How Matt Hepburn Evolves with to Google's Changing Landscape

[00:00:00] Hector: M y p fam, I want you guys to give a very, very warm welcome to Mr. Matt Gilley. Ah, that's like the fans

[00:00:08] Matt: I hear them

[00:00:09] Hector: Yeah. So I remember I did that , on a call one time and people were like, what is that? Like? They just totally, totally missed, , totally missed. And I was like, that looks rather weird.

[00:00:18] Hector: Now if you didn't, catch

[00:00:19] Matt: I really hope there's a big audience right now.

[00:00:21] Hector: It's just huge. They're all sitting by themselves. In the a room alone. So that's where they're

[00:00:27] Matt: that's what we podcasters like. Matt, , your show is the Life Shift podcast. You're also a teacher kind of full-time. That's kind of your, day gig. But I mentioned in the intro that you are on this kind of transition here where your show's just starting to make a little bit of money to where this is not totally just a hobby, right.

[00:00:45] Hector: And you're in that kind of point. taking it a little more seriously here. So catch us up on, on kind of where you're at, what's going on, and kind of what you do and, and fill us in on some of the gaps there.

[00:00:54] Matt: All right. Well my show is the Live Shift podcast and so on it. I have candid conversations with people about the pivotal moments that have changed their lives forever, and it really stemmed from my own personal experience and which. , I think gives me a really strong why. And it ties me back to it every time I create a new episode with, a guest and kind of helps me determine who my guests are and what we're gonna talk about.

[00:01:19] Matt: And I'm gonna probably keep coming back to the why, because I think that is the reason for this journey and the reason that I'm going so hard into it. And the reason that I love it so much. So I launched in March, 2020. and release weekly, and I have, my episodes are like 45 to 60 minutes long, so they're a little bit longer than maybe others that you talk to Hector.

[00:01:42] Matt: But with those episodes, I try to really narrow down on a particular moment in time that change that person's life. So as we've been going around or through all these episodes, I hear from listen. talk about how that particular episode, or one particular episode really made them feel a little bit less alone, which to me is kind of like a check mark.

[00:02:03] Matt: That's it makes me feel like I'm doing what I intended to do. All along, I've been connecting with people like yourself and others on LinkedIn and Twitter to learn more about the podcasting industry and figure out 1:00 AM I. What I'm supposed to be doing, right? Because there's so many rules, or I don't know if there are rules, but so many recommendations out there.

[00:02:24] Matt: And so I've kind of had to find my own way because I don't feel like my podcast fits in certain prescriptive models of this is what you should do next. And throughout that, I've had other people kind of recommend that I. Create a subscription type model for the show, and I was very apprehensive about it because I'm very much someone that I understand that podcasts are free, I guess, and people don't expect to pay money.

[00:02:51] Matt: So in my mind I wanted to make sure that I was able to give a value beyond what value I feel like we're already giving in each episode. So I made a Patreon page Maybe five months into my journey, and it took eight, nine months for me to actually publish the page because I didn't feel the confidence in am I giving enough value with whatever tiers I'm creating.

[00:03:13] Matt: So once I figured out what kind of value that I could give, I launched it and then reached out to former guests to create bonus episodes of after the recording. How did it feel to share your story? Did you hear any feedback from anyone? Those kind of questions, kind of just following up, has anything changed in your life?

[00:03:30] Matt: And those are kind of the added value that I feel is most valuable on the Patreon tier. So I'm about three weeks into it and have a couple handfuls of Patreon subscribers.

[00:03:41] Hector: Those are just for the Patreon feed.

[00:03:43] Matt: the bonus episodes. Yes.

[00:03:44] Hector: Will those ever hit the regular feed?

[00:03:47] Matt: I don't know in my journey

[00:03:48] Matt: what to.

[00:03:49] Hector: I really like that though. If we can kind of use it as a case study or someone, kind of looking outside of it. People always are challenged by veering off of their, cadence or their typical, what their show is.

[00:04:01] Hector: And what I think you've really done is found a very. Natural addition of what does someone who really enjoys my show, what else are they going to enjoy? And, and although that may not fit on that feed, that's like the D V D, behind the scenes, the extras, right. the reunion episode for the bachelor or whatever.

[00:04:23] Hector: Right. That's a really. Thing, and I don't know if you looked at other models and said, okay, here's how that applies, or if that just came kind of natively. But I wanted to kind of affirm and commend that. Cause I think that's a really good, that you did there.

[00:04:36] Matt: It took a little bit because I listened to a ton of podcast. I know that a lot of them have subscription based models and they offer bonus episodes, and I know, I have a tier that, I will release them early and without ads because my hosting company has ads in my episode. So is a little bit of value there, but with the bonus episodes, it's kind of the reason it took me like three or four months to actually press the publish button.

[00:05:03] Matt: I was like, what can I naturally do? I don't want to offer three quarters of an interview on the main feed and then here's your whole episode. Cuz I feel like I'm tricking people in that sense. Right? So I wanted something of value. So it did take a while to figure that out, but I naturally want to know feedback from my guests as far as like what did it feel like to share your story?

[00:05:25] Matt: Some of my. This is the first time they've ever publicly shared their life shift. I've actually had people come to the recording and go, I know I was gonna talk about this, but I've been listening to your episode and I'm wondering if you'd be comfortable with me switching it to something I've never shared before.

[00:05:43] Matt: that's a huge honor, right? And so I'm naturally curious about those moments. So the bonus episodes again, Feed into my curiosity, but I also agree with you in the sense that a regular listener that's kind of really into the show would be extra interested in kind of a recap or something that one of the former guests has to say about their experience or what's happened since.

[00:06:07] Hector: During that time where you had created up your Patreon account, but you hadn't quite published your page yet, what was going on there? What happened? were you learning, did you just shelve it? Is it, were you kind of paying attention? Or if someone doesn't feel like they're quite ready, What are some things that they might be able to do to kind of walk that path a little bit?

[00:06:27] Matt: I think there's two things. I think one. To your earlier point, definitely understand what is a value that aligns that you can provide. So you don't wanna make something crazy that doesn't really fit. maybe these bonus episodes six months from now end up on the public feed and that like, it was an exclusive, for a certain period of time.

[00:06:46] Matt: But I think that was one thing that kept me, like I really needed to dig deep to figure out what can I offer. That is not going to be crazy. It's not gonna be selling, a t-shirt or, something like that. What can I offer that people that regularly listen to the show might consider as a, as a value add to their hard-earned money that they're going to?

[00:07:08] Matt: Give me monthly. So that was part of it. Another part of it was just confidence, right? I think so many of us that are hobby podcasters and, get really into it and we wanna move further, it's like that imposter syndrome shows up. Do I have what people want? are people going to be willing to hand me that money for what I'm offering?

[00:07:28] Matt: But someone. close to the time that they pressed publish. Someone reminded me, cuz I think I naturally kind of, what's the worst that can happen? That kind of runs through my head. But someone was like, what's the best that can happen? People will actually do it. What's the cost to you if nobody signs up and there wasn't anything, right.

[00:07:45] Matt: There was maybe some time in development, but once I realized, you know, like people might actually. . I just pressed the published page and shared it, and now I have people that are getting an exclusive feed with early episodes, no ads and bonus episodes.

[00:08:00] Hector: I don't think you did this intentionally, but it's an interesting. in my capitalistic mindset, to place ads on your show, not because you're gonna make necessarily any money on them, but to now create an incentive to go to the Patreon, I had never considered that.

[00:08:17] Hector: But is that something that ran through your head or something you've seen other people do?

[00:08:21] Matt: Yeah, I mean, to be honest, The ads are there originally in hopes that, one of my episodes would go viral and I would make $5 for a six month period. that was part of it. But it does allow me that additional layer of value add, right? That nobody has to hear. The kids' bops commercials that play in the middle of, some episodes and.

[00:08:43] Matt: Actually, that's kind of a funny conversation that I have with some of my friends that listen to the show. They're like, oh, guess what ad I heard today on your show? so yeah. Part of it is like, I realize that that's something that allows me to give ad free, but also knowing that I won't always have ads possibly, depending on which hosting company I go with.

[00:09:02] Matt: that's why I did the early release as paired with ad.

[00:09:07] Hector: Yeah. If you don't know Matt, he's like the most giving person that I know, I, I know that he's not being sinister with his ad placement. I wanted to, disclaimer that, but you put a lot of intentionality into your levels and kind of the different types of offerings, and I think that you exceeded your expectations, at least in terms of how well the launch.

[00:09:27] Hector: but I think that was a tribute to probably the time that you spent into making it really valuable. Were there any other things that you thought through, whether when it came to levels or emotions , anything else in that process that you thought really helped?

[00:09:38] Matt: I think it was always important to me that if someone is committing to a monthly payment, That they were gonna get something that was worthwhile. Like there's one tier on there that they just don't want anything. They just wanna support the show. Cuz I realized there are people like that.

[00:09:54] Matt: They don't want to add another r s s feed to their thing and maybe they don't listen every week, but they still wanna support what I'm doing. So there's something like that. then there were things that I didn't think that people were gonna sign up for honestly, but other people were like, we have these on our show.

[00:10:07] Matt: Like I. the top tier people can get like a shout out on two of the episodes. And so now this adds another layer of for me to, do each week with the episodes. But that kind of gives them the value that they're seeking, but also puts the responsibility on me cuz I think so many of these are just like, I need to make sure that I show up every week, do a good job as a host of the show, but also.

[00:10:31] Matt: Do a great job editing and do a great job marketing it so people can hear it and do a great job with the intros and, saying people's names correctly and those kind of things too. So it does put another responsibility on me, which I like because it keeps the value of my show at a level that I want it to be. I think that there are a lot of helpful people. In the podcasting space, I think there are a lot of people that are maybe performative in a way in which some of the information that they share comes from a sense of like, I'm trying to show you that I am an authority in this space.

[00:11:04] Matt: And so I've gravitated towards the people that are just willing to talk through something. How did you do this? Did you really do it? this top five list of things to do says, or did you manipulate that list? Does it make sense for your show? Do I have to do this for my show? Those are the kind of conversations that I've kind of tried to create with other podcasters instead of, Google tell me what to do.

[00:11:27] Matt: And then it feels very much like if I don't do it, then I'm doing it wrong. Rather let's like come together and like brainstorm ideas and make both of our shows.

[00:11:36] Hector: I'm curious both selfishly and also because we mentioned it in the intro, but Matt is a big part of our new podcast, AMA program. He is the heart of our organization. But what is it that, we are doing differently there? That you saw enough in kind of me or what we were doing before that you think is gonna be different

[00:11:58] Matt: I think it's the ability to lean into the, group and that. I might not have the best ideas and you might not have the best ideas despite having podcasts that are continuing to go on. And some people have podcasts for years, but they might still need help. And I think the best help comes from when people are coming together and sharing those ideas without feeling silly that they're doing it a different way or they're not following whatever model someone says that you have to follow.

[00:12:24] Matt: So I think what's unique about podcast a m A is that we've termed it. think you termed it that the group is a guru, and I really think that's it. That we all come to a place, we've had these live sessions now, and everyone is sitting there offering these ideas, taking notes, thinking about things in a different way just because someone else has said, here's how I did it.

[00:12:47] Matt: It doesn't mean we have to take everything that they did and duplicate that, but maybe there's a little piece that's like, oh, that would fit for the life shift. I think I'm gonna try that on my next episode. And so bringing this group together, I think that's what's unique. It's not, here's the 10 things you need to do to have a successful podcast.

[00:13:02] Matt: Again, like is a successful podcast? You and I have had this conversation and a successful podcast for me, for someone like my show, of course, I would. lots and lots of people to listen to it, but honestly, my end goal is that each episode helps someone feel less alone. Right? And so that success to me, on a very broad level.

[00:13:22] Matt: And so some people may also feel that way. And I think there needs to be a space where that's okay and where we can have these conversations. Maybe it's something that's just filling your cup every day, and that's what you need for your mental health to just create a podcast that other people like, and it's not being number one in the technology space, you know, whatever that may be.

[00:13:39] Matt: So what's unique about the group that we're creating. that we're all gonna learn together and learn from each other's mistakes and learn from each other's. Successes.

[00:13:47] Hector: there's something to that group. And the idea that the group is the guru. and that was something that in one of the, first masterminds that I started, we coined because first off, my insecurities is that I had, massive imposter syndrome about being the expert and why would anybody ever show up to something that Hector does?

[00:14:04] Hector: But secondly is. . we've all been on those calls or we've all been on those trainings where someone is just barking at you that this is the way that it's done and sometimes it's, the quote unquote expert or the, presenter and then sometimes it's not, and it's even worse when it's an open group and there's, one person giving all the ideas because I think that there's no one size fits all, especially in.

[00:14:27] Matt: Yeah, it's challenging. Someone like myself launching without anyone else around really. I know I did this through a class, but we were really isolated in our silo and it was kind of like, read this book, follow these instructions, Google stuff, and then they figure it out. But like I definitely felt that a lot of the advice out there, didn't fit.

[00:14:50] Matt: Like I couldn't do it, and I didn't wanna feel like I was not being authentic to whatever my mission was. I didn't want to feel like I was failing because I wasn't following rule number four, whatever that may be. I like the idea that, Like you said, we don't all have to follow the same rules.

[00:15:06] Matt: We can learn from each other and pull out the pieces that best align with what we're doing, but also like we're close enough that say you came up with a new cover art or episode artwork or whatever, and you're like, Hey, what do you think that we're close enough that I could. , I don't like it. Like it doesn't resonate, you know?

[00:15:24] Matt: And to have that authentic connection where, you now trust that I'm being serious. I'm not telling you it sucks, but I'm telling you there's, probably another way that we can portray what we're trying to do in this artwork. And I think we need more safe space like that to just collaborate and make each other better instead of competing against each other, which I think the podcasting community is different in that way.

[00:15:45] Matt: I don't feel like there's a lot. Competition in that sense, but helping each other get better, I think is my goal.

[00:15:51] Hector: Yeah. the conversation part of it is so important because especially with, this particular type of medium, the feedback I think is, , the medium of podcasting allows for so much more of a, collaborative aspect because, unlike a painting or a sculpture or something, the listener or the, viewer maybe is accounted for, but for a podcaster, you really have to consider your listener.

[00:16:14] Hector: that's what you're doing is putting on performance or an experience for them. And I think that sometimes that's hard to do alone.

[00:16:20] Matt: Yeah, and we're also very attached to whatever our idea is, especially someone that has a show like mine that's personal base. It's driven by personal history, and I want to draw that out of other people. We're very close to it, right? And so we might not see. The areas that aren't hitting and the things that aren't happening, even in my journey, I've had to learn because other people have given me this feedback that I need to learn to say no.

[00:16:45] Matt: To people that are pitching themselves for my show. If I don't get them in the right space before recording because my listeners have told me, look, your show is a life shift. We need to focus on those pivotal moments. And there are other shows that can do storytelling that are other shows that can give you my life history.

[00:17:02] Matt: And so, I'm so close to it and I wanna connect with everyone that I probably wouldn't have thought of that on my own maybe, but having someone that felt comfortable enough to tell me is what I needed to grow to be better.

[00:17:15] Hector: Yeah. you've also done, , your day job is not teaching podcasting, but you're teaching, and so you've been able to kind of bring that idea of a curriculum to the program. What some of your thoughts when you came to, putting into a, kind of a crash course.

[00:17:29] Hector: Everything that someone needs to know when they're, getting going.

[00:17:32] Matt: I think that scaffolding of learning is probably the most important thing, and that's just kind of layering learning on top of itself. I think oftentimes in a world of creation, we're told, go do this, and then it's like, a silo thing and it's not, and then the next week do this, but. the next week should really be pulling in elements of that first week.

[00:17:53] Matt: And so, in an idea of podcasting, maybe your first week is really talking about honing in on, who your target audience is, right? And then every week after that, you're always coming back to that, or you're determining your why. , like what's driving your show. every time you do something else, you're thinking.

[00:18:10] Matt: what is my why and who are my people? So that could be artwork, that could be music, that could be anything that comes after it. So scaffolding of learning is super important. It's not that you first have to come up with your target audience and you never think about it. It's not that you create your artwork without thinking about anything else.

[00:18:25] Matt: And so I think that, yes, you should have this educational journey or crash course. And have these opportunities to kind of think through these things, but we also need to draw the connections. You need to connect the dots between weeks, it's more of a map than it is kind of a linear ladder of, activities to do.

[00:18:43] Hector: that's what I really enjoyed. About what the way that you structured it is that is a progression, a very clear progression from A to B to C. And that way, , it's very cohesive.

[00:18:54] Matt: I think that may add to that in the learning experience. What's different, I think about podcast AMA is that. We'll have this quote unquote crash course, right, this eight weeks of things you should do. It's not everything that you should do. it's not. Include everything that every podcaster should do.

[00:19:11] Matt: But what it's going to do is going to open the door for learning and -understanding, connecting these dots, and then we have the opportunity to create that community so then we can further the conversations about it and dive deeper. So it's like there's two components and it one doesn't exist without the other.

[00:19:27] Matt: At least not in my mind or in my heart. I feel like you need that safe space. To talk out the questions, like, here's what I'm thinking. and if everyone's comfortable enough to be like, Hmm, did you think about this instead? and have that safe space because that's what's gonna make us better.

[00:19:43] Matt: If we could all take a sheet of paper and write out these things and without any feedback or any kind of collaboration, it might really be terrible. Right? But if we have this other space where we're all kind of in it together and we're trying to all make each other better, It far enhances some kind of curriculum could could give you on its.

[00:20:01] Hector: Yeah, and I think that's another thing that we. Kind of glossed over is that it's a very dynamic program in the sense that we're putting together checklists and some resources that you guys can do on your own, but then you're also gonna have the opportunity to come together in, small groups and groups and learn from some, really high quality quote unquote experts or people who have had a lot of experience.

[00:20:19] Hector: But then you'll also get a chance, Similarly have those conversations about these things, which I think is gonna put it all together. So program starts January 2nd, so I think this episode is gonna come out right before then. So if you're listening to this , come join us. It's gonna be fun.

[00:20:33] Hector: we're gonna go deep. and also we're gonna make sure that you have everything that you need. I mean, think that's the biggest thing that Matt and I have, have come together on is, is providing the support for. That, we needed and wanted when we were getting started and had to kind of, put together on our own.

[00:20:46] Matt: Well, we still want it. I think the c. It is so essential too. I think for me selfishly, I'm excited about that the most because we're all like-minded, right? We all wanna do this, we wanna have this great podcast, we want to really connect with our listeners, but if we can all just like get in there and help each other out, I think that's the most exciting part for me.

[00:21:07] Hector: Yeah. Go to podcast ama.com. By the time that this is out, it'll be ready. Podcast ama.com. And you guys can get signed up. Matt, where should they go? Find out about you and if they wanna hang out with you more.

[00:21:19] Matt: Sure. If you wanna check out more about the Live Shift podcast, it's just www.theliveshiftpodcast.com. That will allow you to connect with me on all the socials. It gives you all the information. Highly recommend listening to episode 11. So that story really just tells my why and why the life shift exists.

[00:21:37] Matt: So, yeah, come join me.

[00:21:39] Hector: Cool. Matt and I connected on LinkedIn as well. That's where you'll find me the easiest. , we're chasing down that doctor. We're chasing down Dr. Hector. We're chasing him down, so we're coming for you. also on Twitter at hector underscore podcast. . Hi. You can find me there, guys.

[00:21:55] Hector: Thank you so much for being part of the NYP Fam. We'll see on the next one.