Visibility Revisited: Trends Shaping the Future of OT Cybersecurity

[00:00:00] LuRae: Welcome to our special rewind episode where we highlight our most forward thinking conversations about AI emerging technologies and the career landscape that's reshaping industrial cybersecurity.

[00:00:13] Dino: So we just came back from S four, another great conference down in Florida.

[00:00:17] Dino: And what I will tell you is that this is a conference that's going on for almost two decades now, and we've attended the last handful, but I'm starting to see more participation of roles. That are being defined. One, companies are starting to create OT cybersecurity positions within the organization, and it's a combination of both engineering and plant teams and the IT teams.

[00:00:41] Dino: And from our experience, those organizations that have a really tight relationship between IT and ot, they're aligned. They're very collaborative. They're transparent. They, they recognize each other's strengths and weaknesses and, and, and they leverage each other, and their partners are starting to build a coalition around how do we provide a cybersecurity strategy for our business?

[00:01:03] Dino: And so the S four does a really good job of one, bringing all of the technology partners in, the leaders, the visionaries, um, activities that are going on in this space, use case studies, what they're witnessing around the world. They have a lot of different events in there, but a lot of the, um, vendors that Gartner has published in their Magic Quadrant report, attend and participate at the S four conference.

[00:01:28] Craig: Well, a selfless plug for Dale and the team that sponsor promote and run the S four conference, Dale Peterson. They, that conference is designed for the OT ecosystem as it's evolving, as it's becoming more prevalent and the tools and technologies that are there for that. Organizational structure. It's designed to promote that was started out of the operational side and has continued to grow and evolve.

[00:02:01] Craig: It's a gathering place for that ecosystem to be at the cutting edge of what's there because it is such an important shift as organizations are trying to figure out how do I apply the same? Frameworks to secure and protect my OT infrastructure as I do my IT infrastructure. And there are differences in the way that it's applied, but the frameworks can be similar in the overarching piece of that, right.

[00:02:32] Dino: Also how it's funded, because on the other side a lot of it's CapEx.

[00:02:37] LuRae: If you'd like to sponsor an upcoming episode or be a guest on Industrial Cybersecurity Insider, reach out and let us know. Use the links in the show notes below, and connect with us to share your expertise with our growing community of industrial cybersecurity professionals.

[00:02:51] LuRae: Now back to the show.

[00:02:54] Dino: OT is obviously primarily opex, and it's not that OT doesn't have opex, they do, but in order to replace end of life and end of support machines on your plant floor for sure requires a capital project to do that. It's not like you're gonna get an OPEX project that's gonna come in and say, I'm gonna do recon control and upgrade PLCs, replace PLCs, upgrade my SCADA system.

[00:03:17] Dino: Replace my SCADA system, update my network. Replace my network. Those types of activities traditionally, and typically in the manufacturing world, on the plant floor, usually fall under the umbrella of, of a capital project. '

[00:03:31] Craig: cause of the lifecycle it takes to complete. It's to do it. The cost associated it.

[00:03:35] Craig: Yes. The way

[00:03:35] Dino: they depreciate it off with off their books, you know, the way the accounting rules handle. And that's why a lot of that stuff falls into that particular piece. So as an organization, you're gonna have to figure that out. That blend between CapEx and opex. Yep. Because when you do have capital projects, and it's something that you know from an IT leadership, they might wanna try to get your uh, arms around is what capital are we gonna spend in the next three to five years and what's it gonna be focused on?

[00:03:59] Dino: That's the time that you really wanna start talking about funding your OT cybersecurity technologies in a lot of ways, right? Yeah, because it's not. For most organizations, this is all net new stuff. And because there's a lot of unknowns within these manufacturing facilities. If you have a lot of plants, if you have, you know, a dozen or more plants, it's gonna take a bit to go through each one of them, right?

[00:04:21] Dino: Think globally, but you gotta act locally. What you apply to one plant and how you get to it is not necessarily gonna be the same at another plan. Right. On how you get to that information. Right. I mean, the technology would be the same and you can execute the same way. Meaning that how you get to that data.

[00:04:37] Dino: But some plants are, are, uh. More standardized than others. And some of 'em have a lot of d varying different types of automation technologies in there that they use. And uh, I know we've talked about that in in previous podcasts that we've done. Yeah. But it is unfamiliar and unknown. And so you have to have an organization that really knows how to go in there to do this work and not be disruptive.

[00:04:59] Dino: Right? You can't shut the plant down while it's working or you gotta work around their maintenance windows and schedules that they put out there that you have to come in behind and, and work while that plant. Down or portions of that plan are down to do some of this work. But just keep that in mind when you start pursuing OT cybersecurity strategies, and don't just pick a tool for threat hunting.

[00:05:20] Dino: If that's what your intent is from an IT perspective, if that's what you're looking for, you're kind of missing the boat a little bit, right? You really need to look at a technology that meets the majority of IT to meet the OT needs, right? Because you want them to see value and benefit of, if you have a cybersecurity OT IDS platform today, and if I'm working in your manufacturing plant.

[00:05:42] Dino: Installing a packaging line or doing some lifecycle replacement, I should be seeing information from your O-T-I-D-S platform to give me a better idea from an engineering perspective what I'm up against inside this plan. What are the weaknesses that are in here? What are the vulnerabilities that you have?

[00:05:58] Dino: What's the remote access look like? What kind of things should I be looking for and maybe implementing for you and designing into these machine centers is, uh, complete the project that we were brought in to do in regards to doing that refresh project.

[00:06:12] Craig: As organizations are going down that budget cycle, that approval process and your IT leadership is trying to incorporate the holistic enterprise wide security strategy to build into that CapEx portion for the OT security as well.

[00:06:33] Craig: And there may be a portion of it if you look at the way that it outsources and this SOC and their. Leverage partnerships with other third party providers. There may be a piece of that as you're trying to leverage. How do I support the operational side from a managed services of who's gonna interpret and understand all of this net new work that's coming in?

[00:06:58] Craig: Maybe there's a, a CapEx and an OPEX component. Within that as they're trying to understand what that looks like

[00:07:06] Dino: and set the ground rules too, right? And understand them. Because a lot of the OT guys are not big fans of cloud solutions, and they don't want 'em, they want things to be on prem because in their mind, if it's instrumental to running the plan.

[00:07:19] Dino: You lose your WAN or you lose a cloud piece or whatever. They don't want that to impact them. And the other thing is they don't want a lot of their information to be somewhere that it's not within their control. I would say from an IT leadership perspective, you need to start helping them understand it.

[00:07:36] Dino: One, all of these platforms that are out there, again, back to the Gartner Magic Quadrant report, all of them provide cloud-based solutions. Many of them provide on-prem. They all provide a cloud-based solution. So now's the time to talk to your OT leadership on the values and benefits of, of cloud and why it's relevant and it's important, and, uh, help them with that.

[00:07:58] Dino: Otherwise, they're gonna fall back to on-prem solutions. They're gonna tell the OEMs and system integrators that, that are coming in and driving some of these o OT cybersecurity initiatives within the plant, and they'll do it with or without you because they're gonna, their, their ecosystem is bringing this to the table.

[00:08:14] Dino: And starting to ask those questions. And a lot of times we catch it flatfooted because they either have a tool that doesn't necessarily fit round peg square hole, or they haven't been sharing, or they haven't been looking at it.

[00:08:28] Craig: Well, and as we look at the. The shifting landscape, the changes that are, that we as a country have seen in the last, I dunno, 60 days, let's call it with Doge and the implementation of new policies, procedures, guidance from the federal government.

[00:08:47] Craig: There's a chance that the accounting rules and regulations could potentially change and shift to be more favorable, and the tax regulations could shift and change to be more favorable for some of these projects. As we as an country are looking to secure and protect our. Critical infrastructure, our manufacturing, and how we can do that.

[00:09:09] Craig: So now may be the time to see what you can do as an organization to get some of these projects in there and really begin bolstering your cyber presence

[00:09:19] Dino: as we're seeing in, in our business and the things that are coming back on shore. Yes, well, sure. And so obviously those are gonna be capital expenditures and you're gonna start seeing, uh, some retooling.

[00:09:31] Dino: And you're, and when you start seeing that type of activity within the manufacturing arena, that's the time to start thinking about your cybersecurity strategy. If the money is being set up in a set aside for OT cybersecurity, and yeah, that's the time to do it, right? So whether there's tax incentives that are driving it, onshoring is driving it, retooling of your plants.

[00:09:52] Dino: You've got going on and you need to start, that's the time to start trying to figure out how do I set money aside in order to improve my cybersecurity posture within my manufacturing environment. Well, you gotta bring all the sides together. You gotta get, yeah, as I used to say, you gotta get all liars in the same world.

[00:10:07] Dino: Right? And I don't mean that in a bad way, but I'm basically saying those that are responsible, the key stakeholders, you the decision. Making teams need to be involved and engaged in this journey.

[00:10:19] Craig: Well, as manufacturing shifts, as more come back to the US that the onshoring, as you mentioned a while ago, look at AI and how it's playing a prevalent role that data centers.

[00:10:31] Craig: I saw statistic last week, early this week where 65%, I believe was the number of the AI data centers around the globe. Are focused in the us. Look at the production of those data centers and the power that's taking to do that. What's happening from a, an infrastructure and an onshoring. It's really becoming prevalent of we are trying to make sure that we're going down this road.

[00:11:00] Craig: Correctly, and we're seeing that in

[00:11:02] Dino: our business, right? Because we do a lot of data. Yeah, for sure. Work, right? When it comes to the power systems for, for you folks out there, you know, our organization focuses in the semiconductor business, but also in the data center business, meaning you've got building automation, building management systems, power management systems, and, and we're wrapping cyber security because those data center companies are going in with cybersecurity in mind.

[00:11:24] Dino: Absolutely you, they're not an afterthought for them. No. It's part, part of the project going forward with those guys.

[00:11:29] Craig: It can't be, if you manage a data center that's three or 400,000 square feet or whatever that is, if you lose your cooling or you lose the chilling in that data center, it's, you don't have a data center any longer power

[00:11:41] Dino: fluctuations, you know?

[00:11:43] Dino: You know? Yeah, for

[00:11:43] Craig: sure.

[00:11:45] Dino: So when you think about cybersecurity, you know a lot of folks, they think that term, which is an IT based role, but when you talk about ot, it's kind of a different animal if you will. So what are some of the challenges that you've witnessed working with these different clients and that dynamic between a group that doesn't always work well together, but they, they, they have different responsibilities.

[00:12:07] Dino: They have different roles. So what has been some of the challenges you've seen, if any, working in these different verticals that are pursuing improving their cybersecurity posture in their manufacturing environments?

[00:12:17] Emma: Yeah, I mean, I think you hit it on the nail. I think that is the exact challenges bringing all of these players to the table.

[00:12:23] Emma: You have your IT team who has been in charge of cybersecurity, but now you have this OT and plant floor technology that you need to protect. So you need your OT engineers that they know the asset, they know the processes, and you kind of have to have them working together. And sometimes that's. It's been a struggle with clients 'cause they've never worked together before.

[00:12:44] Emma: So bringing them together with, you also have your networking team and your stakeholders and it's definitely been a challenge with some clients or just in general. It probably is anywhere bringing everybody together to move these projects forward. So sometimes you'll have a little bit of a standstill while you're trying to figure out who's gonna be in charge of.

[00:13:02] Emma: Who's gonna take ownership of this task or this project?

[00:13:06] Dino: Yeah. And for those clients that are entering into this for the first time, right? As far as putting these types of technologies into their manufacturing environment, what have been some of the big, big moments that they've witnessed or aha moment?

[00:13:19] Dino: What have you seen as far as once these tools are embedded with the professionals know how to put 'em in there and use them? What kind of things have unfolded from there in that realm?

[00:13:29] Emma: Yeah, I mean, we see that they kind of don't know the internal issues they can be bringing to each other. We've seen it scanning the OT plant floor, and then that's causing disruption to the processes, and that's something they don't realize what's happening.

[00:13:47] Emma: But then the downtime is something we're able to use these tools for. Put it in, see that a scan was happening and now we're able to bring these two teams together, make an ex exclusion list or something like that. So now it's not gonna bring down their network or cause disruption to their process.

[00:14:05] Dino: Yeah, that's a great point.

[00:14:06] Dino: It gets back to roles and responsibilities and the unknown, right? I call it the round peg square hole. Sometimes it's behavior. The tools that they use, their practices are disruptive to that plant floor. And the plant floor had never really been able to put their finger on what caused that piece of, uh, equipment to quit working, you know, mysteriously, right?

[00:14:27] Dino: Because it can't find a mechanical issue. And it's like, what happened? Nobody really knows. They're just more interested in getting that machine back up and running versus going back through the forensics of why did I lose that machine? And it might have been because it was. Scanning the network. It ended up time.

[00:14:41] Emma: I'm sure with your years of experience in manufacturing, you probably had seen that and dealt with it firsthand

[00:14:47] Dino: and guarantee that it goes on right, especially if the two aren't working together and if they don't have the right technologies in place to demonstrate what that, that interaction looks like in that space.

[00:14:58] Dino: So I get it. So what kind of new emerging technologies are you seeing in this field? I know in four years it's, it's moved quite a bit, right? I mean, when you think about the features and functionalities and capabilities and some of the add-ons that these software companies have added, what are you seeing in that realm?

[00:15:13] Emma: Yeah, I'd say we're now seeing a lot more of these companies starting to integrate with a secure remote access. Either if it's gonna be in-house or they're using somebody else's, whether it's an OT built secure remote access to be able to, for these vendors or OEMs to remote into their equipment to perform maintenance or whatever it be.

[00:15:34] Emma: And also just the integrations in general to existing IT cybersecurity tools There. Starting to really widen and bring that OT into the whole portfolio of cybersecurity as a whole, which I think is good if we need it to be at the plate. Also, ot, it's good to have a little stake in it for both of 'em, that it kind of brings them together a little bit.

[00:15:57] Dino: Yeah. But it's in remote to your point. 'cause our experience is you usually find several different remote access technologies being used in a, in a single manufacturing facility. Right. It's just not one. Mm-hmm. It's used to several. Right. And that doesn't even count to folks that, that walk into the plant with their own equipment like an OEM or a system integrator who's working on a project or is there to do some type of support, warranty or maintenance work, and they just plug their machine into that control system network and.

[00:16:26] Dino: Nobody really knows what they're doing. They can't see 'em the, it is not monitoring that connectivity or that access. Yeah. So that is an interesting take on remote access in the environment, that the traditional way of getting in there is just not cut again in more and they need to kind of come at it more formalized and more standard approach.

[00:16:44] Dino: That's for sure. You talked about school in the very beginning. We recognize that a lot of the universities who do have technology, computer science, cybersecurity, engineering programs. They're not really focused on this OT cybersecurity stuff, I mean, right. I mean, is that something that you haven't seen while you were in school or other engineers that I know you worked with dozens of other engineering folks from a lot of different schools from all around the country.

[00:17:08] Dino: What are you hearing from them?

[00:17:10] Emma: Yeah, I mean, definitely when I was in school. All my colleagues. This wasn't something that was taught let alone. I didn't even know about it. So I have heard of, it's starting to become a program, I think at a few universities, which is good. I mean, I think this is something that's gonna be a huge field and we need to start educating because we need those professionals that have the experience and the knowledge to go out and work with these tools.

[00:17:33] Emma: You can't expect somebody just to come in day one and be able to manage one of these tools and everything. Be okay right away. So I think schools definitely need to start acknowledging this as the big field and career path that it's gonna be. And I think there's enough to learn that they could make a whole program.

[00:17:53] Emma: I. Also, I think schools probably need to be a little bit more hands-on. Like when I was in school, I had internships that I would do, and I think that's also a great experience for students and young professionals to go and learn about the industry in the field and have that hands-on experience because sometimes your coursework isn't exactly what your day to day is gonna be.

[00:18:15] Dino: The engineering schools pr, primarily internship programs. Mm-hmm. The goal is for you to go actually work in a plant. Mm-hmm. Don the uniform, as I call it, the PPE Safety shoes. Hi. Vis hard hats, safety glasses, and your internship programs via chemical, mechanical, electrical, and industrial. Puts you in the field while you're in school.

[00:18:35] Dino: Right? Yeah. You know, versus a computer science on the IT side. That may not be an opportunity that's presented to them. And not everybody wants to work in the industrial field as, as we're aware, but I think those folks that are pursuing those types of degrees are wandering to a plant because that's part of their requirement to, to graduate is to get that internship on a

[00:18:57] Emma: That is, yeah, the university I was at it.

[00:18:59] Emma: You did. It was required to have that experience, and I think that is a good experience, that you're not just studying the textbooks, you're actually getting that live. Real experience to know what you're gonna be getting into. Yeah. Another good thing that I know St. Louis has it, 'cause obviously we've done it, but high school, they have the CAPS program and I think it's good to get even high school student like that age group.

[00:19:23] Emma: Get them experience and exposure to this. Like we brought on several interns that were in high school still and they had half a day where they're in class learning about what the real life world's gonna be. But then the second half of the day, they're here intern interning with us. And I think that's something good.

[00:19:40] Emma: 'cause when I was going through high school, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I feel like a lot of kids don't know what they were wanting to do. So it's good to have. To go in person, see what it actually is, versus just guessing and hoping what the career path is gonna look like for you. Yeah.

[00:19:54] Dino: Well, and you know, I use this term, cybersecurity is a big word, right?

[00:19:57] Dino: It's a kind of a boil the ocean kind of term. And those students in high school, at least, they were thinking about cybersecurity, right? They didn't know exactly what field, in this particular case, when they wandered into our shop, realizing that we were. Doing cybersecurity, but it was really kind of a different angle for them when they realized what it was.

[00:20:16] Dino: Right.

[00:20:17] Emma: Yeah, it was different. And he started, same time I did, he's been here four years and he said, I didn't know this was an option, but now is able to tailor his college path around what we're doing. Kind of build his own degree almost.

[00:20:31] Dino: Yeah. And what would you say to students today, you know, people that are thinking about either, whether it's a career change.

[00:20:37] Dino: Or those that are going through school, what would you recommend for them to do if this is something that they wanted to pursue besides listening to our podcast?

[00:20:47] Emma: That's definitely number one. Um, I'd say it's good to go talk, I mean, finding a mentor, somebody you can go talk to. I know a lot of places they bring speakers in where they will talk about their experience or their career path.

[00:21:02] Emma: And just pushing yourself to learn what's out there. You need to embrace change in this field and really any field. So kind of embracing what's out there and it's okay to make a career path change. I mean, I use my degree a little bit to the extent of like the technical background, but it's okay to make a change and it might be the best change of your life.

[00:21:21] Emma: You don't know until you do it. So I'd say it's good to just embrace what can happen and go with the flow.

[00:21:27] Dino: Yeah. So what comes next for Emma future-wise? I mean, what do you got going on in your current job? I know you talked about traveling a lot and you're part of a very large engineering organization, so what are your thoughts in your current role and where you're headed?

[00:21:41] Emma: Yeah, that's also kind of what I'm trying to figure out at the moment with the big changes with the new company and everything. Try and figure out where I want my career path to go and what that'll look like. So right now I'm still on a technical path, but I've talked to a couple of like my mentors here and if I wanna go into project management or something like that.

[00:22:02] Emma: And it's nice that these big companies where you kind of have the ability to move laterally throughout the company and. Still work with the same team, but also expand it. So I'd say I, I'll let you know, Dina, when, when I know.

[00:22:19] Dino: The it o OT convergence piece is key. As you're seeing those relationships getting better, are you starting to see an OT cybersecurity practice within these organizations? One. Start developing it and, and how are they finding people to do this? Two, are they, a lot of them are requiring and leaning on their partners and or manage services to help them initially to manage all this information.

[00:22:44] Dino: Because to me it's a net new ad when you put a tool like Clarity in and you start seeing things that you've never really seen before in, in a different light context to your point. And then we help with that context to provide value and insights to that. Are you seeing practices growing? Not only just the ecosystem within the client itself, but the ecosystem that's supplying services and technologies to the manufacturers?

[00:23:08] Dino: Organizations like ours who build machines, build plants, right? New control system work. Mm-hmm.

[00:23:12] Gary: Yeah, so it's definitely something I've seen shift again, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, there was no one even going after managed security services in this space. They, they wanted the IT stuff. Clearly that's a well trod area, right?

[00:23:24] Gary: There's tons of, tons of folks. You can pick your favorite. But now a lot of folks are trying to get into it. You know, a lot of the big consulting firms, you know, a lot of system integrators we're seeing even the manufacturers, right? Rockwell, they're offering services now for this sort of stuff. So I see that changing a lot just in industry.

[00:23:43] Gary: It's also something that I think is really challenging, like your first question there on the people. I think that's one of the hardest things, right? Like it is. I've seen it go both directions where you hire a systems guy and try and teach him security, or you hire a security guy and try and teach him ot.

[00:23:59] Gary: The challenge is it takes a lot of lived exper, or at least from what I've seen, it takes a lot of lived experience. Like me, I was never planning on getting into security. It was forced into, it kind of got thrown into the deep end and just had to do it, and we had to beat an audit, right? The NRC was coming in.

[00:24:16] Gary: They didn't care how unprepared we were. They're gonna shut us down if we're not ready. And so we had to figure it out and you had to get in there, do it, get your hands dirty and start working with it. And that, I think, is the hardest thing. It's like to be able to get that experience. So that's why I've seen a lot of these.

[00:24:32] Gary: I think there is a limited talent pool of these folks, like the overlap of the security and systems knowledge. So I see a lot of these managed service providers and other organizations like snatching those folks up and that's why a lot of them have. Done well or starting to do well because they're able to feel the right type of people.

[00:24:51] Gary: It's another thing where I have seen organizations build these themselves in-house, and it's something I think I'll, we'll continue to see more of, but I. It's also something I just see shift a lot with deal with IT organizations. Are we gonna do it in-house? And then someone comes on and decides we're gonna move it all off to a consulting firm, and then someone else comes in and says, no, we gotta bring it all in-house.

[00:25:13] Gary: Again. I think you see those same type of things happening here. So broadly, I think that it, it kind of follows that same type of shifts that we've seen in the IT ecosystem over the years. Right. It's gonna get more advanced. It's gonna continue to get more advanced. You're gonna have more and more people coming on that are doing this.

[00:25:29] Gary: I think it's a very hot, focused area right now. So I think it's gonna continue expanding and then we'll see some of these shifts keep on going on.

[00:25:37] Dino: Yeah. So folks, on back to the people, I don't know if you've heard this term, P six. Peak 65, but you, you have a very large amount of baby boomers that are getting ready to retire and the millions and a lot of them are in these manufacturing environments.

[00:25:52] Dino: There's a lot of tribal knowledge getting ready to walk out the door to the tune of, I don't know, however many millions it is between now and 2027, I think is where the biggest number of folks that are leaving. So now you have a younger generation coming in and working in manufacturing is not something that they always have viewed as being cool, dark.

[00:26:11] Dino: Dirty, dangerous. So back to the resource pool, it's getting smaller. The question is, is how do we start expanding this, which is where I think the industrial world, from an OT perspective has to be more involved in this, in, in my view, right? You got the IT side. To your point, they've been doing cybersecurity for decades, a couple more, and so they're really good with technologies and solutions and resource and budgeting and governance.

[00:26:36] Dino: Governance and policy. I mean, now we need to start shifting that into this OT realm and start developing those same types of capabilities. So to the people side, are you seeing an influx of youngsters coming in? You know, as far as programs that people are put at the university level, or training programs at the state level, or.

[00:26:56] Gary: So I've definitely seen it with schools and stuff. I mean, clarity is engaged with a number of both government entities and like schools that are trying to put in security practices and they've kind of expanded into this OT space. I, I think it's a slower time coming, but it's definitely there. It's also something I think that you're gonna see as.

[00:27:16] Gary: More and more like on the manufacturing side, the OEMs, newer Rockwell stuff is not the same as slick fives and PLC fives. There's more modern programming stuff. It matches more with what you would do with other systems. Yes, it's highly specialized. Things still exist, but I think it is going to slowly trend in a more modern direction.

[00:27:38] Gary: I don't know how long that's gonna take, 'cause the OEMs move pretty slowly, but. I, I think as that happens, you'll see expertise be able to come online more frequently and or more quickly than they can in the past. 'cause I can tell you, like, to your point, I had to learn FORTRAN at my first job because straight outta college and I'm, I'm learning Fortran and that I had to work on a mainframe system that still exists out there.

[00:28:01] Gary: I mean, that's all over the place. I, I think about that as well. 'cause these folks leave. You end up relying so much on the vendors at that point and they're even losing people. You have these systems that have been in for 30, 40, 50 years and someone's gotta know 'em. I don't have a silver bullet for this one.

[00:28:19] Gary: I think eventually it'll change, and for Greenfield stuff it'll keep getting better. But the Brownfield stuff I think is gonna be a challenge for companies for a long time.

[00:28:28] Dino: And clarity. You guys are kind of in a unique position and role geopolitical globally. What do you see going on around the globe as far as certain nations doing a better job at providing cybersecurity solutions and technologies and their critical manufacturing, you know, around the world?

[00:28:44] Dino: I mean, how is that global piece shaping up as far as your perspective?

[00:28:49] Gary: So I've seen a lot of changes recently like the European unions doing a bunch of new requirements around this too, like changing how critical infrastructure is defined and adding on stuff in the us. I mentioned early on the TSA coming online to start doing cyber regs, A-S-C-F-I in Australia, there's a lot of these new.

[00:29:07] Gary: Regulatory bodies coming in. I think more adoption across a kind of global thing I think would be better. I mean, we do have some global standards like IC 6 2, 4, 4, 3, a lot of folks adhere to, but I do see a lot of reinventing the wheel that happens when these new regulators enter the space that think makes it challenging, both for the regulator trying to.

[00:29:28] Gary: Practitioner, this stuff, and then the users trying to perform these controls, figure out how they're gonna deal with an audit. I think it definitely changed, but I have seen it change dramatically. I, I think European Union has been doing good and leaning forward. I think the United States has a lot of good initiatives moving forward on this as well.

[00:29:45] Gary: So they're definitely starting to move in this direction. But I do talk with a lot of folks that aren't in regulated industries today. I always try and tell them like, just 'cause you're not today doesn't mean you're not tomorrow. I've heard folks say like the pandemic really opened up that all infrastructure is critical.

[00:30:02] Gary: Infrastructure like manufacturing of toilet paper, all of a sudden became critical infrastructure. You would never think of that in the past. Like that's not power, that's not water, that's not all these transportation or whatever. But the more and more connected we get, the more and more that this stuff has such a outsized impact on the public, I think you're gonna continue to see either government step in or shareholders step in.

[00:30:27] Gary: So I think even, even if you're lucky enough not to have a regulator, like it's good to lean forward a little bit and start trying to work on this and start trying to secure yourself.

[00:30:38] Dino: And, and because you guys have a global view of what's going on, I mean, your stuff's installed all over the world. Mm-hmm.

[00:30:44] Dino: Are, are you seeing the attacks in particular regions higher in certain areas compared to others?

[00:30:50] Gary: Yeah, so it's actually really interesting. So we do a conference every year called Nexus. Mm-hmm. And this year we had the general, who is in charge of Ukraine's cyber response came along and that was incredibly interesting, like the attack before the kinetic.

[00:31:08] Gary: War started in Ukraine. There was a massive cyber operation that occurred ahead of time and they had to move all of their infrastructure into the cloud so that they didn't have hard targets that could be hit and take out, you know, their water and their power and, and all these things. So they had to do this.

[00:31:24] Gary: Pretty dramatically, pretty quickly. And obviously we've seen in various geo regions like more both kinetic warfare starting, but we're seeing cyber attacks as well. I mean, I think you see it very recently with Israel and what's going on with Lebanon and Iran. This nation state type stuff is definitely happening.

[00:31:44] Gary: You know, there's definitely regions that are a little bit heated up, but I can tell you just from what I've seen, like the same guys, the same access of folks are still out there trying to do this, but even outside the nation state, it's expanded dramatically where a lot of these same nations now have.

[00:32:01] Gary: Either hackers for hire that can do stuff, or they're targeting these types of systems because they know they can get them to pay out. Particularly, I've seen this a lot in medical, like you see a lot of it where they'll hit ransomware and hospital organizations or large hbos because they know they can, they may have cyber insurance.

[00:32:18] Gary: I've seen it where they actually hack a cyber insured to figure out who's insured to start targeting them. 'cause they know they'll get a payout. So all of it's getting a lot more advanced, even outside of the nation state type stuff. Obviously we have these conflicts going on, but even outside of that, as it becomes more lucrative and as these dark groups can go after it just to straight up make money, it's more effective.

[00:32:41] Gary: And I think you're gonna continue to see that expanding.

[00:32:44] Dino: So, shifting gears a little bit, one of the things that I've witnessed is it in a lot of cases, has gone out and bought an IDS package, whether it's it, ot, they got an IDS package, usually something that was born out of the IT realm versus something specific to the OT realm.

[00:33:00] Dino: Are you seeing any shifts in clients that have made a decision to buy a tool and recognize that the tool that they bought initially isn't giving 'em everything that they need in regards to what's going on in that OT environment? I mean, clarity is a highly specialized OT industrial detection system that brings a lot of features and functionalities to it, where some of these other tools are a little white.

[00:33:20] Dino: Our organization as an SI and an OEM, I believe that we should be on the receiving end if you have a tool. That as work that we're doing inside these manufacturing facilities, there's a lot of insights and beneficial data to help with the projects that we're doing. Either helping you expand your visibility in this technology in the machine centers or the plants that we're building for you and or help us with our startups.

[00:33:44] Dino: And sometimes I don't get that it bought the tool. They're doing their thing. OT guys are unaware of a lot of the insights and the data. Have you seen a good way to say, look, 'cause we're going with our own tools. They bought tool X and visibility on the plants, maybe 10 or 15, 20%. We're getting ready to fire up a packaging line, do a startup, and we wanna know more about the inside of that plant.

[00:34:07] Dino: So we'll bring in our own stuff and discover and learn.