How Jacob Cox of Green Graphene is Harnessing the Passive Power of Pedestrians To Produce Electricity

[00:00:02] Hector: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the, how to scale a business podcast. My name is Hector Santia Esteban, and I am your host. Our special guest today is Mr. Jacob Kelly. And we're going to talk today about, I mean, I don't get to talk about it often on this show, at least, but it's, It's my love interest, if you will, in the entrepreneurship world and that sort of media content and marketing.

[00:00:22] Hector: So Jacob, thank you for indulging me in today's conversation.

[00:00:27] Jacob: Of course. Happy to be here, man. Thank you for having me.

[00:00:30] Hector: So catch us up on on your story and how you sort of got here. because I think, it's sort of relevant in regards to, There's always that person that's asking like, well, why the fuck should I listen to this person? what I love about you is you've kind of been out there slamming the hammer, you know, chopping the wood, doing the work if you will yourself.

[00:00:48] Hector: And so, yeah, share a little bit about your background.

[00:00:50] Jacob: Yeah. So I'll try and make this as quick as I possibly can. Started my career in marketing, working in professional sports. Did that for three years. sometime in that three year period, I started my first podcast, which was called my social life where I interviewed successful YouTubers and content creators.

[00:01:03] Jacob: That show grew to become one of the top 3 percent biggest podcasts in the world. I also launched a podcast for the football team I was working for that became the number one football podcast in Canada upon lunch. After that, I started my own marketing agency. , agency was glorified freelancing. It was just me, but I had 100 percent client referral rate.

[00:01:20] Jacob: Every single client I signed was through referral. and I was able to pull myself entirely through that. So that was through a mix of things, whether it be content creation, consulting, podcast editing, through that joined one of my clients full time as influencer marketing manager, for a browser extension, we grew that browser extension from zero to 200, 000 users in a single year, primarily through influencer marketing through that.

[00:01:41] Jacob: Along that timeline as well, I also started working with the company in L. A. called Creator Now, which was an educational platform for YouTubers and content creators. I was hosting a new IP for them and then recently where I am today, I'm back in kind of the marketing world as a freelancer. I'm doing some content creation stuff for a few different clients, and I also have my own podcast now or a new podcast, I should say, called Art Well, where I study famous artists to try and understand what it means to make great art.

[00:02:08] Hector: So I've got a couple of quick questions in Canada is football like football or is football like soccer?

[00:02:14] Jacob: no, no. Football is like football. So we have the Canadian football league. And so, um,

[00:02:19] Hector: famously, you know, known for giving us, I think Doug Flutie and, Kurt Warner, if I'm not mistaken. at least down here, yesterday we just had the Dodgers win the world series. It's just interesting. The, the way that sports, what it does in society and how marketing is such a big thing in that.

[00:02:36] Hector: Right. I mean, there's the famous, why is his name escaping me? The guy who, uh, went over and bought the team over in Europe and made a Netflix,

[00:02:43] Jacob: Oh, Ryan Reynolds.

[00:02:45] Hector: Reynolds. Right. it's like, there's all these kinds of now classic examples of how, people have leveraged sports to do some really cool things in business and not only not treating it like necessarily like a, like just a sports team, but really treating it like a business.

[00:03:00] Jacob: Absolutely. Even like looking at F1, right. And like how they've completely grown their, viewership, especially in like the U S through a Netflix show, similar to the church to wreck some like that, I know they have their show, I think on prime. but yeah, it's cool to see.

[00:03:13] Hector: Yeah. since you might share some similar, enthusiasm, you know, my idols have always been people like, Walt Disney or Vince McMahon or Ted Turner or, more contemporaneously. Ooh, that one came from the muse, but, , you're someone like Dana White, right? Where they're able to leverage what you said, like I P they're able to leverage I P and create something Today, that's oftentimes distributed through media or content, stuff like that. So, more and more businesses are waking up to it. And if you can, what I tell a lot of people as I'm kind of getting into the podcast space, like if you can, pair media and you have a good product, like that's the one to punch for most of history, people have only had one or the other.

[00:03:56] Hector: You either had a good product, so you had to pay for the media, or you had the media, so people would pay for the product. But now the fact that you can have both, it really allows people to, you know, capture all of that margin and profit.

[00:04:06] Jacob: No, absolutely. Yeah.

[00:04:08] Hector: So take me into, now you've put it all together.

[00:04:11] Hector: When you look in, To a lot of businesses, or you see a lot of businesses. What are the areas of opportunity that you see you can bring? Or like, where does your brain go when someone comes to you and they're, they're telling you their problems. often are like, well, you can actually solve that through this, this and this.

[00:04:28] Hector: Are there sort of common solutions that you find yourself going to with some of the businesses that you're working with?

[00:04:33] Jacob: No, because every single business I work with, it tends to be like a very different use case. don't, I, truthfully right now, it's just two clients that I'm working with at the moment. One is newsletter writing and then a newsletter and a little bit of conversion stuff. And the other one is short form video.

[00:04:48] Jacob: so I just work with those two clients. So it's two completely different needs as to what both of them are looking for. but in a more general sense, I would say like one thing for businesses is like how to actually make content for the internet. what is popular right now? How do you stay on top of those trends?

[00:05:02] Jacob: is one thing that it's a little bit more general, kind of like esoteric and not, not easy to like quantify.

[00:05:07] Hector: are there examples of that that you can give, can you think of whether it's classic examples, or more recent examples of businesses who have hopped on a trend, if you will, and utilize and leverage that to revenue or profit.

[00:05:19] Jacob: guess, I don't know. So, if I said trans, I apologize. I don't know if trend is the right word. So I don't necessarily know if following trends is the way to build a genuine community. You know what I mean? Like you might get a lot of attention, a lot of viewership really quickly off of that. But if it's not an audience you're actually trying to get in front of, it doesn't matter.

[00:05:35] Jacob: it's kind of jumping off of that. Like I have a friend of mine, Hayden Cashin, who has a company, he has his own marketing agency, but he also has a marketing certificate program that he created called Modern Marketing. , and for him, I was talking with him on point. He was like, people sometimes like to dunk on, Him online because he has a marketing account on TikTok with 150, 000 followers, but one of his latest videos only got 2000 views.

[00:05:55] Jacob: And he's like, I don't care how many people my content gets in front of, as long as it gets in front of the right people. if that's 2000 people, but four of them converted like a 4, a month out of a video that only got. Two, three thousand views. It's like for him, it's not about like volume of con or like viewership.

[00:06:11] Jacob: It's the right audience. so I don't know if I'm quite answering your question,

[00:06:14] Jacob: but that was

[00:06:14] Hector: I think that's a good point to make because you know, we have a podcast agency and there's a number of times where we're trying to convince, we're trying to convince people with the numbers you know, show this many downloads and this, whatever. When I think the best example is I was on a call yesterday with a client.

[00:06:31] Hector: He's like, yeah, I was talking to a guy and he pays me, over six figures a year to coach him and he. told he told this client that he came directly from listening to the podcast. So it's like, no matter how many downloads it gotten, what price tag would you put on, 100, 000 in revenue?

[00:06:49] Hector: Like it's evident there in terms of its return. So too many businesses, I think it caught up in, Those metrics that you're talking about, and they, they look at the vanity numbers and they go, it's not working. And it's like, well, what are we actually trying to get to?

[00:07:02] Jacob: And with podcasting specifically, like it's obviously depend on the nature of your show. Like if it's a solo podcast, this changes the conversation. But if you're doing an interview show like this, you can get value out of this show with zero downloads, right? Like I have done podcasts for a company I worked for where It was a sales tool, right?

[00:07:21] Jacob: Like when you reach out to some, I said, this works more in B2B than B2C, but like if you're reaching out someone with a cold email offer to try and sell them on your product, like no one really, no one has time. No one cares. Very few people are going to read that. But if you read out with a cold pitch, asking someone to come on your podcast and talk about themselves for 30 to 45 minutes.

[00:07:37] Jacob: They're going to do that. And then in that interview, you can then interview them about all of the pain points that they have in their business that your product just happens to solve. And now you've built a relationship with someone, you know, what their pain points are. You have a product that solves those pain points.

[00:07:50] Jacob: And now there's like a more natural sell to them. It's like a warmer lead and you can use a podcast as a tool to do that. So even if nobody listens, you can use it as a vehicle to get in front of. Your audience or your target market.

[00:08:02] Hector: Yeah. You talked about some other things that you're doing, with newsletters and I think you said some conversion stuff. One thing we haven't talked about is like a newsletter, what that might be or what that might look like in terms of. I would imagine it's a system of written content, and a lot of people might be thinking that, oh, that's gone away or that's not, effective.

[00:08:19] Hector: So talk to us a little bit about that.

[00:08:21] Jacob: Yeah, I mean like newsletters are great because it's a direct access to your audience, right? they add you to your contacts and you can make as long as you make sure like in the beginning when you first reach out to them that you're not going to their spam and they add you to your contacts so they get your emails like that's a direct communication.

[00:08:33] Jacob: Like social media, you're at the whims of the algorithm. Podcasting is a little bit different because it's less algorithmically distributed content. Like it is more who you're subscribed to, who listens to your show. but social media is entirely dependent on how your content plays in the algorithm.

[00:08:46] Jacob: Email goes directly to those people. You have a direct contact. And I also like think too, that if you can convince someone to subscribe to your email newsletter to like welcome your emails every single week, like that's a better relationship than if your content is just being serviced to them. Through a discovery feed.

[00:09:01] Jacob: so I think newsletters is definitely not and this conversation around like, is email going away is like a conversation I used to have on my like social media podcast back 2018, 2019. Like this is a conversation that is just continually happening. I don't think it's going to go away, but email is still here.

[00:09:15] Jacob: Email is here to stay. I think there's some interesting stuff you can do with mobile as well. Right? Like text, basically email newsletter about texting, like having a text. Line with your community, is even more personal. I think the open rates on texting is like significantly higher than emails.

[00:09:28] Jacob: but yeah, definitely not going away anytime soon. Definitely worth your time to build an email list.

[00:09:33] Hector: Yeah. And written word. maybe as I'm saying it, maybe it makes it more crowded, but Writing has actually never been easier. Used to be the hardest thing, at least for me, was writing something that someone would actually want to read. But now with a lot of the AI tools, you can get there a lot quicker.

[00:09:48] Hector: I'm not saying, you know, I would never just recommend someone just copy and paste, out of chat GBT, but you can get. A lot of stuff on paper and you can go in and adjust it in there, so at least the largest excuse that people had, or at least the one that was in my head was like, I'm not a good writer.

[00:10:03] Hector: I don't have the time. Those have all gone away. with some of the technology is assuming that you're willing to learn and implement some of the stuff.

[00:10:10] Jacob: Yeah. And like a great way, like to your point, like you don't want to copy and paste it. Like I'm not, I'm not the most versed in SEO. My partner is, she has her own marketing agency as well. And What she was saying is like Google or certain search engines are able to tell when blog posts or stuff like this.

[00:10:25] Jacob: I think this is getting away from newsletters a little bit, like if we're blogging that Intel when it's written by AI and that lowers your ranking SEO. So you don't actually want to let AI write the entire article, but a great thing you can do, I think, especially like to help figure like, cause it's two points hard to write sometimes like, what do I actually think?

[00:10:44] Jacob: How do I structure this? What you can do is you can ask Chat GPT to interview you about a subject you're an expert on, and then I just find like by changing the form a little bit from I need to write an article to I'm doing this like text interview, it allows you to change the environment. So you're able to kind of, I find right a little bit more easily.

[00:11:02] Jacob: and then you can take all of your answers and format those into a newsletter, or I don't do that for the news that I write, but like this is something I've done for other things. Yeah, whether a newsletter blog post, like that's a great way to kind of change the dynamic of how you're writing the article using AI.

[00:11:16] Hector: For sure. And even with the mobile app now, you know, you can talk to it and it'll talk back to you. It's a, it's a really cool experience. we were asking my kids to, it was helping us tune a guitar. It was helping us spell things. It was, really cool. So, when we get back from break, Jacob, I'm curious When you look back, you've done a lot of different things for a lot of different people.

[00:11:36] Hector: And I think that there are some things that are, timeless, you know, in terms of marketing and media. And then there are, you know, more tactics that are a little bit more, relevant to the time if you will. And I want to get your insights on both of those. And so we're gonna get into that right after this quick break.

[00:11:53] Hector: Hey y'all. Today's episode is brought to you by Amplify Media and we are a podcast and content production company. Well, we'd like to think of ourselves as thought leader accelerators because chances are you're probably, if you're listening to this, you have a mission, a message, a passion, a product, something that you're trying to get out to the world, but you might not have the time, the team, or the tech skills to be able to do it.

[00:12:09] Hector: Well, if that's the case, we can help go to amplify media. com. That's a M P L a F Y media. com. You can also check the show notes for the link. And with that, let's get back to Jacob.

[00:12:21] Hector: So. Jacob, before the breakout, I mentioned, strategies and tactics, right? Is loosely what you would say. And, you've been in the marketing sort of space for a number of years now doing lots of different things. And what I love about getting the chance to talk to those sorts of people who have worked with different types of companies and different industries is that you're sort of forced to bring what you've learned and adapt it to this new playground, this new sandbox, if you will.

[00:12:47] Hector: And the more and the farther that you jump, think, some of the times the more creative that you have to get in integrating those things. And so some of those solutions that come from some of that is oftentimes some of the things that, couldn't. Have been created without sort of that experience.

[00:13:02] Hector: So when you think about, all of the experiences that you had, are there any sort of strategies, principles, frameworks, sort of higher level things that you think are probably more evergreen or timeless that you've sort of put into your, operating system when it comes to marketing, media growth sort of stuff?

[00:13:23] Jacob: I wouldn't necessarily say like repeatable actions, but like I think repeatable questions are important, who is my audience actually? What does my audience care about? And what is the problem that they are facing that my product can solve? no one wants to hear about your product.

[00:13:37] Jacob: They want to hear what the solution you can provide them. And I think too. So I guess from that is how can we tell that story really well? Like, I think that's part of anything. That's a thing. That's not like something I can tell you, like, just do these three things and you're gonna be able to tell a great story like that.

[00:13:50] Jacob: I think just comes from putting in the reps and doing the work to make content and tell stories online. or even offline to really presentation sales pages like that. A lot of that comes down to storytelling.

[00:14:01] Hector: thing about that is that you mentioned telling a story and I think a good distinction is, to. not tell it to somebody. And It's not just about dictating it to somebody.

[00:14:11] Hector: Right. A lot of people, will say, like, I told them that. And it's like, okay, did they hear it? Did they understand it? If they understand it? did they get it? Did they believe it? There's so many levels of let's call it belief, that you need to get someone through. That , what's great about as a story is that it pierces all the way through all of those levels.

[00:14:29] Hector: You know, a good story can get someone past all of those gates of belief so that they come in going. Yeah, that product totally makes sense for what, the problem and the solution that I'm looking to have and the solution that I'm looking for.

[00:14:41] Jacob: exactly. Like people often buy emotionally, right? And that's not necessarily a bad thing, but like just trying to sell someone with the facts of your product isn't always enough. Um, and so you just kind of like paint that picture for them of what their life could look like if they work with your podcast agency and what the benefits of that come and how their life will change as a result of that.

[00:14:59] Jacob: Not just like how many downloads you're going to get, how much content we're going to create for you every single week. Like it, It's more than that. It's not just facts. it's an emotional thing as well.

[00:15:09] Hector: Yeah. it's a big shift perhaps for businesses that are used to having that conversation with that person there, because in the same way that me and you can sort of bounce and, vibe off of each other, when you're in a sales conversation with somebody, you can sort of either into it.

[00:15:30] Hector: Or get those objections or get those answers to whatever it is, those questions are, but when you're creating media, you have to be, you know, okay, so let's actually, maybe this is a good question. What have you found is. The way for someone to, you know, when you say, what do our audience to want to hear?

[00:15:49] Hector: What the methodologies in which if someone is saying, you know, I don't know, how might they find those answers or how have you found those answers?

[00:15:58] Jacob: Trying to think about how to answer this properly. I think you should at least have an idea of who your product is for. Because if you don't have an idea of who your product is for, why are you making it in the first place? I think for me, like I often feel like it's really hard to sell a product you don't believe in.

[00:16:11] Jacob: It's hard to sell. It's even harder to sell if you don't know who you're selling to. . And so I think for me, it's like, if you're at a place where it's like, I don't know who wants my product. And like, maybe that comes from You thought you knew who your product was for. You've done some testing. It turns out that's not the case.

[00:16:27] Jacob: it really is like case by case. It's hard to give like a broad strokes. If you do have customers talk to those customers, right? I think there's no better place to get feedback about your product than from the people who actually use your product. Try to see what commonalities those people have. In common, but a bit of a tough question to answer because like it's really dependent on when you say you don't know your customer, what is the case in which you don't know them?

[00:16:50] Hector: well, I guess. better question is, know, the audience, but a lot of times the content that they're putting out. And the message that they're putting out is not necessarily resonating with who their audience is.

[00:17:02] Hector: they're kind of throwing up their hands because they're saying it's not working. You know, I've seen that so many times where they go, it's not, it's not working. and I look at what content they're putting out. And it's like, well, they're either talking too much about their product and it's all product focused or, you know, that's usually what it is.

[00:17:17] Hector: And so in that instance where they're going, well, I know who my customer is, but I don't know what type of content they want. Are there ways that you found to find those sorts of answers?

[00:17:28] Jacob: Yeah. Keep testing and make changes. You know what I mean? Like it's not working. And then continually doing the thing that's not working is never going to start working. And so the way to get around that is to just make changes. It doesn't have to be wholesale changes either, right? Like it can be gradual changes.

[00:17:44] Jacob: Over time, you know, whether it be like, so for context, that one of the newsletter I work for is like a social media specific newsletter. and we were talking about this, me and the founder just yesterday. And it's like, you don't have to, Make again an entire change to your whole content plan, but maybe a small tweak continually will get you to a place where your content starts to perform.

[00:18:01] Jacob: You start to figure out what your audience likes, but I think like the real answer is there's nothing I can say to you. That's going to help you figure out what your audience wants more than just running tests until you start to get feedback of, oh, this actually works.

[00:18:13] Hector: Yeah.

[00:18:13] Jacob: no one wants to hear that because Testing like that requires work, Like you don't want to have to continually make changes and you want to just have your month long content calendar and stick to it. But that doesn't work, especially where we're social media moves so quickly, but like you need to be able to adapt to the feedback you're getting feedback being a loose term here.

[00:18:32] Jacob: But like the engagement you're getting on your post, the watch time you're getting like all of that is feedback that you can take to understand if your audience actually likes it or not and how to make improvements to that content.

[00:18:43] Hector: And I think you also have to be willing to, give up what you think that answer is and just listen to the answer. I was talking to a friend the other day and we were going through their content. He's like, Oh yeah, I had this one video that did like literally a hundred X better than any other video he's ever put.

[00:19:00] Hector: That one video has amassed more views than all of his other videos combined. and he goes, but it was just this stupid thing. And I go, well, why don't you try that stupid thing? Like again, and he's like, but it's a stupid thing. And I'm like, but they liked it. And it was like, it wasn't totally irrelevant.

[00:19:15] Hector: It was just to him. It was a small part of the process. It was done, I'll give a little more context for people who are like, what the hell are you talking about? He had a, he's a brilliant Potter. So he makes some great, wonderful ceramics. And so, his page is all about the pottery and, what he was doing is that his, he was telling his story and he was putting his face on the, video and, talking into the camera and his most popular video was.

[00:19:42] Hector: he said, he was just wrapping some pine cones in, tape or something. Like it was something so obscure, but it was like an initial part of the process. And it went viral. And I was like, well, I don't know. Did you try like different sort of pine cones? Or did you do like a different part of the process the same way?

[00:19:55] Hector: And for some reason, he. it got stuck in his head that this was dumb and stupid. And for some reason, it, wasn't worth trying again. , and I imagine that happening so many other ways both at a micro and a macro level where people going, this is stupid, instead of just doing it again and seeing what happened,

[00:20:13] Jacob: This is a little bit different, but I feel like it connects. So the way I structure my current podcast is called our, well, I do deep dives into famous art and artists, and then I share everything I learned. And so on my third season, I studied the video game franchise, God of War. And the director of one of the God of War games, his name is Corey Barlog.

[00:20:29] Jacob: And he talks about this concept of this idea, I guess, of concept testing versus user testing. And he says, he does not want to test his concept. This is what he wants to share in the world. But what he will test is how he's sharing that. So it's user testing, right? So like getting people to actually play his game and tell him, is it fun?

[00:20:48] Jacob: Did they get stuck? Where did they get stuck? Why did they get stuck? And then they can take all that information, figure out how can they change how they're presenting that game, how they're presenting that concept in a way that people do understand. And that is fun. He's not going to ask you like, should I make this character's shirt blue or red?

[00:21:02] Jacob: Like that's completely subjective and not what he's looking for. But. But he's looking to see is the way he's delivering his concept is the way he's delivering his message effective for his audience. So when you're taking feedback and you're making changes to your content, you don't want to change what you're saying, that's important. Your message is your message. Don't change what your message is, what you believe in to try and like pander to an audience. But change how you're saying it so that it is presented in a way that the audience is actually able to receive that message.

[00:21:29] Hector: yes, do that. And, talk about the show. I'm

[00:21:36] Hector: me the name of the show again. for people who missed it,

[00:21:38] Jacob: It's art. Well, A R T W E L L.

[00:21:41] Hector: And the concept, because you said it really well, is what do you do? You study.

[00:21:45] Jacob: I study famous art and artists to try and understand what it means to make great art. So I'll study someone very in depth. Like the season I'm working on right now, I watched 13 films, three documentaries, read two books, and listened to 236 interviews of the one person.

[00:21:56] Hector: So what else, given what we've talked about sort of today, we've gone all over, but everywhere that I think we needed to go, are there other themes or other things, whether it's from this most recent season or even previous seasons that, seem relevant that might be, you know, cool tidbits or cool stories from some of that research that you've done?

[00:22:12] Jacob: I guess like one thing I could say thinking about this is not something I learned from one of the seasons, but it's something I've learned through doing the show is this distinction between art and media to me, which I think is a really important conversation that needs to be had, especially because I spent so much time in the YouTube world and the essay I wrote about this idea was called YouTube is an art, like it's not art.

[00:22:32] Jacob: I also have to clarify that because I think a lot of people that's not me saying that people on YouTube aren't artists, but I think that the way YouTube as a platform functions is as media. So for me, art monetizes off of intention. Like someone makes the decision to go and pay money to read this specific book.

[00:22:49] Jacob: They go to the theater and they pay money to watch this specific movie. I think streaming Is kind of a middle ground, but leans more towards art because if the quality of the product is not good, I will cancel my subscription and you will stop getting money from me. So you have to continually deliver me a high quality product.

[00:23:03] Jacob: Media on the other hand is monetizes off of attention. So the more people that just see my thing, the more ads I can serve, the more money I make, like that is how media monetizes and what you do to capture someone's intention and what you do to make something high quality that is deemed like great art are two completely different things.

[00:23:20] Jacob: And so I think it's really important for you as this is more of an individual than a business lesson, like to understand what it is that you're creating. Are you creating media? Are you creating art? And how does that Impact what you're making because I think part of the problem with the YouTube world is like you have some of these like artists type people trying to play a media game and there's a disconnect there.

[00:23:39] Jacob: so that's one of the things I've been thinking about a lot. I wrote in a Santa like I said, but, it's one of the lessons I was trying to go through this list, but it was like 119 things since I was like getting lost and let's trying to find pull something quickly. But that's something that's been on my mind lately.

[00:23:50] Hector: Yeah, this was a great distinction. bringing it back a little bit for businesses, which do they fall into? Because when I think about, I'm like, wow, if we're trying to capture someone's intention, which you said, through their dollars and their purchase.

[00:24:04] Hector: Okay. Or are we trying to capture as many people's attention to potentially become leads? maybe it's a case by case sort of basis. How do you look at that? A business is media all day long in my, in my point of view, I think, I think you're playing, especially you're playing a social media game or like social media works off of attention, right? So you're more so not like you're playing with inside that media box of, I need to do these things. He has many people to see my posts so that can get them into the funnel.

[00:24:31] Jacob: I think it's a little bit different. I think, I look at it as media though, not art.

[00:24:35] Hector: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:36] Hector: Jake, this has been an awesome conversation, both just because I get selfishly enthusiastic about some of these things.

[00:24:43] Hector: And then I think it's important for business owners to hear this because it's not going away. And, maybe I have some self interest in saying that, but I don't think that this. Momentum that we see when it comes to businesses being media companies and businesses owning their own media. I don't think that that is going to go away. I think that as technology improves as we move towards even more of a decentralized sort of world, I think that it's going to be more and more important for businesses to be able to have their own media so that they can have an audience to sell to write that they're not reliant on these platforms or any other sources set attention.

[00:25:22] Jacob: A hundred percent. I think on this idea of like media, you want to capture attention. What often doesn't capture people's attention is like kind of a theme we've talked about throughout is like just talking about your product and all the great things you do. that doesn't get people's attention. And so I think with this idea of like, you need to be a media company is sometimes you don't need to make Media around your specific product or like maybe you make something that's adjacent to your product, but that your audience is really interested in that will then funnel back to the product.

[00:25:48] Jacob: I think being a media company doesn't just mean making media about my product. It's making media, making content that my Audience that my customers want to see, right? I

[00:26:00] Hector: Well, I'm going to go subscribe to the show, so can you give one more plug if there's any other places people might go and get more connected with you,

[00:26:08] Jacob: Yeah. The show is called art. Well, A R T W E L L. It's a season based show. So the first three seasons are up right now, a season four. I don't know when this podcast is launching, but hopefully my season four will be dropping sometime in November. , that is going to be on Georgia Miller, who is the creator and director behind every single Mad Max movie.

[00:26:23] Jacob: And I've got a bunch of interviews with his collaborators as part of that season as well coming. So I'm super excited for that. So go check out art. Well,

[00:26:29] Hector: we will link that up in the show notes. And yes, I believe by the time this comes out, you should be able to go and catch that, go listen. So thank you all for being here today. Appreciate it. We'll see on the next one. There you go.