, you know, finances and, and money and, and self worth around money and the relationship. And it's always interesting because I, I am in the exact same way, do the meditations, do the breath work, do all, do all the things, and, and it's like, oh, but I'm avoiding that one area that is, you know.

Hector Really the thing that, that I should be working on, you know,

Marc that's the thing. Yeah. It's like get a budget app. Right. Figure it out. what I'll, what I'll also say no, we're, we're near our time, but on community, like, and this, this is kind of anti my own company, but I do think it's real, is like all again, the men's groups, the therapy, the coaching, all this stuff.

Marc Really good do it. Obviously this is my career, but it also is like a little bit fake. It's a little bit fake. and it wasn't until, for me personally, I moved to a small town I live in, up in the mountains in like a rural area, and I actually need to meet my neighbors and we do a lot of fire mitigation here, so we're cutting down trees and shit all the time, or [00:52:00] helping, you know, elderly people move or deal with like wildlife, right?

Marc I, I, I'm in a real community of people that actually need me, that we actually need each other. So if there's listeners out there, or maybe yourself, I don't know, but that have done a lot of this work formally, right? In these kind of slightly artificial environments. Like now the next step is actually make a community in real life, you know?

Marc And for a lot of people that's maybe a community of parents right at, at the school, right? Or join a team or get involved in like a nonprofit or volunteer, but do something real in the world. Because I think a lot of dudes can kind of get addicted to men's work, but they don't take it outside of the room into the real world.

Marc And I, and I back that kind of ashe's metaphor. I think that's what's needed is men to take everything we've learned, which has been really critical, but then make it matter. Right? Make it matter with real people in real ways, you know?

Hector Yeah. This has been such a, a fantastic conversation. We're gonna have to have you come back for, another round.

Hector Two quick questions for you [00:53:00] though. If people wanna get more connected with you. Find out about the, um, your groups. I know that you serve people, you know, in a variety of different areas. Oh, if they, want more info on that, where's the best place for them to go?

Marc Everything's on the website. So it's men's therapy online.

Marc we got so much free shit. I mean, I got my own podcast that has like hundreds of episodes. We got tons of blogs, we got courses, many of them free. We have an online Slack community that's totally free. You can join and join an online community. We have a free book club, so there's, so we're really focused on accessibility.

Marc And then if you wanna work with a licensed professional, right? We'll charge you for that. But there's so many inroads, so it's not about money, right? we have so many ways to connect. With guys, and all that's on men's therapy.online, check us out. we do individual couples group, and retreats. So we have plenty of ways to plug in based on where you're at.

Hector Amazing. And we'll link that up in the show notes for you guys as always. And, last question for you here. In your opinion, what is the, definition of modern masculinity?

Marc I think that's kinda what we, what we've been talking about. What say with a [00:54:00] lot of my guys, it's, it's having the tools for the job and knowing when to use them, and it's not, everything's a hammer, right?

Marc Not everything's a screwdriver. Sometimes you need a a pillow, sometimes you need a blanket. Sometimes you need to get on your knees and pray. But it's like filling out your toolbox as best as you can, and then having the wisdom to know when to use them. I think that's what makes a man, a modern man.

Marc And that's, and that's mastery, right? That's life mastery. It's being really good at being a man and being really good at being a human and being an active member of your communities and your society, right? There's that, that's how your life gets meaningful. That's what really matters out there.