How Jason Tiger Scaled Bubble Universe by Disrupting the Traditional Bubble Industry with Safe, Edible Bubbles for Kids and an Omni-Channel Approach

[00:00:00] Ralph: Hello and welcome to the Perpetual Traffic Podcast. This is your host, Ralph Burns, and this is a show where we share cutting edge strategies on acquiring leads and sales for your business through all things traffic, but also conversion. I think I changed that intro every single time because we're just, we're just moving with the environment here.

[00:00:20] Ralph: whatever's hot, whatever's good, whatever will bring in traffic and help people grow. That's what we're talking about and our guest here today is gonna be talking some pretty cool stuff as well. How you doing pal Powell?

[00:00:31] Kasim: Yeah, we will not be contained is what I hear you saying, Ralph.

[00:00:34] Ralph: do not put us in a box. there will be no traffic box that Ralph and Kasum will live in. so you know this guy pretty well, who's our, guest here today. You're spending an awful lot of time with him. and he's known for this one thing, but talk about being put in a box.

[00:00:52] Ralph: I don't wanna put Jason Flatland in a box. Of just the webinar guy, but we gotta talk about webinars here today. So I know you know 'em from the, Driven Mastermind Kasa. Maybe do a little intro and intro our guest here with a little nugget to start things off.

[00:01:10] Kasim: I'm gonna do the worst thing you can do to a podcast guest, and I'm just gonna set the expectations as high as they can get. we do a call every Wednesday with some of the smartest people I've ever known in my entire life, and every Wednesday, Jason blows everybody's mind. all that happens is I get off these calls, they're Zoom calls, and then I just get texts from people oh dude, that guy's so smart.

[00:01:29] Kasim: I can't believe what he just said, you know, do you have the recording, et cetera. And I text Jason once and said, dude, going into a mastermind with you is my partner. And he's going into a fight in elementary school when I know my big brother's gonna be. I've just gotten to a point where I don't even need to worry.

[00:01:48] Kasim: I'm just like, Jason's gonna go, he is gonna drop bombs, he's gonna wow people and I can just phone the rest of my life in, which is a pretty cool place to be. So with that, horrible expectation set. Jason Flatland, thanks for being on Perpetual Traffic.

[00:02:02] Jason: Callum, Ralph, my pleasure to be here.

[00:02:05] Kasim: Yeah, but dude, no bullshit. You're like one of the smartest guys I've ever been connected with in person. it's fun to just let you riff and I think that's what I wanna do in this show is just wind you up and let you go. to start out with, we always to drop a nugget right out of the gate.

[00:02:18] Kasim: Something that's gonna provide epic value to our listeners and can be simple cuz value doesn't always have to come from complexity. So, just outta curiosity, is there something that you've got that you think people would take a lot away?

[00:02:29] Jason: I've always thought this was unremarkable, but then I kind of taught it accidentally here and there, and people get really good results with it. one of the webinars we do is just, should you buy this thing or not webinar? And it's framed as, there's not gonna be any content here. We're not gonna teach you a damn thing.

[00:02:45] Jason: You will walk away knowing nothing. Extra than you knew before you showed up. We're just gonna determine if you should buy this product or not. You want to come and take a look and that can sell incredibly well cuz people do wanna buy things. Everybody wants to buy something where they get more out of it than they put into it.

[00:03:05] Jason: And I think sometimes as marketers we make it more sophisticated than it has to be. So anybody listening, add that to your sales. Literally put a space in there that says, should you buy this or not? Let's have a call and let's figure it out. And instead of doing it one to one in a sale situation, most people do, one to many is much more efficient.

[00:03:23] Jason: So bring 'em all on and just bring up every objection, every challenge, every issue. And don't be surprised how much more sales that could unlock for you, where you're literally just saying, should you spend money with me or not? Let's figure.

[00:03:36] Kasim: The thing I know about you, dude, is when you say bring up every objection, every challenge, every issue, you don't sock puppet, any of that. you steelman the alternative argument. Often and you actually repel the wrong buyers. And I've seen you do it personally. I've seen you advise other people to do it and I think there's a lot of wisdom there cuz in so many instances there are people whose money you actually don't want.

[00:03:59] Kasim: I don't want the customer service call here, I don't want you in my funnel long term. And so some of this I think is marketers needing to,

[00:04:05] Kasim: accept the fact that some of the people in your funnel shouldn't be in your funnel. And this is one of the ways to get them out of,there so you can focus.

[00:04:12] Jason: I think more important than that too is when somebody has an objection, which is the only reason somebody doesn't buy your product, is because of some excuse that they have. and usually they believe your product. They believe in you. They believe in the quality of what you offer. They think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but they think they.

[00:04:29] Jason: So it doesn't matter how good you are or your product is, so their excuse will limit their ability to pay you money. And so I like to lean into those excuses and take 'em to their extreme. So instead of trying to minimize them or pretend they don't exist, we go the other way with it. We're like,

[00:04:48] Jason: You're probably thinking, wow, what happens if I buy this course? I lose all my money. My wife leaves me. My friends no longer hang out with me, and I look like the biggest loser in the world. that might be on your mind right now. Let's talk about it. It's better to say it that way than to say you probably have some doubts and some concerns right now.

[00:05:05] Jason: So we lean into the fear. We lean into the excuse we exaggerate it almost to an extreme, and then people realize, oh, I should just look at this thing, cuz what happens is people get scared and then they shut down. They say, oh my God, I feel afraid I gotta do anything I can to stop feeling that.

[00:05:23] Jason: And then they no longer think it through. And that's a problem because people get stuck in this maybe holding pattern, and that's not good for them. It's not good for you. So our goal is to get them either into a no or into a yes. And it's very confrontational. Now you can do it with empathy, you can do it with love, and you can do it with care, which I suggest and I recommend.

[00:05:41] Jason: But if you got the most expensive damn thing on in your. You should tell them that. You should say, yes, this is extremely expensive, but the alternative's even more expensive. They're like, what do you mean? Well, yeah, doing nothing and sliding slowly into a death. That's gonna be more costly than even if it's worth doing, it's worth doing, whether it's hard or it's not.

[00:06:01] Jason: So these are all conversations we have, right? So I think the most important thing anybody can do that that is listening right now, is to not run away from the fears, the objections, the limitations, the excuses that your audience has, but actually lean into them. And then allow them the space to be able to look at them without being consumed by them and help them make the decision that's right for them, which is not necessarily a yes decision.

[00:06:27] Jason: I have this 10, 80, 10 theory, right? 10% of the audience, if you could reach them, they would say yes with minimum hassle. They woke up that morning saying, I need X in my life, and then you show up with x. And they're like, where have you been all my life?

[00:06:39] Jason: Here's my money. It must be a sign from God. 10% of your audience will never buy from you. You could be selling $10 bills for a dollar. They just won't buy, and there's nothing you can do to change that. 80% of your audience can swing either way. This is why we've broken the biggest affiliate, contest of all time and been the biggest affiliates in some of the biggest launches that the internet has ever seen.

[00:07:00] Jason: Cuz we say, look at all these 80% of people. They're watching everybody's video, they're reading everybody's emails, they're following everybody's content. So they're interested in their engaged, but they're not buying. What aren't they hearing that they need to hear in order to make a. And that's what I obsess over.

[00:07:16] Jason: And this is where we can move markets, we can get the people that can go either way. But right now most of your audience is stuck in maybe, and they're not making a decision, and that's not good for them. It wastes their energy, it creates anxiety. it makes them stuck. the, it actually creates more fear than confronting the issue.

[00:07:35] Jason: I'd rather somebody say no and move on with their life than to say maybe and keep kind of. Treating it like a hobby. Now, most people that are hanging in there and listening and following, they want to say yes, and they're looking for a reason to say yes, and we're not doing them any favors by delaying the decision for them to say yes.

[00:07:55] Jason: And so that's kind of the root of everything that, that I try to do is help people make the right decision.

[00:07:59] Ralph: So let me lean into that, first nugget, of. Going right after the market and saying, should you buy this thing or not? is there any discerning between cold traffic, warm traffic, list traffic? how do you start that? Because it's a brilliant thing. I love the counterintuitive selling methodologies, which you're really known for.

[00:08:19] Ralph: obviously, and obviously the, the background in, psychiatry and understanding sort of the deep human emotions and how people buy is just always something that's fascinating, I think, to any advertiser or marketing person. But how do you do that? it's so blatant.

[00:08:35] Ralph: Is it cold traffic? you obviously need a, a level of awareness, obviously to a, to a list, to page views, that kind of thing.

[00:08:44] Jason: Generally it's not cold traffic, although not always, but the way I always recommend to clients is it's a hail Mary. What do you got to lose? So do everything all the gurus teach you to do. follow and model them, hack their funnels, blah, blah, blah, right? And then just tack this onto the end of it as a hail Mary.

[00:09:01] Jason: Start there. And then if you discover that, that works really good, move it up earlier in the conversation. The first webinar I ever did in 2008, so Grandpa Flatland here. Story time, right? First webinar I did in 2008. I was uncomfortable with the idea that I felt webinars were kind of bait and switchy.

[00:09:20] Jason: Come on, I'm just gonna teach you something for free out of the goodness of my heart. And then 45, 60 minutes in psych, give me your wallet. I want your credit card. I always felt at the time that it was, a trick. And I, I didn't feel very easy about that. So I said, how do I rectify this? So I, my webinar started with, I said, I, I have two agendas here today.

[00:09:39] Jason: one agenda is to teach you how to do X, Y, and Z. And my other agenda is to sell you. So, I said, however, here's the deal. If I can't pull off this nearly impossible claim that I'm making that for free in 60 minutes, I'm gonna teach you X, Y, and Z. Then I insist under no circumstance that you should ever buy the offer I'm gonna make at the end of this webinar.

[00:10:03] Kasim: Hm.

[00:10:04] Jason: if by some small miracle I'm able to pull off X, Y, and Z and show that to you, and you believe you can do it, then you should feel. To invest in what I'm offering at the end of this webinar. Do we have a deal? And we'd get a 99.9% compliance on that. So even the first time that we got people into a webinar, my first webinars were straight up.

[00:10:28] Jason: Just telling them, I want to sell you this thing. Here's the circumstances in which you should consider buying it or not. Setting a frame. I didn't know what was called a frame back then. man, we could explore the world of frames. Very fascinating stuff. but setting that frame that I do want to sell you something, but let's put it in a perspective of why that's a good thing for you.

[00:10:46] Jason: And so I think people are far too timid. They push far too in the horizon of the future when they a ask for the offer. And almost always, if we can bring it up closer now, too much too soon is a very real thing. if you see a hot woman across the bar and you walk up to her and say, marry me, probably ain't gonna work.

[00:11:04] Jason: Right? sometimes that there's dating involved and there's courtship involved, but I, I am shocked at how quickly we can move from rapport into. I've seen it happen so fast that I wonder sometimes if we don't create all this marketing just as merely mental masturbation just to, for our own benefits, more so than the customer's benefit.

[00:11:28] Ralph: Yeah, I love the 10 80 10 breakdown and the 80%. the, should you buy this thing or not webinar, probably that 10% that's gonna buy is maybe a little bit larger, but, What, what about that middle 80%? What have you found for years and years of doing this?

[00:11:47] Ralph: what are the persuasive techniques? Is it what you're describing? I remember my first sales job in pharmaceuticals, they were, well, no doctor's ever really gonna buy from you unless you give them a fair balance. no pharmaceutical is perfect. There's always gonna be side effects.

[00:12:03] Ralph: So tell them that up. And it was a very effective selling technique, which I think you're sort of tapping into here. So it's universal. It's whether it's, selling on webinars or selling in real personal, real life, doesn't matter what it is. So that 80% middle, where, what are the levers that you've really found help persuade the most?

[00:12:25] Jason: Yeah, and this is why I like webinars so much, cuz. On one hand, I know general universal decision making patterns. So I know generally markets operate these ways, and by the way, it's true whether you're a surgeon, brain surgeon, or you're a custodian, right? it doesn't seem to matter. background education, marital status, socioeconomic condition.

[00:12:48] Jason: Generally, human beings make decisions in predictable ways, so knowing those patterns is very helpful and every marketer should know that. I wouldn't call myself a marketer if I didn't know the basic psychological principles, if I didn't know child dini's. six weapons of influence, if you will, right?

[00:13:04] Jason: that's for starters. But the finer points are what make the records and have you become famous in your market and take over the market. And I never know what those are until I interact with the audience enough. And the webinar is one of the most efficient ways that I've discovered in order to do that is if I sit on a webinar and my why webinars go long.

[00:13:26] Jason: They typically are four, four and a half hours long, the first hour and a half. We're setting the stage, we're helping people understand it high level, but then the next three hours we're interacting with the audience. And that's great cuz if I can answer your question directly, that might help you. But also if you can hear me answer somebody else's question, that's like your question. That indirect suggestion is usually more influential than if I'm talking to you directly. it feels safer and you're listening more objectively that way, so you make better decisions. But here's what we've discovered is most of the audience is. They're not going to open up and be vulnerable with you because they've been vulnerable with other people in the past in the market and they've been exploited and taken advantage of.

[00:14:09] Jason: So you have to earn the right to truly know the deeper part of what that person fears in what they're interested in. beyond the obvious, if, if the obvious was enough, they would've already bought. So what are the little shades of gray in between black and light that need to be addressed? And we find out that we are always surprised that what really makes the decision when we roll out a campaign and it just opens the floodgates where we just nail it and we take a lot of that 80% we otherwise wouldn't get.

[00:14:41] Jason: And so I'm just open to having discussions to figure. In not being judgmental about it. what are the limitations involved? so I'll give you one in the, in the money-making niche that a lot of people aren't aware of. so digital marketing, how to build a digital business, internet marketing, whatever the hell you wanna call it, right?

[00:14:57] Jason: A majority of that market would rather make 2000 to $3,000 a month almost completely risk free with just a few hours of work per week. They would rather have, Than a one in 100 shot of being a millionaire. They would rather remove the risk almost completely and and highly limit the upside. So they would rather remove 99% of the risk and remove 85% of the upside. And have that predictable, have that risk free, almost have that consistency and have the ability to test it out and dip the toe in the water instead of diving in head first. They want reliability. They want an an annuity more than anything. They want a platform that they can build upon. Now you look at the offers that are run in that, that industry.

[00:15:45] Jason: Way off the mark, right? It's all million dollars. Million dollars, million dollars. Make all this money, make all this money, drive all these fancy cars, buy all these big houses, right? That's too scary for them. In fact, they are afraid of losing money doing those offers, cuz that's generally been the pattern than they are of, of making money.

[00:16:05] Jason: So those offers, They will buy them reluctantly so that you can see them be successful, right? But they're completely out of tune, out of frequency, outta sync with what that market truly wants. And so we've been able to, to do it in a way where people, we, we actually now, so forget webinars for a second.

[00:16:24] Jason: Right? before you cook, get the best ingredients. we look for offers that have, that they have the ability that maybe they break through, maybe they can make millions of dollars. There's a path there and we can demonstrate that. But even if everything goes wrong, here's how you can still be a little bit better off than you are now.

[00:16:43] Jason: And not feel you're taking a huge amount of risk. And I've learned generally to gravitate towards those types of offers in set communication frames along those lines. And people are way more receptive to that. And it's, it's more logical, isn't it? Most people don't need to be millionaires in order to fill right in life.

[00:17:03] Jason: It's only us completely messed up entrepreneurs who somehow feel we gotta build an empire to be happy, right? Most people, they just need an extra couple thousand dollars a month to have the breathing room, so that way they're not worried if the bills come up unexpectedly that they can still pay them.

[00:17:17] Jason: that's what most people actually want. But entrepreneurs who lead the way don't live the lifestyle or, or the mentality that their audience does. So they're experts and they can provide for them insights, but they have a different set of values. And so you have to see this mismatching values and that's why a lot of people struggle to, to hit that next level in their marketing cuz they're just outta sync with their market.

[00:17:42] Ralph: Seems the market has, I wouldn't say matured. I don't know if that's the right thing to say because, 10, 10, 12, 15 years ago when we were probably all first starting, it was being, bringing in the millions of the hundreds of thousands. I, I see so much more now with the side hustle. a side hustle is a big thing. we have a couple of customers. It's all about Hey, just make a little money on the side and it's so much. Convertible, from a conversion standpoint, but it seems that is a trend just, just in general. or am I just mistaken? Just because I'm sort of, my worldview is somewhat askew, but I mean it, there certainly seems that's it and it's that's so much more attainable for the average human being is oh, I can see myself making maybe a couple thousand dollars extra a month, but maybe not tens of thousands.

[00:18:34] Ralph: I can't really see that.

[00:18:37] Jason: there's a lot of nuance to this, right? it's the ideal position is I can buy a lottery ticket and maybe I can get rich doing that, but at the same time, if I don't win the lottery, Here's where I can land on this safety cloud, and if I miss this cloud when I'm shooting for the stars, I can land on the cloud below it, the cloud below it, the cloud below it.

[00:18:59] Jason: And so they, the audience is, they think they need a million dollars up front. So you kind of almost gotta talk to that. And then as they get into it, they start to say to themselves more reasonably, everybody that starts lifting weights, I gotta have a six pack and I gotta look this way and that way and everything.

[00:19:16] Jason: Right. And then when they find out the cost involved in order to acquire that, they're yeah, being healthy is probably better.

[00:19:22] Ralph: I'll take that.

[00:19:23] Jason: I get it now. It's probably hel it's better to be healthier than it is to stride. That's another form of, of Unhealthiness is being obsessive and doing things you normally wouldn't do for vanity's sake.

[00:19:34] Jason: So everybody starts off kind of on the same page. I'm gonna teach you how to be a millionaire and you want to be a million. But then as they unwrap it and they start to go through the process, they understand that, well, maybe that doesn't make the most sense. So the people that are are pitching side hustles, they're probably more to succeed because they hit it on the nose.

[00:19:54] Jason: the ultimate position though is show them that you have the possibilities and that some people can get there. And it's certainly. You, there are ways you could make it, but not at the expense of your, of your livelihood, not at the expense of your family, not at the expense of your sanity. it's romancing the stone.

[00:20:15] Jason: That's where we start these subtle forms of communication, that help them understand that if you try this out, you won't get worse. I don't know how much better you will get. But you won't get worse. And if you can totally communicate that to your audience, you will sell more than any other method that I know of because you've essentially made it risk free.

[00:20:37] Jason: You've therefore made it more expensive not to buy than it is to buy. But see, everybody, Ralph is looking at it the other way. they're always looking at it from the positive. making it cheaper to buy or, or they don't say less expensive. They say a better deal. they say make money.

[00:20:53] Jason: I'm saying don't lose money. they're saying last longer. I'm saying quit last. and there's, so some of that is just simply because if you say the same thing everybody else says, You don't have an advantage if you Xerox the Mona Lisa. It's not worth more, it's worth less. So some of that is important to be unique in your communication.

[00:21:10] Jason: But the other part of it is, is that's how your audience looks at things. They don't look through it through a lens of of gain and pleasure. They look through it through a lens of pain and loss. Their life sucks. Most people that are seeking out solutions in that way, at least their life is very, insufficient. And so they're not coming in with a lot of optimism. They might pretend they are, but in the sobering, dark reality of night, they're anxious and they're depressed, and they're scared. And they're afraid, and they don't know how they're gonna go on. You gotta meet them there and some way. Some way. You gotta meet them there, and then you gotta take 'em to where you want to go.

[00:21:52] Jason: But everybody else who's already solved the problem, and that's what makes them experts. They don't have anxiety around it anymore. They've figured it out. I don't worry about being able to speak in front of an audience anymore. I haven't had that fear in 15 years. Right. But if I'm teaching speakers how to speak in front of audiences, that might be their number one thing.

[00:22:11] Jason: So the thing that I waste zero seconds of time, effort, and energy on is something that's consuming their life. I, I, I haven't had a fear of paying a. I don't know when. Over a decade, right? I've had a, a real money worry in over a decade, and I'm addressing an audience whose primary worries are over money.

[00:22:32] Jason: So I gotta be in their frequency and understand how they think and communicate and talk. And it's not rainbows and sunshine, it's not positivity, it's not excitement, it's fear. And I have to address that in some way, shape, and and form at some level. And that's where I go to. And you get more rapport there very quickly.

[00:22:52] Jason: And so their fear of losing. Is dominating their, their communication. So I'll give you a great example. We're selling, and I'll tell people straight up, when I'm selling something or teaching something even it doesn't matter, I'll say the number one thing that I see people struggle with in business is driving traffic.

[00:23:07] Jason: I said, point blank, most of you suck at traffic. You can't drive it, you can't walk it. You might get caught in traffic. That's about your only. Experience of success and traffic is getting stuck in a traffic jam, right? So you need a system where either the traffic is done for you or given to you, or you can do a lot with a little traffic.

[00:23:26] Jason: Well, let's take a look at what that looks like, right? So I'm not pretending they're good at traffic. I'm flat out telling them, you probably suck at traffic, right? One of my best webinars are like, you suck at conversion. You've never had a stranger pay you anything in your life. You suck at traffic. You don't have a product.

[00:23:43] Jason: And you need probably multiple products to be successful in this business and they should be high quality products and they should have high profit margins. and you don't have any money. So how are you gonna compete with people that can outspend you and outsmart you? I start there and then I show them how in spite of all those overwhelming odds, there are models out there.

[00:24:02] Jason: There's a specific model, for example, on the webinar that I teach that negates all of those limitations. But I don't pretend that they don't have those, which is what almost everybody else does. And this doesn't have to be the make money market. This can be any market. Let's acknowledge the reality of the limitation of where they're at.

[00:24:20] Jason: And then let's show them how either in that limitation is a greater seed of strength. Cuz every weakness has strength, every strength has weakness. Or let's show them how, because we're aware of their limitations. We designed a system that gets around those limitations. And then they're where have you been my whole life?

[00:24:40] Ralph: Right. So in that case, if you have sort of those five pain points, even to the individual that's attending, let's say I only have three out of the five, I'm probably still feeling, hey, I'm actually in a pretty good, pretty good spot. I'm ahead of all these other guys. but so it's like sort of that, that psychology there, I mean, I think it's important I think for people to understand that one of the things we talk about all the time on this show, Is this deep diving into your avatar, really understanding what those pain points are.

[00:25:10] Ralph: And, and fear is much greater motivator than, than pleasure. but the point is, is I think a lot of people don't really even get to that point with their products. At least we see that all the time. It's like, my God, you're just putting out images of this thing and don't, aren't saying anything about it and how it benefits people's lives or what problem it solves, or any of that.

[00:25:30] Ralph: It's like, Kind of the basics of advertising and marketing. how do you, when you're working with a, a, with a, with, one of your students or a lot of the consulting that you do, is that one of the big things that you sort of start off with? what are the pains of your market?

[00:25:47] Jason: Oh yeah, 100% right. I have a training that I did. people paid 5,000 to come. It's called Murder the Objection. Sometimes you wanna be subtle at this business and sometimes not so much. And the whole premise that I, I had offered up to them is that just you attack the objection at all angles. All perspectives at all times, and you should be very clear going in what that objection is.

[00:26:14] Jason: And you should consider framing everything, including the name of the product, the look and the field, the communications around that. Now again, this doesn't mean you go out there and say like, you don't call your product. You know, stop being a loser. Right? You don't say that, right? there's these things called schema.

[00:26:33] Jason: So schema are essentially, how people take this very complicated world, which has millions and billions and trillions of inputs coming at you at any given time, and how they parse out 99.9% of that so they can actually survive this insane, chaotic world that's overstimulating, right? The, the trade off with schema is once they create a nice little container, And I say that's the way the world is in this regard.

[00:26:58] Jason: Good luck changing that. that's really hard. And so most people have these impoverished schemas, meaning that they can only see the world one way and that limits them. And also though the schema is they're used to having a webinar look this way, or they're used to having a, an ad campaign function this way.

[00:27:16] Jason: They're used to having things be a certain way. So if you change how that is too much radically, and you don't know how to frame that properly, then they'll, they'll just say, this is not for. And they'll, then they'll eject too soon. So this is why a lot of my marketing will look s similar on the outside looking in as other people do.

[00:27:35] Jason: Because I have to conform to some sort of acceptable standard of this is kind of what a squeeze page looks This is kind of what people are used to having from a communication framework. So we're sprinkling in and we're using a lot of and leading with a lot of the same positive. Here's the benefits, here's the outcomes, here's the things you secretly desire and wish were to come true.

[00:27:54] Jason: We're putting that all in there, which is important. Also holistically, it's not one or the other. We want to bring everything we possibly. To the table, but at the same time I am, the more I study what, what has been successful in our business, the more I'm looking at what really one was focusing on the limitation.

[00:28:14] Jason: So, if we're selling an Amazon thing, Showing them how they can pick winning products and not waste money. Spend three months before they ever get a product live. and then they pick the wrong product, and then they're sitting on $10,000 of inventory, right. I gotta address that. I gotta start there and I gotta find ways to solve that cuz that's their biggest fear.

[00:28:37] Jason: Once upon a time, we sold 17,000 people, a $3,500 product on how to start an Amazon business. This was back in 2015, right? so anybody listening do the mass 17,000 times, 3,500 equals a lot of money with a lot of commas in it.

[00:28:55] Jason: 52% of the people that bought that product. Did not get a product live on Amazon.

[00:29:01] Jason: That's tragic. It's upsetting to me guys because the, the number one way I've grown my brand is make a lot of people a lot of money, and then they talk about me. And they say favorable things to me. So I want my, I desperately need my customers to succeed. I don't wanna work harder, I wanna work less hard every year than the year before.

[00:29:21] Jason: So I want to create more success stories. And so I'm not happy about this. I'm really frustrated and angry about this, so I gotta go through and evaluate what's stopping them. From getting a product live, this is a multi-step process. To be successful selling on Amazon, they can't even do step one.

[00:29:39] Jason: They can't even get the first step out the door, and so I can get mad at them, I can yell at them, I can get angry at them, or I can go to work and say, how do we eliminate? The friction that stops them from getting step one, not finished. How do we go about doing that? And that's where we start to really look at things and frame offers and create communication around how do we limit that.

[00:30:01] Jason: But when I get in front of an audience and I'm selling them, I will flat, I'll tell them, I'll say, so I, you know, in an objection handling phase, I'll say, you're probably concerned right now. What if I buy this product and do nothing with it?

[00:30:14] Jason: and

[00:30:14] Jason: if I had to guess, you've probably done that. You've probably spent several thousand dollars on products that you didn't complete.

[00:30:21] Jason: And some products, if you're really honest with yourself, you didn't even start. Tell me if I'm right or wrong. So I'd say that to the audience. Right? And I'll say, I've seen it firsthand cuz we've had 52% of people who've bought an Amazon course in the past never even get their first product life. Now you would think I'm committing marketing suicide here, right?

[00:30:42] Jason: God forbid we are actually upfront and open and honest with our customers. but what I've discovered is when you lay it out that way, they're okay, if he's got the balls to actually say these things out loud, I'm listening. Why is he saying this? He must have some sort of solution, possibly.

[00:30:58] Jason: What could that look like? And then when I show them, this is why we now do Amazon this way, as opposed to that way, I know you're gonna be afraid to put a product live. I know that this issue's gonna get in your way. Here's how we removed it. And I don't know why people are so, so nervous about minimizing these quote unquote mistakes or these issues they've had in their business.

[00:31:15] Jason: I'll give you a bonus one here. When I'm working with clients, most of them are very uncomfortable. I've found salespeople are, are not very good at teaching and, and teachers are not very good at selling. You're either generally good at one or the other, but rarely both. and so we get these subject matter experts, stone cold, just top of the class world champions at what they do, scared out of their minds to sell.

[00:31:38] Jason: And what I tell them, and the few that actually listen to me, they're amazed at how successful this works. I tell them when it comes time to do the close, I said, do something like this. Go to your audience and say, right now I'm about to make you an offer and I'm scared out of my mind. If you hear my voice crack, if you see my fingers tremble and shake, and if I look like I'm about to pass out, it's because I'm freaked out.

[00:32:02] Jason: Right. Because I'm so nervous to sell and I'm afraid you're gonna reject me, or I'm gonna say something stupid and look really dumb and maybe offend you, and maybe you won't ever come back again. I'm, I'm terrified right now. However, I'm willing to risk my own personal discomfort because what I have to sell you is worth it if you're the right.

[00:32:26] Jason: So forgive me if I screw up, but here's what it's about. And my clients that do that, we're just acknowledging the reality and using that as opposed to pretending we're some sort of expert when we're not pretending we're brave, when we're afraid. Nah, son, let's not do that. Let's just, let's just lean into the fear and use it to our advantage.

[00:32:44] Jason: And I tell my clients, let's say, I wish I could close that. Now that's not true for me. So I can't close

[00:32:48] Jason: like that. Uh, it's a better close.

[00:32:51] Ralph: it's brilliant.

[00:32:53] Jason: Yeah, so I think more of that needs system you acknowledged let's not minimize the, the, the weakness. Let's find where the strength lies in that weakness.

[00:33:02] Jason: Let's not pretend that there isn't an issue. Let's bring the issue out and address it so people can be,proactive towards it. And we just don't see that in marketing for whatever reason. And that's one of the, the biggest superpowers that I've been able to use in my.

[00:33:16] Ralph: Hmm, a hundred percent. I've got a million questions to ask you, but I know our audience is probably gonna ask for sort of the classic Jason Flatland, webinar framework, and maybe we can just sort of go through that. If this is the first time you've ever heard Jason talk, this is an intro to what he.

[00:33:35] Ralph: And obviously some of the nuggets that we've already talked about here are pretty priceless. I love the being upfront and just, it, it's so counterintuitive, everything that you're saying here, but obviously it's, it's human psychology at work. So maybe we can just kind of go back to the basics and just sort of say, all right, this is what I've learned over doing this.

[00:33:53] Ralph: For God knows how many years you've been doing it, 15 years, 10, 15

[00:33:56] Ralph: years, at

[00:33:56] Jason: long.

[00:33:58] Ralph: So let's just sort of take it through that framework and, and what you've maybe improved on or maybe highlighted or improved upon over the course of the last 10 years.

[00:34:09] Jason: Yeah, so offer's way more important than framework. So these days I've done some of my best campaigns. I've didn't even do the webinar. we had the sharpest ax so anybody could swing it and chop down the tree. So offer before anything else, but let's just assume you have a really good offer. Framework for the webinar is I, I argue that the introduction is the most important part of any webinar.

[00:34:31] Jason: Webinar in my mind has four phases, intro, content, transition close, and I think the intro is the most important part of any webinar cuz it sits the stage, it sits the frame. And so what I'm doing on a webinar at the, at the beginning is I'm creating this excitement, but this tension, I got this thing today that is so amazing.

[00:34:51] Jason: You might be able to do it, you might not. And that, that's that's the perfect thing. You pull somebody in and then you kind of push 'em away a little bit and say, I don't know if you're ready for this. So I'm always looking immediately to when I'm setting the stage of I got the greatest thing for, for you.

[00:35:06] Jason: that's since sliced bread if you qualify for it. I'm not sure if you will or not, but if you do, oh my god, this thing is amazing. And now they're like, okay, I'm hooked. Is this for me or not? Can I do this or not? And then after I do that, I'll say, and this will work for you even if. Lame excuse number one, big objection, number two, limiting belief number three, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:35:29] Jason: So I, I immediately bring up the objection in the introduction. I don't answer them or I don't solve them, but I acknowledge that they exist. so I set it there, and then I say, on this webinar, you're gonna discover, and then I bait the hook with curiosity bullet points. this amazing thing that you'll, that here, this amazing thing over there, this thing, this thing, this thing, this thing.

[00:35:46] Jason: This. Right. and then I say, here's why I'm qualified to give you unique insights here that you can't find anywhere else. which I think is a better way of doing it than just saying, here's who I am and here's why you should listen to me. I always felt that was so, it seemed more selfish that way.

[00:36:00] Jason: Mine is framed from their perspective, here's how I've acquired the insights for you. You can't get anywhere else. and then that's when you can credentialize yourself. That's when you can demonstrate who you are, what you've accomplished. Also, this is when you can bring in success stories, and I try to bring in a ton of success stories within the first few minutes.

[00:36:18] Jason: Not long, laborious, boring testimonials, but a three second one here, a five second one there, a two second one there, a four second one there. I wanna have 5, 10, 15, winners just in my introduction alone, and then get. get people a lot of webinars. The biggest weakness in their webinar, not the biggest, but a big weakness, is they have more presentations and less conversations.

[00:36:40] Jason: I want more conversation, less presentation, so I'm always checking in with my audience. I'm always getting some sort of. Response from that audience and getting some sort of commitment. So one of the easiest commitments is, if I give you my level best, a level best here today and show you exactly how to do X, Y, and Z, will you promise me to put it in action first chance you get?

[00:37:01] Jason: And they say yes, cuz now they're gonna consume the rest of the content with more of a mindset of how do I apply this? And that they can see themselves applying it in their mind first. Then they're more likely to buy the offer at the end because they didn't just listen passively, they listened actively.

[00:37:19] Jason: And that's the introduction. very, very. I, I mean, as thin of what I could teach you today, minimally sufficient, is the way that I would frame what I just discussed there. that's the intro. We kind of wanna accomplish those things. The content is, I wanna have a clearly defined outcome that will create a paradigm shift.

[00:37:37] Jason: very specifically, I'm gonna show you how to do something exactly like this, and if you see this in the content section, I want your reaction to be by the time it's. Oh my God, this changes everything. I could never go back to the old way of doing things again. Even if I don't do the, the new way, I could no longer be the same person I was when I entered this webinar.

[00:37:59] Jason: And so usually there's a lot of setup. a lot of people forget that if you really wanna have an impact with some sort of insight, it needs to be the punch. So a punchline is like 2% of the communication. The other 98% is the setup. So anytime I'm dropping some massive insight on a webinar or, or some, some how to, if you will, there's a lot of setup that takes place.

[00:38:24] Jason: First context. Here's why this is important. Here's what's involved, and here's what these things actually are specifically, and here's the challenge with these things normally. So here's how you can use this. And so the insight is, it's not very much, but it's properly set up. So when it's revealed. Boom, it hits you like a ton of bricks.

[00:38:45] Jason: And so I just gotta reveal the minimum number of, of insights needed for them to have that aha moment related to the topic at hand. And then the transition is essentially along the lines of, we got two options. You either take everything I showed you here today and go off on your own. And I hope and pray that you can use it.

[00:39:02] Jason: Maybe you can. And. That would be valid if it was your only option. But there's another option. We can work together. I can give you every resource that I have. I can take an active outcome. In your success. I gotta be a stakeholder and be responsible to help you implement these things. that requires an investment.

[00:39:20] Jason: So here's your choices. You do it alone. And I hope if that's your only thing, that's great. and you can do it on your own, but maybe you want to do it with. And this is what this looks like. And then you sell, you make the offer, right? an offer is cuz we're running outta time here, unfortunately here today.

[00:39:34] Jason: here's a gold nugget for anybody listening out of everything you can do with the offer. The number one mistake I see most people doing on webinars is this. They show you everything they have and then they tell you the price and then they ask for the order. So they end on price.

[00:39:51] Jason: what a catastrophic. To end on price, the way that I sell is I show 'em about 10% of what they get. Then I tell them how much it is and where to go to get it. And then the rest of the time, I'm adding value. Here's a bonus. Here's this bonus, here's this thing, here's that thing. So I end on value and the theory behind that was this.

[00:40:17] Jason: Most people will say no to any offer, whether they want it or not. The first time that they hear it, they just will. 98% of people are gonna say no. The first time they, they see something. Nobody can truly say no until they know how much something costs. You could, everybody wants the Lamborghini until they know how much it costs, right?

[00:40:34] Jason: and nobody knows that this wonderful, beautiful thing, they think it's expensive, and then they find out it's cheap. They, they don't know they want it. Until they know the price, they can't make a real decision. So I'm like, let me help them make a decision up front, knowing it'll probably be a no decision by getting the price there as fast as I possibly.

[00:40:52] Jason: So here's what it is. Here's what it does. Here's how it's delivered. Here's what I should charge for it. Here's what I normally charge for it. Here's a special deal if you act fast enough by going to example.com/go getting started today. And I'm like, as, how quickly can we do that? Can we do that in 2, 3, 4 minutes?

[00:41:07] Jason: so then they can say, no, I, I really want this, but I can't see myself giving you money for it. And then you say, and when you act fast enough, you also get bonus number one. Then you, you also get bonus number two, and then you also get, and then we reverse some risks, like if you do X, Y, and Z and then you don't succeed, not only will we give you your money back, we'll give you more than your money back.

[00:41:28] Jason: Stuff like that, right? And all of a sudden the scale goes from a little value for a lot of price to A lot of value for a tiny fraction of price. And each time they get a D they get a new way to make a decision. I didn't want it, but now you added that. I might want it.

[00:41:44] Jason: Well, now you added that. I really do want, now you added that. I totally want it. So we end on value. So we make the offer as fast as we possibly can. And then we continue to sweeten the offer more and more and more, and then we end on, q and A. more than 50% of my webinars without any actual formal structure of a slide deck, it's, here's a bunch of you.

[00:42:06] Jason: You're still here. I don't know why there's one of me you're asking questions. Let me see if I can be of service. Now that you've seen the whole offer, but we end on value. We don't end on price like everybody else does. And that's it, man. I mean, if anybody wants to know the full ins and outs, of course there's the book on Amazon.

[00:42:24] Jason: It's called One to Many, and I break down the, the exact thing in each of those sections. I what somebody can be doing to sell on webinars.

[00:42:30] Ralph: we need way more than 40 minutes to talk to you.

[00:42:32] Ralph: I think.

[00:42:33] Jason: know, man.

[00:42:34] Ralph: So short, we're gonna have to have you back if this is your first time, hearing Jason, wait, it's not my first time, but if it's your first time, where can people find more? Because I know we've just really just scratched the surface here.

[00:42:48] Jason: Yeah, I mean, the book is the best place, but we're, I'm starting social media, I've sold over a quarter billion dollars and it's amazing. I did almost all of that with zero social media presence. So find me on YouTube if you can, and subscribe.

[00:43:01] Ralph: we'll leave links in the show notes and we'll definitely have you back for more. Appreciate you coming on for Perpetual Traffic. I think just the framework alone, if you're selling courses, if you're doing webinars, if you're doing any of this, go back and listen to that on half speed or at least two or three or four times through, absolute gold.

[00:43:18] Ralph: So, thank you so much for coming on Perpetual Traffic this week. You guys gonna plug, driven here for, our friend Perry

[00:43:25] Jason: Oh yeah, if you're, if you're a low to mid seven figure business or higher, right? Kasum and I and Perry Belcher, we got a mastermind. I think it's $25,000 a year. We meet four times. We do these zoom zoom calls every Wednesday. That cost was talking about earlier. hit us up@drivenmastermind.com if you want to apply.

[00:43:44] Ralph: Very cool. That's the first time anyone's ever actually set the price of a mastermind on this show, so. Totally in line with everything we just talked about for the last half hour. So thank you Jason for coming on. Like I said, for all the show notes and everything that we discussed, head on over to perpetual traffic.com.

[00:44:02] Ralph: Make sure that you, subscribe and leave a rating wherever you listen to the podcast and let us know what we can do better over@perpetualtraffic.com slash better. Follow me over on LinkedIn and Casa Casa Muslim on Twitter. I said, go back to and listen to previous episodes. We're gonna leave a lot of links in the show notes here.

[00:44:20] Ralph: And make sure you buy Jason's book and subscribe to his YouTube channel and his TikTok. I get his updates every single day. They're amazing. on behalf of my awesome co-host, Casa Osma

[00:44:30] Kasim: Bruce.

[00:44:31] Ralph: Till next show, see ya