How Rob Haynie Helped Clients Unlock 6.5x More Value From “Forgotten” Assets

Rob [00:00:00] Your second biggest asset, theoretically, is your life insurance policy. Your home is your first—and if you don't own a home, then your life insurance policy is your biggest asset. People don't realize they own their policy like they own their home.

Hector [00:00:15] Hello, and welcome to another episode of the How to Scale a Business Podcast. My name is Hector Santiesteban, and I’m your host for today. Our special guest is Rob Haynie, someone who has spent a lot of time building—not only business—but building people and organizations in the life insurance space, and is one of the most tenured and successful people in the industry.

Hector [00:00:34] Rob, thanks for hanging out with us today.

Rob [00:00:36] Thank you for having me, Hector. I appreciate it.

Hector [00:00:39] You’ve seemed to have been great not at one thing, but you’ve followed a path and really taken it to the umpteenth mile. Looking back on your career, what were some of the big milestones? And when people ask you, “What do you do today?” what’s the short answer?

Rob [00:01:05] That’s a good question. Early on, we were kind of in a brand-new industry, so we didn’t really know where we were going or how we were going to get there. We were younger, and we were working for a gentleman. He passed away and his wife took over, but we kept the business going and kept the idea alive that we were going to educate people about our business.

Rob [00:01:30] At the time, most of that was done by cold calling and mailing. The internet really wasn’t big yet. Then we had a hiccup in the market: what we were helping people do at the time was sell a life insurance policy when they were inflicted with a terminal or chronic illness—mainly HIV and AIDS.

Rob [00:01:55] Around ’97, ’98, AIDS was “cured,” more or less. If you took the medicine in a cocktail combination, you could live the rest of your life—no different than if you had diabetes and were taking insulin. So we were in survival mode, and during that couple of years we decided to make a move and break free.

Rob [00:02:20] We blew the company up, if you will—organized in an organized fashion. Some people stayed in Orlando; other people went to South Florida like we did. We started our own company, which at the time was called Life Settlement Alliance, and later Life Insurance Settlements.

Rob [00:02:45] We decided—along with a lot of others; it wasn’t just me—I have two great business partners—that we were going to educate a different type of person. We were going to go into the financial services sector and talk to them about life insurance policies they had on the books. Could they evaluate those that were getting ready to lapse or surrender and determine if they'd like to look for a life settlement? That’s really how we grew the business.

Rob [00:03:20] The key point is: we went from doing a lot of volume to doing hardly any, then we moved up and did a lot of volume again.

Rob [00:03:35] Jump ahead to the financial crisis—we saw a hiccup again. The credit markets froze. It got a little more difficult to buy policies—not necessarily to find people to sell them. In a recessionary climate, people are getting rid of assets as opposed to buying new ones.

Rob [00:04:05] The funny part is: when I look back at the individuals that worked with me back in ’93, ’94, ’95, the great majority of them are still in our business today.

Rob [00:04:22] What we all learned collectively was: put your head down, keep going, keep believing in what you’re doing, and you’ll find your way back to solid ground. We’ve had a couple series of those. We had COVID. We went through that; it taught us different lessons.

Rob [00:04:50] It taught us that life insurance is, in fact, a luxury. When you think about financial assets side by side—your mortgage, your medical insurance, your car insurance, and on and on—at the end of that rainbow is life insurance. That’s not really necessary. If you don’t really have the money to do that, a lot of people look to liquidate it, to use that capital to do other things.

Rob [00:05:25] We climbed out of COVID, and as we sit here today, we have a really weird world we’re dealing with. We don’t know where we’re going.

Rob [00:05:40] But what we’ve always maintained is: people buy life insurance for a series of reasons at the age they buy it—mainly protection in case a spouse dies, the mortgage gets paid, the kid’s college fund continues to get funded, etc. But now you’re no longer 35; you’re 70, 35 years later. Do those reasons exist anymore? For most, they don’t.

Rob [00:06:15] The life insurance companies want to tell you, “The only option you have is you can let it lapse or surrender it.” They don’t tell you that you can do this—and there’s a reason they don’t. So it’s up to us.

Rob [00:06:40] I had this conversation with my wife about a week ago: I treat my day and my mission no differently than I did 32 years ago, because I still think we’re in a business that’s still in its infancy—almost like it hasn’t started yet—because the awareness isn’t there.

Rob [00:07:05] So when people ask, “What do you do?” first of all, we don’t sell anything. Working with me doesn’t cost anything unless we find you an offer, and then there’s a commission—but you’re going to approve that commission. The goal is to educate: to put it in people’s minds.

Rob [00:07:35] Someone could be 50 years old right now—not able to sell their policy—but they have that information. Twenty years from now, they might be in a position where they want to sell their policy and have that option.

Rob [00:08:00] And it matters because when you’re working with thousands of financial professionals, once a settlement takes place, it’s usually about six and a half times more than if you were to surrender or let it lapse.

Rob [00:08:25] If your surrender value was $25,000, when you sell it it’s about $150,000 on average, roughly. That money comes back to the client. The financial advisor who told the client about this option usually gives that to the client, and they put it to work in something else—an annuity, helping fund a long-term care policy, whatever.

Rob [00:08:55] That’s found money. And when you’re in sales trying to sell something—which isn’t us, but it is them—the first thing you need is money. Without money, they’re not buying anything. This money’s just sitting out there.

Rob [00:09:20] We know our industry buys about $4B a year in death benefit collectively. We also know $112B of death benefit goes into the garbage every year for people over 65—on top of the $4B we buy. That’s why I say I think I’m in a business that hasn’t started yet.

Rob [00:09:50] The goal is to educate. It’s easy to build with people who come to work for me now because they see I’ve been doing it for 32 years. They know it works. We make a great living. We’re not sitting in the second row of the presidential inauguration, but we’re doing okay. And as long as we continue to get our message out in as many ways as possible—including podcasts—I’m going to continue to do it.

Hector [00:10:25] The reason I love having someone like you on the show is there are so many listeners who are not in the life insurance industry, and there are so many parallels and lessons they can take.

Hector [00:10:38] Without minimizing it too much, I’m curious what sort of business you’re in. People say, “We’re not in the X business, we’re in the people business,” or “This isn’t a widget business; this is a sales business.” If we apply that frame to your career, what business are you actually in?

Rob [00:11:05] We are in the life insurance business—that’s how I’m licensed. We’re a one-off because we only can sell life insurance policies in our business. That’s what we sell, if that makes any sense. Sometimes in Florida it’s called financial services; life insurance is underneath that.

Hector [00:11:28] When you wake up in the morning, are you thinking about life insurance, or are you thinking about people on the team, growth, networking? What drives the business—what lever are you constantly pulling to move it forward?

Rob [00:11:50] All the above. I think about everything—that’s my problem, and that’s a good one to have. But it’s education. This is an education process.

Rob [00:12:10] I get up every day and think, “What can I do to position both myself and my company so that if somebody wants to know what a life settlement is, they look to us?”

Rob [00:12:30] Here’s something interesting: AI has become pretty big, in almost any aspect of life. In our business, AI affects life expectancies and underwriting—anything related to insurance policies, due diligence.

Rob [00:12:55] But I also learned that AI is influencing the “Google overview” when you search “What is a life settlement?” There’s a Google overview at the top, and it’s constantly changing and learning.

Rob [00:13:20] Through our PR firm and our association, they told us it’s hard to be relevant in AI if it’s not true. AI is trying to pull credible sources and create content that’s believable—not just editorial pages, but facts, case studies, court rulings, etc.

Rob [00:13:45] So I asked myself: if you go to Google or any chat tool—ChatGPT, Claude—and you ask, “Who’s Mr. Life Settlements?” it says me. I didn’t do that, but because it’s a fact, I’m going to take advantage of it to build a parallel platform—my company over here, and “Mr. Life Settlements” over here—so both can capture results and build belief.

Rob [00:14:25] What also surprised me is: 85% of people who get that Google overview never leave it. They don’t go to sponsored ads; they don’t go down to organic. So the old game of ranking matters less. And there’s no direct way to monetize that top part because no one is paying to get there.

Rob [00:14:55] My focus now is: get more relevant content out into the world—surveys, studies, case studies—things you can’t argue with. I’m writing a short book right now with a history of my life in this business and all the reasons people told me why it’s not a good idea to explore a life settlement opportunity. I compiled the list—and then I turn the page and the list is blank, because there isn’t a good reason.

Rob [00:15:35] I’ve asked in front of thousands of people: “Give me one reason why it’s not a good idea, because you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.” Even if someone learns their policy is worth a lot more, sometimes they don’t sell—it becomes like a savings account. They know what it’s worth if they need it later.

Rob [00:16:10] All we’re trying to do is: how can you honestly compare your options when you don’t even know what one of the options is?

Rob [00:16:25] So I get up every day and think of new ways to tell the same story in a way that’s more interesting than yesterday. I don’t really change the message. I’m going from more words to less words. My presentations might be six or seven slides—if I even do slides. It’s more Q&A, because that’s the only way you find out what people really want to know.

Hector [00:17:05] You mentioned it being an education business, and it seems like you’re always evolving the medium and the messaging as technology shifts. You probably picked the three decades with the quickest transformation. It’s cool to see you continuing to learn even today.

Rob [00:17:30] You have to. You’re in the same business.

Rob [00:17:35] Most life insurance agents that have the policyholders we’re looking for are older—like me. I’m 60, going to be 62 in June. They’re even older than that. Some don’t even have emails. They don’t know how to send a text. There’s no sophistication whatsoever.

Rob [00:18:05] But they’re fizzling out and here comes the new generation—more involved in the internet, more involved in LinkedIn. I want to be ahead of them. I’m sure I’ll never be as ahead as I wish, but that’s why I have other people on my team who help.

Rob [00:18:35] This podcast format is the best format because it’s evergreen. My business doesn’t change so much in two years that the same thing won’t be relevant. And your audience—there’s somebody there. It doesn’t have to be someone who’s 75 with a policy. It could be somebody’s daughter who just had a conversation with their parents about moving out of their house, assisted living, and they’re looking for money.

Rob [00:19:15] People don’t know their second biggest asset is their life insurance policy. And in 1911, that’s when our industry started, theoretically. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said that life insurance has the same property value as real estate. It’s yours. I can give my house to whoever I want; I can give my life insurance policy to whoever I want. But you’re never told that. You’re made to feel trapped, and the only way out is to give it back.

Rob [00:20:05] I call that a monopsony. If you and I bought a commercial real estate building and were told it’s ours, but when we want to sell it we have to come back to the original seller and they tell us what they’ll give us—and that’s it—that would be insane. But that’s what life insurance companies want: one way in and one way out.

Rob [00:20:45] The reality is: you can gift your policy to your church, your school, a rescue center—whatever. It’s yours. You can throw it out. You can quit paying for it. All these tools are available. But the one thing they won’t tell you is about us.

Rob [00:21:20] We’re regulated by the same Department of Insurance, so the rules are stacked against us.

Hector [00:21:30] There are a lot of companies that face a similar issue where the lack of awareness is so deep you’re starting before baseline. What lessons have you learned there? Do you focus on certain parts of the market, or tailor the message in a certain way so people are willing to open their minds?

Rob [00:22:05] Great question. Take the RIA world and broker-dealers: they have a fiduciary duty to do what’s in the best interest of their client. By them not doing life settlements, it violates that fiduciary duty.

Rob [00:22:25] Here’s an example. A broker-dealer rolled out life settlements, approved them for all their reps. One of their RIAs, when asked by a client, “What are my options?” said, “You’re best off just surrendering the policy.” The surrender was about $20,000.

Rob [00:22:55] Two weeks later, the client saw a TV ad: “You can sell your policy.” They called, and found out they would have gotten somewhere between $1.2M and $1.4M. The policy was already gone—surrendered.

Rob [00:23:20] They sued. The broker-dealer got a ding even though they educated their base; the RIA was gone. The client came out better because of damages. And now you’ve got FINRA and all those organizations monitoring the securities world. So when you want to get someone’s attention, e&o coverage and fiduciary risk gets attention.

Rob [00:24:00] Advisors will say, “Oh, we never knew about life settlements.” But they take continuing education every two years for their insurance license, and there are always questions about it. They might be wrong or inaccurate in the course, but it’s in there.

Rob [00:24:25] It’s easier to repurpose those dollars from a life settlement into another product than to let it go. Some of it is laziness—they don’t feel like they have time—but they don’t have to do anything. They just give us the name, fill out the application, and we do everything.

Rob [00:24:55] Full circle: I’m constantly thinking, “What else can I do?” The only thing I need to be doing is educate, because the more I educate, the more deal flow we see.

Hector [00:25:15] You’ve got a really well-positioned service. It allows you to focus on educating and helping people, and you’ve leveraged systems that let you add value in a way that becomes a no-brainer.

Rob [00:25:35] We try to frame it as being their back office for settlements. We’re a hole in the wall you throw a settlement through, and we push it back out. If it gets an offer, we can communicate with the client directly, or communicate with you—whatever you want. We don’t have thousands of deals every day, so we can do everything.

Rob [00:26:10] The hardest part in our business—and I doubt I’ll ever solve it—is modernizing customer service at insurance companies. They do not care about speed or service.

Rob [00:26:30] During COVID, you still had to fax things into the insurance company. You fax it into a machine somewhere in the middle of a giant corporation, someone takes it to someone, they fill it out.

Rob [00:26:55] When you request medical records from a doctor’s office, sometimes they literally put the records in a manila envelope. If it’s too much information, they cut both sides out and tape it together and mail it to you.

Rob [00:27:20] New York has cybersecurity and due diligence rules we must comply with. So everything we get—medical records, insurance information, personal information—is encrypted and uploaded, sent to an encrypted server on the other end.

Rob [00:27:45] I’ve testified about this and said: “You do realize the records we encrypt come in the mail from the doctor’s office, right?” There’s no clean custody. We shred what we can, but it is what it is.

Rob [00:28:10] Here’s the difference: for sales, they’ll have a state-of-the-art presentation, zip files, movies, everything. For customer service, it’s hold forever. If they need money, they’ll fly a drone down a coal mine to swipe your credit card. But to get a question answered, they won’t.

Hector [00:28:45] I’ve got two more questions for you, Rob. First: if people want to connect with you, learn more about the upcoming book, and I believe you have a podcast—where should they go?

Rob [00:29:00] They can go to my website: www.lisettlements.com. They can call me personally on my cell phone: (954) 599-4433. And my email is rob@lisettlements.com.

Hector [00:29:20] Amazing. We’ll link all that up in the show notes.

Hector [00:29:25] My last question: in your opinion, what is the secret to scaling a business?

Rob [00:29:35] Surround yourself with people you like to work with—people that have a high degree of energy and ethical standards, and a no-quit attitude. And when you have a bad day, realize tomorrow’s just around the corner. Don’t think about it too long. Move on.