Embracing Hope and Empathy in a Divided World with Matt Drinkhahn

[00:00:00] John: And with that intro,

[00:00:01] John: I would love to introduce my new friend and someone with an amazing sweatshirt and an amazing background I'm looking at right now in the livestream. Mr. Matt Houle. Matt, welcome my

[00:00:12] John: friend.

[00:00:13] Mark: Thank you for having me. It's always interesting to be on this side of, the recording. Usually I'm on your side.

[00:00:18] John: Yeah, is fascinating. In fact, we were just recounting uh, all the challenges the podcasters might face. And since we're gonna start with challenges, I'd love to just start off with challenge. What might be something challenging or interesting that you've experienced as a podcaster since you've started your podcast?

[00:00:33] Mark: in the way of your podcast name, The Eternal Optimist. This is like a good thing, but also a super big challenge for someone like me. So at one point in this new journey of podcasting, I was about 16 weeks ahead, so I had about 16 recordings ready to go. And so the biggest challenge for me was, I felt so bad telling my guests that like, I know we're recording this now in June, but your episode's not coming out until October.

[00:01:00] Mark: that was like such a weird burden to have, right? Because you're like, that's a good thing. you're far ahead, you have everything done. But for me, that was the most stressful part. And I actually like paused my recordings because I was like panicking. Nobody cared by the way.

[00:01:15] John: Yeah. A lot of the stuff that might a fear or stress is all stuff in our heads. I can relate to that. what just happened a few minutes ago, the internet basically went down. I couldn't see the guest, couldn't hear him anymore. We're 32 minutes into recording and blank, and here I am talking to this Olympic gold medalist Laura Wilkinson, you know, is her name, and.

[00:01:33] John: Her episode may or may not have been released yet based on when we get a chance to do it again. But, uh, yeah, that was, something that kind of got my own head for a minute there. I was super frustrated about it and hey, she said to me, Matt, control the controllables. Everything else. take a deep breath.

[00:01:48] John: And then she sent me a funny gift through text and take a deep breath. thank you for sharing your podcast challenge. I'd love to go into a deeper challenge though, than the simplicities of us running podcasts. And we'll get back to your podcast, The Life Shift Podcast here in a little while.

[00:02:02] John: But before we do, I'd love to start as early as you'd like to in care to in your life with something that was hard for. then let's move forward as we uh, you know, share exactly how you got through it and where you've come to.

[00:02:15] Mark: and I think you kind of tied both ends cuz the life shift is kind of the result. Of the challenges that I face. So when I was eight years old, my parents were divorced. My mom was going on a trip with her boyfriend, a motorcycle trip across the country. It was their second time going, little eight year old.

[00:02:31] Mark: Matt was like, had some weird feeling like, Don't go, you shouldn't go. She went in anyway, right? Cuz I was eight, like who's gonna listen to an eight year old? And in that trip they had a single vehicle accident and they both died on the motorcycle. so that was like really the moment in my life in which out of my control, everything changed.

[00:02:50] Mark: tying it to the Life Shift podcast, if you can think back, that was something in my life in which one day everything was a certain way. And then the next day my life was flipped upside down, kicked around completely different and. It took a long time to be grateful for that, but now as this version of me 33 years later, I'm grateful for the experiences that I've had because of that.

[00:03:16] Mark: I think I'm a more formed human than I would've been had I not faced something like that as a child. Not to say it was easy. There were lots of years of hardness. Because of that moment in my life, I now get to do these things on my podcast that fill my cup 100%.

[00:03:35] John: I'm not even, I mean, first I feel this great sense of empathy. I'm near tears, literally just hearing about that as an eight year old, I can't imagine. My kids now seven and, five and four, they lost one of us. My parents, I lost my dad at 29 um, and he was in his fifties, 59, almost 59.

[00:03:55] John: yeah, that was the worst day of my life when that happened. At that time. Nearly 29 years old, and it was still the worst day. But I've since been able to process, and now I'm grateful for some of the things that have happened as a result and who I've become as a result.

[00:04:07] John: Uh, But I, that wasn't eight it feels even heavier and even more challenging. what was it like for you, immediately after that, Matt, and kind of moving forward a little bit in your life into the future from eight moving.

[00:04:18] Mark: Yeah, so my parents were, were separated and or divorced, and my dad lived in Georgia and I lived in Massachusetts. So. one, I've just lost a parent, but now I have to instantly move at the beginning of a school year to a new state, Everything's new. My dad was, a part-time parent at that time because he lived so far away, right?

[00:04:37] Mark: So I lived with my mom, and so life was very weird because at eight years old you don't understand stand. you don't understand the, finality of it and that just doesn't make sense. And plus this was like late eighties, early nineties. And I wanna say that society at that time did not talk mental health did not talk as much recovery from something like that, right?

[00:05:01] Mark: It was more. You're fine. Look at all the good things that are happening. And I think, my whole family to that, that rule of, let's just not talk about it. Like, just move forward. It's fine. And so it took about eight years for me to, until I like exploded basically in the sense that when I was 16, a writing assignment in high school was the trigger.

[00:05:23] Mark: For me to finally start thinking about it, breathing through it, you know, like just acknowledging it that it was real. It existed eight years ago, she died and she's not coming back eight years it took, which is crazy to look back on, right? Like that's a long time To not grieve, to not do anything. But I say that because now when I do this podcast and I talk to people, I talk to people about hard moments in their lives, a a pivotal moment like my mom dying and.

[00:05:49] Mark: It's so great to talk to people that are actually just sharing and saying it, and then, you know, probably from your podcast you get these messages behind the scenes saying, Thank you for sharing that story, or Thank you for just saying it out loud for saying those things because I didn't know I needed to hear it, but this is how it's helped me.

[00:06:09] Mark: so I'm grateful for that struggle. it took me like 20 years to fully grieve. I mean, look what I get out of it. I'm thankful for it.

[00:06:16] John: Well that's an amazing perspective now to be able to have that gratitude for your mother, for the experience that this at the time, worst thing ever, but now able to be grateful for who you've become and how you can impact others. And that's what we're all about here at our show.

[00:06:30] Mark: It's interesting too because, my dad's mother took over kind of that mother role and I got really close to her. And so when you told me that, you know, your father died when you were close to 30. my grandmother passed when I was 34. And I, sat by her side for the last five days of her life and like watched her die.

[00:06:46] Mark: Because I knew how to grieve now because I did it wrong for so long with my mom that I almost felt like, I'm the champion of grief at this moment. And that's like not something to like be proud of, but I was weirdly proud of the fact that I was mature enough to process all the things that I couldn't do as a kid.

[00:07:05] Mark: And so I relate to, I think it's harder to lose someone. You know your father at that age than it is for, in a different way than it is for an eight year old to lose their parent, if that makes sense.

[00:07:16] John: Well, unique perspective. Yeah for sure, maybe you don't know how to do it or how to grieve or how to process it. At eight and certainly at, 29, I was at a place where I, felt it but I still wasn't able to process it even at that age. Effectively my emotional intelligence, I was good at selling.

[00:07:31] John: I was good in business. I was not good at processing emotions. And I wasn't even able to give the dad's eulogy at his funeral. I mean, I wasn't even able to speak. I, I was still trying to grasp how to process it. I was so angry and still upset at that time. Not at him at something else, but it, was hard to process and not until I'd say well into my late thirties and early forties and in 45 now, was able to really start to process it.

[00:07:56] John: It. Having children where before I was this very manly man that feelings. But now literally, if the wind blows in this direction and it's around my kids, I mean, I can start getting emotional in any moment.

[00:08:09] John: You know, life has had a big shift for me as a result of being a family man now. So now I'm able to process it and be grateful for it. So I'd say that the big life shift, pivotal moment for me around having children that was uh, something that triggered, I've got to be able to move forward, gotta be able to learn how to process this.

[00:08:27] John: It was a real motivator. And um, it's changed. Everything's evolved since then in a positive.

[00:08:33] Mark: Isn't it nice to be a fully formed human with emotions?

[00:08:36] John: And before maybe not having the self-awareness to realize I wasn't fully formed, feeling that I was, that I can, be this confident person, I can make all this money, I can do all these things that might show I'm quote, fully formed. And in the inside I'm still learning how to process emotion and how many people out there are older.

[00:08:55] John: Than 18, older than, teenage years that did not learn, or still have not learned or not learned how to figure out how to process

[00:09:02] Mark: I think we get stuck in this feeling like this performative version of ourselves, right? That society tells us we have to be a certain way and therefore we can't. And I think that's why it took me forever to grieve my mother. I think that's why it took me 30 plus years to get to this space where I can do a podcast about something she's the reason, like her dying is the reason this podcast exists and is now helping other people, you know?

[00:09:29] Mark: But I wonder what life would've been like at eight if therapy was a thing. It wasn't just like a school counselor, It wasn't, you know, like actual grief therapy. To get a child through this, and this is maybe a little off tangent, but recently when I started the podcast I had a conversation with another friend of mine whose mother died when he was younger.

[00:09:49] Mark: And in that process I was looking up stuff and there's a New York Times article that has a video from somewhere in Europe. I don't remember what country, but there's a grief camp for children. And it sounds so morbid, Because it's a bunch of these kids coming together for like a summer camp experience, but you're only allowed if you have basically a dead parent.

[00:10:09] Mark: And me watching it as this version of me, I cried through the entire thing because I was like, imagine if there was this space for eight year old Matt to go to where everyone understood we were all in the same. Like, you just feel like you're so alone. You're like the only person that's ever lost a parent when you're not.

[00:10:28] Mark: But there's no space for it. I hope, I hope this is a thing. I hope people talk about it

[00:10:33] John: Well, if anything comes from our discussion today, and if someone hears this and they're able to hear that, two grown men Who maybe claim to be fully formed, the jury's out on that uh, but two grown men can talk about grief or talk about losing parents or talk about those pivotal moments that are challenging in life.

[00:10:50] John: It is okay to talk about it with someone. It is Okay to bring it to us and talk about, talk about someone and help, heal and help move. not past it so that you forget it, but past it or through it so that it can serve you to help you form or help you impact others.

[00:11:09] John: How does that

[00:11:09] John: connect with you?

[00:11:10] Mark: my best advice that I give people is feel however you're feeling. And that's okay. Right. I think we're so conditioned to be like, if it's a sad moment, you have to be sad. You cannot have a good day. everything's great in your life. Why are you sad? And it's like, Because I'm a human and that's okay. As long as you're not stuck in a particular space, be okay with however you're feeling. And that's always cuz no one wants to hear advice when someone dies or something bad happens, like you don't really want that. So if someone is like looking for an answer, I just tell them that, you know, just feel however you're feeling and that is okay.

[00:11:48] John: Hmm.

[00:11:49] Mark: know? And especially men, I mean, we don't talk about it.

[00:11:52] John: I agree, and this is something my wife says to me Julie is, I would say she's a feeler a very high empathy and a pleaser, and very, very aware the disposition of everybody in the room wants everyone to be good be okay. And I'm able to kind of move through things pretty quickly and not feel it.

[00:12:12] John: But once she. Taught me and guided me to a place where I was able to just pause, breathe, and really feel the feelings. It opens up this whole new world that I wasn't even aware existed. I thought that the way that I thought about things was the way that. It should be done. That we don't have to feel all of these negative or hard emotions.

[00:12:35] John: And in reality, have this self defense mechanism I built up that shielded me from feeling it, cuz that's what I learned growing up. But now feeling the feelings is, is amazing. I mean it do I want to intentionally feel something that's painful nowadays? I don't see that it's bad. I don't, I won't label it as that.

[00:12:52] John: I label it as the full spectrum of emotions and I get to feel all of them. And that is this entire joyous living experience. It's like that movie um, Disney movie. Inside Out. That's it. That's it. That movie Major Breakthrough, when I watched that movie in

[00:13:09] Mark: for adults and for children. I

[00:13:11] Mark: think it's important.

[00:13:12] Mark: you know, I, I'm happy that in 2022 we're closer, right? I think society is closer to. People being able and feeling comfortable to feel however they feel. I am someone that naturally gravitates towards something that's going to make me cry. I don't know How many men do you talk to that say that?

[00:13:30] Mark: But something about it makes me connect to that human experience, and it all goes back to what you're doing on your podcast. I listen to your episodes and you can hear. That you genuinely care about what your guests are saying. And it's the same thing, like when I watch something sad, I'm like, I'm in it.

[00:13:47] Mark: I feel that emotion and I didn't for so long that maybe that's why I crave it. But

[00:13:53] Mark: I do gravitate towards that more than comedy. Who doesn't wanna laugh? Me?

[00:13:57] John: so the interesting thought about feeling the emotion or feeling something that, that caused you to cry. I, feel that there are several episodes that we've had on our show that either, I've been in tears or I've been in close to tears, that when the episode was done, I actually felt this cathartic moment.

[00:14:14] John: I. Good. it felt like some energy, kinda like an endorphin, like I had just gone off the Peloton. I felt really good about it. I remember when I was talking to Jason Brasad about our kids, or when I was listening to Mitsy Purdue talk about human trafficking and Ukraine, I mean, just these, stories are just tearing me up or they're just causing me to feel in such a way.

[00:14:33] John: But every time I can feel the tear welling up, it has been something that. Inspired me or give me a, a feeling at the end that actually I, loved. Does that connect

[00:14:43] John: with you

[00:14:44] Mark: 100%. And I will say it's, what I seek out, I try to find television shows, movies that are gonna move me, that are going to make me feel a certain way, and having experience watching my grandmother pass of cancer in a hospice house.

[00:15:01] Mark: What I found interesting to myself is watching films that try to depict those moments, and there are very few movies or TV shows or whatever there may be that accurately show what that experience is like, or at least from my perspective and what I saw. But when I found one, like I was a puddle. But like you said, after the fact, I felt.

[00:15:24] Mark: Lighter I felt, that runner's high that you describe, or the Peloton high, whatever that may be. I don't know if they sponsor you,

[00:15:31] John: No . have, they don't have to pay me or sponsor me at all. I, I love using the

[00:15:34] John: Peloton, But this is not sponsored by Peloton. But it is a release.

[00:15:38] Mark: Yeah.

[00:15:39] John: It is a release. And some might get it from a sport, some might get it from a good crime, but it is a way to You said feel lighter.

[00:15:45] John: Yeah. I, think feel lighter, feel better, feel something. Right. I wonder then since you gravitate towards that cause you to

[00:15:51] John: feel. I wonder, does achievement of a or of winning something or a stack ranking, does any of that connect with you in any way of achievement versus looking for something to feel with a show?

[00:16:04] John: How does that connect with you, Matt?

[00:16:05] Mark: That's a really interesting question because very recently actually, I've never celebrated a win, and maybe I have, but anything big or monumental, I always felt like. I just had to do the next thing that was expected of me. And I think that connects to, having my mom die as a kid.

[00:16:26] Mark: I think it all comes back to that because people expect you to be okay and they're always checking in, Are you okay? Oh, is he achieving? Like if I was to do poorly in school, then it was because my mom died, you know? And not just because I was a bad student, right? and so mentally, I. I was leading my life until my thirties as that eight year old, he was making the decisions.

[00:16:47] Mark: So it was always a check mark. So, like I graduated high school top 10, Oh, I think I was 11, but I graduated high school fairly high outta 600 students. I didn't celebrate that. it was, why wasn't it higher, And then, graduate college, and then get my MBA in 10.

[00:17:05] Mark: Check mark. It wasn't like these celebrations so I don't connect those, but recently I'm forcing myself until it gets comfortable to celebrate or acknowledge or like, Oh yeah, I did that.

[00:17:17] John: Mm. I wonder if you've never celebrated a win but you are attempting to, you're attempting to force yourself to do that now. I wonder what might be a win that you've had recently that you

[00:17:29] John: might be able to

[00:17:30] Mark: Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, honestly the pandemic feels like it had the start of my win season for me in the areas that felt right, that felt good. That felt like something that a quote unquote brag about.

[00:17:45] Mark: So, you know, during the pandemic I was pretty bored and so I opted to get another master's degree.

[00:17:50] Mark: And so going through that as a 40 year old was a little bit different than it was when I was 22 going through my mba. And so I was going into it to actually learn this time, whereas last time it was a check mark, right? I just explained that So, The goal was to learn more and to achieve things and do as great as I could.

[00:18:12] Mark: So I finished that in August this year, 2022 and 4.0, graduated with Distinction. I'm celebrating that now. During the pandemic, I taught myself how to launch, on Amazon, and I celebrate every time I open that little window and I made a dollar. those are the little wins.

[00:18:29] Mark: Those are the fun things. But now the thing that's filling my cup is the Life Shift podcast and not the listeners. Or the numbers or the vanity metrics that everyone likes to talk about. Those are fun and those are the things that I can, you know, publicly share. But it's the reviews or it's the people behind the scenes that are like, like I had an episode where someone was talking about, infertility and their journey to becoming a.

[00:18:55] Mark: And it's not something that enough people are talking about, just like publicly open. Like it, is, it's something that people go through I got these messages behind the scenes, like, thank you for the care that you showed in that conversation with your guest. Because we needed to hear it right now. I needed to know I wasn't alone. Those are the wins that I celebrate now, and those are maybe not as public, but it's the ones that keep me going.

[00:19:18] John: Oh, thank you. you never know when you run a podcast, What you're gonna hear, who you're gonna meet. And I love our conversation because I'm learning so much from a different lens because we're here today to, help impact others and to share the story. But we have such a different perspective.

[00:19:34] John: We both came to gratitude as central themes in our life, but the way that we got there and the way that we have viewed achievement and wins has been completely different over our life. I'm just grateful to be able to hear such a different perspective. And then turn some of the challenges into things you're grateful for.

[00:19:49] John: So we have that in common, but the way we got there was different. And I, appreciate you for that,

[00:19:53] John: Matt.

[00:19:54] Mark: these conversations, it's the same. I'm sure. I have the same conversations with people and I'm just like, Thank you for just being a human and for sharing your version of life, we're all on this earth kind of trying to do the same thing successfully, but we all do it so differently.

[00:20:10] John: Absolutely.

[00:20:12] John: It makes me wonder, and I don't even know if this question will connect with you, if I ask you, is there something in your world that you're excited about learning next? Does that question have any meaning to you?

[00:20:26] Mark: it's all around podcasting. Honestly, podcasting came to

[00:20:29] Mark: me, so my journey to this podcast. Looking back, once I hit that, I told you when I was 16, I kind of had that breakdown. It was an assignment I had to write about my mom. And from that moment I started writing, I started sharing things that actually people told me not to share because it's, those are feelings.

[00:20:48] Mark: You shouldn't be sharing those feelings. People don't have bad feelings or sad feelings or depression or any of these things. And so I was trying to find an outlet. All along. And then I started doing digital art on my iPad. Another, trying to find an outlet, trying to find something that would fill whatever that gap was of in this, grief journey.

[00:21:09] Mark: this long, long journey from when my mom died, and so during this master's degree, I took a class called The Art of Podcasting, mainly because it was an elective that scared. Because I was like, What am I gonna do? Who wants to hear me? so we didn't have to launch a podcast, we just had to record two interviews, kind of like pretending we were gonna do a podcast.

[00:21:27] Mark: And I was like, You know what? This is calling to me. I'm always curious how one. Thing in someone's life, whether that it's intentional or an external force has changed something. I wanna have conversations about that. I don't want it to be a grief podcast because that's depressing, right? But I want to talk about these moments that have changed people's lives forever, and who knew that that one class would launch this podcast.

[00:21:53] Mark: That it's literally the only thing I wanna do all day long. I have a real job. I wanna do this. And so to answer your question in a really long way, sorry about that. I wanna learn more about the podcasting space. I wanna help others feel like this, like how I feel when I'm done recording.

[00:22:10] Mark: I mean, I do everything, so I do the editing and I do the marketing and all that stuff, and I would happily give some of that away if once I get a little bit more money to do that. But I would love to help others. Feel like I feel this

[00:22:23] Mark: microphone.

[00:22:24] John: mm.

[00:22:25] Mark: So yes, if you

[00:22:26] Mark: want to teach me,

[00:22:26] John: So you feel a certain way and you would like to help others feel that way.

[00:22:32] John: What the way you feel when you're sharing a story, when you're, you're helping them to share their story, to make things Okay. In the world. That's beautiful and thank you for sharing that. you said the word curious two times in our discussion so far, and I, I wonder what part curiosity or beginner's mindset or learning, I wonder, has that always been a central theme since you were 16?

[00:22:52] John: Or how does that connect with you? Curiosity.

[00:22:55] Mark: You know what's funny is yesterday I was talking to a friend and she said to me, I love that you are not afraid to try something that you have absolutely no idea how to do. Just because it feels right. And so I think without the intention of being curious about a new topic, I kind of dive right in. Like weirdly, a year ago, I was like, I think I wanna teach myself how to.

[00:23:19] Mark: I don't know why. I just wanna teach myself how to knit. So I taught myself how to knit. so here I am this 40 year old sitting on a couch with some knitting needles and have no clue what I'm doing. But I was able to like knit a hat and a scarf and like there was no reason behind it. But I was curious like, can I do this?

[00:23:37] Mark: It seems like I can, I don't know if I can right

[00:23:39] John: Wow.

[00:23:40] Mark: I

[00:23:41] Mark: think I'm

[00:23:41] Mark: curious.

[00:23:42] John: I thought you were gonna say that you knitted the right now.

[00:23:45] John: Well, so brilliant. So curiosity towards, sharing the feeling towards helping others to feel towards helping others to feel that it's okay. It's all right to, talk about some of. Taboo subjects or these challenging things I appreciate that you have that perspective and, and curiosity and gratitude or central themes.

[00:24:03] John: I'm curious what else might be hard for you right now? Any other challenges that you're approaching with curiosity and gratitude? Matt?

[00:24:10] Mark: Yes. I mean, everything's hard. I feel like life is hard. I don't think that, you know, I feel like. It's everyday struggle to not be performative, to not try to align with what we've been taught society wants us to be. I think that's a constant struggle, and this is gonna sound weird and maybe I'm using the wrong word, but I think once I started being a little bit more selfish about what I wanted to get out of life and the experiences that I had, It actually like opened the door to, create the things that also happened to help other people, or just bring other people joy.

[00:24:49] Mark: But it was really leaning into like, I don't care what other, knitting, I proudly showed that off. I was like, Look, I made a scarf. That's pretty cool. But like, I feel like society would say, men don't. That's not a thing. I think once I was just like, No, I wanna learn that.

[00:25:04] Mark: I think that might be cool. So I think once I started to be a little bit more selfish about the things that, bring me joy and not what I thought the world wanted me to do to be successful, I think

[00:25:13] Mark: it's helped me with those challenges. Just like not succumbing to what I felt society wants me to be or do.

[00:25:21] John: I love the space we're in right now. Essential theme. I, feel to a lot of people being able to accept themselves and being able to move forward is the fear of other people's opinions or the fear of society's judgment. And you have said, you know, f that I'm gonna be a little selfish here, and I'm gonna learn and lean into how not to care what others think.

[00:25:39] John: And I would applaud you for that. Man. I wouldn't say that's, selfish. If selfish is term to be a. Term. I think that's selfish for the good. I mean, I believe wholeheartedly that we have got to it is it is our imperative that if we wanna have the best impact we possibly might on ourselves, on our families, on communities, on the world.

[00:25:58] John: Then to use your term selfish in the way you used it, we've gotta be a little bit selfish. You've gotta put our own oxygen mask on first, and we've gotta be in a place where we are okay, where we are good, where we are working on ourselves, and when we're in that spot, then we're able to give the best we can to others.

[00:26:13] John: And so many people don't do that because they're shackled by other people's opinions. And you are learning. And do you have a master's degree or a PhD in this yet? I don't know. But you are doing a heck of a good job by knitting, you probably uh, can teach the class. if you're able to knit and share it out loud and not feel scored or judgment I feel you're, so far on the journey.

[00:26:33] John: How, how far are you on this journey of Caring what others think you.

[00:26:38] Mark: probably the day after or the day that my grandmother died, I think that's when it started. So 2015, she, I said she died in a hospice house and beautiful place. But when she was having her final lucid moments, she told us, those of us around her, she said, I wish I hadn't worried so much because all that matters is love.

[00:26:57] Mark: In the end. It sticks with me because my entire life, up to that point, I worried about the dumbest things and the things that didn't matter, and I worried about what so and so thought. Like they're not even thinking about me. Like they don't even care. Right? You know? Like why am I worrying about that? And so from that moment on, I've tried to do my best to limit what other people think of me because I can't control that.

[00:27:22] Mark: And why should.

[00:27:24] John: Why should you? Yeah, you might have just triggered something, I might go off on a tangent here. I love what you just said. It reminds me when I read um, my wife gave me on Christmas 2016, she gave me uh, Tim Ferris's book Tools Titans, and I remember reading that the very first thing in the entire book, if I recall, was uh, a link to a TED Talk by bj.

[00:27:42] John: And he led a hospice organization and he'd led uh, over a thousand people into death gracefully. And many of them, he, talked to all of them about this subject of what matters most in your life. And near the end, the overwhelming majority of them said the same things. Just like what your grandma said is that I worried too much.

[00:28:00] John: I work too much. Love is what matters. Relationships, people that, that are important to me matter. Others' opinions shouldn't have mattered as much. And just to hear you share that your real life testimony that your grandmother said that to you that she wished she hadn't worried so much that is permission to any listener out there who's hearing that, feeling that and feeling that there's this, incongruency out.

[00:28:20] John: That what society says to do, to think, to feel how you should act or look or be and you want to be this glorious you or this amazing individual. You I feel that you have permission, not that you need it from us but you have permission be that person. And if you, Near the end of, of lives of old age, then many, many people will say this, they worried too much, they work too much, and this is what really matters.

[00:28:45] John: think we're onto something here.

[00:28:46] Mark: just, I feel like we have been conditioned, at least our generation, we were very much conditioned to worry about that. To worry about your status, to worry about, I mean, I talk to people on my podcast about this all the time of like, we were just like, you had to graduate high school and then you had to get a job, then you had to get promoted, then you had to get married.

[00:29:04] Mark: Then you had to have kids, and then you have, you know, like, it was all just like a checklist of things. And so within that checklist, you have to worry, am I doing what I should be doing at this point? You know, I'm 23 now. Should I? what should be in my bank account? what should my status in life be?

[00:29:20] Mark: And I think the newer generations are kind of bucking the system a little bit, which is great in multiple ways, in mental health, for sure.

[00:29:28] Mark: In the rules of when someone should start a family. Like, I mean, people are waiting till their thirties to start a family, till their forties to start a family.

[00:29:38] Mark: Because they have other, prior, they wanna travel. They want to, you know, the word selfish. They want to do the things that fill them up before they get to that. And so I think the, the current generations are more progressive in that sense, and that gives me hope.

[00:29:54] John: it does give me hope, but I wanna go back to something you said, our generation, and just to clarify for the listeners when we talk about our generation Matt and I are born roughly the same time. I'm, I'm older than him by a few years. But when you say our generation, what might be a couple of defining Characteristics of our generation.

[00:30:10] John: And you can be serious with your answer or you can, you know, go funny in pop culture. But what might be a couple things you might

[00:30:16] John: with our

[00:30:16] Mark: Well, I think our generation are like the adapters, right? We've had to kind of go with what the world is telling us to do in the sense of, think of technology, right? Like when you and I were born, we had corded house phones. And then got like these really cool cordless phones, right? that went 10 feet away from the wall.

[00:30:35] Mark: And then we had this dial up internet thing that you do and like you could send an email and go to like a newsletter

[00:30:43] John: That's right.

[00:30:43] Mark: shop, 1995

[00:30:45] John: I remember

[00:30:45] Mark: And then all of a sudden we had like CDs and MP3s and high speed internet and laptops and all this crazy stuff.

[00:30:55] Mark: the Walkman first, then we had the Discman that could go underwater.

[00:30:59] Mark: And I was like, Why can this go in the pool? And I never tried it, but I had one. I wasn't brave enough, but I'm like, Where do I need to take this? But you know, and now we're in like cell phones so I feel like our generation really experienced life where you played outside until it got dark and then you had come back.

[00:31:16] Mark: Right when the street lights came on and you had your family dinner and everyone sat around the table and I think, you know, we progressed to where we are now, which, there are good things and there are, there are a lot of things that distract us from maybe, what might be great and what's going on.

[00:31:32] John: Agree. I paused for a moment because all of the the things that might distract me just got home from school the exact same moment. Well, so one thing uh, that I would hit on for our generation, we were the generation of I'd say the sitcom.

[00:31:45] John: We had growing pains. Uh, You know, we

[00:31:47] John: had the, T G I F. We had uh, Family Matters with uh, Urkel. We had uh, Bob

[00:31:54] Mark: Yeah. Full house.

[00:31:55] John: died. Unfortu.

[00:31:56] John: Bull House was, one saved by the Bell? Yeah. Slater. Yeah. My wife

[00:32:00] John: still has a crush. I, in fact, let's not talk about that anymore.

[00:32:03] Mark: eyes. I

[00:32:03] John: had, uh, we, we, we had GI Joe and Heman were like the very uh, uh, big toys at the time when I was

[00:32:09] Mark: Wheels

[00:32:09] John: up.

[00:32:09] John: Um, oh yeah, we

[00:32:12] Mark: machines,

[00:32:13] John: micro machines,

[00:32:14] John: and muscle figures. So we had all those. Then we had Atari and Nintendo eventually

[00:32:18] John: came

[00:32:19] Mark: Where you had to wait in line like the newest release

[00:32:23] John: yeah, and those things were 30 to $49 each at toys or us when they were new. So different generation, but certainly we've learned to adapt.

[00:32:32] John: We're the, you know, as Christopher Lockhead would say, you know, a marketing, you know, guru that I pay attention to, he would say that . We are the digital natives. No, that's the people, this generation digital natives. We are digital analog. Meaning that we are used to those, those, those corded phones and more face to face in that way.

[00:32:51] John: And now everything's digital. Like they would rather nowadays experience something through the phone and through, the YouTube or through someone else's experience than no phone. Just, just be there

[00:33:01] Mark: do you feel though, I mean, to that point, do you feel that, that our generation is unique in the sense that. We were forced to adapt, but we easily adapted and we feel like we belong in both spaces in which, like, I'm thinking the generation before us, it was harder, right? Because more of their life was spent without.

[00:33:22] Mark: And so now it's like, you know, Do you remember programming your grandparents VCR for them because they didn't know how to use their new remote? Like that was like, that was our job as kids. ,

[00:33:33] John: That's. Well, it was some same way it is with my mother today where my job is to even help her with email or text messaging or using you know, this new thing called the iPhone. You know, when, and before you're right. They, they grew up in a, in a different era where it was more. Financially, conservative, so to speak where he didn't have as much.

[00:33:52] John: And now everyone kind of feels like they should have everything. At least that's kind of maybe the bubble that I live in or what I see in my experience. So yeah, there is different, but we do have an advantage. We do have an advantage and I choose to play that advantage the best of our ability because I did grow up with Naar in an Nintendo, so I was kind of in this place where, yeah,

[00:34:11] John: video games were

[00:34:12] John: coming

[00:34:13] Mark: Did have in television? you remember? In

[00:34:15] John: I never had one, but I'm aware of what it was. Yes, Email and cell phones came out when uh, I was in high school and or college and getting outta college and uh, learning to adapt. If there are people that are our age and our generation that are not adapting, then they're definitely being left behind.

[00:34:29] John: And those of us who adapt because we see it as a way to survive and thrive, then kudos to those who are doing that. But I think we have to figure out a way to not only survive, but we figure out a way to thrive. And the only way to do that is to adapt. Whatever's here

[00:34:45] John: now and

[00:34:45] Mark: Well, and to your point, to be curious be, I think we are generation of curiosity because we were kind of forced into it and now we're like, Okay, what's next? We're ready for it. Whereas other generations are either expecting it or they are rejecting it and we're kind of in this, in this space where we're curious about it.

[00:35:04] Mark: Like, Oh, okay. I've seen both ways.

[00:35:06] John: I made a note. I'm curious about something you said earlier when the pandemic began. you've mentioned that you had gone back and studied and you gotten your master's or your second, your next master's degree and. You mentioned coloring books and I'm curious about coloring books cuz I love to color every morning with the girls at the, at the breakfast table.

[00:35:23] John: So I'm wondering if you could share with us and we'll have all this in the show notes of course, and a link to, to get some of these. But I'm curious what inspired these coloring books and

[00:35:32] John: can you tell us

[00:35:32] Mark: Yeah, sure. So at the beginning of the pandemic, we were all panicked, right? We didn't know what was happening. So everyone was just in the state of. Like I'm locked at home for two weeks, right? We were gonna be locked up for two weeks and then everything was gonna be fine. So during those two weeks, I was like, people are are stressed, People are scared. so I put out a call on Instagram and Facebook probably just like with friends saying, Hey, I'm gonna do a, draw. What you, I may pay what you want, but I'm. Take your pet's drawings, like your dog or your cat, and I'm gonna put them in a funny cartoon. And so it started as that and then that over two months time.

[00:36:12] Mark: I did like hundreds of them for people, you know, like five bucks or something. and I gave the, and I would take out the background of whatever picture they gave me of their dog, and then I would put them in some weird thing, a lot of them driving cars, a lot of them flying space ships, a lot of them with rockets on their back or jumping into a pool.

[00:36:27] Mark: One had a hula hoop on, Just whatever I saw from that picture. And so, uh, so I was doing that and then I ended up raising money for this, dog shelter that my friend, uh, used to own during the pandemic to try to keep their lights on and stuff cuz they weren't able to, to do their business.

[00:36:43] Mark: So I did kind of like a fundraiser for that. And so then I had all these pictures, right? I had a million dogs in cars and a million dogs in space and cats in space and those kind of things. So I decided to turn those into coloring book. Pieces of art, basically. And so I, drew them and was like, Okay, now what do I do with that?

[00:37:00] Mark: And so I taught myself how to use InDesign and I put all those drawings from, I was doing 'em all on my iPad, so that makes it a lot easier. You can make a lot of mistakes when you draw on your iPad. I just learned InDesign and then taught myself how to use the Amazon.

[00:37:15] Mark: I think it's like a digital publishing.

[00:37:18] Mark: Program that they use. And so I don't have to carry any inventory, it's just, it's a print on demand. So if someone orders any, I think there's 10, 11. I don't know how many there are now, but there's a lot of them. And I, I put them on Amazon and the rest is history

[00:37:35] John: Youk awesome. I can't wait to get some today and have my kids coloring uh, you know, dogs and spaceships. Literally, that sound like one of the most fun things.

[00:37:44] Mark: Well, and the, fun part about it was that when these people would get the picture, they would smile, right? And that's what everyone needed like they just needed to see their dog wearing like a hula outfit with some crabs on the sand in Hawaii. Like that was one of the drawings. And she just burst out laughing and I was like, when, you know, like we all win.

[00:38:03] John: well this is amazing. I am so glad we're talking about your creative po your creative spot. When I went to your website, the first thing it says is, I'm a creator. And I'm wondering uh, what might you be creating next, Matt? uh, what's in store that we have to look forward to

[00:38:16] John: next?

[00:38:18] Mark: For me, I think my journey right now is gonna be with the Life Shift podcast. I'm launching season two and it's got, I have newer equipment and kind of better stuff going on as far as the technology goes, but the stories are still great. I wanna have these candid conversations like we're doing here about.

[00:38:38] Mark: Pivotal moments that have truly changed people's lives. I just had a really interesting one with a topic that like people just don't talk about enough. You know, kind of like that infertility example that I gave you. And so I think that's next for this, creator, this version of me that wants to create.

[00:38:55] Mark: Stories. I think it comes from being that eight year old Matt, like I needed to know that I wasn't alone, and if every episode that I create can hit the one set of ears or just the single ear that was the story that they needed to hear that day, then we win.

[00:39:10] John: Amazing. Well, Matt, how might our listeners find out more about you and what you're doing and get to your podcast? Tell us a little bit more about

[00:39:19] John: finding you

[00:39:20] John: please.

[00:39:20] Mark: Sure. So the podcast is on all the platforms. Uh, I do have a website, which is just www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com, so you can go there. That will just link you to all the places. I know some people like Spotify, some people like Apple, so you get your choices there. Uh, that's probably the best place to find out more about the podcast.

[00:39:39] Mark: I am on Instagram, which is just the Life Shift podcast. Handle on Instagram. I'm trying Twitter, but don't go there cuz I haven't done much yet. that's where the creative stuff is going. But I'm also on LinkedIn, so if anyone wants to connect or even wants to come tell their story, or if you have a story that you want to tell, come on over.

[00:39:55] John: Would absolutely love to. And uh, man, I, I genuinely appreciate what we've talked about today. I've lost track of time. I've been so stuck in the moment and I feel that's the sign of a good conversation is that I've learned and I feel connected to another human being who with a different lens than I have.

[00:40:10] John: And we're both curious and just thank you. I love you, appreciate you. And just, it's been very me. Spend this time with you. So thank you and look forward to uh, well being on your show and connecting with you.

[00:40:21] Mark: Yeah. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.