Embracing the Evolving Definition of Masculinity with Everett Shupe

[00:00:00] Hector: Dr. E Everett, welcome and thank you for being on the Modern Masculinity Show.

[00:00:04] Everett: Thanks, Hector for inviting me. I'm looking forward to where this conversation takes.

[00:00:09] Hector: Yeah, it's always different. It's always needed. we've recorded about 15 or so so far, and every conversation has gone to A little bit different of a place, but it seems, uh, equally needed and relevant and I know today will be no different. So, catch us up though.

[00:00:26] Hector: What's, going on in your world? what are some challenges you're having have so many, hats that you wear, so, you know, I'm curious what's real and, and relevant for you right now?

[00:00:36] Everett: Sure. the first thing is personally, my youngest, just went to college. So my wife and I are, figuring out, not necessarily empty nest, but adult kids coming in and out of the house and sort of our house as a train station, not as a, as a destination. that's, what's happening on the personal side.

[00:00:56] Everett: On the professional side, I just moved to a new position, vice president of leadership development. At this organization that I'm working with and, from just helping people understand their own learning and development in the workplace. Yeah, it's cool the worlds that you're in and would love to go into this, idea of. not necessarily EPD nesting from your perspective, but I'm curious how you're approaching it from your, kids' perspective. You have a son or daughter I have two sons and a daughter. My daughter's 18, two sons are 21, 24, living in the house. they have jobs, they're fully employed right now. One's finishing up college, and then my daughter, you know, comes home for breaks and, such.

[00:01:42] Hector: so one of the, conversations that's emerged is that, In previous generations when, let's say a man was 18, he was shown the door, there was an expectation of, you kind of go your own way. And I think that the realities is that that has changed.

[00:02:00] Hector: And what's interesting is the dynamic that that creates for young men, there's almost this,perhaps it's an uncertainty.a confusion. I'm not sure. Like my brother, he's, 25. He still lives at home and he has no plans to change that, nor does my mom have any plans to change it either.

[00:02:17] Hector: They're both in a, very Okay. Comfortable setting. I'm just curious how you're kind of approaching that with your sons the approach that you're taking.

[00:02:25] Everett: Yeah. at first it was hard for me because I was, looking at them, doing the same kind of thing that I did once they were, outta college or had a job, you know, go and, live in their own place. I actually was running away from my house. not that it was a bad situation. I loved my mom and dad, but I.

[00:02:43] Everett: wanted to be independent. And I just think, you know, the confluence of a lot of situations, the environment, the economy has just made it hard for a lot of, young men and women to do that. And, my wife and I have, taken the stance that we are going to support, our sons and our daughter, however, we need to support them.

[00:03:06] Everett: And, uh, you know, as long as you set up ground rules, there's an unspoken rule in our house, you kind of let us know what you're doing and where you're going, just so we don't. Wait up for you, just so that we know to leave, the light on for you, on the front porch. that we wanna keep tabs on you, but, in our house, we know what's going you away for too long.

[00:03:28] Everett: we at least know what you're doing and where you're. Where you are. So it seemed to work. It seems to work really well. and they've been very respectful those that.

[00:03:37] Hector: Yeah, it's an interesting thing this. dynamic that has to happen. That seems with, and I'd imagine with men, with women, there's these experiences that allow us to grow into, the next evolution of ourselves.

[00:03:51] Hector: and I think as parents, I'm dealing with my four year old, I find myself in this mode of. Not trying to coddle, not trying to protect too much, Likeplaying the delicate balance of providing and protecting will also, helping them get out of the nest as well in a variety of capacities.

[00:04:06] Hector: I'm just trying to get my son to go down the stairs without me.

[00:04:09] Everett: Yeah. Yeah. it's an interesting, concept actor. You know, I was thinking about this I telecommute, I live in Frederick, Maryland and my job is in Richmond, Virginia, and it's about a two hour commute. And this morning I had to go further into Richmond and I, listened to another podcast that I was on about, vulnerability and men.

[00:04:30] Everett: And I was thinking, you know, We're in a different, society now than our fathers and their grandfathers and, great-grandfathers. You know, when you think about the agrarian society. Most, men, had their sons working side by side with them. They were in the fields together working. they came home, they ate dinner together. They ate breakfast together before they went out, and there was this bond around work. most men did whatever their father did, and if they didn't do what their father did, they went out and explored new opportunities. Then, the industrial, society happened and men.

[00:05:10] Everett: Went away from the house and women were kinda left to take care of the boys. And instead of being with your dad 24 7 and working with him and eating with him and extracurricular activities, suddenly the dad's gone and mom is in charge and mom is raising the kids.

[00:05:28] Everett: And I feel like. this recent society that we've become fathers in, there's been this, collaborative effort. Like my wife made more than me when we started out. and she actually, her salary is still higher than mine. so, you we need both of us to be.

[00:05:47] Everett: coactive participants in the raising of our kids, where it's not just the dad, it's not just the mom. Now it's both of us. And it'll be interesting to see how that plays out even further with younger generations and, different notions of households. You you need a mom, you need a dad, you need a.

[00:06:06] Everett: You two parents, that is all changing. it literally becoming a village, to raise our kids nowaday.

[00:06:14] Hector: It's fascinating that you bring up the fact that men were, with their sons a lot more in previous generations because I, feel like and I'm experiencing this as I'm working from home more so I'm available to be around more. And I did that, intentionally because I knew we were having kids in the whole thing.

[00:06:30] Hector: But what's what's also interesting is that as I'm spending more time with the kids, as my wife, her career is kind of taking off and, she's working more, I'm doing a lot more parenting, but what's interesting is I had a, a really good friend who gave me this jab. He's like, oh, you're, playing Mr.

[00:06:45] Hector: Mom. he said it as a jab, but I think we're looking at it the wrong way. I know a lot of guys that are resentful of the extra time that they have to spend or they're resentful of, ofhaving to pick up some of these extra duties around the house or whatever.

[00:06:58] Hector: Because I mean, from what you're saying, it's just, I don't think it's placed in the right perspective.

[00:07:02] Everett: Yeah, I would agree. when my wife and I had kids, one of the first, experiences we had was she was, acting like a mama bear and would not involve me in certain things. And I had a conversation with her. I'm like, you know what? I see why some men are not engaged in their childcare.

[00:07:19] Everett: Because if you wanna do everything and make all the decisions, And leave me out, then that doesn't leave me any choice but to not be involved. And I made it clear from the very beginning, I wanted to be as involved in raising our children as she was. I wanted it to be 50 50. I, wanted to be there for them.

[00:07:39] Everett: call me crazy. I wanted to change diapers. I wanted, I wanted to, you know, rock them to sleep. and quite honestly, I think. My three kids, just have better temperaments. They have better, coping mechanisms because they did have a relationship, with me and my wife. And we offered.

[00:07:58] Everett: Different perspectives for them and different ways of being. My wife is a scientist. She's very rational and, you know, likes facts and figures. I'm the emotional one. I'm the, social one, the one who's gonna be involved in activities. And so it gave them two role models who, offered very different perspectives and quite honestly two role models who did not practice the traditional.

[00:08:25] Everett: Gender stereotype activities. if we want a car fixed in our house, my wife knows how to do that. I'm not getting myself dirty, cleaning out the oil or whatever. On the flip side, I like to clean house and I'm gonna clean the bathrooms and do the laundry and. the meals.

[00:08:41] Everett: So I think we've just provided them with, non-traditional perspectives. And I think they're, healthier and thriving in society because of.

[00:08:50] Hector: Yeah. I think those examples are what is missing, at least for most people. and it's, terrible that my parents are the brunt of a lot of these examples. Right. But, you know, I just think of my dad. My dad would get home from work and he would kick up his feet on the sofa and open a beer, and my mom would literally be sweeping under his feet, trying to, Clayton the house.

[00:09:11] Hector: And so for me, come into marriage and even. Unconsciously, I have these expectations, or I have these, predispositions about what something is supposed to look like. And I think that's so changing and, a reason that we're doing this show is that the guidebooks haven't been rewritten,

[00:09:28] Hector: for men I'm only a few years younger than your sons, so, but like, you have set a great model for them and hopefully this show can, kind of create a few more.

[00:09:36] Everett: Well, I knew I was not getting myself into the same situation that my mom and dad had when, my wife and I took a trip, before we actually got married. I think we may have still been in college, but we were seriously thinking about marriage. And we were having dinner or lunch or something and my wife said, are you expecting me to take your last name when we get married?

[00:10:01] Everett: And I said, well, yeah, that's like the tradition, right? You're gonna take my last name? And she's like, well, I am gonna take your last name, but let me tell you why I'm gonna take your last name. And it's not for the reasons that you think it is. For her, it was a practical reason. She didn't wanna hyphenate, she wanted her kids to have my last name.

[00:10:20] Everett: And so again, my rational data analyst, type of wife was like, here's all the reasons that I am taking your last name and none of them have to do with the traditional, I'm your wife, I'm, yours or whatever. And I think that that set me up. To think, okay, this is gonna be a non-traditional relationship.

[00:10:42] Everett: I'm not gonna be able to come home and have dinner for.

[00:10:50] Hector: Yeah, it's funny, I'm just laughing cuz I relate so much in the sense that a big reason why I was drawn to start this show was that my wife I don't think she'd get upset at me saying it. she has a lot of masculine tendencies, with work.

[00:11:05] Hector: She's really driven with work, I mean, she's a very powerful person, that's what I love about her. there's nothing wrong, or bad about that. what I struggled with was how do I, and where do I still fit into and support that?

[00:11:19] Hector: at least initially and I'm still dealing with lots of the insecurities and stuff like that, but at least initially was,if she makes money? What does that mean for me? it was weird seeing these conversations play out in my head because, intellectually I didn't really associate with those types of, beliefs at least.

[00:11:36] Hector: What I thought, but I felt my, subconscious, my programming falling into these, what would be kind of just traditional tendencies that I, didn't even realize were there, you know? And so it's just interesting that you bring this up.

[00:11:47] Everett: you know, if I were to give men advice and even women advice is, those traditional archetypes or those traditional models and roles, probably don't work for these days and ages. And I would encourage, you know, men and women to lean into their strengths.

[00:12:04] Everett: for example, I'm the social, one of the household, for one of us to join the pta. My wife is like, I don't wanna do that. you're more suited to join the pta. You wanna go have conversations with all those women and you wanna talk with all those parents and you wanna talk with the teachers.

[00:12:23] Everett: You go ahead and join the pta. You become PTA president. I really don't wanna have anything to do with it. Not that she didn't care about our children's, education. I would bring her in when we needed to have an analytical, data driven conversation with one of the teachers. But from a social.

[00:12:39] Everett: Perspective. You know, she kinda let me handle that stuff. And in our relationship, I'm the one who remembers everybody's names. We were, we were on a hayride one time one of our local farms, and this person was talking to us and I recognized the person, but didn't necessarily remember their name.

[00:12:59] Everett: And I knew that they worked with my wife we were talking to them. And I, I, I was, I kept signaling. I tried to ask her, who was this without asking her who was this? Then finally, you know, we got off the hayride and my wife was like, who was that? I'm like, they work for you.

[00:13:17] Everett: I dunno who it was. She's like, I rely on you to remember those things. I'm like, yeah, but they're from your workplace. How am I supposed to remember, their name? And we know what each other's strengths are and we lean into those. Like it took me a while to get over the whole. she makes more money than me. my wife is also two years older than me. We are both the oldest children in our family, so that means we have to get our way all the time. it's hard to get your way when somebody's two years older than you, argues from facts and data and analytics versus feeling and, makes more money than you.

[00:13:54] Everett: It's, it's like, well, What am I supposed to do with that? I did have a conversation with her, like a year or two into our marriage, and I was like, you know, I was a much more confident person before I married you. And she's like, what? I'm like, yeah. I said, I've lost a lot of confidence in our relationship.

[00:14:12] Everett: And she's like, why? And I'm like, well, think about it. You make more money than me. You're two years older than me. You always have to win the argument because you argue off of facts and data and not emotions and feelings and intuition. Think about how that makes me feel like every decision is. kind of decided by you because you want the facts and the figures and I don't always have those facts and figures.

[00:14:38] Everett: And she's like, well, I don't want you to feel like that. I'm like, well, you need to let me win at least some of the times. You need to let, you need to trust my intuition. You need to trust some of them. My gut feelings. And you know, after we had that conversation, Our conversations changed. she asked more questions like, well, why do you think that?

[00:14:59] Everett: Why does your, why is your gut telling you that? and I could explain more to her why I felt a certain way, and that gave her the data and analytics she needed, to support. meeting me halfway in an argument, it became even more prevalent with kids because kids, when you raise kids, it's not all data, facts and figures.

[00:15:20] Everett: It's a lot of emotion. And I just know they're having this problem. And she trusted my instinct even more when the kids, because I was able to relate to them on that social emotional level.

[00:15:33] Hector: Yeah, I think this is so important I don't know how it's emerging, but, the archetypal man or what a

[00:15:39] Hector: man looks like or acts like, or, the Marlon Brando kind of Stella, like, that's shifting and it's changing, and I think There's not enough men who feel confident in that shift. in that difference. I'm taking so much confidence from your experience and your story going through like, yeah, there are places where she excels that I don't and vice versa. And being okay with it not having to fit in these traditional boxes that, our parents and our grandparents seem to, care so much about perhaps.

[00:16:09] Everett: Well, I think you're onto something there, and it not only manifests itself in the home, it manifests itself in the workplace as well. I see a lot of young men who are not able to relate. To some of the other men in the workplace because they may not have the similar experiences. It used to be, you know, everything was handled on the golf course.

[00:16:35] Everett: When you came in Monday morning, you talked about Saturday night or Sunday night football. Well, You know, not all men are watching, football at one Sunday nights. Not all men are on the golf course, and there are other interests, and that's something that I've to, not battle in the workplace, but.

[00:16:55] Everett: Really find other ways, to connect with men in the workplace because, I didn't watch, that football game this weekend. So what else is there for us to talk about? do you have kids? We could talk about the kids. And some men, are uncomfortable with that because like, they don't know their kids as well as I know my kids.

[00:17:14] Everett: And, so it's been, all of these phenomenon, Converge in the workplace. I think when young men find other men that don't necessarily meet that archetype, no matter how different they are, I think they're just happy to find somebody that's different like they are, um, and not necessarily trying to meet up.

[00:17:36] Everett: You know, with this certain archetype, it also puts a lot of pressure on men. why would you want to have to live up to some certain, archetype that was manifested, by Hollywood? I mean, that's not necessarily where I wanna, my values and, and live my life from.

[00:17:55] Hector: Yeah, that's another big theme that's emerged is that The exam once again, this going back to these models, but, the models that have been perpetuated by Hollywood and by the media. Right. You think about the Homer Simpsons or the family guys or the Tim Allens, the Al Bundys, right.

[00:18:11] Hector: These stereotypical dads that, well, they're not helpful, I don't think to guys, None of those guys are happy we could start there. None of 'em seem to have you fulfilled, so I'm, curious.

[00:18:21] Hector: I'd love for you to, continue on, what you think about what. some of these media portrayals might be doing, or, or the lack thereof.

[00:18:29] Everett: I think, we may be turning a corner in that I think we are offering, New, not necessarily archetypes, but I think we are actually noticing, differences. And, mean, I don't know what you've been watching, but a lot of shows that I've been watching, and I, I can't put my finger on the pos of one right now, but they are offering different, I guess, facets.

[00:18:57] Everett: of masculinity, different ways that people can, be a father. It's not just the

[00:19:04] Everett: alies or the family guy. I'm at a loss for

[00:19:07] Everett: what

[00:19:08] Hector: One of them. I haven't watched it too much, but believe that, modern family seems to do that

[00:19:12] Hector: pretty well. Right. The dad, the dad in that mo in that show is,

[00:19:16] Hector: he's a pretty good dad,

[00:19:17] Hector: From what I've gathered,

[00:19:18] Everett: Yeah. I don't know if you've seen Schitz Creek on, Netflix, but, Johnny Rose, he's this wealthy, uh, Hollywood person that loses all this money. And he is not the traditional, he is the traditional breadwinner, but he's non-traditional in his approach. They do portray different types of, men, of different types of fathers On that show, I'm trying to think of.

[00:19:43] Hector: know, that's a great point that we haven't given enough credence to in the fact that media perhaps even in the last several years, Because if we were to go back, maybe 10 years, I don't know that we could say that maybe five years things started to change and in the last several years there's a lot more, options out there.

[00:19:59] Hector: And so those types of good ideas are bubbling up to the surface.

[00:20:02] Everett: You know what? I just thought even the, popular, C S I or N C I S or F B I shows I was catching the tail end of F B I, the original, the one that where I guess they're housed in New York and there were two male characters at the end of the show, and I guess

[00:20:21] Everett: one of the main characters is dealing with some financial issues and trying to buy a condo. And his, male counterpart, they cut to the scene at the end where they were together and, the guy says, Hey, I'd like to consider that we're good friends, and if you need any help, you would always count on me to be there for you.

[00:20:43] Everett: And the other one is like, yeah, I, consider us good friends as well, and I would, Ask you for help if I needed it. And that those shows, I think, have shown men struggling with emotion, with family versus work. I mean, these are the F B I series is high intensity, work.

[00:21:03] Everett: It's not like you can just. take a break and go on a vacation or whatever, in the middle of solving a crime. And I think these shows have actually done a good job of showing that these men have personal lives as well. that they're grappling with.

[00:21:18] Hector: Yeah, it's a really good point. we just watched you people, I don't know if you've seen that one. Have you seen that?

[00:21:23] Everett: I haven't, I do wanna see that though.

[00:21:26] Hector: it's funny, just by itself, it has another layer cuz you know, Jonah Hill, he quits his job to start a podcast. And so I have some, personal, personal things about that. but reason I bring it up is that in that relate, in that portrayal, His fiance is very, you know, what would a lot of, would consider masculine.

[00:21:48] Hector: She's moving and wants to be, wants to earn. there's this scene where Jonah Hill offers to quote unquote hold her down, right in between jobs, but, you know, essentially finances or whatever it is. And the fact that he would offer, she was offended

[00:22:02] Hector: And that was kind of this point of contention in the show. I think it does highlight the nuances of. Relationships and perhaps those things were always there. They just got, silenced or there wasn't as much opportunity or I don't know. Right. I don't know that it's necessarily a changing of the times or it's a changing of the expectations or who knows.

[00:22:22] Hector: when you do speak about that, nuances of the relationships are being portrayed and I think that's helpful.

[00:22:27] Everett: at least gives, you know, men alternative roles or alternative types of men on screen that they can identify with and perhaps validate, the emotions or feelings or situations that they're, in.

[00:22:44] Hector: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. this has been a, great start to the, conversation. I'm curious, we try and leave some practical advice so when we come back from break, I would love for you to share some thoughts on how. A guy might approach this, what are maybe some stories or some ideas, some lessons.

[00:23:01] Hector: because it seems like you have, been doing it, you've been, in this, relationship and, succeeding at it, I'm sure, I know it's not been easy, you it and you've been doing it for decades. And so we're gonna talk about hopefully you're not offended by a, what someone might call a non-traditional relationship.

[00:23:15] Hector: we're gonna get into that right after this break.

[00:23:16] Everett: Sure.

[00:23:22] Hector: Hey guys.

[00:23:22] Hector: Today's episode is brought to you by Amplify Media, and our mission is to bring out your genius, and so if you have a mission, a message, a purpose, something that you wanna get out to the world but don't have the time or the tech skills to do that, we can help. Go to amplify media.com.

[00:23:36] Hector: You can find all the info in the show notes and let's see if we can help you. But that, let's get back to today's episode. Dr. E, let's take this one of two places. The first is, that you can draw from a lot of experience. You've got, 20 something year old kids, you're, almost an empty ish nester, I'm sure some nights it, feels that way.

[00:24:00] Hector: then you're also out there, working in a, rather, large organization. helping people become better people too. So I'm curious if there's any overlap between what we've been talking about when it comes to, being at home and what some might call a non-traditional relationship. And also the leadership work that you're doing at work, you know, with Goodwill and, stuff like that. is there any overlap there that you see?

[00:24:24] Everett: Yeah, so it's interesting with leadership and learning. I completed my dissertation in, 2019. And I graduated 2020. one of the things that, I would say my dissertation was on vulnerability. how, and I studied CEOs. I studied how new CEOs experience vulnerability as they learn in the workplace.

[00:24:52] Everett: And one of my findings was, you know, learning is different at that level. It's not about, The mastery of a skill or mastery of a discipline like financial spreadsheets or learning how to use Excel. It really is all about learning how to manage relationships and how to, be with different people and the story, the narrative that you tell yourself.

[00:25:17] Everett: And one of The findings that stemmed from that are rooted in vulnerability. So vulnerability. The definition that I like to use is, Brene Brown's definition of vulnerability as risk, uncertainty and emotional exposure. And what I found were. leaders who were able to, tell a confident story about themselves no matter what they have gone through.

[00:25:43] Everett: were always the hero of their story and leaders who were able to establish strong relationships with other people. We're best able to deal with uncertainty and risk, and therefore more able to expose their emotions. And so what I've found for me is that exposing of emotions and really being confident in who you are.

[00:26:10] Everett: Is really helpful in whatever relationship you're in. whether you call it a non-traditional relationship or even a traditional relationship, it's really, putting stuff out there. Two of my values are curiosity and courage, and. I will be the courageous one to start off a conversation.

[00:26:29] Everett: and I've, seen this with men in the workplace. You know, sometimes you have to be kind of the first one to show your cards. and then if you show your cards, then other men will be like, oh, wow, you just revealed something personal about yourself. I, I guess you're a safe individual where I can do the same.

[00:26:46] Everett: And, one of the things That we're grappling with in the workplace is how to maneuver the workplace through emotions when for so long we've been told emotions have no place in the workplace. And it's really, given people the language and, the space. To be able to share their emotions without being emotional.

[00:27:08] Everett: You know, there's a difference between saying, Hey, I'm feeling sad right now, or I'm feeling upset that that's different than flying off the handle and yelling at somebody. And I think, for men who have had to repress their emotions forever to meet these archetypical examples, I can imagine it's very hard for them to even admit that they're feeling a certain emotion.

[00:27:35] Everett: And so, advice that I shared on another podcast was taking it in bite sizes. you don't have to dive in the deep end and, you know, become vulnerable and, lay all your emotions out on, your heart, on your sleeves.

[00:27:51] Everett: It's

[00:27:51] Everett: really,

[00:27:52] Hector: shouldn't

[00:27:52] Everett: Yeah. Yeah. You

[00:27:53] Everett: probably

[00:27:54] Hector: right away at at work or in your family. what's interesting that you, bring up Everett, is that this, awareness of emotions, You talked about they're not even able to admit it. And it's like, for me, I've been fortunate enough to have years of mindfulness practice and I've been doing breath work, you know, pretty, Consistently for a few months now, and I'm doing the work and only now after years of self-reflection and years of trying to figure out what's wrong with me, am I starting to, Unpack these emotions. when you talk about the language, it's like, I don't even know if they're tuning in yet not even on the right frequency.

[00:28:32] Hector: Sometimes waves are hitting them. They're just

[00:28:35] Hector: not, hearing it in the way that, they can properly receive it.

[00:28:39] Everett: Yeah, we talked about my kids and I'm very fortunate to have two young men that have never been afraid, to share their feelings. my father was not, And I love you, father I love my father greatly. if I ever said I loved you, to him, his response would be, what do you want?

[00:28:58] Everett: What do you need? and I think I did that one time we had the far one of our health classes. We had to tell both of our parents, I love you. And I was like, so nervous because I didn't know how my father would react. And his reaction was, what do you need? What do, what do you want? Why? Why are you saying you love me?

[00:29:15] Everett: Well, that's something that. I always told my two young sons, and it's funny, even at high school, we were at a high school football game one time and my son is a senior in high school and we're sitting in the bleachers. In front of all of his friends, in front of everybody, and he comes up and gives me a big hug and, says, I love you.

[00:29:38] Everett: And I'm like, wow. We're in the middle of the bleachers. And my 18 year old son, which is usually the most awkward age to give your dad a hug, comes and says, I love you and gives me a big hug. I was, you talked about doing breath exercises and mindfulness. I was doing yoga in my. bedroom the other day and my 21 year old knocks on the door.

[00:30:00] Everett: He is like, Hey, what are you doing? I'm like, oh, I started doing yoga. I went to a massage therapist and he said, you know, my muscles really tight and I should probably, do some yoga. And he's like, oh, well I'll get down and do it with you. And you're a two grown ass men, you know. On the floor doing yoga and I, I did not expect him to actually down yoga.

[00:30:31] Hector: At least supportive.

[00:30:32] Everett: Yeah, he was supportive. He was like, okay, I'm gonna do this with my dad, and then ask him if he went to McDonald's afterwards. So yeah, I think it is changing. I think the younger generation is a more expressive generation. I think they, whether you're men or women, At least all three of my kids, they tell me what they want.

[00:30:50] Everett: I know some of the younger employees that I supervise and manager, that I manage, I mean, I'm kind of amazed at some of the things they ask for. I'm like, wow, I would not have asked for that at 27 years old. I would've been too afraid to even approach my boss with, you know, Hey, I deserve a raise or, I think I should be getting more time off. I mean, I grew up in the age where, you know, your benefits were your benefits and your salary was your salary. I didn't even know you could ask for more. And, I think every generation pays the way for the next generation.

[00:31:27] Everett: And I'd like to say, I'm a Gen Xer. The things that we did and the things that we fought for, Younger generations are benefiting from, those policies and practices. Yay. That's awesome. I think it's great. Younger generations are

[00:31:45] Everett: before helped pay

[00:31:48] Everett: for them.

[00:31:49] Hector: yeah, it's great that, you have guys like your sons that are exposed to this, that I, think will be ahead of the curve in their own right. as you were. And, I think that that's fantastic. Is there anything else that you think would be. Helpful with regards to today's discussion are there any other lessons or stories or pitfalls or anything that you think might be helpful

[00:32:11] Hector: There's someone who's, I think like me, who, I knew I was never like a macho man. In fact, I really don't do well in, Agro alpha environments. I've never thrived in there, but I've also been challenged by, well, does that mean I'm not a man?

[00:32:28] Everett: I've come to the answer that, okay, no does not mean that, but what I am putting together now is, well, what is the. Ideal if it's not macho man, Randy Savage. If it's not Hulk Hogan, if it's not, James Bond, if it's not, then, and I think we get to create our own version, but, for a guy who's, trying to figure out what their own version of masculinity looks like, what might you leave them with you know, I think it's just that, I think it's really to, to carve out your own idea of what masculinity means to you, and not necessarily discount that that's not what other men want. I mean, I can have a conversation with a pro football player just as well as I can have a conversation with, a doctor or, you know, whatever.

[00:33:15] Everett: in fact, some of my best guy friends are complete opposites of me. they're more like my wife. They're more the data. They're more the quiet introvert. And I think, when we look for friendships and when we look for, relationships and engaging other people, it's kind of those differences that help bring us together.

[00:33:33] Everett: I mean, I don't know about your group of guy friends, but. I'm sure there's diversity and difference between some of you all. I don't seek out, people who are exactly like me, to hang out with, so I think it's, almost like any other group of people we, we're not a homogenous group.

[00:33:52] Everett: men are not a homogenous group. there biology is about the only thing that defines, that piece, of us. And I think, leaning into whatever your version of masculinity is and, accepting those values and, the strengths that you bring to that position is really what's helpful.

[00:34:15] Everett: And, positive, strong story about that. I think sometimes the narrative that we tell ourselves is more important than what. everybody else is, telling us, and sometimes we're our worst enemy. I would just, tell other men, if you have a story or narrative about yourself, make it positive.

[00:34:34] Everett: make yourself the hero of your story. that's the only way you're gonna lean into whatever your definition of masculinity is.

[00:34:41] Hector: Everett, Dr. E, where can people get connected more with you or if they wanna, follow up and kind of go deeper in your world?

[00:34:47] Everett: I'm on LinkedIn. That's probably the best way, to connect with me and, probably only way I got off of a lot of social media. I was overwhelmed with it. I was going down rabbit holes on Facebook. Book that I should not, and I figured, oh my gosh, I could have spent this two hours reading a book or, hanging out with my son at McDonald's or doing yoga.

[00:35:07] Everett: why would I sit here on Facebook? So LinkedIn is,

[00:35:14] Hector: I love it. Yeah, go back and forth with these apps. guys, thank you so much for being here today. I appreciate that. If you guys enjoyed today's episode, please leave a rating or review wherever you listen to your podcast. If there is another guy or gal or whoever is out there on their own masculinity journey.

[00:35:30] Hector: And you think this would be helpful, please share this with them. And I'd encourage you to take one thing from today's conversation. Just find one thing and see if you can implement it. Take action on it, and let us know how it goes. Thanks as always for being part of the tribe.

[00:35:42] Hector: We'll see on the next one later, y'all.