The Future Looks Bright : Insights & Advice for Next Gen Cybersecurity Leaders

[00:00:00] Dino: engineering is all about solving a problem, figure out what problem you want to solve and explore the details about. what it is about that and the solutions. so, I mean, in this, problem, it is protecting the OT environment. And to do that, you need to learn about what those components are and it works together.

[00:00:46] Dino: Hi, my name is Dino Busulaki, and today with me I have Noah Duckworth, who is an OT industrial cybersecurity engineer. Welcome.

[00:00:56] Noah: Thank you, Dino. It's a pleasure to be here.

[00:00:58] Dino: So tell us about your journey to get to this point, and how long have you been doing it? And we'll talk a little bit about your education and the field that you entered and some of the technologies you've been working and maybe even some of the verticals. environments into vertical industries you've been working in.

[00:01:15] Dino: so tell us what you're doing in regards to OT cyber security, maybe even how that relates to IT a little bit, but let's talk about the OT stuff.

[00:01:24] Noah: Yeah. So for about the last 2 and a half years, I've been working and, OT cybersecurity. it's been a lot about, going in and learning the different environments and kind of how it. They are working interconnected with all the industrial machinery that is connected to the network to talk about how nowadays a lot of the equivalent is connected to the network, not always segmented, but it's kind of all interconnected.

[00:01:48] Noah: So, we do a lot of going in and trying to understand how that's all working and kind of find vulnerabilities and different ways that it could be done better or set up and segmented better. that's what I've been doing kind of the last 2 years along with asset inventory to get an understanding of what all is out there that all these different verticals, whether it's food and Bev, rail, a whole bunch of different variety of stuff.

[00:02:13] Dino: Yeah, and how do you compare and contrast that a little bit to the IT stuff? Obviously, when you're working in these industrial environments, there is some IT participation and maybe even some tools are involved. can you really kind of talk a little bit about what's. Different between O. T.

[00:02:30] Dino: And cybersecurity technologies and who are some of those vendors that provide that technology? And how is that different from the I. T. stuff?

[00:02:38] Noah: yeah, so for from my experience, the it stuff really stops for. lot of our clients at the IDF, where they have Cisco switches and provide access to the equipment. so they're more about the actual network infrastructure the side and kind of. All the different end point protection for, All of the IT workers and all of the rest of the business besides the manufacturing floor.

[00:03:01] Noah: And then, so for the OT side, it's how all those different machines, the PLCs, hmis, how those connect and operate over the network, and sometimes they're going over the IT network, how it's. architecture, and then a lot of what we use is the intrusion detection and intrusion prevention systems on our side to get a better understanding how the side is connected to the switches and network infrastructure.

[00:03:28] Dino: Yeah, a little bit about E. D. R. Right for the end point detection response when you're finding things like. Crowd strike and sentinel one and other tools like that within the O. T. Space running on H. M. I. Those are human machine interfaces. sometimes those don't fit very well down in that space, Because they're very disruptive. A lot of the I. T. Tools can be disrupted to the control system space. I mean, that's what we see, right? When you're sitting down there doing you're doing what kind of impact these sometimes you see from these I. T. Tools impacting things. Yeah. That industrial plant floor production system,

[00:04:03] Noah: well along that point, one of the ones I see a lot too is a lot of the, IT scanning along with the EDR. So they're trying to get the open ports and the, open vulnerabilities, but they're hammering some of the OT equipment that should not be. So along that point, there should be OT specific, endpoint protection, like the TX one product.

[00:04:23] Noah: just scanning, like, safe active query that should be used specifically in that environment. So there is less impact.

[00:04:32] Dino: we witnessed that too, right? I mean, that's really relevant because sometimes it's the round peg square hole, Somebody believes I have a cyber security tool. The vendors tell me I can use it in the OT environment. And what we're finding is that doesn't match up, It's not apples to apples.

[00:04:48] Dino: It's apples and oranges. So, so what are some of those OT ideas platforms that you've been working with over the last couple of years?

[00:04:55] Noah: I would say the main 1 that I've worked with is clarity. C. T. D. continuous direct protection. the cloud version is and then there's, additional companies like arm Cisco Cyber Vision, just to name a few of them. there's a lot out there. TX1 as well.

[00:05:12] Dino: and are you seeing, where the OT practices, the ecosystem as I call it, right, are they starting to get more, involved and engaged in improving cybersecurity for the machine centers that they're providing? So, like safety, you got to make safe machines, but are you starting to see the OT ecosystem starting to play a bigger role in cybersecurity for the industrial arena?

[00:05:37] Noah: I would say for some of the clients we go into, it really depends where they are in their maturity. Some are forward thinking and trying to go after it. Some are going after it just for compliance. so it really depends. But I would say a lot of the OT side of the fence that we work with when we are, Working with the client, they don't always have the manpower to run these systems once they're in.

[00:06:00] Noah: So they might not be used as they should be.

[00:06:03] Dino: All right. Well, it's a net new ad, right? I mean, they're starting to see information that they haven't seen before in their environment, to their asset inventory, the vulnerabilities associated with those industrial assets. So it does take a different perspective and how you're going to improve your, your cybersecurity posture.

[00:06:21] Dino: moving along. so what is it that you like about your work? Specifically, I mean, what is it that makes you want to do this?

[00:06:28] Noah: I would say 1 thing that I really like is going in and learning about all these different environments, all the different manufacturing verticals. is really interesting. It's kind of like the show how it's made in real life and getting to see how the entire process works. How everything's connected controlled, shown visually, but all the safety implications.

[00:06:48] Noah: Just a whole bunch of different stuff that works together 1, continual process.

[00:06:53] Dino: Yeah, without naming names, what kind of verticals have you worked in? What kind of industries have you had the opportunity to work in?

[00:06:59] Noah: I would say rail food and kind refrigeration. can making just a few,

[00:07:09] Dino: Yeah. So, is it that you found most challenging in doing this work?

[00:07:15] Noah: I would say variety, how each of them is different. Not everyone the same. Once you go into 1 food and they're kind of set up the same and you kind of learn that 1. But going into each 1 is its own kind of genre. You have to learn how it all works and the controls are the same, but not they're not exactly the same from rail to food and Bev.

[00:07:36] Noah: They're set up differently and connected differently.

[00:07:39] Dino: Yeah, I like the term genre, you know, even though you can go into the same company that has 10 or 20 plants in their fleet, and no two are the same. Right. As far as if they use in their environment. So that genre is a good way of looking at

[00:07:52] Noah: especially when they were built, whether they're older or newer plant, a lot of the newer plants are super easy to get around. But the old ones that have been retrofitted with a whole bunch of different stuff. It's kind of hard to make sense of what's out there.

[00:08:05] Dino: Yeah. So if you had a young person who was in school, what would you, and knowing that the universities probably aren't really teaching this, right? I mean, they teach cybersecurity and they teach computer science, get it. Or then there's the traditional engineering schools that teach you, whether mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, your background is, from school is a chemical engineer, right?

[00:08:26] Dino: so when you think about. going into these environments, which was an advantage for you being an engineer coming out of school, because you got to do internships in facturing facilities. Right? So you want to tell us a little bit about that.

[00:08:37] Noah: Yeah, so I, I did chemical engineering from zoom. And 1 of the internships I did it was a. Environmental health and safety internship for a company that produces some clean supplies. and we really got to go around and kind of see how all the processes were made and how everything kind of worked and that get me good experience.

[00:08:57] Noah: Working in a team, and kind of just exploring what all is out there because. In education, we learned control, but we learned a lot about the math about controls. We never actually physically touched a PLC or saw how it connected to anything else. So it was really just. The math behind it, so that is 1 thing though, which schools nowadays would show you how what these devices are, how they work, rather than just the equations.

[00:09:23] Dino: no, and that's a gap, I think there's a gap in the university space around OT cyber security, you can connect those things together. Something that we need to. See growth in right because this is a very fast maturing growing industry and we recognize there's not a lot of resources in this space.

[00:09:44] Dino: Right? And and so if you again, if you were asking, talking to a young person, that's getting ready to figure out what they want to do with their future. What would you say to them?

[00:09:53] Noah: I would just kind of say, for me, the engineering is all about solving a problem, figure out what problem you want to solve and explore the details about. what it is about that and the solutions. so, I mean, in this, problem, it is protecting the OT environment. And to do that, you need to learn about what those components are and it works together.

[00:10:13] Dino: Yeah, So looking forward, you know, what is it that you're more interested in doing in your career as you continue down this path? I mean, where do you see yourself in 3 years, 5 years, 10 years from now?

[00:10:26] Noah: You know, that is a great question. , I haven't found 1 exact, thing I want to hone in on. I've just been really enjoying learning all the different, aspects of, I mean, networking, cybersecurity. cloud space VMs, just how everything works together because it all plays a part and a manufacturing plant.

[00:10:45] Noah: They have all of them. So just expanding the knowledge on everything and how it works. It's been very interesting to me.

[00:10:51] Dino: Yeah, it seems like every week you're kind of in a new place, right? A new, whether it's a new industry. Or a new plant, looking at a whole different genre using your words of system setup. I mean, it definitely is not boring and be my guess. Right? I mean, not like sitting at a desk, working in an office or sitting at home.

[00:11:12] Dino: You're in the field, I mean, you go out there. But on your, what I call the uniform, which is your PPE, your personal protection equipment. And you're, walking through a facility determining how are we going to secure these control system assets,

[00:11:26] Noah: yeah. Yeah, that is 1 thing that I really like is how different every single week is and getting to go out in the field and explore inside those panels, seeing how it works with working with the different companies and seeing how they work as a company as well. Some work better together, some not so much there's communication for some, there's not for the others.

[00:11:47] Noah: So, it's been a great journey so far, and I'm excited for more.

[00:11:51] Dino: Yeah. So have you seen any gaps in the different verticals that you've been working in? You know, as far as some that are doing better than others, that are further ahead in this journey?

[00:12:01] Noah: I mean, this might be an obvious answer, but in general, the ones that have compliance and are kind of required to. those are always kind of, whether it's like, pharmaceuticals, because they're very clean environment. that's a clean environment as well. So those ones that have, like, compliance, like regulations, I would say, are further along.

[00:12:19] Noah: That's not always the case, but in general,

[00:12:22] Dino: have you seen a lot of companies in this particular space? Working in the field, doing what you're doing.

[00:12:28] Noah: not necessarily. I mean, there's groups out there, but not exactly like what we're doing. to the extent. We haven't really came across a whole lot out there.

[00:12:38] Dino: So how are your clients receiving what you're doing? I mean, what has been, a good case or a bad case of what you've witnessed when you put these technologies in and you start uncovering this information? What kind of response you getting from the client side?

[00:12:53] Noah: I would say there's a mix of some that are truly invested and the output and some that a lot of the, invested ones are on the side. It's the controls engineer that sees all the information and it's like, wow, this is really helpful, but I don't have time to do it myself. And then there's.

[00:13:11] Noah: some that are doing it from compliance and are just doing it to do it because they have to do it. So I would say the guys. Prefer and, like, really appreciate the information and protection that they get over just, kind of the, I have to do it mindset.

[00:13:28] Dino: You know, we hear a lot about the whole IT OT convergence, you know, that, The fact that the plants are becoming more digitized and, now we're talking about AI and what's good and bad in regards to how AI can impact from a cybersecurity perspective, what kind of gaps are you seeing between those organizations?

[00:13:47] Dino: Right? I call it the ITOT collision because sometimes the relationships have not been very good. and we both know that I. T. doesn't spend an exorbitant amount of time on the plant floor and from an operational perspective. So what does that gap look like? Is it getting better? Yeah,

[00:14:06] Noah: is disconnected communication, whether it's just like, so a lot of the guys, 1, a lot of their stuff connected, but they don't normally plan and, implement the, so They don't have enough access ports and so now they have a struggle if I can't connect my stuff and that's it that planned it.

[00:14:25] Noah: So, I mean, there's disconnect and some of the clients that we go to. I mean, they're meeting for the 1st time. The guys. Sometimes. And so there's just not a whole lot of communication between the two, whether than it is just like the it, restricting the OT or the OT needing more, but it's not always communicated how they need more.

[00:14:46] Dino: I get it. I mean, market sectors would say that 60 plus percent of manufacturers out there still haven't. They're just beginning this entire journey, right? I mean, that's a big number. We think about 60 percent and, you know, maybe 30 percent or, doing something. Right, but not to the scale, where they're either building out of practice or be able to get through all of their manufacturing facilities that they have, then there's a very small percentage that actually has a strategy those groups are working really, really well together to formulate a cyber security.

[00:15:17] Dino: Hardening posture right for their control system. and let me ask this last question. So if somebody young wanting to enter into this arena, what advice would you give them?

[00:15:29] Dino: And there's a lot of people retired, right? I mean, you get the, if you've heard that peak 65, right? You're looking at 1 of them on the other side of the screen where you have 4 plus 1, 000, 000 people. Retiring every year for the next 3 or 4 years. That's 20 plus million people leaving the workforce, right?

[00:15:46] Dino: And, for every, 2 that leave, only 1 in change are coming back in. So, again, if you were looking to, influence somebody to want to enter into this arena, which we need people, right? We need all we can get. How would you entice them? Outside the obvious of the money's pretty good, right?

[00:16:03] Noah: Yeah, I would say, The idea of just learning all of it, just take an internship or something in a big manufacturing facility and just start learning everything you can about it and trying to just learn how it all works. and. If you really enjoy learning how processes work and problem solving, I think this would be a great field because there's so many different things.

[00:16:25] Noah: that are going on that need need to be improved or to solve for. so if you're looking to solve problems, it's a great journey to take.

[00:16:34] Dino: Yeah. Well, is there anything that you'd like to convey to the audience that I didn't ask you or something that you think that's important to tell them?

[00:16:42] Noah: I would just say, while you're in school, take as much time as you can to go above and beyond on just. Learning above what you're being taught kind of look more into. you learn something about a lesson, look at, Whatever John, or it is. Look deeper into it, and just take advantage of that time, because once you're working in the field, you might not have all that time to take advantage of.

[00:17:05] Dino: All right. Well, thanks, Noah. Have a good day.

[00:17:08] Noah: Thank you for having me.