How Jefferson Langley Grew His Business Narrative Retail and The Shepherds by Putting People First

[00:00:00] Sean: And our question, our mandate was, could we identify whether there was a DNA or some sort of blueprint on why some projects, some investment opportunities failed and others succeeded even if they were in the same sector or the same geography?

[00:00:15] Hector: Hello and welcome to another episode of the How to Scale Business Podcast. My name is Hector San Esteban, and I'm your host for today. Our special guest is Mr. Sean Penrith. He's the CEO of Gordian Knot Strategies and among other things with climate and finance and, I'm sure we'll get into that, amidst all the other sort of projects and, and businesses that you have your hands in.

[00:00:36] Hector: So Sean, thanks for hanging out and spending some time with us today. Yeah,

[00:00:39] Sean: be here.

[00:00:40] Hector: I know, I'm sure it's probably a tough question for you to answer, but when people do ask, what do you do? You know, you can kind a straightforward answer or you can kind of give, you know, maybe the answer that you believe in your heart of hearts, what is an answer?

[00:00:53] Hector: Sort of that question.

[00:00:54] Sean: The short answer is, we mobilize capital to affect impactful climate solutions.

[00:01:01] Hector: I would imagine it's probably always been an important topic, but it seems to be, you know, something that is, getting more awareness and getting more attention. maybe not as much as you would would hope, but to give us the, maybe the highlights of how you got into that sort of industry and, business and why that that sort of became, not, not your, some of your life's works, but at least takes up a big part of it.

[00:01:24] Sean: Yeah. well first, a, a quick note on the, popularity of, the job description that I have. it is true five years ago. When I said to people, you know, I founded it and run a climate finance consultancy, they would say, what's that? They literally know. Very few people understood it.

[00:01:41] Sean: Fortunately, the, term climate finance is, becoming, more commonplace. in terms of the description is as to how I ended up, the short story is, I sailed across the Atlantic and went around cape porn and then, and returned back to Argentina where I had a business with, a very good South, south American friend of mine.

[00:02:02] Sean: And, it was a very lucrative business. it was South America. It was kind of loose and fast, I would say. And, I got to a point where I, got nervous when the telephone rang, and it wasn't that we were doing anything illegally, I just wanna be clear, but it just didn't feel meaningful.

[00:02:17] Sean: While the money was great, I suppose there wasn't a, a real purpose behind it, even though it was nice at that moment to have the resources. And so I decided to return home to South Africa to do my MBA. I started a business, a glass recycling business, which we ended up having three factories.

[00:02:33] Sean: One in South Africa, one in Europe, one in America, it was the recycling business that set me on this path of essentially being a responsible citizen. And, I sold that business and moved to Portland, Oregon. Where, I got into energy efficiency, high performance, green buildings, and then into climate, then into the carbon space, then into the impact investing space.

[00:02:57] Sean: And the reason I kept pursuing it was because it, it felt like it was purposeful. I think that was a very key thing for me where when the telephone rang, I didn't. I didn't jolt, I was actually keen to see who was, who was giving me a call. and so there was a really, a very nice alignment between , the impact I was seeking to contribute, , and the sector that needed help.

[00:03:19] Sean: So it's a very far cry from what I was doing back in POIs airs, in the nineties,

[00:03:24] Hector: one of the. Let's call it challenges that I think a lot of businesses run into and a lot of business leaders is finding that alignment between what drives them and, and sort of what is viable in the marketplace. When you were looking at different options or, you know, when you were sort of sunsetting you know, this other business in South America, what was your process, thought, process in determining that yes, this, fed your purpose, but it also was something that could be profitable as well?

[00:03:53] Sean: that's a really good question. so I've had nine different businesses. I would say pretty much hands down. Each one of them has been driven. But the need to solve a particular issue and my thought process. So we have a functional beverage company, for example, as well as climate finance. I started two businesses in the same year in 2018, and I'll use that as an example because it typifies sort of how I approach things.

[00:04:23] Sean: I practice yoga, pa, esa, and I was doing it. Consistently have been doing it consistently, but I kept on losing muscle mass, so I figured, okay, I'm, I need to supplement with protein. Try to go and find clean protein out there. It's a nightmare. As you know, everything's got unpronounceable ingredients, all sorts of sugars, and I was like, this is ridiculous.

[00:04:41] Sean: I can't be the only person who's looking for a functional, clean product. At that time in 2018 at least there wasn't anything. So I was like, well, we'll start a business. And so we started Mindful Proteins. Our first beachhead product is a tattoo protein water, which you drink after your workout. It's grateful Muscle recovery and so I would say that is how I've approached the businesses.

[00:05:04] Sean: It's solves the need and then structure a business model around it. That makes sense.

[00:05:10] Hector: I think that that's sort of the thing that connects and unites all businesses is that essentially, at least you know, the good ones are the ones that last, they're all out there looking to solve problems, and then it comes downstream from there in the, you know, nine that , you've started and also in, in some of the firms that you advise.

[00:05:30] Hector: Sort a framework or is there sort of a foundation set of things in all business?

[00:05:39] Hector: Can either classify them to this or it's an order of operations to sort of, you know, it's a process and a system that sort of fixes the business regardless of the industry or product that they're providing.

[00:05:51] Sean: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have actually spent a number of years on this very topic. your question's interesting.

[00:05:57] Sean: I'll tell you why. So, Several years ago, we conducted research, we were funded, by the Walton Family Foundation and contracted by Conservation Finance Network. And our, question, our mandate was, could we identify. Whether there was a DNA or some sort of blueprint on why some projects, some investment opportunities failed and others succeeded even if they were in the same sector or the same geography.

[00:06:22] Sean: Why was this the case? And I was very excited to take on this project because I realized that us examining these projects that had received impact funding. I wanted to crack that nut to see if there was a pattern, but I was also very interested because I knew potentially that if there was one, there might be a broader application to businesses in general.

[00:06:46] Sean: So we spent a year doing the research, interviewing the project teams, reading all the progress reports, trying to figure out like we mapped all the, the metrics. We, were highly caffeinated for 12 months. and in the end, we actually did discover there was a pattern, which we boiled down to a very powerful framework, that consists of seven elements.

[00:07:05] Sean: When we finished it, we released a white paper and, I started using this framework with our clients, our, impact investing clients, not just for framing. These are impact clients that wanna deploy capital responsibly, and they wanna make sure that their capital's delivering both impact and returns.

[00:07:23] Sean: Okay? So this isn't concessionally investing. They actually want, you know, market rate returns. And so we use this framework, predictive analytic framework to help them identify which were the winners and which were the potential duds so that they focus their due diligence on the optimally position projects.

[00:07:44] Sean: it has proved to be very successful. We've now turned it into an online platform called TRA but here's the fascinating thing. So while it worked in the project context, I started looking at businesses because a lot of our clients don't always want to invest in a climate solution project per se.

[00:08:00] Sean: They actually wanna invest in a business that's doing something. It's either a climate tech, business, a measurement, reporting and verification business, a ratings business, whatever. and so when our clients came to us and said, can you give us a sort of a perspective on company A, B, and C?

[00:08:14] Sean: I used this framework to determine whether or not I thought, whether I could give them a recommendation. That's a long answer to your question. but the truth is yes. the seven elements are. The first element is, the problem that they're attempting to solve, is it widely recognized? Is this systemic and is it the scalable problem to solve?

[00:08:34] Sean: So lots of times we find a solution in search of a problem. the second one is, the practice or the technology or the intervention actually market ready? Many times they're not. the third one is, is there alignment on co-creation? And what we mean by that is if you drop, a project in Northern Ghana, for example, and you've never enrolled a community or you deploy a, new video editing software and your user base.

[00:08:59] Sean: You've never socialized this product with your intended target constituent that are, successful for the success of your product. So there's no co-creation. I've got reams and reams of examples. You know, Google Glass was a good example of that, where, the product was not socialized, co-created and adopted by the target constituency.

[00:09:17] Sean: So it's a real problem. The next one is obviously the, standard one, which is the team, the partners, the. the requirements of the, project or the initiative, are they clearly mapped to the core competencies of the teams? Lots of times they're blind spots. people think they know everything because they're excellent at, coding or, do the designing, distributed ledger, but they may know nothing about policy.

[00:09:41] Sean: So that these blind spots. The next one is, reporting and, measurement and reporting. Lots of people don't know how to actually. rigorously report the impact that the investment is doing. They, treat it as an afterthought. That's a red flag. The next one is policy alignment. are they addressing the relevant policies and regulations that could stumble them?

[00:10:00] Sean: This might seem intuitive to people, but we've seen companies end up in a position where what they're proposing to do in a, particular initiative is deemed illegal. They haven't done their homework, they've got no mitigation on whatever. And then the biggest one, the seventh element, is the element of what we call, payers.

[00:10:17] Sean: And this is one we see over and over, and that is people. Spend a lot of time figuring out what they're gonna build, figuring out how they're gonna bring it to market, figuring out the regulation, figuring out all the other six elements. But they have failed to determine whether there are willing and able payers, but the thing that they're gonna build.

[00:10:38] Sean: And so whenever people come to us and they say. We're developing this incredible satellite technology that we're gonna deploy and it's gonna do amazing granularity. And we, the first question we ask 'em is, forget everything. Forget the six. Just tell us how you've determined that you've got willing enabled payers.

[00:10:55] Sean: Show us traction. Have you got Lois MOUs, offtake agreements, investment commitments, purchase orders, whatever it is, just tell us what it is. And I would say. 60, 70% of people that come to us who are very committed and passionate about the solution they're developing haven't figured out the payer section.

[00:11:11] Sean: So that's a long answer to your question again. But there are seven elements consistently show up. Doesn't matter whether it's a project, doesn't matter whether it's a company, it doesn't matter whether it's an initiative or an NGO. These seven are really proving to me quite reliable in determining which way the outcome's gonna go.

[00:11:29] Hector: You mentioned that the seventh ones seem to be of the most priority. Do you sort of take a diagnostic approach where you look at, at a business or a project and, see which of them need the most attention? Or is there sort of a order up operations to the seven or a, priority order for them?

[00:11:47] Sean: Yeah, good question. so very briefly in the seven, what we call, the problem and the payer. have the heaviest weight at 15 points. the maximum they can get is 15 points. And then the partners, which is at the, top of the we, we've arranged these seven and an archway.

[00:12:02] Sean: So at the top of the arch, you've got a keystone that's made up of your team. That's 10 points. And then the other elements are five points. So there's a priority waiting. What happens is that people go through our, online predictive analytics platform, tarro. which is Latin for to filter.

[00:12:19] Sean: And, they provide their narrative response to these questions. And then our predictive analytics framework basically scores, ranks and provides the narrative back to them and say, good job here. This is a room for improvement. What that allows us to do is that we can take, an investment opportunity in Seychelles, a wind project in India, a peatland project in Northern Ireland, and we can compare them.

[00:12:43] Sean: Like we can compare. It doesn't matter what the sector, it doesn't matter what the geography is. It doesn't matter how long they've been in business. Nothing. Because the, predictive analytical framework that we develop reliably, allows comparability, side by side comparison and also because of the scoring pinpoints where they're the most weeks.

[00:13:02] Sean: So you'll find one, for example, scores two out of 10 on the team, on the keystone element, the top element in the art. We say to the investors, here's the problem, like if you want to insert Surgically investment to fix this problem, then the project's great or you need to spend some time on product market fit validation.

[00:13:21] Sean: The payers piece, they've got no idea whether they're gonna sell anything. So it's a very surgical tool. if you've read, Malcolm Gladwell's book, blink, you'll recognize what I'm describing. He calls it thin slicing. That's exactly what, it's the 20% of the metrics that are gonna dictate 80% of the outcome.

[00:13:37] Sean: that's what Tarro is. It's a thin slicing, frame.

[00:13:40] Hector: This has been a, great conversation when we get back from break. I'm curious, you've talked a lot about what I call, you know, general strategies and, and I think semantically, someone could pick another word, but they're sort of timeless.

[00:13:51] Hector: They're things that have, that you could, drop you into any, any century and that these will work, for enterprise. and then also the other sort of challenge that businesses are dealing with, sort of the tactics. Specifics of how do we, modify it for today's marketplace or today's technology.

[00:14:06] Hector: And so, I'd love to get your feedback and we're gonna get into that, right after this quick break. Hey y'all. Today's episode is brought to you by Amplify Media, and we are a podcast and content production company.

[00:14:14] Hector: Well, we like to think of ourselves as like the fractional media part of your company. Chances are, if you're listening to this, you probably have a product, a passion, a mission, a message, something you're trying to get out to the world. You might not have the time the team or the tech skills be able to do it.

[00:14:27] Hector: If that's the case, we can help Go to Amplify Mediacom. That's a ml af y Mediacom. Show notes for the link. And with that, let's get back to Sean. So Sean, we've spent the first part of the conversation really diving into some timeless strategies and I, I mentioned that someone could listen to this episode, in 2025.

[00:14:47] Hector: I'm curious though about how you guys are adjusting to the, whatever adjustments you're being forced to make, whether that's market conditions, whether that's, you know, tariff and policy conditions, you know, technologies moving at such a, a big rate. What are the things that you are sort of being forced to adjust to and, and what sort of adjustments are you finding yourself?

[00:15:05] Sean: Yeah, I think the, biggest adjustment as we're all dealing with it is the integration, and harnessing of ai, not only in our own business, but also as it relates to our clients that we work with. So we work with clients in, in, obviously in the US and Europe, Africa, south America, Oceana, and,

[00:15:26] Sean: It's kind of an interesting thing. so just a bit of context. Whenever we finish a client engagement on the climate finance consultancy side, we always send a, closeout survey that's, you know, asks them, how do we do, what did you like, what didn't you like, so on. So, and we've been doing this for several years now and what started happening,

[00:15:46] Sean: We started picking out a particular thread in the testimonials, which succinctly boiled down to one word, which is trust. Our clients really trust us. we straight up we're transparent, we ethical, we own our mistakes. And you know, we go beyond why is this, It is feasible to think that clients who ask us a question, I was just on a telephone call for about an hour.

[00:16:12] Sean: I was in a Uber in Paris. someone needed to talk to us, spent an hour talking to these people, answering questions around the carbon market, the carbon climate policy, the movement around the Paris Agreement, what happened at the conference of the party in, in Be, and Brazil and so on.

[00:16:29] Sean: And my wife was in the car, we, for a weekend there. I hung up and she said, I don't, I don't get it. Like, why they asking you these questions? Because she could hear my responses. And she's like, why don't they just like, and this is an interesting thing, is that. even though we have this wealth of information literally on the other end of an app, people They don't know what they can believe. I think that's where we all are with ai. It's kind of convenient, but we are always told to check the references and, when people engage us, they're essentially saying, we understand that we have all these resources. We need to be able to trust you.

[00:17:06] Sean: we do trust you. And so we're coming back to you just for context. 80% of our client book is our repeat clients. Repeat clients. 80% means they keep coming back over and over. But, you know, that said, a adjusting to AI in all its forms it is a challenge, especially in the way that, you know, we have.

[00:17:23] Sean: We create content, as you know, we have our, weekly and monthly newsletters. We do our own podcast, untangling climate finance, and, you know, AI helps with speed. but I think for me, as the principle of the, company, I want to make sure that that trust is never compromised. That the integrity is not compromised.

[00:17:41] Sean: And so we use it we use it judiciously. I would say that, I think the challenge is that when you've got somebody who's looking at potentially working with you and they're on the other end of the zoom call and everything you're saying, they're basically corroborating with chatt BT it can become challenging, you know, because you're not actually having a dialogue.

[00:18:01] Sean: You are responding to his latest chatt BT prompt. Like ask him this double check that that doesn't sound right. And I find that, you know, it's challenging, right? It's, definitely a new, paradigm.

[00:18:12] Hector: Well, yeah, I think there was such a, a large, volume of data that the information was trained on to get us up to this point.

[00:18:20] Hector: And now the amount of new information is, Is obviously much more scarce. And so I think that if there is an opportunity for business leaders, especially those that are willing to create content media to sort of be on the cutting edge, I think it does create an opportunity for them to establish that trust, as opposed to, you know, just, just parroting whatever they get outta their, you know?

[00:18:41] Hector: Right.

[00:18:42] Sean: Yeah. The other thing that's moving. That influences what we do specifically, on the climate finance business, of course, is, you know, the world of, climate is becoming polarized. The current administration, it's definitely not helping. And so we've definitely had to adjust to.

[00:19:00] Sean: Really focusing on growing, client relationships outside of the us So in Europe and Africa and South America. it's kind of odd, we sort of live in this surreal world where we've got, obviously our colleagues in the US who are in this space are still dialed in, but many people are reacting negatively to the sort.

[00:19:19] Sean: Pressure to take their foot off the climate gas pedal, climate mitigation pedal, and that's problematic. and then you have a conversation with somebody in, in Europe or even in Northern Africa, and it's, pedal to the metal for them, you know? And so I find that quite interesting.

[00:19:34] Sean: this dichotomy that's happening before our.

[00:19:37] Hector: Yeah, it seems like the shift and I've only been, in business for I guess now, almost two decades, which, you know, I was fortunate enough to get into, you know, start my first business right outta high school. And so you sort of go through these cycles.

[00:19:51] Hector: And it just, it seems like the cyclical nature of things is accelerating so much to where, you know, businesses, they had a little bit of a, a runway before things really changed a lot. And I just don't think that, businesses have that luxury as much anymore with the, the rate of change.

[00:20:08] Sean: Yeah. Well, what it's doing, I think my impression of that is it's forcing us if you're read Good to Great, which I'm sure you have,

[00:20:15] Sean: I think it's, putting even more acute relevance and attention on a business's hedgehog. Focusing on the one thing that you can truly be the best at in the world or with what the world will miss if you didn't exist. Right? because in days of your, where opportunity was rife and you know, competition wasn't as stiff and the world wasn't moving as fast, one could entertain a number of different plates in the air.

[00:20:39] Sean: But that's becoming, Unwise. and so even in the climate finance, business that I've got, we've gone from nine service offerings to three core ones. Those three core ones are. Client comes in on number one, we escalate them to new two, three classical thing. But it's very focused, it's very contained, it's very structured.

[00:20:59] Sean: and it allows us to say we, we're the best at the, in the world at this particular thing. And I think a lot of organizations, need to do that in the climate. Tech space, the climate development space, carbon space, whatever you want to call it. unfortunately there are a lot of, great organizations that have stumbled on not having a hedgehog.

[00:21:17] Sean: So they've tried, tried different business models. Nobody actually knew what their business model was as a result. Nobody knew when to call them. No one knew when to pick up the phone. I think that is a timeless, piece of attention that's needed no matter what business you start. I mean, in our, in our functional beverage.

[00:21:32] Sean: our proposition is very clear. we only do functional, we only do clean. That's all we do. Nothing else. When people come and tell us, can you do this for, you know, 200,000 units, but we want you to add sucrose and all sorts of, we're just gonna, that's not what we want to be known for. And I think it takes a lot of, as you know, you've been around, takes a bit of discipline,

[00:21:52] Hector: turn that down.

[00:21:54] Hector: For sure I've chased my shiny objects. and also I think that, I see the conversation happening with a lot of young people in the sense of, you know, what, sort of advice do you give a young person when they're trying to choose their career or they're getting into the workforce, you know, with AI and the way that it's happening.

[00:22:08] Hector: I see the same sort of conversation happening for businesses in the sense of how do they sort of position or reposition or niche down into a space that, is gonna be viable in, you know, not even five years, but in 18 months from now. I think it's a, it's a very important conversation that businesses need to have.

[00:22:26] Sean: Yeah, I do. Just on that point for young, people trying to figure out what to do, I, I have, mean, you know, like everybody, we all drank the Kool-Aid, which is fine, you know. Find your purpose, find your passion, follow it, and do that as long as you can be in service to the world. And I'm not negating that, but I'll, I'll tell you the advice I gave to my two.

[00:22:43] Sean: I have four children. I gave to my two older kids who are thankfully doing, following it. And, and this is how I think, I wish my dad had told me this, but when you envisage your lifestyle. Whatever lifestyle it is. You want to be a nomad, you want to live in a city, whatever it is, think of your ideal lifestyle, then figure out what it is that you can do to support that lifestyle where you have a purpose.

[00:23:09] Sean: All right? So it's a little bit reoriented. and interestingly, I'll use my son as an example. He didn't want a nine to five job. He didn't wanna be in the rat race. He, he knew everything he didn't wanna do. He wasn't exactly clear what he. Wanted to, but he also knew he's a surfer. he does yoga. He's a very spiritual guy and he wants to see the world.

[00:23:27] Sean: Anyway, long story short, he went to Nepal, did his 700 hour yoga instructor training is now, teaching at, yoga resorts around the world. Beautiful locations. He's basically a, a nomad. Doesn't work behind a desk, gets paid well, has a great reputation. People loves it. I think. I think that's. I would say in my work, when I founded Gordian Art Strategies, one of the best things that happened despite it being horrible was COVID, because we shut down the office and suddenly I was free.

[00:23:54] Sean: And, we sold everything, bought a boat, and I ran the two businesses for three years from the boat. My family, my two younger kids, and my wife and I were sailing, running the boat from the helm of the, at that time I remember I was on a Zoom call with a client. I was like. I am living a lifestyle where my job can support this type of lifestyle.

[00:24:11] Sean: It was like the most fantastic, three years ever. so anyway, that's my, that's my advice too.

[00:24:16] Hector: Well, I think that's a great note to, to leave it on. I have two more questions though. the first is if people want to find out more about you, about Gordian, not, where's the best place for people to go?

[00:24:25] Sean: Yeah. go knot strategies.com or on LinkedIn, under my name Sean Penrith. yeah, accessible, easy to reach out.

[00:24:33] Hector: And we'll link those up in the show notes for the listeners as always. And my last question, which I give to all the guests, Sean, is in, in your opinion, what is the secret to scaling a business?

[00:24:41] Sean: Yeah, that is a good one. I'm gonna share my result, my opinion on this, but it's, it's an opinion not of my own creation, but of my own learning, I suppose, because 10 years ago, if you'd asked me. I would've said something, I'm sure you've heard many times, which is just, you know, stay consistent, be diligent.

[00:25:02] Sean: Just, just keep pushing. Like, just don't give up. Right? and I've done that all my life. And if I had to summarize my modus operandi, it would be I grind. I'm a grinder. Like I, I grind hard, you know? and. In the last four or five years, I've, pondered whether that's the best method. and I've come to the conclusion that to successfully build and scale a business has to start at a much more fundamental level than I'm just gonna be disciplined.

[00:25:33] Sean: I'm gonna outwork everyone. I'm gonna get up at three o'clock in the morning, not four o'clock, and all that stuff. And I think it has to do with mindset. And I, I think, My background is I had to overcome a lot of limiting beliefs from my childhood, which I didn't even recognize. It took me a long time to figure all that out.

[00:25:48] Sean: But when you start unpacking your limiting beliefs and transforming them into empowering beliefs, it is very, very powerful at moving you a lot faster to where you want to go. I'm not talking about law of attraction stuff and all that. I'm, I'm talking about pure energy alignment between what you feel and project and, how you.

[00:26:08] Sean: Comport yourself in the world, I suppose. and the, the ability to do things essentially, that we're scared of. One guy I, who I listened to, he said it great. Fear is false evidence appearing real? And it's, that's the mindset I'm talking about. It, it holds all of us back from the greatness that's within us.

[00:26:26] Sean: I mean, it did me for many years when I was a lot younger. and so to answer your question, it's mindset really understanding limiting beliefs, transforming them into powerful beliefs, and then acting on those powerful beliefs.