Podcast Interview with Alan Zhao Co-Founder/Head of Marketing of Warmly

[00:00:00] Hector: Alan, welcome to the Modern Masculinity Podcast. How are you, my man?

[00:00:06] Alan: Hector, thank you so much for having me. I'm great. I'm really excited about the opportunity to spend a little time with you in conversation today, and, excuse me, get to know your listeners a little bit better.

[00:00:17] Hector: Yeah, it is. It's fun to have these conversations, at least selfishly. They're always timely, and what I'm realizing and knowing as I'm kind of going through this is that more and more. Men are going through the same thing. And one of the kinda traditions we've built here on this show is instead of sharing about how awesome you are, and you've got a book, and we'll talk about it and all the cool things that you've done, we like to talk about what's real and what we're going through.

[00:00:44] Hector: Because I think as men, we oftentimes are so hesitant to share. Those things because of fear that it makes us look whatever type of way. And so that's kind of a practice that, that we've been doing. A, because I think it's fun and it makes me feel a little better, but I know that it also connects because there's other guys out there who are, are going through, through similar things.

[00:01:08] Hector: So as a, as a man, uh, Uh, yeah. I don't, we didn't get into before the call the family life, but a perhaps father or a partner or, you know, any of these roles that we as men kind of take on. What's, what's a challenge or, or, you know, what's something that you're going through that's, that's real for you right now?

[00:01:26] Alan: Absolutely. Well, I wear all of those hats as you might imagine. So I am a husband, I am a father, uh, to a 14 year old daughter who just had a birthday a few weeks ago. And you know, I think what I think of when you ask that question is, um, showing up for the people who matter in my life. And being there and being a supportive of person, being a source of, of presence, and uh, you know, kind of doing all of that right.

[00:01:54] Alan: Is, is, is a challenge at times because, um, You don't know what life is gonna throw you at any given moment. And it seems like the working models that we've had in the past for how to be men, who do these things are, are, are, are somewhat flawed or outdated. Uh, you know, it's, it, it, it's not enough to be the, you know, the strong and silent type.

[00:02:14] Alan: It's not enough to be, uh, the person who just kind of like goes out and makes a living. And then throws every other aspect of being a member of the family to all of the other members of the family. So, uh, you know, are you content to stand around and tell dad jokes? Are you content to, uh, you know, do whatever you can to not embarrass your children as much as possible?

[00:02:37] Alan: Uh, or is there more? And I've been spending a lot of time and energy in the space of the more lately. And, uh, it's, it, it, it's fascinating to me. And, um, I think I'm fortunate to have, uh, a small network of friends who are in similar phases of their life and at roughly similar ages to mine. And, and they're, they're, they're terrific people and they, you know, they, they, they bring a lot, not just to their families, but to other environments that they spend time in and, and watching them do that has been inspiration to me as well.

[00:03:05] Hector: Yeah, there's one of the themes that's come up a lot on this conversations is that the, that we're not living in our, our father or grandfather's time anymore. Right. With, with regards to any of those things, you know, parenting, uh, relationships, you know, providing all the game has changed completely. And what we're trying to do a little bit and, and what, what I'm seeing is that more and more men are, are trying to do is to rewrite that manual, right.

[00:03:31] Hector: And to, you know, provide some of these models. So, I'm curious though, I've shared a lot on, on some of these recordings, you know, my own challenges with being able to deal with all, I don't like to use that word deal, but, but the, the, the ability to navigate. All of those battlefronts, if you will. You know, I've, I've kind of related it to like Napoleon, who's, who's got all of these, these fronts that he's gotta fight and, and, and the, the, the skills that are required to be able to, to do that effectively has, has that, has there been moments or points or crises where, you know, you've felt that a little bit.

[00:04:18] Alan: Who hasn't, honestly. Um, there, there, there's no, uh, there's no rule that any of this is supposed to be easy. And, you know, I, I think that we can go back and talk about the way things were and, uh, the patriarchy and historical gender roles in this country and in society around the world. And yes, that system, that model worked really well for a great number of people.

[00:04:42] Alan: Uh, mostly men, but for a great number of people. It didn't also, and I'm not just talking about those who were subjugated by it, like, you know, there, there was a lot of unhappiness, a lot of unfulfillment, a lot of questioning. Uh, even I think among men of prior generations, you just didn't see it or hear about it as much because along with that, you know, solid provider thing, it was, it was kind of supposed to be easy or it was assumed that it would not be a struggle.

[00:05:07] Alan: And it is a struggle, you know, I think anybody who's walking around saying in, you know, in, in modern times in today's world, but they know exactly what's going on in their life and exactly what they should do at any given moment is probably delusional. And, uh, the only thing I can say that makes it easier because it's hard.

[00:05:25] Alan: Is that you don't have to do it by yourself. So I mentioned my friend group, I mentioned, you know, people in my family that I can count on when I need something. And I think having conversations like this helps. I think having resources like your podcast helps. And there are also peers and mentors and therapists and coaches out there, uh, who are available and, and, and, and necessary in certain cases.

[00:05:49] Hector: Yeah, I've, I don't ever like to pick on my parents, but I think they're generationally, I. They're a very good, uh, I don't know if foil is the right kind of word to use, but, but they're an emblem. You know, they grew up in the sixties. They were both born in 1960, and I think that they, they kind of, they, their Amer they made the American dream, you know, my, my grandparents were, were immigrants and, you know, they struggled and were very much in, in poverty.

[00:06:20] Hector: And so my. My parents bought the house. They got the picket fence. They've got the, the, the Roth ira, you know, my mom's got the pension and, and so I grew up. With this same ideal of you're gonna get the picket fence, everybody's gonna be home by five 30, eating dinner. And you know, it's almost like that, uh, you know, you've seen those memes of like the 1950s guys with like the slick backed hair and he's, he's got his briefcase and he's walking with his smile and the wife's all happy that she's home and dinner's made and the house is spotless and it's like, This ideal if we're, if I'm comparing myself to that ideal, if I open the door to my office, shit's everywhere, there's beads on the floor, you know, like the dishwasher is full and the di the stink is like, eh.

[00:07:17] Hector: It's just, it's totally not, it's not that picture. And I, and I, and I had to like put that. There was a very much like dying of that old like sense. And maybe it'll come back. Maybe it's just cause I have toddlers, but, but I, I found myself being frustrated that I wasn't living that ideal. And then I realized that maybe that ideal is not I ideal.

[00:07:41] Hector: I don't know. I'm in the middle of it. What do you think?

[00:07:44] Alan: Yeah, I think it was not ideal for, for many people. Uh, you know, I, I, I pictured Don Draper from Mad Men when you were talking about the guy with the briefcase, and we saw, you know, the unraveling of his family life in that show as expressed by people who are, you know, kind of living in, in modern times. Um, but that doesn't work for everybody.

[00:08:02] Alan: Uh, and maybe it doesn't work for most people. I don't know. Um, You know, I think about our situation and we're a dual income household and for the longest time my wife, who's a school teacher, has had the harder of the two jobs. And since November, 2019, I've been self-employed and working primarily from home.

[00:08:18] Alan: And she's been the one who goes out of the, uh, the house every day before I'm ready for work to, you know, to be useful and do things that matter in society and also collect a paycheck and. Our daughter is growing up in a world where she knows at least one man who does the grocery shopping and does cooking most of the nights and most of the laundry too.

[00:08:40] Alan: And, and we do that not because we're, um, You know, necessarily trying to make some kind of political statement, but more along the lines of like, where does it fit within? Who's capable, who's available? Uh, and, and not necessarily to just assume that it automatically falls to one person or another. So, uh, it's an arrangement that works for us, but not for everybody.

[00:09:01] Alan: We certainly in our community where we live now, you know, uh, among the fellow parents of children who go to my daughter's school, we've got dual income homes, we've got single income homes, we've got single parents, we've got, you know, all, all manner across the economic spectrum. And I, I think if there's one lesson to take away from this discussion of what masculinity is or how men are supposed to show up is there isn't a universal model anymore.

[00:09:25] Alan: And I don't really think there should be.

[00:09:27] Hector: Right. Well, what's interesting is that, yeah, I do a lot of the cooking. If anything is being cleaned, it's probably gonna be by me. And I'm, and there, I've had my own conversations about that and there's, that's been his own process. But, but, but also on the other side, I, I have my four year old son and I, I'm very conscious of trying to make sure that he also knows that yes, men clean and men cook, and men go hit the punching bag and men lift heavy stuff.

[00:09:57] Hector: We, you know, we stink from time to time. You know, like, like, like all of it, right? Like, like not, not either or, or just because you do one, you can't be the other. There's, don't know if that has been enough of the conversation too, right? Of like, you know, I think like there's the, there's always the idea of like the, the guy outside grilling, right?

[00:10:19] Hector: But, but is it possible for manly men to also, you know, Make good po you know, like the other stuff, right? Like to have range I think is something that is, is important to be bringing into the conversation now, to to include all of it, right? All of the various kind of flavors, if you will, and expressions perhaps is a better word of masculinity.

[00:10:44] Alan: I agree. Uh, and I think what it has to do with is really questioning those assumptions. And one of my favorite stories about how this often happens is this. So, uh, I've been vegan on a plant-based diet for 22 years, you know, since 2002. Long time. My, my whole family is, And it's like second nature to me.

[00:11:02] Alan: It's not, you know, anything that I even consciously think about most days because I know where to get what and kind of what I need. It's like brushing my teeth. Uh, but from time to time I'll go out for lunch or for dinner with somebody I know, a colleague, a friend, uh, who's a woman, and we'll be at a restaurant.

[00:11:18] Alan: Inevitably what will happen is, uh, she'll order some kind of chicken sandwich or something and I'll get a salad, uh, because of, you know, the aforementioned dietary preferences and coming out of the kitchen every single time. What will happen is she gets offered the salad and I'm like, Nope. That's for me.

[00:11:34] Alan: It's, it, it's like a running gag among people that I eat with on a regular basis. Cuz it always happens and it doesn't matter the age or the gender or the server either. It's just, it's just a thing. So I say question those assumptions. You never know who's gonna get the salad.

[00:11:50] Hector: Yeah, you, you don't, you don't ever know who's gonna get the salad. I, I'm curious. One thing that's come up in, I have a, a group of guys we meet every couple of weeks and we just, we kinda hold space for each other to, to dump whatever it is that's, that's kind of going on in, in, in our worlds. And, and one of the things that has kind of emerged is that when, when doing these, these per, you know, perhaps, uh, I don't even know.

[00:12:16] Hector: We don't even, we need to find new language, but the, the non-traditionally, uh, Masculine things, you know, cooking, cleaning, or there was even an example of a, of a guy who, you know, he didn't, he didn't drive. So any, anywhere he had to go that he had to drive his, his partner had to take, you know, his, his girlfriend had to take him.

[00:12:36] Hector: And that, the, the energies, because of that, you know, the, the driving is perhaps very traditionally masculine of a role or the, you know, the, the navigate, whatever. And that unless he did something to, to, to switch the energies, unless he did something, you know, to, to get back into that, you know, masculine, you know, whatever, that traditionally masculine energy.

[00:13:04] Hector: So in this example, he would like swoop her down and, you know, holder and gaze into her eyes, or, you know, be that kind of suave. Man there that unless he did something like that, that there was something that felt off that, that their, their relationships that, that their relationship just didn't, didn't gel or it didn't flow. As when he did that. And I, I feel that I, I've kind of resonated with that a little bit cause my wife is, she's a, she's an ass kicker at work and she's very hard charging and there's a lot of times where she's out on work trips and I spend, you know, fi four or five days at home with the kids taking care of the house and stuff and, and. And unless I do something like that, where to switch the energy or swap the energy, she doesn't like, like she's like, I don't wanna be around this, this wimpy, you know, depleted what, whatever. So I'm curious for you, like, is that something that where, you know, where are you with that? Does that resonate?

[00:14:09] Hector: Does that not, does that. Interesting, peculiar. What are your thoughts?

[00:14:13] Alan: You know, it sounds like the theme is, is, is dominance in some way, like, you know, there there's a desire, uh, or an expectation for us to take control, for us to be in charge, for us to dominate in some kind of way. And, you know, I, I, I think all of us have our own level of comfort with doing that from time to time as the situation might demand.

[00:14:35] Alan: Um, I, I think what also tends to happen is it can be assumed that we're going to do that. Even if we're not necessarily in the mindset or in the mood or in the, uh, in the habit of, of, of doing that sort of thing on a regular basis. So, you know, um, kind of along the lines of the, the, the conversation about the expectations around the salad.

[00:14:59] Alan: Uh, if you see two people walking together, who do you assume is in charge? If there's a working relationship or if you see two people together, uh, who do you assume, uh, has the louder voice in, let's say household decisions? Uh, it's not always the man. And it sounds like what you're asking is, uh, what if it's supposed to be at certain times or what if, you know, what if the expectation at home is that, that you kind of step up into that?

[00:15:27] Alan: Even when it doesn't, maybe it doesn't even feel like the right time.

[00:15:32] Hector: Yeah, it's it. Well, if, if we're kind of exploring this, I, I, Uh, as this happens, right? What's interesting is that as it's progressing, there's a, you know, as the weekend is going on, it's, it could be that the toddlers are just continuing to, to do what toddlers do, and, and my, my rope is, is kind of running out, but, but that there was, that there is. Yeah. And perhaps it could, it could just even be in the acceptance of it, right? In this, in this fighting of what am I, you know, there, there was a lot of that at the beginning. Well, what am I doing here? Watching the kids, and you're out there, you know, working, you're out there hunting and, and I had to, to sit there and, and. I haven't shared this much on, on some of the conversations, but, but this machismo kind of attitude that is so prevalent in, in especially, you know, I'm, I'm Mexican and Hispanic, and is, is so, so dominant in that culture that, that I don't even, I, I've had to unpeel some of these mindsets that I didn't even realize were programmed in there, there that were so found like foundational that it's like, why, why?

[00:16:45] Hector: Why am I getting, why am I getting upset that she's out working and I'm at home with the kids? Like, like, why do I get upset at that? Like, I'm, I'm sitting there trying to, to feel, figure out why my body is all hyper reactive, simply because she's at work and I'm not, you know, so, so that was its own kind of awakening, if you will.

[00:17:05] Alan: Yeah. And, and so then you're asking yourself, uh, you know, what, what, what part of me is being triggered with all of this, and where does it come from and what's missing? I. Uh, in this situation maybe that I crave in some way, uh, that I wasn't even aware of before I started having the thought.

[00:17:22] Hector: Yeah, it's, it, uh, it's, it's great in that regard because you start to, you start to assess, okay, what is it, right? What is it that's, that's causing that? And I think it's helpful because so many of our, so many of the challenges that we've had in our relationship recently stemmed. From, from that, and it would've been great if we could have gone back eight, nine, however long this period has been.

[00:17:47] Hector: You know, mu much longer than I would've liked and said, here's, here's what it is, dude. This is the problem. This is, this is where it's coming from. But it was a. It was like an onion, right? It's like in Shrek, right? It's like, it's like it was peeling back of with one layer. And I was like, okay. I thought that was a problem.

[00:18:03] Hector: I thought I'd figure it out and then, nope, there it is again. And it was appealing of another and another, and who, you know, it's probably to the fact of, I'm not even at the core of it yet, but, but at least, um, at least that's been a, you know, a, a. A journey that, that has helped, right. Is being open to, to that as opposed to, you know, a year ago I would've, I would've been pointing the finger outward and saying, no, the problems are out there.

[00:18:31] Hector: Not my responses to the, to, you know, whatever's happening.

[00:18:36] Alan: Absolutely.

[00:18:38] Hector: So, Let's get into a little bit about, kind of would love to talk about the book a little bit because I think it's, it's foundational. I think guys will, will really appreciate it. So go back to as far to the beginning, like, you know, as you think is relevant. And then let's start there and then just kind of catch us up on, on kind of what it is and, and, and how you think guys who are, who are out there, you know, Dealing with all this stuff might be able to apply some of the things that are in there.

[00:19:11] Alan: Um, okay, so I'm an executive and leadership coach, and I work with leaders at. Pretty much all levels of organizations. And one of the things that I noticed, uh, back a couple years ago now was that analogies were coming up in coaching conversations all the time. And it could be something that a client just kind of spills out as they're having a coaching conversation with me.

[00:19:34] Alan: It could be something that I. Thought of off the top of my head during a conversation and just threw it out there as a way of helping them reframe what's going on. Uh, or I might have been thinking about a coaching conversation in hindsight after it had happened and something popped into my mind, you know, that, that, that related to it in some way, by way of analogy.

[00:19:53] Alan: And so I was collecting these things for a few months during 2021 before I realized I've got enough to, to collect them into a book. So I wrote a book, uh, my wife, who's an elementary school art teacher, did some fantastic illustrations for it, one for every analogy in the book. And we have 52, there's one for every week of the year.

[00:20:09] Alan: And they're related to many aspects of leadership and things that people confront when they are leaders in organizations or or in life. So we talk about communication, we talk about mindset, we talk about relationships. And what I have found is that the analogy is a very powerful tool for just helping somebody do a simple reframe of the situation that they're stuck in.

[00:20:31] Alan: So it's hard to be stuck in something for too long if you start to see it a different way. And I think that's one of the real benefits that having a coach offers. Uh, and one of the ways that coaches do that is through analogy or metaphor. So you'll see that in the pages of the book as well.

[00:20:46] Hector: So what I'm hearing is that, well, I guess my, I'm curious, based on what we've talked about and kind of knowing your perspective, how, how is leadership different than what most guys might think or most guys might have grown up thinking that leadership is.

[00:21:07] Alan: Yeah. Well, I think, uh, there's a perfect parallel to what we were talking about in terms of men in the household. So, uh, I, I will come out and say as, as a man who has held leadership positions, uh, with, with, with fairly little controversy that there, there are still, the, the ranks of leadership in every type of organization are still overpopulated by men.

[00:21:29] Alan: Uh, we don't have the kind of representation of other genders that we need, and it's, it's been that way for, for too long. So all that being said, uh, it works differently than it used to, and I think most of it is for the good in that we don't have these top-down command and control, very directive, very hierarchical types of leadership as often anymore as we used to.

[00:21:50] Alan: So the idea that, uh, you know, you would come in. And your boss was somebody who was going to issue you commands and kind of direct how you did your job step by step and make sure that you were there all day and punch a clock. You know, still common in some industries. Yes. But in the kind of work that I'm doing with my clients, in those parts of, of the economy, it's, it, it's not that way anymore.

[00:22:10] Alan: It's collaborative. It is, uh, you know, decision making that is consensus driven, driven rather than completely top-down. And I think what is happening is that leaders are realizing they're becoming more successful and therefore the people they lead are becoming more successful when they recognize and actually voice the idea of not having all the answers all the time.

[00:22:33] Alan: Not being the expert all the time, not being completely in control all the time that, you know, leaders are human. We have questions, we make mistakes, we have faults. We don't always know what to do. And so old model is you gotta look like you're the smartest person in the room all the time. New model is you hire the smartest person in the room and have them work for you so that you can together get to the better answers than you would've if you were on your own.

[00:23:00] Hector: Yeah. It's the idea of control is, is a big thing that keeps coming up. I for sure, in this conversation, and it's, it's been a theme that's ran through a lot of these, is that, That is, is changing. Right. And so much of a, so much of the drive to quote unquote succeed was, I'd imagine driven by control, right?

[00:23:27] Hector: The, the ability, if I, if I move up this ladder, then I get to run the factory, right? Then I get to run the company and, and yeah. And that as. Businesses are evolving and things are becoming a lot flatter, you know, organizationally, hierarchically. I'd imagine that, that that drive is going away and it's, and it's instead replaced by is have, have we found what is on the other side of that?

[00:23:56] Hector: Do we know what the, what the, uh, what the perhaps positive side to that coin is?

[00:24:00] Alan: I think we do, and I think it's a spread of possibilities. And if there's one thing I think that, uh, certainly covid and the impact that the pandemic had on the working world, uh, but also this turn towards so many more people becoming self-employed as I have, is that we have a lot of different choices.

[00:24:20] Alan: And for some of us, they're choices that existed all along. And for some of us they're new, but your career trajectory and the way you get there, it looks very different now than it did 20, 30 years ago. And one of the things that I'm hearing fairly frequently from clients, uh, is what they don't want. So I think we've gotten pretty clear on what that is and our ability to make choices that affect our careers.

[00:24:43] Alan: And I'm hearing a lot, I don't wanna be the ceo, I don't wanna be the executive director. I'm content to be a couple of levels deep. I'm content to be an individual contributor because I know what the trade-offs are because I've seen my boss doing it and it's not interesting to me. And I say, how wonderful that you know that about yourself.

[00:25:01] Alan: How wonderful that you're not gonna be headed down a road that's gonna make you unhappy, versus just kind of chasing the thing that everybody expects you to chase.

[00:25:10] Hector: Well, yeah, I think that there was this, there was this fixation on being ceo, right? This fixation on being, um, even of, you know, a founder. I, I saw someone that they said that they were going to join a company as a founder.

[00:25:28] Alan: Hmm

[00:25:29] Hector: I thought that was interesting. I said, well,

[00:25:31] Alan: to join a company as a founder.

[00:25:34] Hector: Yeah. And I said, just, I said, okay. I think we've gone off the deep end here.

[00:25:37] Hector: But it's that, it's that, it's the, it's that association with rank and title and status that I think was so much a part of, um, So much a part of what we, at least I was taught as like a man, right? A man goes out, makes a lot of money, gets a beautiful woman, you know, gets really strong, gets big muscles like those, they do those three things and, and, and then if they don't, then they are less, or the ones that, right, like there's that intuit or that, that kind of built in premise that. If you don't, then, then you're not.

[00:26:20] Alan: Yeah. Well, I think, uh, you know, at the risk of getting slightly political, I see a bit of a parallel in terms of the way, uh, our, our, our country is seen. Around the world and, and what its reputation has been over time, you know, and if, if, if we're not sort of dominating, uh, the, the, the scene, somehow we've, we've become less than, or we've, we've fallen short of our, our founding ideals.

[00:26:44] Hector: Yeah, and, and I. I would imagine that I've seen it happen personally, and I'm curious how you've seen this happen in the professional space or if you have seen this kind of thing. But, you know, as my wife was working more and I was, was home with the kids more, a friend was like, you know, a good friend and he meant well and, but he said, oh, you're playing Mr.

[00:27:08] Hector: Mom now. And it was kind of like a jab, right? And. I'm wondering if there is a, a professional equivalent that is holding guys back from, from being, you know, because at, at that moment I was like, Hey, Dick, just like parenting here. You know, like, what am I, what do you mean I'm being a dad? I'm being Mr. Dad here.

[00:27:33] Hector: You know? And, and had I not had. Such a, a firm grounding in who I was and what I was doing. I might have taken that as like, well, dang, maybe I shouldn't be doing this. Or, or maybe that turns into resentment for my wife, or, or, you know, it could have gone a a totally different ways other than I just threw it back at him and told him that he was a dick, but, But, but I'm wondering if that is happening in the professional world or it could be happening where, where, you know, we're, we're holding men back from being those genuine, authentic, compassionate, whatever, whatever the other side of that leadership, you know, coin is.

[00:28:12] Hector: Um, what do you think?

[00:28:15] Alan: I think it's possible. Sure. Um, you know, a, a lot of the conversations that I end up having around vulnerability in the workplace are, are with, with men. There is a fear there that, you know, we could show too much. We might actually, you know, display ourselves as emotional human beings or something along those lines.

[00:28:32] Alan: Uh, and I see the other side of it as well. I, I see, I see, uh, you know, people of other genders being not as successful as they could, because the expectation on them is to either, uh, be more or less male in a way. You know, I think we all have, have probably seen or heard the story from somebody we're close to about, uh, you know, women in the workplace, for example, being told that they, they, they will not advance, they can't succeed because they're doing, they're being too much this or too little.

[00:29:03] Alan: That that's not the sort of thing that tends to happen to men in the workplace because there is an assumption that there'll be a certain way. Uh, and for the most part, I think it still kind of plays out like that.

[00:29:16] Hector: Yeah. Yeah. I think that the, the, the vulnerability part that you bring up is, is huge, and I hear it coming into more of the. You know, the lexicon, but it, it might only be because I'm, I'm hanging out in areas where, you know, that that is, is becoming more, more. Okay. And I think our, our world, as you mentioned, is becoming in, in kind of increasingly divergent in that regard.

[00:29:44] Hector: But, um, I'd love to go back to this analogies because I think that they're helpful Bec, you know, men are, are, are. We have so many different, you know, places that we could be playing, whether it's in un playing is, is how I would like to look at it. But where we could be challenged, whether it's in our relationships or our health or at business or, you know, with, uh, with our kids.

[00:30:09] Hector: Um, are there any favorite analogies or favorite ones that you kind of go back to off more often than not when you're dealing with, you know, some of these dad, husband, entrepreneur kind of problem? You know, I don't wanna call problems, but challenges.

[00:30:24] Alan: Yeah, I think the one that comes to mind, um, when you tell the story is not one that I made up. Uh, and not one that's in my book, but it's one that we all know, and that is the idea of securing our own mask before helping others. So, Uh, you know, the, the, the, the image of course is from the airplane. And if you're traveling with a small child or somebody who needs your help, you've gotta get your own oxygen flowing before you can help them.

[00:30:49] Alan: Otherwise, you know, neither one of you will, will survive. And I think of this in the context of, of, of men and men and families and, and what they're responsible for and what, you know, what everybody depends on them for. And you wanna kind of, Strike a balance. So you don't want to be the person who just kind of checks out.

[00:31:12] Alan: And you don't wanna be the person who's, you know, got their feet up on the couch watching Netflix or something, while everybody else in the family is like doing all the things that make a family go. And at the same time, I think it's important to know boundaries. I think it's important to know limits and when you're depleted, what that looks like, how you see it coming, and how you kind of recharge and how you make space to recharge.

[00:31:33] Alan: So, uh, think about what is necessary to make that happen in your life on a regular basis. And it's different for everybody. Think about what brings you joy and, uh, think about things that you do or think about or, or work on that are not part of your family, that, that still need to be part of your life because they give you energy.

[00:31:53] Alan: And try to carve out the time and space for those things, not at the expense of the other things that you're responsible for, but in addition to and as a way of kind of facilitating everything else that you carry and that you're responsible for in life.

[00:32:08] Hector: Yeah, it's a great analogy and I think it's a, it's because if you think about it in that moment, it's, it's really compressed, right? So I'd imagine if you're ever in that kind of kind of moment, you, you really only have a few seconds. And so if, if you. Or doing what I would imagine I would do in that moment, which is start fiddling with my three-year-old, my daughter, right.

[00:32:27] Hector: Just fiddling with her thing. If I, if, if I do that and it takes too long, you know, you're not gonna like outgo me and then out goes everybody. And when we, you know, kind of expand that and extrapolate that into like a, you know, a more real life scenario, I think the same thing. We get caught up. And we get, we get lost and we get, we think that, oh, we can just, let me just fix this real quick.

[00:32:51] Hector: And then that real quick turns into a lot longer than we thought, and now we're burnt out and now we're sleep deprived and now we're screaming at 4:00 AM You know, it's like, it's a very slippery slope that, um, That I think we, we, I know I rationalize myself out of right in saying like, oh, I'm, I'm helping, I'm, I'm doing this for, for them, or I'm fixing their problem, or whatever.

[00:33:19] Hector: When in the long run, right. That, that's, that's actually what's, what's what the, what is keeping everything, you know, the way it is perhaps.

[00:33:29] Alan: Yeah, for sure. For sure.

[00:33:32] Hector: Um, 52 weeks. Is there a reason that you guys landed on, like, I love the idea of, of, uh, you know, it being something that people can kind of do, you know, throughout the year, I, there was one year where I read 50 books in a year and I was just, It was great.

[00:33:50] Hector: I learned a lot. I implemented and integrated nothing.

[00:33:54] Alan: Yeah.

[00:33:55] Hector: I, I was exposed to a ton of awesome ideas. I did absolutely nothing. And so I really like this idea of like, you know, how have you kind of broken it up? Was there, was there any intentionality to that or is there, is there any insights that you have seen from people who have kind of taken it in that kind of bite-sized piece or like, you know, I'd love for you to just talk about that a little bit.

[00:34:18] Alan: Yeah, absolutely. I think a couple of ideas come to mind. One is on my side, as the person who put it together. And I realized the space I was in might have been a little different from the space of the typical leadership development or current events type book that I'm used to reading. And I read a lot of those both, you know, for, for work and for pleasure.

[00:34:38] Alan: One is that there's tons of leadership books out there. You know, tens of thousands of them. If you pull up, you know, your favorite online bookstore and take a look and do a little search. Two, we have a lot of models. Four describing how the world works or how the principles of leadership should apply to your life.

[00:34:55] Alan: And I was not feeling especially compelled to create another one of those. And three, At the time that this all came together, I did not see myself as having the expertise or the attention span to do a deep dive, to do research on one particular topic and come up with, you know, the end result of hundreds of, and hundreds of pages on that topic.

[00:35:15] Alan: There's plenty of authors who do that for a living, and they do it brilliantly, and it's just not me. It's not the way that my brain was working at the moment when I started on this project. So what I wanted was a collection of bite-sized pieces, and that's what ended up. So there are a bunch of different ways you can use this material.

[00:35:32] Alan: You can read it cover to cover, and some people have, uh, I have certainly my editor did. Uh, you can also keep it on your nightstand and read one or two of them a night until you get through, you know, bit by bit, piece by piece. Uh, it could be bathroom reading, it could be a, a reference that you keep on your desk for situations that come, come up.

[00:35:50] Alan: And you're gonna look up, you know, what analogies might apply to that situation as you're having the, the, the situation develop. So I wanted it to be kind of multi-use, multi audience, but also not that sort of 300 page heavy lift that, that, that might have a little bit of trouble sticking to your brain.

[00:36:06] Alan: Uh, only because I have great respect and admiration for the people who do write books like that. And I didn't see myself as being able to, to do something similar.

[00:36:15] Hector: Yeah, well it's great, uh, awareness there and I think that that bite-sized nature is, is really helpful. Um, is it available on all the, the popular bookstores or where, where should people go to best to, to get it?

[00:36:27] Alan: Absolutely, you can visit the soup book.com for kind of the rundown of where it is available, but pretty much anywhere. You can go on a website and buy a book. You'll find it, uh, and it's available in print and also ebook. Um, the ebook version is, is very, very inexpensive. I did not do this project to make a lot of money.

[00:36:43] Alan: I was interested in getting the material into as many hands as possible, so kind of hard to beat the immediacy of, of the ebook, although I have to say when the thing was printed and it first arrived in my house and I could hold it in my hand, that was, that was pretty amazing.

[00:36:57] Hector: Yeah, I imagine so. Um, so cool. And what, and what about, um, is there any other place that people can go get connected with you, whether it's online or, or websites? Um, anywhere people can follow up.

[00:37:08] Alan: Absolutely. My, my website is peaceful direction.com. That's the hub for my coaching practice. People can find me and contact me there. Uh, I'm also on LinkedIn, which is the only form of social media that I use at the moment.

[00:37:20] Hector: I love it. My last question for you, Alan, is to you, uh, what does modern masculinity mean to you?

[00:37:30] Alan: Modern masculinity to me means something that is evolving. It means something that we need to keep having conversations about so we can keep understanding it, rather than a fixed model that I think too many of us have been living with for too long. Uh, and it means being uncomfortable sometimes. It means making mistakes.

[00:37:47] Alan: It means doing things that other people would not expect of us, uh, and perhaps, uh, violating the expectations of others in some way. So I think it means, uh, Nothing that is, is, is strictly defined with a definition that's gonna stay that way for a while. And what I look forward to is continuing the conversation, uh, with those who are interested because I think it's a topic that's, that's close to me and, and maybe close to a lot of us.

[00:38:14] Hector: Yeah. Lots of flavors. Lots of flavors.

[00:38:18] Alan: Yes.

[00:38:18] Hector: We appreciate, we appreciate all y'all for. I guess I can say all you guys. Say all you guys, I'll be all right. No one's gonna, no one's gonna get too upset here, huh uh, so we appreciate you guys hanging out with us. If you guys enjoyed today's episode, we would love a rating, a review, wherever you get your podcast.

[00:38:34] Hector: If you know someone, if you know a guy who's going through something, maybe they need some support or they're just looking for some connection, uh, send 'em this episode and then, uh, I'd love for you guys to connect with Alan and myself on LinkedIn and Twitter for myself as well at Hector podcast. But we appreciate you being part of the tribe.

[00:38:54] Hector: We'll see you on the next one later, y'all.

[00:38:56] Alan: Thanks.