Hidden Cybersecurity Vulnerabilities in Today’s Data Centers

CSI - 94 - Scott Cargill - Finished Audio

Scott [00:00:00] what are you doing? To protect your physical assets, what are you doing to protect your industrial control systems? . And finally one of the panelists, his, his response [00:00:10] was, I pray a lot. , I couldn't believe it.

Outro [00:00:13] Welcome to the Industrial Cybersecurity [00:00:20] Insider. In each episode, we dive into the world of industrial cybersecurity. Join us as we cover the latest trends, innovations, and practical insights as we talk with leaders. [00:00:30] And practitioners across the industry. Gear up and let's get into this week's episode.[00:00:40]

Craig [00:00:42] Hi, I'm Craig Duckworth.

Dino [00:00:44] And I'm Dina Bussi. And today we have a special guest, one of the partners at the design group, Scott Cargill. [00:00:50] Welcome Scott. Yeah,

Scott [00:00:51] thanks Dino. Thanks Craig. It's uh, a pleasure to join. Uh, join today.

Dino [00:00:56] So we're, we're, we're coming up on a year, a little over a year since [00:01:00] the design group has, uh, acquired a, a OT cybersecurity firm, you know, and design group being a, a manufacturing organization Right.

Dino [00:01:09] That had the [00:01:10] thought leadership and the vision to move into a cybersecurity practice. So maybe you wanna chat a little bit about that and then some of the Yeah. Articles. Yeah. I

Scott [00:01:18] can't believe it's, it's been a [00:01:20] year and, and I'll, yeah, I'll just take a few minutes just to reflect on it, but I did have the pleasure.

Scott [00:01:25] To lead that integration of, of Delta Technologies into design group. And [00:01:30] as I think back over the year, I couldn't have envisioned a, a better match, a better marriage in our companies. You know, design group, being a, a large system integrator, [00:01:40] uh, very obviously heavy into, uh, uh, manufacturing automation, um, but also.

Scott [00:01:45] That coupled with our, uh, industrial network and infrastructure [00:01:50] capabilities, combining with the cybersecurity engineering team that, that you and Craig brought over is, and we talked about this in the past, it's one plus one equals three. Um, and it's [00:02:00] really, it's just been a, a fantastic ride. I've learned a lot.

Scott [00:02:03] Um, and, uh, being with obviously, you know, sharing, uh, the office with, with you and, and Craig, uh, and the [00:02:10] rest of the team and, um, and I couldn't, I couldn't have asked for. A better experience. The team that you brought over, um, they're, they're hungry. Uh, they, they [00:02:20] understand the industry. Um, they understand the it, the ot, and, um, and not only that, they're just good people.

Scott [00:02:26] Uh, it's been really a lot of fun to have the team. It's part of design group. [00:02:30]

Dino [00:02:30] Yeah. The, the term that, that gem and I like using is a very versatile organism. Right. So, uh, you, you didn't spend a lot of time in the data [00:02:40] center arena. I, I have yeah. A little bit about that and

Scott [00:02:44] yeah. Yeah. So that's a, that's a great point.

Scott [00:02:46] Dino, um, you know, a, a design group, you know, [00:02:50] the, the data center business has boomed over the last two to three years, and, and we've only been doing data center, um, work for the last five years, but. As of [00:03:00] lately, and, and, and of course you gotta be living under a rock if you don't, if you don't read the news and hear about the, the AI boom and, and the reason why they're building so many of these data [00:03:10] centers so quickly across the United States or across the world.

Scott [00:03:13] And so we're Design group is, uh, we're fortunate to get involved. Um, and we are currently, and our scope is, [00:03:20] um, primarily around the, the data center building, the, the building management system, so getting cold air to the servers, um, and then also the electrical power [00:03:30] monitoring systems. And we know these data centers, uh, require a, a, a significant amount of power.

Scott [00:03:35] And so, um, yeah, we're doing work, Dino and Craig, across [00:03:40] almost all of the hyperscalers, um, in the US and, um, we've enjoyed the ride. So it's, it's been, it's been an exciting time for us in the data center market.

Craig [00:03:48] Yeah. Well, and, and [00:03:50] this comes on the heels I saw today. Uh, you know, I, for those that haven't seen it yet, Stargate Partners just announced that Foxconn, Ohio was the next massive site for [00:04:00] part of that OpenAI slash you know.

Craig [00:04:03] Oracle slash whoever, SoftBank and, and the, you know, their next phase of that $500 [00:04:10] billion infrastructure piece. So it just keeps growing every single day. Like, you know, like you said, Scott, every day is a new investment by someone [00:04:20] somewhere. Organizations in cities are, you know, lining up for it.

Scott [00:04:23] Yeah. And they're moving so fast.

Scott [00:04:25] You know, some of these buildings, you know, are being built in six [00:04:30] months. Um, and, and what's interesting is, you know, they're moving so fast. There's, there's things they're not considering, and one of those are OT cybersecurity. I mean, these are, [00:04:40] these are buildings that are highly automated and, you know, it's, it's just kind of ironic.

Scott [00:04:45] You've got these data centers that are, that are focused on, you know, AI and, and, and, [00:04:50] and these advanced technologies. But yet when you take a step back and say. What, what are they doing as far as their physical asset security [00:05:00] posture? It is surprising that very little is being done and, and so, you know, we see it as a, as a great opportunity for us, but at the same time, it's also [00:05:10] just, um, a bit surprising.

Dino [00:05:11] Yeah, I, you know, it's back to that whole ITOT convergence, right? And, and what we witness in the manufacturing space where there's, there's still [00:05:20] a gap. Between these, the, the people responsible for OT assets, whether they're, you know, the power systems and, uh, building automation, building management systems in these data centers or [00:05:30] packaging lines on the plant floor.

Dino [00:05:32] There's, there's still a gap between these IT and OT organizations that just has, it's not been closing at a, at a, at a rapid rate in [00:05:40] my.

Scott [00:05:40] You know, d you, you brought up something and you, you kind of talked about, you know, manufacturing. And it's the same use case, it's the same situation that [00:05:50] these data centers are that, you know, a food and beverage or a pharmaceutical plant where you, you do have this it OT convergence going on and, and you know, I was, um, I was at, I was at a conference.

Scott [00:05:57] It, this is really, you know, the timing is perfect. I was at a conference last week, it was a [00:06:00] data center investment conference and you had. The, the hyperscalers there, the usual suspects. You had, um, you had a lot of, uh, you know, smaller companies that are [00:06:10] investing in co colocation, um, data centers. Uh, and you had people from the entire supply chain there.

Scott [00:06:16] And one of the, one of the, there was a panel specifically, they were [00:06:20] talking about the, the modern operations of a data center. So. And we think about a data center, no different than a manufacturing plant. And like I'd mentioned before, there's a tremendous [00:06:30] amount of automation and, um, they were talking about actually using their own product, using AI to improve the operations of these data [00:06:40] centers.

Scott [00:06:40] And we all know the import, you know, and, and their, their service level agreements with these large companies, you know, are, I don't know what the uptime percentages are, but they, they, they're contractually required to have just [00:06:50] incredible uptime. And, uh,~~ uh, and so, um,~~ they were talking about using AI and just now starting to use AI to improve their operations.

Scott [00:06:58] And I, I asked a [00:07:00] question. I asked a question to the panelist, said, okay, so what are you doing? To protect your physical assets, what are you doing to protect your industrial control [00:07:10] systems? Specifically of my interest was the BMS, the Building Management System and the EPMS, the electrical power monitoring system.

Scott [00:07:19] What are you [00:07:20] doing to, to protect those control systems And, and, and they related network and, and there was five, five panelists up there. And first of all, you could hit a pin drop. [00:07:30] It was like a good couple of seconds to silence. And finally one of the panelists, his, his response was, I pray a lot. That was his [00:07:40] response.

Scott [00:07:40] And I, I couldn't believe it. ~~Um, so I don't know, just, ~~ it just blew me away. Um, I pray a lot as a response and, and they went on to say, you know, and, and kind of going [00:07:50] back to the kind of the correlation between. Data centers and manufacturing, the technology is moving so fast. You know, the, the servers, the power and the size of these, these [00:08:00] servers are moving so fast.

Scott [00:08:01] These building systems are having to keep up with this technology. And so these building automation systems are quickly becoming [00:08:10] obsolete, um, or they're quickly having to retrofit these legacy systems. And so they talked about how they're connecting more of these [00:08:20] legacy systems. So maybe some of the more, the more modern building management systems and they talk about, guess what, expanding the attack service for the bad guys.

Scott [00:08:29] Mm-hmm. [00:08:30] So it was, it was as if I was talking to a food and beverage manufacturing plant, but it was a data center. Um, they have the same challenges. In fact, they're probably further behind than many of the other [00:08:40] industries we, we work in,

Dino [00:08:41] in my, and in my view, and, and we talk a lot about this during the podcast that we do is, um. the folks that design and build the building automation systems, the power systems, I think they're gonna have to start bringing that cybersecurity [00:08:50] technology into the work that they're doing. I, I don't think you can rely so much on it to make that happen. As much as this OT ecosystem is gonna have to start [00:09:00] moving the other direction, in my view.

Dino [00:09:01] Right. Which is why the design group had the forethought of, you know, picking up and building a practice. For OT Cybersecurity, you know, in [00:09:10] order for us to be, as we're designing, whether it's packaging lines or a plant or a data center, and start looking at how we implement OT cybersecurity [00:09:20] technologies into those control systems that we're designing for the clients.

Scott [00:09:23] Yeah. And I wonder, I, I'm curious, I mean, why do you think that they haven't considered this? I mean, you walk to a [00:09:30] data center and it's like Fort Kns, the physical perimeter of these data securities are highly secure, getting in the building, highly secure, but [00:09:40] yet they haven't considered protecting their, their automation.

Scott [00:09:44] I, I, I, I wonder why that's the case. Any any thoughts to that?

Craig [00:09:47] I, you know, I, I'll go first on that. I, I think a lot of them. A lot of the [00:09:50] organizations that are running the clean rooms that the data is coming from, that's being sold to. Oracle or open AI or, or whoever's [00:10:00] using the data for the AI modeling on the market.

Craig [00:10:03] They're so focused on the data and not so much the [00:10:10] infrastructure that supports the data. So you look at the chillers that are cooling. The, the, the GPU processing racks that NVIDIA's providing. [00:10:20] You look at the chillers that are maintaining the building and you just take a step back and you think of the heat that those processors are [00:10:30] generating and the amount of minutes, and it's not hours, it's minutes that that data center can operate before it loses all of those.

Craig [00:10:39] [00:10:40] Hundreds of millions of dollars in process power, and it goes offline because if it can't. Keep a monitored temperature and keep it at a, an operating side, [00:10:50] but they're not thinking that. They're thinking, how do I ensure that the, the processing power is there and do I get this to the next level to run [00:11:00] those large language models and all of the AI machine learning.

Craig [00:11:04] The center's designed to do, not the functionality of how do I [00:11:10] maintain operational ability of the facility.

Scott [00:11:14] Yeah. You know, Craig, it's funny you say that because I, I, you're spot on. You know, I, I kind of going back to this panel that, [00:11:20] that I asked this question, those, I think those five panelists and, and three of them we're, we're talking about what we're familiar with, right?

Scott [00:11:26] Just protecting the assets. Protecting PLCs [00:11:30] and the SCADA and, and those sort of things. Um, but there's a, another, uh, you know, the other two panelists were responding to my question and they, they pivoted quickly about [00:11:40] protecting the data.

Craig [00:11:41] Mm-hmm. And

Scott [00:11:41] I didn't ask about protecting the data. I asked about protecting the assets, but I don't really think they really, truly understood the question, and [00:11:50] they just gravitated to what they know best.

Scott [00:11:52] ~~Right. So, I, I kind of validate your, your thought. ~~

Dino [00:11:52] Yeah. Because when it goes to those physical outcomes, you know what, what we're talking about, that's, it gets in that translation between IT and OT that just, [00:12:00] it gets missed. Right. Even with the technology, and we, we have one in our panel shop. You guys have seen it, where you've got these cooling systems, you know, we're talking about the building envelope, but now you got cooling [00:12:10] systems that are actually providing chilled water within the, the, the server platform.

Craig [00:12:16] Right

Dino [00:12:17] to, to and, and the technology behind that. And [00:12:20] those are control systems running that. But the, there are two very different, um, uh, practices, if you will, managing one is doing the data side and one that's actually doing the [00:12:30] physical outcome side. Yeah. Back to the it o OT convergence that sometimes just, it's still got some wide gaps at it.

Dino [00:12:37] Well,

Craig [00:12:38] you know, you look at [00:12:40] organizations that are, that are undertaking this, normally there is a, a GC that's responsible for making this built, building this building, putting up concrete walls. [00:12:50] They're putting the infrastructure in, and then they're turning it over to someone to install all of this high tech data racks with [00:13:00] GPUs and all this stuff in it.

Craig [00:13:01] And they're not, they're different. You know, there's a. Normally an IT middle layer in there that's responsible [00:13:10] for kind of the liaison, I guess if you wanna call that between the two. And they're focused all on that data layer because they don't [00:13:20] understand that control layer that's managing that. Dino says those industrial assets that are responsible for maintaining that building envelope.

Dino [00:13:29] Yeah, and that's the [00:13:30] gap you're talking about. It's the network. Right. Mm-hmm. That's usually the DAC and, and, and then I think when it comes to the handoff with control systems that's run on a [00:13:40] network, it's not necessarily running on the IT network. Right. And again, the, um, the, the disciplines on that side of the fence are not looking at [00:13:50] cybersecurity.

Dino [00:13:50] 'cause in their mind, they probably still think a lot of those systems are isolated. They're not connected, you know? Mm-hmm. And the PLC and or, and or other devices that they're using is that [00:14:00] stopgap measure? It's managed by somebody else. It's like the firewall, right? So if you look at the firewall and the IDMZ, 99% of the time the firewalls are managed by it.

Dino [00:14:09] [00:14:10] OT is not managing their own firewalls, right? And what, what the OT people have done is they've used assets that they own, that they're responsible for, that they pick and choose as that [00:14:20] segmentation device. So whether it's a jump box, A PLC, an HMI, with dual nicks in it, whatever the case may be, that's the way that they've separated this.

Dino [00:14:29] In a, in a, [00:14:30] uh, logical form. It's not a physical, uh, separation. It's a logical separation. Yeah. So there's still a pathway there. Yeah.

Scott [00:14:36] ~~You know, and, and, ~~and Dino, you, you mentioned, you got me thinking about another, [00:14:40] uh, conversation I had a couple of months ago. We were asking about cybersecurity and um, you know, his comment was almost like, [00:14:50] well, it told me that I shouldn't have to worry about that.

Scott [00:14:53] It was almost like, it, it was almost like, it's not my job to worry about that because I was told that [00:15:00] we're we're low risk. And then as we were talking more and more about it, um, you know, at the end of the conversation he goes, Hey, send me all your information. I'm [00:15:10] gonna make sure that that other controls leaders are educated on these threats.

Scott [00:15:17] And, and so in his mind, I think. It, [00:15:20] it, it was never even really a consideration because he didn't think it was a 'cause he was told it wasn't really a, a high risk.

Dino [00:15:26] Yeah. And I, and I, well in it, they lose sight of who [00:15:30] those end users are. Right. So whether it's the tech, the engineer, or the maintenance person's walking in there with their laptop, connecting into that environment or somebody remoting into that environment, [00:15:40] that that's the blind spot that it has.

Dino [00:15:43] And so they don't know what those applications are. They don't know necessarily much about the operating systems or the network, and [00:15:50] so they, they get further and further removed from really being able to assist on how I can improve that cybersecurity posture. Which again goes back to my earlier statement that the [00:16:00] OT ecosystem is gonna have to figure this out.

Dino [00:16:02] You know, where that that individual that's. Was told by it not to worry about it is their response should have been, I am gonna worry about it [00:16:10] and here's how I'm gonna go worrying about it. Right? Here's the things I'm going to do and I've gotta find people in my industry that are doing this right? And you, we all know who in our [00:16:20] competitive environment, how many of our, our.

Dino [00:16:22] Our colleagues and or competitors actually have OT cybersecurity practices within engineering firms, you know, manufacturing firms. [00:16:30] Yeah. Specialize in these, in these industries. Yeah. And it's a very short list,

Craig [00:16:34] right? Yeah.

Dino [00:16:35] Yeah.

Craig [00:16:35] Well, you know, you go back to something that you said earlier, Scott, in the [00:16:40] conversation about how these data center.

Craig [00:16:43] Environments are now connecting legacy assets and they're trying to, to, to figure this all out. [00:16:50] And as they do, they're expanding significantly that attack surface. So, you know, as you're trying to figure this out from an IT [00:17:00] perspective, you, you gotta realize that, you know, there's an entire layer.

Craig [00:17:05] Controls layer down below what you're accustomed to seeing. Yeah. That [00:17:10] now has vulnerabilities riddled throughout it because you've connected it to all of the IT assets that are running that data center. Yeah. [00:17:20] From a clean room perspective. Yeah.

Scott [00:17:21] And I think, you know, and people, it's, it's, it's funny 'cause we, we, you know, we obviously we're all very much in tune with what's happening in manufacturing and [00:17:30] I think, mm-hmm.

Scott [00:17:30] A lot of times people don't really look at a data center and think of it through that lens. It, it, it looks like it's just a building. Right. It's just a building. But you know, we know, [00:17:40] right? It's much more than a building just because you don't see bottlers and fillers and packaging lines and robots moving around.

Scott [00:17:48] It's, it's, you walk in a data center and all, you [00:17:50] just, you just hear you, you'd see a lot of lights. And you hear a bunch of humming, right? Mm-hmm. But you don't see all these moving parts in automation. But the reality is, it is, it is highly [00:18:00] automated. And if these cybersecurity, if, if a data center were to get attacked and they were to take their cooling system, whether it's liquid, cool, or air cooled.

Scott [00:18:09] [00:18:10] Offline, to your point, it would just be minutes before these data centers are shut down. Um, and and same thing with the electrical power. You interrupt that electrical power. [00:18:20] Yeah. They have a lot of redundancy and backup generation. Um, but that will only last so long and again. This, this, this disruption would be just, um, [00:18:30] would be terrible for these data centers.

Scott [00:18:31] Very costly. But I think it's because you look at a data center, you don't think of it as a manufacturing plant. You think of it as just a building, but it's so much [00:18:40] more than that.

Craig [00:18:40] Well, so the, the but, but if you take one step back from that, you look at the automation surrounding it. Yeah. The interior piece, the packaging line, the [00:18:50] bottlers, the fillers is, is a different.

Craig [00:18:53] Internal guts of the building versus racks and racks and racks and racks of NVIDIA processing [00:19:00] units that are making compute power. Right. It's, but that's, uh, ex exponentially more expensive. Yeah, [00:19:10] yeah. Yeah. It's crazy the cost of these things. So it would, you would think that it would lend to more.

Craig [00:19:18] Protection [00:19:20] around it because the cost of replacement. You talk about downtime. What does an hour of downtime cost in Pepsi plants or cook plants or [00:19:30] a car plants, something like that. What's an hour of downtime in a one gig data center that's producing AI compute power? [00:19:40] I, I wouldn't even know where to start, but it's a lot more than making soda or beer, I would think.

Scott [00:19:44] Yeah. And then there's probably penalties that go along with it, right. With, with, uh, these large, these large [00:19:50] AI driven companies. So, yeah. You know, and I think I, you know, and, and you know, Dino and, and Craig, you know, we've been talking with various, you know, other solution partners in the, [00:20:00] in this ecosystem and mm-hmm.

Scott [00:20:01] And you know, this, we're not the only ones talking about this. Right. And so I, I think, um, I think these hyperscalers and, and other companies that [00:20:10] are investing in data centers, you know, they, you, I can tell they're starting to get, they're starting to get educated here. And, and I do think that, you know, in the next year or even sooner, [00:20:20] you know, our hope is that these, these cybersecurity solutions they're gonna start getting, not patched in, but designed in.

Scott [00:20:27] And, and that's where I, I think [00:20:30] we're gonna see, um, some significant growth. And what we do is providing these cybersecurity solutions and data centers as they become, you know, more, more educated. [00:20:40]

Craig [00:20:40] Yeah, they definitely are. I'm talking to a. Uh, a client now that's, uh, let's call it a, a mid scale, mid-sized.

Craig [00:20:47] They're not, they're not one of the, the four or five large hyper [00:20:50] scales, but they've got a ton of data centers and they're very advanced. They're, they're building like as, as quick as they can put up, put them up, and they're doing it globally. [00:21:00] So they in various regions and they're trying to figure out the exact same thing.

Craig [00:21:03] And that's part of the conversation is how, you know, how do we make sure that we are addressing this properly? Because, you know, there's [00:21:10] one of me, I've got one person on my team and I'm responsible for security for the physical. Control layer for our entire global organization. And, [00:21:20] and there's me and we've got a thousand data centers or whatever that number is.

Craig [00:21:23] Yeah. Yeah. So no different than we see in, in a manufacturing site. They're trying to figure it out. But you're right, [00:21:30] I believe it's, it's coming slower than it should be. Mm-hmm. And I think that. We're definitely gonna see some changes in the [00:21:40] next 12, 18 months.

Dino [00:21:41] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think they'll follow just like it did, right?

Dino [00:21:45] When you talk about resource constraints or organizations that decided they weren't gonna invest [00:21:50] heavily in IT resources and they were gonna rely on managed services, third parties to help them. Right. And when it becomes, you know, when you get into these newer technologies and skill [00:22:00] sets that, that you need to acquire, and I think in the, uh, manufacturing industry and probably in the data center on the OT side, um, is.

Dino [00:22:09] You're gonna [00:22:10] have to look for organizations that have the scale and capability of being able to do that. To your point, Craig, you can't just have a couple of people, some who have never even been to some [00:22:20] of the plants, if any of them at all, and think they're gonna be able to really put together a cybersecurity strategy for, you know, 30 plants in your fleet.

Dino [00:22:28] Much less 30 data centers in [00:22:30] your fleet, and you got one or two people doing that, you know, you have to be close to those environments because sometimes they're unique, depending on whoever the OEM or the system integrator is that put in, uh, those control [00:22:40] systems. And then you have the, uh, the life cycle is different, right?

Dino [00:22:43] We're talking about stuff that's in place for, for decades, not just a few years. Right on. And so, uh, that's why you don't get the [00:22:50] patch levels, you know, updated in a consistent constant. And, um, organizations lose sight of that stuff, and the vulnerabilities just keep building, you know, because you're, you're not staying on [00:23:00] top of it.

Craig [00:23:00] ~~Yeah. ~~

Dino [00:23:00] ~~And you've only got a couple people, ~~

Scott [00:23:00] right? Yeah. And, and these data centers, you know, they, once they're built and operational, they're, it doesn't really require a lot of people to run these data centers. And, and in fact, a lot of [00:23:10] these, and, and what we, we've learned is a lot of these, you know, large hyperscalers, you know, they, they.

Scott [00:23:14] ~~The, the, the, ~~they're experts in, you know, the, the advanced technology around ai, right? And mm-hmm. And, and the actual [00:23:20] AI component and, and how that's being built and deployed. They're not experts on a manufacturing plant. We're calling it a data center. So they're, they're relying [00:23:30] on people like us and, and others to really maintain and operate those data centers.

Scott [00:23:34] Um, which, you know, we're in a great position to do that. But you know, this, the cybersecurity topic is just, [00:23:40] I just find it fascinating because. Data centers aren't something new yet. They're booming right now, but they're, they're not, they're not something that, you know, is brand new. So the [00:23:50] fact that, um, they haven't incorporated these OTs solutions is just, it's just, again, it's still kind of, just blows my mind.

Scott [00:23:56] But, uh, it's changing. It's changing rapidly. Yep. [00:24:00]

Craig [00:24:00] It's gonna continue to change too. You know, they're gonna look at, you know, the. How do they keep up with the technology? You've got some of the [00:24:10] most advanced technology on the clean side, and then you've got some not as advanced, although gaining momentum on the control space.

Craig [00:24:19] So how do [00:24:20] you marry the two back to that OTIT convergence? Yeah, digital transformation and making sure that you have the best of both worlds. Yeah. [00:24:30] But it takes a different mindset, takes a different skillset, and you know, you really have to look at it holistically. You can't be one sided [00:24:40] just the data side or just the building automation side.

Craig [00:24:42] You have to look at this holistically from a. A, an enterprise side, if you wanna think of a data center as an enterprise. Yeah. You've got [00:24:50] the whole, the whole piece of it.

Dino [00:24:51] ~~Yeah. Well, it's thought leadership, you know, is what ~~

Scott [00:24:51] ~~I, yeah, ~~I was just gonna talk about thought leadership, you know, and kind of reflecting back on the beginning of our conversation, um, about, you know, bringing the [00:25:00] Veta technology into design group.

Scott [00:25:01] I, I think, you know, if that didn't happen, um, I'm sure Design Group would be continuing to design and deploy BMS and EPMS [00:25:10] solutions across data centers. I can almost guarantee you we wouldn't be talking about this. And so having thought leaders like yourself, Dino and yourself, Craig, combined with [00:25:20] these, these automation solutions that we're deploying in the industry, like data center, um, I feel like we're sort of on the cutting edge, right?

Craig [00:25:28] Yeah. And kind

Scott [00:25:28] of going back to that one [00:25:30] plus one equals three, we're, you know, we're talking about this regularly now, and I think we're, you know, we're one of the, the forefront. You know, large sis that are [00:25:40] helping educate not only our clients, but educating the entire ecosystem. The entire industry.

Dino [00:25:45] Yeah, the industry.

Dino [00:25:46] Good point. 'cause you know, even some of our technology partners, you [00:25:50] know, struggle with how to, to take the technology that they develop and actually position it the way it needs to be positioned within their, their client base. Right. [00:26:00] They struggle with that also, which is why they look for partners like us to be able to help.

Craig [00:26:04] Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a great time. It's a great, it's a great place to be in, and, and [00:26:10] you're right, it's, it's changing rapidly and we just have to continue to educate on protecting and educate on, you know, how to design it in upfront. [00:26:20] You know, back to the, you know, do it now or do it again later, as Cisco would say often.

Scott [00:26:26] Yeah. Yeah, exactly.~~ Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, Scott, great conversation, ~~

Craig [00:26:27] ~~gentlemen. ~~

Scott [00:26:27] ~~Yeah, I enjoyed it. It was, uh, certainly a relevant topic and, uh, I'm sure this won't be the, the first time we'll be talking about this, we'll be, I, I think it'll probably be part of our daily conversations moving forward. Yeah, ~~

Outro [00:26:27] I think so too.

Outro [00:26:27] Thanks for tuning in to the Industrial [00:26:30] Cybersecurity Insider. To stay up to date with our latest episodes, be sure to click the follow or subscribe button now. And if you found this podcast helpful or have a topic you'd like us to [00:26:40] discuss, please leave us a review or let us know. Thanks again for listening.

Outro [00:26:44] See you next [00:26:50] time.