Top Takeaways: Why IT and OT Must Unite Now

[00:00:33] Dino: Hi, my name is Dino Busulaki. I'm the chief technology officer from Delta technology. And today have a colleague and a friend from the St. Louis region who used to live here. Mick Cody, who is the CTO for ARMS. Mick, I'd like for you to take time to introduce yourself to our audience.

[00:00:49] Dino: And tell us a little bit about your background and how you got involved in not only just cybersecurity, but specifically OT

[00:00:55] Mick: cybersecurity. Yeah, thank you for having me. Appreciate that. when I first landed in from Ireland back in the late 80s, I,, St. Louis was a home to us and I've lived all over the country because I've worked for 3 of the big 4 in a consulted way.

[00:01:07] Mick: So I've moved around quite a bit, but I found my home down here in Sugar Land, Texas now. I recently joined, and they asked me to come in and be a part of the larger, the Americas team. from Canada down to South America, basically, and to be the CTO kind of covering that region and that part of it , and reporting into Sean who kind of runs that whole region.

[00:01:25] Mick: So far, , my initial foray into this, if you really want to go back to it, I think you and I were having a conversation when we first met a while back was, , I had a gig with Coca Cola for as I came out and got involved in technology at the early part of my career. And a lot of it was dealing with the plant floor.

[00:01:39] Mick: But back in the old days, because of the gray hairs, we were working on token ring back in those days. And we used to isolate the manufacturing plant floor for the bottling company separately from what we did for corporate and everything else that tied into it. At the initial part of it, that's a huge part of how I started back in the early nineties.

[00:01:54] Mick: That led me later on. I think initially when I was with a couple of other partners at PwC, and we decided to embark on doing something with OT and a couple of the other gents, actually, I think there were four of us total. got together in the Houston office and then started getting underway with building an O.

[00:02:07] Mick: T. practice and being a part of that. And I was very privileged to be a part of growing, building that, adding the human beings, , going out, actually recruiting for specific types of individuals who may have had E. backgrounds, electronic, electrical, engineering, chemical.

[00:02:20] Mick: Engineering backgrounds, then mixed with a comp side background. and then I did a quick stint, just recently with worldwide technology again, hiring the right guy to come in and help run that O. T. practice over there. and getting that underway with what,W. T. is just launched itself into doing, and they've really created a huge foray of what they're doing in the air.

[00:02:38] Mick: They're advanced technology center. There's is a very good investment. No different than what PwC is doing, but again, lab for different reasons, from a consultant perspective versus selling. , that's my background.

[00:02:48] Dino: Yeah, I've, toured the ATC over worldwide. it's very nice.

[00:02:51] Dino: It can help clients really get a visual of the technologies that are being used in their environments. especially for executives who I don't think get a lot of opportunity to get not only in data centers, but now we're talking about the plant floor. And I even see lessons, less knowledge specifically about what's, what technology is being used on that plant for.

[00:03:10] Dino: And so in your travels, both with armists and prior, Employers Price Waterhouse being one on PwC, what do you think some of those challenges are for those manufacturing organizations that, current state? Where are we today? these tools have been around, at least over a decade, right?

[00:03:25] Dino: They've been coming out intothe,environment as far as, tools like arm is who's really grasping this per se. if you have the itot, we can talk about itot convergence here in a little bit, who's really driving this narrative within these manufacturing organizations.

[00:03:39] Dino: Great.

[00:03:39] Mick: I think that varies depending on we'll call it awareness or lack of self awareness and certain currently, I think it's getting better. I do think it's slow to mature. I don't know how I know you're working a lot of clients that we work on together, but I think it surprises me unless you're in the top fortune 100 or say, even I could get it down to maybe the top. manufacturing 50. I wish I saw more uptake. I think they're taking it more seriously in the background. I know our client base has grown inside of armistice. It did while I was at PwC and it got underway while I was at WWT. I know you and I had that conversation that belt has been growing, exponentially also over the past five years.

[00:04:15] Mick: So I think it's picking up its pace. There are three sets of characters that I think can drive it. definitely if you've got a forward thinking CIO, which we'll talk about that ITOT part in a minute. Some CIOs take it for real. see the hospital systems, both positively and not always positively.

[00:04:31] Mick: Actually, some of those guys progressively thinking that they have risk or exposure with med device from an O. T. perspective. Then I would say in other cases, the chief security officer. Absolutely. I think is driving a huge brand of this. I think they have probably the most amount of awareness and have been doing a better job of communicating that to the board.

[00:04:49] Mick: I would love to see, companies like you and I giving them more ammunition or giving them better. data that would help them make a better decisions on how they can manage that exposure. but on the rare occasion, you'll find somebody from the engineering side, right?

[00:05:02] Mick: Somebody who we can go talk to, being down here the Houston market, obviously, it's not uncommon that I would see somebody from Gulf operations or somebody from maybe 1 of the terminals or somebody running. A downstream, midstream, upstream portion of the business, a senior leader will get another person inside that organization.

[00:05:19] Mick: They go hey, this OT cyber OT thing is a real thing. let's get a project underway to evaluate what needs to happen. So I'd like to see a lot more of it from that driven from the engineering side. I just don't see a huge amount of it yet , even when I go to conferences, it tends to still be focused around the chief security officer the most.

[00:05:36] Mick: Yeah.

[00:05:36] Dino: and when you talk about those two groups, I think the value prop for both are different between that IT and that OT group. Can you tell us a little bit about what that IT proposition is for that CISO, CIO, that IT organization, and the OT organization, right? I have my own thoughts specifically around OT, but what do you think that value is? What do you see that being for those two

[00:05:59] Mick: groups? that's a great question. Historically, , you and I know this because we've been out in the field.

[00:06:03] Mick: I've been out literally in the Balkans. I've been in the Permian basin. I've been in the oil and gas world. And when you're out there, you're out there with the engineers themselves, or you're just dealing with rig operators. Not always historically had, a reluctance to have somebody from it to come in, either do an audit, do an assessment, do something.

[00:06:20] Mick: Are you aware of this? And in there, I won't say it's combative, but it's not a friendly relationship. Initially is that gets underway. I think. From an IT perspective, the visibility of getting a holistic picture from what is doing to the OT part. you and I both know that, people will say the air gap, right?

[00:06:40] Mick: Okay. We'll take the air gap in conversation to a different perspective where they're doing things. We isolate the network. But 1 of the things that it became very apparent to me, and I'll pick on oil and gas, I can pick on medical world. It's been a lot of time as well. And then also, oddly enough, in the aviation world, where the telemetry that comes off some of the devices that are non traditional it are important for running the business.

[00:07:00] Mick: if there are flow valves running between the rig to Corpus Christi to Midland, and all of that data gets lumped and dumped into eventually. At home base in Houston, that telemetry data helps them make better decisions or what they're supposed to be doing with efficiency of running the business or any of those other parts of pieces.

[00:07:17] Mick: So historically that. Telemetry has been packaged away and stays in an isolated environment. Now, if I T and O T are going to come together and actually do a better job of providing better data for the company to run their business more effectively and efficiently, I think it has to happen. I see the holistic picture.

[00:07:34] Mick: we recently did something at a pharma company where we were able to display up on the dashboard,the five through zero zone with Purdue modeling. and I think I spoke to you. This is we found something literally talking in the 5 zone to something in the 0 zone.

[00:07:46] Mick: Now, uniquely right now does both. We do it and we have the ability to collect the asset information on 1 side and collected on the other, but we do can see East West traffic. And when they start communicating, or they go North South, like they did on that particular model. It was very interesting to see a device communicating down to the plant floor from the 5 to the 0, right?

[00:08:06] Mick: And you and I both know that may not always be a good thing. at the end of the day, I think the holistic picture. Again, tone and approach as I've been told by my daughters who are very good at always reminding me of how I approach whatever I do want to have a good conversation with them as I'm coaching them as they're going into their careers this day.

[00:08:23] Mick: Is, everything's about tone and approach, and I think our cyber security officers are CIOs and getting collaboratively in the room and making the OT engineering people in the field feel comfortable that they're going to come in there and support what they're doing to enhance what's going to happen, rather than basically keep them at arm's length.

[00:08:42] Mick: And I don't want to be involved with that. And I think you've seen that too. . And I think once you get over those humps you call collision. I would like to see a convergence and an actual, a much more loving embrace that both can support each other.

[00:08:54] Mick: And they both get something from it. No,

[00:08:57] Dino: there's a third leg on that stool, and that's the OEMs and the system integrators, right? And they play a very important role in that OT realm, right? Where we've seen, if they have responsibility, that OEM, for example, for support, maintenance, warranty of the machine centers that they've, providing to their clients, they want to lock it down, right?

[00:09:16] Dino: I've seen them put in their own firewalls, right? And try to keep visibility away from the client. I worked for Rockwell for a number of years and I've been involved in those conversations all the way from the feed studies, we call it OT adoption, and I've never really got, IT was never in the room while you're designing and building, whether a new plant, these machine centers that are coming in when you talk about collaboration, are you seeing twist or a bend in that OEM realm where they're, they've got to start thinking about how they can do better Yeah.

[00:09:46] Dino: The machine centers that they're providing their clients, right? And then trying to understand better is go to how to metrics getting back to that point. How do you get that into the client's hands? So they can at least understand their cyber security process so that they can get cyber security insurance.

[00:09:58] Dino: They can understand their vulnerabilities. have any thoughts on

[00:10:00] Mick: that?. I think that there's a funny way that they go about doing it that they could improve. They could almost be the concrete or the mortar between the bricks that help us do that better.

[00:10:10] Mick: And if you look at , the big players out there, Rockwell, GE, Siemens, Honeywell, I believe that they're trying their best to do the right thing. I will say on other occasions, I'm not picking on any 1 of them to shore, but there are times when they end up in the field with the next greatest and latest, piece of technology that they'll put next to a piece of, a flow valve or something that's linking to what they'll do to a, HMI or to a PLC option of what they're doing and locate.

[00:10:37] Mick: We can window wise it. We can give you that now you can, bring that up on a schematic. You can see what it's doing. It provides you better telemetry, but in certain cases, just like in the med device space, they're not always thinking cyber 1st and that's okay. That's not necessarily there.

[00:10:53] Mick: There's your, but they need to have it at least built into the appropriate way to lay that technology down to support. What is good for the business and good for their product. But also good that keeps everything protected in a manner to your point that allows them to have appropriate cyber insurance.

[00:11:08] Mick: And if something was to occur, it's about resiliency. And I know a lot of people have been bashing the words around about cyber resiliency. Maybe 5, 6, 7 years and it's very relevant. I was involved in a breach at 1 particular stage, not Too far long ago, about 4 years ago, and I remember the chairman of the board coming back to me, basically came back and said, I love that you're using that terminology.

[00:11:27] Mick: That's very relevant and that's all fine and well. But the conversation needs to be about my business. I need the business to be resilient. The cyber part of it is important and it leads to my business being more resilient. But at the end of the day, I want you to think about it up here in a different level that the whole incorporation of my business compromised by what happens in the small niche of cyber.

[00:11:47] Mick: So there's a gap between the way he was looking at it versus the way the CSO was presenting it to him. from the OEM perspective, I do believe they're trying to go down the right path. I'd like to see them engage differently in the field. That supports a better cyber posture, like you were talking about cyber hygiene.

[00:12:03] Mick: I'd like to see that kind of be part of their vernacular when they go out into the field to help their clients as you're in any 1 of the industries that you and I support. Yeah,

[00:12:12] Dino: and part of 1 of the programs that we work with when we're working with a client, and let's say There are an arm is. Climate client, for example, most manufacturers, always have some level of activity going in to their manufacturing facility, some capital project, meaning that there's some expansion, some lifecycle replacement, maybe some new products that trying to bring in. We're working with these, OEMs, if you will, on trying to make their panels sensor ready. look, this client's already an arm shop. I just had this conversation with a very large adult beverage manufacturer here in St. Louis. you know who that is. and I'm talking to the team that runs the soc, right?

[00:12:50] Dino: and so they're very familiar with the O-T-I-D-S platforms that they're using, but they're not deploying any sensors, right? So the question is. when you think about your partners, and we are one of them,and we're proud to be an arm, partner. What are you looking for in your partner community these days? and how do you see them help driving , this business and improving these cybersecurity postures for your clients, what's neat that you're looking for in those

[00:13:13] Mick: guys? sitting on the software side of the world now, I'm where I live in the technological part of where I'm supposed to be providing good technology to you and to the, to our clients, it's slightly different from what I've done for almost two thirds of my career, which was what you've been doing, right.

[00:13:25] Mick: Which is consulting. I think from a partnership perspective, one of the things that we'll see probably on the front end. Whether technology is the early adoption and then I won't say a near stopping, but not continuing to evolve, mature and with the adoption, right? And literally breathe, live and breathe it every day where the console almost is a daily. point of contact a human being on what you're doing. And that could go to the chief security officer, right? we have the dashboards for them that are basically ready, but from a collaborative perspective, the part that we don't do. Mhm. other than we present the technology, we solve the problem of giving them better visibility, right?

[00:14:03] Mick: There's definitely visibility. We do vulnerability management now on top of it with the Viper product. You guys have got to help us start setting the strategy and getting in ahead of us that goes. Okay. Where are you going on your journey? Why are you looking at this? The tech, would you respect and I can say this, even though I'm over here, the technology is not the only part, right? And in certain cases, technology historically from other engagements I would have done at PwC or other places, the technology in certain cases may cause more problems, not actually fix anything.

[00:14:31] Mick: But I think it's the process of the communication that you would, refer to when you're getting in deep with the chief security officer, getting in there, being the executive advisor and helping them set a strategy for rolling out the technology. And then, as you consume it, then how do you amalgamate it right?

[00:14:47] Mick: And then what's your ongoing strategy to continuously use it and evolve? One of the things that happens with us and it happens where competitors to I know clarity. They were all in the OT lab that I used to have. but I think the back end of that is, is the constant layering of what you're going to do.

[00:15:01] Mick: We're like a Swiss army knife, but with 128 blade Swiss army knife, which I always go back to, I need Delta. And my partners to come back and go okay, I want you to do these four things. These are the first four parts of the 128 blade swiss army knife. I want you to go execute on Then you're going to add four more and you keep going and by the way, it's not just the use cases You're also adding site by site that customer that were involved with it, that's a good example.

[00:15:26] Mick: They've got, thousands of sites across the globe and no 2 are the

[00:15:30] Dino: same. No 2 are the same.

[00:15:31] Mick: the adoption and the consumption of how you get that data into a recognizable format that it's constantly use that it's constantly of relevance of what they're doing to manage their overall exposure.

[00:15:42] Mick: that's an adoption thing that what we do, we lay the top technology and, how we operate, right? We have customer success, technical account managers for someone of that size and dedicated almost for an entire year. But through that process, we're focused on the technology of what you need to consume from a use case perspective.

[00:15:59] Mick: The other part is, where does that lay into the overall strategy for cyber? Where does that lay into the OT cyber strategy and what you're trying to solve for? And then lastly, constant adoption and evolving. Right and maturing with the technology, because we have, there you can slice and dice the data and, you've been on our console.

[00:16:17] Mick: You know what it looks like. You can come up with as many variations as you want for. These ones, these images don't have any protection. These ones have protection, but it's the protection that you used to use at endpoints 5 years ago. This is 1 that's up to date. But you're missing it on 150 devices, right?

[00:16:32] Mick: That stuff needs to be pulled to the front. And then you've got to do it side by side, which your point is right. No, no one to looks the same. But then when you're done, how did you amalgamate it? do I look like 18 months from now? And I, we need partners like you to take them on that journey.

[00:16:46] Mick: With the technology is this small. The process people part is the big part

[00:16:52] Dino: brings me to a point questions. What did you witness more in regards to clients as they move towards the arm of solution? Are they relying to build their own internal practice? Or are they relying on services and partners to help them get off the ground initially and maybe staying on that path because maybe their model is an outsourcing model.

[00:17:14] Dino: Maybe there's a hybrid. But in this particular space, what are you seeing is the majority of them moving to initially?

[00:17:20] Mick: Unless you're in the fortune, I'll even say 50 to 100, do you know, they may have one person, right? One,

[00:17:28] Dino: we went to a couple at the most. They got 100 plants in their fleet, right?

[00:17:33] Mick: Yeah. I like, yeah, I can give you even, equal the size of our pals in St.

[00:17:38] Mick: Louis and that manufacturer that you just spoke of earlier. And equal to size and strengthen, but they don't have a clinical dedicated team. the traditional cyber team is they're being pulled in, but there's only one or two for a global company. That's, a hundred, 200 billion company.

[00:17:53] Mick: you'd seen that team would make be slightly smaller. Right now, based upon the lack of maturity of, we can talk about this in a minute. Also, is the lack of resources that focus on this. There's a maturity of those resources. So even if we've been growing them, and I know we went through this when we were doing that at PwC, we were recruiting out of A& M and some of the local universities, particularly across the country in general, but finding those individuals with the appropriate engineering background with a comp sci background that we can grow them into rock stars of their own and then take them into their own career paths.

[00:18:23] Mick: Thank you. And give them viable job. The other thing too is , how do we keep them,entertained and viable in what they wanna do long term for what they wanna do with their career? so yes, right now, I would say you, you and I like, we need you as much. we're in laying it down, but I see people coming in and doing resident engineers, we've talked about this.

[00:18:40] Mick: they almost need an additive human being to sit in their environment. They're willing to pay it for a year. To basically do what we just talked about ongoing. Yeah, there's a couple of partners that want to dip into the managed service space. not a lot. There's probably maybe less than 3 that I'm talking to right now.

[00:18:55] Mick: They want to take it over. yeah,

[00:18:57] Dino: just because we recognize what it takes to build that out. the fortune 1000, you've got 50 plants in your fleet, having 1 person assigned to this is not sufficient to do this. we've witnessed these tools that have been deployed.

[00:19:11] Dino: they've been out for 3, 4, 5 years turning into shelfware. it's not uncommon for us to find that they haven't expanded visibility. They haven't put in Technology to get to the East West traffic that's out there in their manufacturing facilities really get a full understanding.

[00:19:26] Dino: And in my view, what we do as part of our practice is going out. Not only putting the tool in, but touring the planet. I don't mean a cursory view. I'm talking about opening up these panels. Look at that infrastructure and architecture and the networks that you have in there to determine how this machine is connected.

[00:19:44] Dino: What's it connected to and what else is it connected to around it? So what's in this panel? What's outside this panel? And so we chase that down to really try to understand that and in our business. that's a value to the OT organization because you're speaking their language. You show up or in the uniform.

[00:20:00] Dino: They know you look like you belong there. You're speaking their language. And so as you're walking and touring through their plant, going through this, you're. Planning to them, why we're here doing what we're doing, what these tools and solutions are, I was talking to, a potential client a week or so ago, and you could tell the gentleman on the other end would obviously been on the job for 30 years controls guy.

[00:20:21] Dino: And the first words out of his mouth were, what are you going to put on my network? That's the first thing he said, it is because, even when I mentioned the tool sets, it's like, if you heard any of these, he's eh, I would put them in the fortune 1000, And you have a who's running a very large, food plant who is not even aware of this stuff. And so it's a challenge.

[00:20:42] Mick: I think there's a part of it, too, that you guys a lot more people can be doing, and the other part that ties to the back end of that. Is the resiliency part, right?

[00:20:50] Mick: You do get in and pull down the panels. we won't get to that level agreement unless somebody really wants us to get in on the floor to do something specific. But those panels lead to the electricity that lead to a generator that lead to all of the other things. And you and I both know, did witness, not on too many different occasions, but over the period of time I worked at Coca Cola, like,when the bottling side of it,

[00:21:09] Mick: that plant floor stopped, the bottles were not moving and that thing, that's money just literally sitting there at a stoppage point. at any given manufacturing perspective, we all know that the resilience, then that goes back to what that board member said, which was, this is a business resilient problem.

[00:21:24] Mick: Cyber is causing are a part of my overall strategy for my business to be resilient. But, you have the ability, I think, to go in and look at the back end of it using our technology or anyone else's for that matter. To see what's going on the back end, right? Where's the HVAC systems?

[00:21:37] Mick: How are all these things connected? And is that entire plant. resilient, right? It's not just about those, the HMI or PLC functions that we're worried about. You're going to give them the full does your service play that we're just giving you that small part of at least giving you visibility into what it looks like right now.

[00:21:52] Dino: and part of the discussion we have, tools like arm is it's, there's a cybersecurity components, a big component, right? That's why we're having the conversation, but it's also a process integrity. Component, right? It's more to your point about, what are we doing to help improve operational efficiencies in that environment and safety, right?

[00:22:08] Dino: We call it digital safety, where sometimes it lacks that, understanding of the production operational, right? It's job is help you manage your business. OT's job is the reason why you're in business, right? that's the predominant revenue generating component of your environment.

[00:22:22] Dino: and merging that together so they can feel that pain when that packaging line is not running and you're losing 50 grand an hour, theoretically, and that's not uncommon. why did that happen? because the OT guys, they just want to get the machine back up and running, right?

[00:22:34] Dino: They're not going to do the diagnosis right now. Their job is to get back and running, and it may take them three, four hours to get there. So in the meantime, they're losing 50, 100 grand an hour, right? that's relevant, right? And so IT needs to recognize that. And sometimes I think that's why they shy away from the plant floor because of that.

[00:22:51] Dino: One, it can be dangerous, and two, it can be painful.

[00:22:55] Mick: that operational manager you were talking to understand why he was reticent. What are you going to put on my network? He's thinking, what are you possibly going to shut down?

[00:23:02] Dino: He's already lived it.

[00:23:03] Mick: exactly. So our IT brethren. I think it's a language conversion thing that we're gonna get to. When we start coming in with understanding that part of it and Don't get me wrong, it's been bashed for, almost decades at this stage is being a cost center, right?

[00:23:16] Mick: Okay, that's fine. But there are an awful lot of helpful people that I recognize across that it centric people. If you give them the appropriate vernacular and training to go in and buddy up with somebody on the other side that says, I'm going to help you with this and this. And oh, by the way, I actually may make things run faster.

[00:23:31] Mick: And more effective. And by the way, maybe over , improve our overall safety record. And, no injuries for, 720 days, right? 100%. Yeah, that's the conversation, you and I have to have when we go in there. All right, i'm going

[00:23:43] Dino: to pivot to another space and i'd be interested in getting your take on this regulation, And it's highly regulated environments critical infrastructure, which we live in the middle of right now where you're at what do you think that role is?

[00:23:55] Dino: From a regulation perspective, right? Because I've heard too much regulation, you stifle innovation, right? but it's important. like OSHA is important. sometimes almost have these things, digital safety, physical safety, running side by side here. what are your thoughts on regulations in this space?

[00:24:09] Mick: , to see a little bit of what you just said, I would agree too much is bad, right? I'd like to see, but there's a balance. , you can see what's going on in health care, right? The high tech act went into effect in June of 2013. so health care is further down the capacity, what they're doing based

[00:24:25] Mick: just go traditional, but just not even talking about med device specifically, but med device may cause a breach, right? Or someone gets on a PAX imaging system and they do whatever they do. The links to them having major down here in the Texas area, 3 hospital systems went down. They targeted specifically packages linked to the actual medical systems.

[00:24:45] Mick: They were not targeting the entire medical record system. Just the er, very interesting and very specific attack that happened probably in the last 3 weeks. when you look at all these other parts and pieces,I see regulations being relative for negligence.

[00:25:00] Mick: I'm pure negligence. I see them being relevant . can't be leaving a plant floor, running like it would possibly third world country where you won't have as much regulatory oversight. can't have that either. That's the two ends of the spectrum.

[00:25:12] Mick: But I would say that the style of the government being involved and having the right Support of the people like yourself, myself, the right people in there involved in giving them the appropriate levels of information that has them enhance. The safety enhance focusing on effectiveness and efficiency in conjunction with making it, cyber safe.

[00:25:34] Mick: I think that's appropriate way to go at it. at the end of the day, it's got to be balanced. Across the board, see too little too much. we can end with this, but I think the new regulations that came out around Sarbanes Oxley. I'll call it Sarbanes Oxley 2 that they've added with the cyber regulations that came out in July.

[00:25:51] Mick: They went into effect on December 15th and December 18th. Now that now you're going to have, Public companies, if there's any form of negligence associated with asset inventory or negligence associated with asset that was not counted for, or a breach occurred because of it. This is going all the way up the food chain to the CEO

[00:26:08] Dino: the

[00:26:09] Mick: sec now, if you're, that's what I was referring to.

[00:26:11] Mick: Yeah, because,

[00:26:13] Dino: because now your investors and stakeholders are being,becoming aware of some of these issues because I see it a lot. There's a lot of, breaches that go on out there. Clients manufacturing, that stumbles and is still stumbling for months, right?

[00:26:26] Dino: We can talk about Clorox, but I can rattle off a few others that, okay. Haven't really made the news, right? Because maybe they didn't have to publish, what had happened to them. And, they've

[00:26:35] Mick: got very specific around the 10 K, eight K thing, right? If you've got material disclosure and you've got an issue that comes across with it, they're going to be very explicit on how you've got to notarize.

[00:26:44] Mick: Are notified, excuse me, and how you actually prepare your financial statements for that quarter differently than you would have if you had no material breach. yeah, those are going to have a little bit more teeth, and I think it may drive a different style of behavior, at least in the public for well, and it

[00:26:56] Dino: will ripple to right through your supply chain.

[00:26:58] Dino: That are buying new goods too. So they're also going to get caught up in it. it's been really great talking to you. I'm so glad you joined this, podcast with us. I know the holidays are here,I'm looking forward to catching up, next time you're in St.

[00:27:10] Dino: Louis and if I, or if I come down your way to Houston or we bump into each other on the road somewhere. So not

[00:27:16] Mick: at all. Thank you, Dino. Thank you both for having me. I really appreciate it. Cheers. Happy holidays to you.